One of the funniest things I saw, off topic I admit, was an Indian development for the Bren Machine Gun that made it a belt-fed weapon rather than a magazine-feed. It just looked really, really weird, as the gunner's assistant had to hold the belt up in the air to keep it tight.

And then you get to buy a new hand.

Well, Wedge liked his new shoulder, you'll probably like your new hand better anyhow!

Tis in a weapon mount in a drone or vehicle Might mar the paint job a little..

Well, sure, when bolt-action was the thing, they came up with a way to automate the process. So was born the semi-automatic and automatic weapon. If you want 250 rounds of continuous fire, you need to use a weapon designed to fire continuously. It's a lot cheaper and easier than trying to modify a weapon that is a single-shot or small magazine design to handle it. Safer, too.

It might like the new paint job better.

And the rules as written say that you can fit up to a LMG into a weapon mount. So to extend our sillyness your going to put an Ingrim LMG on a Lockheed Optic-X small drone huh?

Which is where common sense comes in. For the Optic -X, you use an SMG with Expanded Clip (50 Rounds), or an MGL-6 Grenade Launcher (Pistol Sized)... More than enough.

For SR3 (R3 136), a weapon not designed specifically as a vehicle weapon requires a conversion kit for use in a vehicle turret or on a fixed mount. I always figgered this took care of the "belt feed" question since a belt feed doesn't necessarily have to have a cloth or metal belt; it can also be a sort of conveyor system like that used on an A-10 that just gets the ammo to where it needs to be.

Was the conversion kit ditched in SR4?

But that is not the rule as written. Common sense says I can make a 250 round large capacity clip and connect it to that SMG or MP.

No. No it doesn't.

Putting 250 bullets in a magazine (I don't care what the game calls it) and having them smoothly fed into an unmodified SMG or MP at an appropriate speed strikes me as a non-trivial engineering problem.

The largest capacity I'm aware of is the 33 round magazines for Glocks (made famous in the shooting of U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords). Building a 250 round magazine is going to require a good chunk of prototyping and testing, and that's assuming the gun can fire off 250 rounds in a row without issues such as overheating, jamming, etc. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN37kkiMMAc )

cursed double posting...

Considering creations like the 100-round drum magazine for the old Thompson M1921, and the new modern Beta C-Mags for STANAG 4179 compatible Assault Rifles (If they work, reliability appears to be debatable I hear.).

Working on a larger magazine wouldn't be that too hard an issue. And you wouldn't need to strengthen the magazine well like you would for the actual mod in Arsenal in order to handle the weight as that would be held by the Drone/Vehicle itself. ... Possibilities.

Seriously I think trying to argue with common sense, against bad RAW or anything like that will just produce more problems.

Personally:

If you start arguing that bad RAW should be ignored, well... there's so MUCH of that.

If you say things don't work as they should - even by accepted RAW, well... you've just opened a can of worms.

And once I'm there then I can basically ignore all the little stupid restrictions in Arsenal, write my own firearm design rules back into the game, etc. Because basically, you actually CAN do anything, it just might get expensive or have problems.

So I can mod any firearms any way I like - I can very easily rework (=exchange) the barrel of the Sporter to allow machinegun usage, make a new receiver, add a loading mechanism, etc. and basically build my own HMG, simply using sport rifle ammo.

Fact of the matter is: SR rules are simply a convention, and as such, I have to house-rule everything that I don't want in that convention. It certainly doesn't make sense for the "magical" ammo bins to add a belt feed, however, it's most certainly not impossible to do so, given a few machining tools, a workshop and maybe a desktop forge. That fact that said mod doesn't exist in the book is, once again, stupid RAW and deserves to be ignored.

Or I can just shut up and read the RAW as RAW and not worry, as long as it doesn't destroy my suspension of disbelief. In SR, guns don't get hot. They don't cook off. They don't get barrel wear (as long as I don't glitch), etc. So I can very well make a machingun out of my sporter- or indeed out of a pistol, even a revolver.

And as long as that works at my table, that's fine. Tymeaus, what you are advocating is selectively reading the RAW to your own liking. What I am advocating is doing just the same thing (except to my liking). You ignore stupid stuff, I ignore stupid stuff (or at least I'd like to), such as all those restrictions on what mods go in what guns. Or that certain guns "can't ever be modded", have inexchangable parts, etc.

