You start to develop special "packages", specific firearms kitted out in specific ways with specific modifications for specific tasks, as you look at the firearm rules.

The P93 Praetor is unmatched as a very portable bullet hose, the Ares Crusader (properly fitted and loaded) can drop an entire room of guards, the Colt Government is a solid sidearm with an excellent clip-size, the Colt M23 is incredibly cheap and can be modified to be anything and everything it's user needs it to be, the Desert Strike can be modified to hit targets further than the character can see, the SPAS-22 is a hard-hitting door breaker, a Morrisey Elan can stealthily drop a troll, and a pair of Defiance EX Shockers can floor the first troll's brother.

It's all about learning what works best for what you need.

I'll do some digging when I get access to my books back - I have nothing in Dead Tree Format, and the manufacturer recently mailed my laptop back to me a second time, and I'm hoping it is actually fixed this time - but from the look of things, the HVBR will be my preferred boomstick for situations and characters lacking subtlety. Power and versatility. I'll have to see what I like in terms of pistols and machine pistols for backup.

And, of course, my understanding of how to most effectively arm drones and vehicles has grown immensely thanks to these threads. Yeah, this is gonna be fun.

I'm leaning towards one of these as my PCs next gun, but I'm not very happy with a clip of 12 when the weapon can only fire narrow bursts.

That's 4 shots, or 5 if you get an extended clip. Powerful shots, yes, but even so...

***

Does anyone else find the difference between a pistol with a burst fire mode and a machine pistol somewhat arbitary? To my mind, machine pistols should use the pistols skill, if the Thunderhawk does...

Incredibly arbitrary, yes. The way the firearms groups are broken up astonishes me. It gave me a little trouble at first, but eh. It'll do, until there's another edition with its own arbitrary delineation rationale that may or may not attempt to be superior to this one.

I find if you make stick-n-shock for shotguns only, and don't allow war, that each group has their purpose. Pistols is for small, concealable, legal guns, automatics are for the good guns, and longarms are the specialty weapons.

That still doesn't address the fact that some pistols with burst fire are in the pistols group, and some pistols with burst fire are in the Automatics group. Surely firing an FN 5-7c is MUCH more similar to firing a Ruger Thunderbolt than firing an Ares HVAR?

Any weapon that has no foregrip and so is used either in one hand or with both hands on the single grip, should use the pistols skill IMO.

It's a central problem of basically ALL roleplaying systems that skillsets or proficiencies have arbitrary divisions - just so that not everyone can do everything. If you don't like it, house rule it.

The other completely arbitrary thing is all that restricted/forbidden crap. I mean if corps (and I don't just mean AAAs) can get licenses for these weapons, then there must be fake licenses for them. And for instance, probably half the corpsec of Seattle has 227s, which come with a silencer out of the box. Basically if I don't want to think about what to give any given enemy grunt, I'll give him a 227. But that should be an F gun, right? (And I admit I don't know, because I just use DKs sheet to build opposition, and he only listed availability, not legality for weapons.) So what's the point of this?

If the whole point is just to force you to get a more elaborate fake SIN with MORE fake licenses, then...

I've never needed to use either. There are enough mods for recoil compensation you can put on weapons to negate all recoil you could incur.

EDIT:


Wait, what? You do know that: 1) There's a light pistol in the core book that has a 30 round clip. You also mentioned the Ares Crusader, who's 40 round clip is even better. 2) That's only a range of 1.65 kilometers - easily within sight.

The Fichetti Security is good, but the Colt Government is a heavy pistol and has better recoil compensation possibilities.

The Crusader is also good, but it's better modified to be a concealable bullet hose.

A rifle, properly modified and wielded by a character with the right qualities, can make shots beyond that range with little negative impact.

Except that the Current Record for a confirmed kill with a Modified Rifle (Hunting Rifle adapted Sniper Rifle, so a 7.62 Caliber Bullet) is considerably less than that, sitting at just under 1400 Meters (1375 meters I believe, but I may be off by a few meters or so, performed by an Army Sniper in Iraq). There are no rules in place for you to attempt a shot beyond Extreme Range in game, and often, you will be considerably closer than that due to lines of sight and effect.

And that's just a 7.62mm round. The .50 BMG Match Grade is well beyond even that. Although Canada no longer holds that record from what I've heard.

I've had characters attempt a shot from two miles. He missed, but that's beside the point

No you can't because that is the maximum range for the gun.

"They're firing 20mm caseless fletchette rounds at 300 meters. The effective lethal range is 200 meters."







-k

I want a 20mm caseless flechette firearm now. For duck hunting.

Hmm, for un-modded guns (i.e., "I need to stash some guns someplace." or "I need to pick up a gun when I get there" or "I need a gun that can't easily be traced to me") it's really hard to get past the Ares Viper Slivergun. Its integral (and merely restricted! yay!) silencer means that it's suitable for keeping under the radar. In addition, its 8P +5ap damage code means that even before burst fire it's 1P up on a conventional heavy pistol, assuming equal ballistic/impact armor (and impact is often less). Honestly, the only downside is the inability to use stick and shock... but you could just get a taser if you wanted.