Meh, this post is a mess, but so what, I'm replying to a double standard with a double standard.

Actually, the Calico M960 SMG has a cylindrical helical feed magazine of 50 or 100 9mm Parabellum rounds. They used to do a pistol version, M950 IIRC, same basic mechanism, shorter barrel. They do .22 pistols and rifles with similar technology.

Not that its overly relevant, just putting it out there.

M960 with the dual clip mod, 200 rounds right there, can you fit extended mags too? That's 250...

Only in the USA could a firearm have the "Short" magazine hold 50-rounds and still be called a "Pistol".

EDIT: They're back in business, apparently, BTW.

Apparently, I need to clarify.

I don't have a problem if a GM allows 5000 round "clips". But don't call it "common sense". Call it what it is, a houserule that works for your table.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4ZivnRZG5Q is my new hero. 100 rounds in a glock using a double drum magazine.

Looks like the 9mm(?) version of the Beta C-Mag.

And all of this for a 200 nuyen vehicle modification! Wow!


The Ammo Bin is the one providing the magic ammo-feed technology, not the turret. It only costs 200 nuyen.

If you flip over to the turret rules, it SPECIFICALLY states that only belt-fed weapons get the 250 ammo capacity upgrade.

So, either you have

a) Magic super-adaptable "loads belts into ANYTHING that takes bullets" ammo bins that conflict with the Turret rules,

or

B) the "250 rounds of ammunition, belt feed" line in the Ammo Bin description is meant to say it just adds 250 rounds of belted ammunition, that the Ammo Bin is merely a box to hold the ammo belt, and the description was merely worded badly.



Permissiveness or Restrictiveness has nothing to do with it.

It is not a good idea to assume others game the way you do, so when discussing rules, the base assumption should be that the discussion is about the rules as written, not any custom house rules you might come up with.

If you are heading into "in my game we do things this way" land, the onus is on you to specify as such.



The Arachne I mentioned is as described even smaller than the Optic-X, and it specifically comments that often the weapons that are mounted on it are larger than the drone itself. So I don't see a problem.



-k

So what about favorite mods, beside the inevitable recoil compensation?

I once made a Ruger Super Warhawk with Custom Look 2 - the ultimate scary gun, mostly intended just to threaten people with.

I also like the Cybersafety mob/implant from Augmentation, as an alternative for the rather boring Skinlink. Combine with Trigger Removal and Electronic Firing for a gun that only you can use - and with no trigger, it looks very strange in a Mexican Standoff.

Which Modification are you referring to exactly. Because I can guarantee you , it does not actually exist.

And RAW says I can put a LMG on a small drone.

Weird... I am not selectively reading the RAW on Modifications. I am reading the RAW and applying it as written. You cannot add a 250 round magazine to a pistol. Case Closed. I do not actually ignore the stupid stuff (Emotitoys notwithstanding). Most of it is there for balance (or something). Show me a rule where you can just make any modification willy nilly (other than the right to house-rule at any table) and I will quit commenting on this. Fact is, there is no rule for such equipment in the game, anywhere.

Yes, you can indeed house-rule anything you like, but it is not the Rules from the book. Not arguing your house rule. I am arguing that the modifications being talked about DO NOT EXIST in the game.

I find it funny that you believe that certain things do not exist [b](In SR, guns don't get hot. They don't cook off. They don't get barrel wear (as long as I don't glitch), etc.)[/b], but they do, there is just no RULE for them. If you do not use such things (Fluff, Flavor, or whatever else you may call it), that is not my issue. Guns get hot when you fire rounds through them. Fire too many, and you melt a barrel. Just because there are no rules for them does not mean that it does not happen.

No worries though. To each his own.

As I said above, see the Arachne.

Yes, it ends up looking like a gun with legs. So?

And you know there's a weapon mod that lets a gun fly around like a bumblebee, right?



-k

"Hello, I'm a Walking Gunbot, and you're a stranger." *BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM*

There is? See, this is the kind of stuff I want to know about.

The Arachne drone is from WAR. It's more or less a set of spider legs you attach to any weapon of up to LMG size, comes with a drone brain and Gecko Tips so if can crawl around on it's own, even on walls and ceilings, and shoot things for it's master. Or you can possibly just pick up the gun and use it normally.