Similar fun with legal silencers is had with the Ingram Smartgun X; for those who need an un-modded FA weapon.

My favorite "backup" firearm has got to be my pistol adept's Echiro Hatamoto II (with modded under-barrel Echiro Hatamoto II). This is the gun to pull out when the regular pistol just isn't getting through the armor. Shock lock rounds count as explosive rounds when you aren't using them to open doors! Also good for the lols when using gel rounds to knock over trolls (this is about the only pistol that will have a decent shot at it).

It's been kicked around a bit, but a Panther Assault Cannon with an Underbelly Panther Assault Cannon gives you a nice Over-Under Double-Barreled "Shotgun" for Troll Hillbillies.

Yeah, I don't think the underbarrel same gun mod is amazingly abusive. It's basically just a more expensive version of getting an extended clip. Only really useful for using different ammo types or for extra style points.

Technically, extended clip would be cheaper but not sure it can be applied to internal mags.

Seems silly that they didn't make the weapon double-barrelled in the first place.

****

Its also one of those oddities - why does it get 7P when the other "shotgun pistol" only gets 5P...

****

But thanks for the idea - probably won't use an over-and-under Hatamoto II, but might well stick one under the barrel of a slivergun, for those occasions when I can't do an armour-bypassing called shot.

Ha! Note that giving an underbarrel mod to a slivergun voids the warranty on one of the best parts about an awesome gun... that you can use it un-modded. Of course, if you don't mind using easily-recognizable weapons, then by all means, go nuts.


"Well officer, he was using a standard nickel-plated slivergun, but it had these built-up looking ebony grips, a blued finish flame pattern on the front half of the slide, oh! and it had what looked like a shotgun barrel machined onto the bottom of the gun in front of the trigger guard."

"So you think you'd recognize the weapon if you saw it again?"

"Hell, I'm thinking of having one made for myself... Why yes, I do have Ares corporate citizenship, why do you ask?"

If I'm pulling out the slivergun on a job, I don't intend to leave any witnesses

I certainly wouldn't allow a Hatamoto under a slivergun… it's bigger, facrissake. Also, I typically follow the rules: "This mod is generally only available for longarms, machine guns, and assault cannons." You're right that the cost, Conceal penalty, ammo and RC penalties, etc. make it a general non-abusive choice.

Both are heavy pistols, and no scale is given on the pics. Most of the pic of the Hamamoto seems to be furniture rather than mechanism.



That, however, is a valid argument. Of course, it voids the original Hamamoto/Hamamoto idea too.

I dunno anything about separating the 'real gun' from the 'furniture', but the Hatamoto is clearly big. It has a shoulder stock on there for scale… plus is has a shoulder stock. Theoretically that means it needs it, being a big ol' punch.

The illustration has a shoulder stock, the description says nothing about such a thing. So its clearly sold without one.

I haven't clicked on the link and I know exactly what movie that is. I AM THE LAW!

No, he's a poser who took off his helmet.

I second the Slivergun, +AP isn't so bad if the damage is high enough. And it actually cheats with the damage code, too, it should be at 7P/+4.

So it's really at +1.33 damage, but as was mentioned the stun track is usually at least one box shorter... unbeatable for a HPist. Attach some cheap mods for RC and you have an amazing gun.

(Now this was posted about a few hours too late, duh...)

One of my alltime favorites is the Fichetti Security 600 loaded with SnS. It's basically a taser with a 30 round clip.

If a taser has a wireless node, datajack, or skinlink connection, a cop looking for someone to fine/arrest are likely going to ask if it's smartlinked, since you MUST have some way to talk to a smartlink.

You plan on using full bursts? All the time? If not, smartlink is better.

Ease of spotting is usually a GM call. As a rule of thumb, reduce the concealability modifier by 4. This would make an SMG as easy to hide as a commlink or heavy pistol, while a rifle would be be on par with a medkit or a baseball bat.


I was just going with the shortened barrel and concealable holster. Errata or something changed the slivergun to 8P/+5 AP. It's still an amazing gun. Burst fire, integrated suppressor, decent clip size, and a good damage code to boot? In a heavy pistol-sized package? Sign me up.

The harness gives you SIX POINTS of recoil compensation, so it has its place. The cyberarm gyromount is useful if you want to use your weapon's mod slots for something other than recoil comp or you find yourself using a lot of unmodified weapons with burst fire. Sound suppressed burst fire is also much easier with a cyberarm gyromount.

One of my favorite guns for use with a gyromount is the Ares Slivergun, since it's got burst fire, sound suppression, and no recoil compensation on its own. A cyberarm gyromount largely fills the RC gap without resorting to a gas vent which would prevent the use of the sound suppressor.

While it is blatantly illegal, it is also difficult to notice outside of getting checked out by a cyberware scanner or combat.

Yeah, that's one awesome gun.

And in doing so they kept one mistake and added another...

Unless you allow Armor Piercing Flechette (from WAR!) ammo in the Slivergun, it's not very good; the Ruger Thunderbolt is generally a better weapon (with Ex-explosive, the thunderbolt is 7p/-2 and can fire only narrow, versus 8p/+5; 7 armor is worth about 2.33 DV). The slivergun does have the nice ability to fire wide burstfire that no other pistol gets; I could see it as a good choice for someone who wasn't very good with pistols and wanted the extra accuracy.

No other pistol?

Is that taking into account the usually lower Impact rating on armor?

How about as a good choice for somebody that likes to do called shots to avoid armour?

There's a very narrow range where called shots to avoid armor isn't a bad move. You should almost always call shots to increase DV, unless your target had such little armor that it doesn't really matter. If your target has, say, 6 armor, you could take -6 to hit for -11 armor (worth a bit less than 4 DV)... or -4 to hit for +4 DV.

I think it's an arbitrary restriction on the off-the shelf burst-fire pistols. Well... it's easy enough to mod any pistol to BF, but it's expensive nonetheless.




If you assume 2 less impact, and 1 fewer box (although an average human will have 10/10 boxes, average metas are quickly at 11/10), I would estimate things like this:

The Thunderbolt using Ex-Ex with a narrow burst is at 8P/-2, vs Ballistic, so effectively at 8.66P. Due to base damage (6P) and -2 AP you are probably doing physical damage (vs an armoured jacket with 5/3).

The Tbolt using Flechette is at 7P/+4 vs Impact, using narrow bursts 9P/+4. With the above considerations doing S damage (7P base vs an 3+4 Impact), this becomes 10S/+2, which equals 9.33S.

The Slivergun with a narrow burst is at 10P/+5 base. Due to the base damage of 8P and +5AP you are likely (hopefully) doing S damage, so the damage effectively becomes 11S/+3 (1 fewer box, 2 less impact), which is exactly 10S. If you roll too well, you lose that advantage, or you have to hope that your enemies have more armour.

For wide bursts the Sliver is at 8P/+5 with a def mod of -2, which is basically 8.66P/+5; Modified as above that's 9.66S/+3, which translates to about 8.66S.

What this ignores is the possibility of the narrow burst not hitting at all, or the wide burst getting too many hits to still deal S damage. But for the present case, this is the exact same damage as the Tbolt using Ex-Ex, and the narrow-burst Sliver is actually better.

Of course, this all hinges on the hope that the opponents are wearing enough impact armour that you won't be doing P damage, but are wearing even more Ballistic armour.

Do note that only the Slivergun is actually better than a regular gun using Ex-Ex, because its flechettes are actually +3/+6AP (for an effective +1DV), while regular flechettes are +2/+5AP, for an effective +0.33.

However, the Tbolt is the clearly better gun for every occasion where you don't need a silencer, only it's clip size is problematic. The narrow burst problem can be solved with a Full-auto mod, and it can get a ton of RC easily.

I think he's pointing out that people are only talking about BF pistols (me excluded). What happened to the Second Law of Running The Shadows? BF and FA are surefire (no pun intended) ways to not "Conserve Ammo"...

What? Who cares if you get too many hits. Flechettes are opposed by Impact armor, and do Physical Damage normally. More net hits equates to more damage overall.

Yes, but one of the quoted advantages of flechettes is that the +AP will more reliably make you do stun damage - and most "brute" type enemies have a shorter stun track. That one box less on the stun track equates to one full point of DV more.

So instead of being worse than Ex-Ex, they end up equal by default against armoured enemies.
+1/-1 (+1.33DV) vs +3/+5 (+1.33 DV)

And the sliver effectively does +4/+6, which equals +2 DV.

I'm Sorry, the quoted advantage that I use is that it will totally shred anything that it hits (especially UNARMORED TARGETS, who get no benefit of the +5 Armor Modification), for the most part. That is the advantage of a Flechette Gun. I don't think that I have ever seen eanyone tout the NON-LETHAL capabilities of the Flechette Gun.

Put standard ammo into the Slivergun.. 6P -0AP with Burstfire. *shrug*

+5 armor will give unarmored opponents 5 armor.

Slivergun can't use regular ammo. It's like the Honey Badger that way.

Sure it can. The write up doesn't specifically say it can only use Flichette ammo (like the Mossberg shotgun write up) and you can put flichette ammo into any other Pistol. Ergo.. can put standard ammo into the Ares Slivergun.

In internet speak.... lolwut

That's utterly ridiculous... but true, if you ignore fluff in favour of mechanics. Wow.

What's actually missing from the gear list is sliver ammo, since fluff wise its ammo only "counts as" flechette, it isn't *actually* flechette.

In the absense of that... it would appear to use normal ammo...?

No it does not. It boost Armor, IF YOU HAVE IT. Against Unarmored Skin, it adds nothing.

Here is a Quote:

Which makes flechette surprisingly good against spirits, which don't technically have armor, just Force*2 soak.