The Propulsion System weapon mod from Arsenal requires the Pilot Upgrade mod and a smartlink equipped weapon. There are three versions, "limping" which lets the weapon move around slowly, "crawling" which lets it walk around like any other walking drone, and "flying" which gives it limited flight capacity. The Limping and Crawling versions are pretty much superseded by the Arachne drone these days though.

[EDIT]The Flying mod, as Miri helpfully points out, can be duplicated by attaching the weapon to an Optic-X from the core book. So there really is no good reason to use the Propulsion System mod anymore.




-k

Indeed, why go through all the trouble of giving the weapon mobility mods when the Arachne Drone is a better deal all around.

Spider-gun, Spider-gun,
Has a beltfeed of spider fun
Pops a burst, any size,
Catches targets just like flies
Look Out!
Here comes the Spider-gun!







-k

Wasn't it you who said to ignore stupid RAW? I am merely using normal grammar to interpret the rules text, and not interpreting stuff into it which isn't there. It says "adds 250 rounds capacity, belt feed, or...", with a clearly additive connotation on the comma. If they had intended otherwise, they should have written "adds 250 rounds to a belt fed weapon, or", which is just as long. Commas aren't used in the way you interpret that quote.

So, really, the pricing might be wrong, it might not make sense at all, but that sure is what it says.



Well, yes, which is why I find it easy to house-rule them in.



If there is no mechanical rule to make these things happen, then it's all in my good will to let them happen. If I blow 10 mags on full-auto through a subgun and the GM then says "your weapon is hot enough to melt", I migth say, "sure enough, but I reload and let fly again", because, as long as I don't glitch, nothing is going to happen. Of course, should I (critically) glitch, it's within the realm of possibility that the gun turns to mush, but that could have happened on the first round fired as well.

Now you can of course dislike that, and I'm inclined to agree that, yes, guns (IRL) DO get very hot. But unless you make a bullet counter that adds up heat like in Battletech or something, then heat isn't a GAME issue, and everyone is free to completely ignore it.

I think this is one of the main problems people have with SR: The game world is far too similar to the real world, so we think things should work the way they do in the real world. However, very often if we really want things to be like that, we actually have to house-rule them, or else the strange mechanics the authors thought up take effect. The authors just forgot to mention that.

Well, anyway, we aren't getting anywhere anymore, so I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

In general, if you're talking about a house rule, be specific that you are.

Most folks on the forums will be assuming you're talking about the books, which is perfectly reasonable, as they provide a common point of reference.




-k

Reminds me of this video.

As for weapons/mods, I find that tasers a LOT. Always have one around with a laser sight (don't smartlink) and you'll have a totally street legal piece that does 8 stun damage.

-For any actual firearm, I smartlink it if at all possible, usually go for a top-mount.

-Some people dislike longarms, but they have their place. Sporting rifles make great sniping weapons that won't automatically get you arrested if you are caught with one and do nearly as much damage. Internal silencers, slings, and chameleon coating are all great here. Easy breakdown allows you to keep one in a suitcase, ready to go in 2.5-4 initiative passes. (depends on breakdown type and loading mechanism) Note that easy breakdown is still not forbidden.

-Shotguns are hard to hide (unless, again, you use easy breakdown), but they also won't get you arrested on sight if a Cop spots it. Even the full-auto ones.

-The Sakura Fubuki is a burst-fire weapon with a decent-sized clip and very little recoil. Trouble is, it's a muzzle-loader AND costs 2k nuyen. Still a great little number if you focus on making it concealable. Getting it down to a -5 visibility modifier is not difficult. On the other end of the scale is the Ares Slivergun. It's a heavy pistol with a damage code of 8P/+5 AP. The gun absolutely blows at killing drones or vehicles, but shredding up people is second nature. Even against armored goons, the damage code and burst fire rate makes the gun pretty scary for a heavy pistol since it'll most often deal stun damage.

-For a drone-killer in your pocket, bring a Ruger Warhawk loaded with Ex-Explosive rounds. That's 7P/-3 AP damage, which means that a couple net hits will damage pretty much any drone. Making a called shot to increase your damage will usually put you over most hardened vehicle armor.

Don't try to blame this on grammar. It works either way, 'grammatically'. It's only when you take into account actual (non-Miri) common sense, the entire rest of the game rules, and balance, that the incredibly obvious correct interpretation emerges. Grammar is neutral.

And when you use that common sense and wonder.. why the hell can't I use that empty space for the belt hopper to fit cartridge ammo in some kind of feeder mechanism.. you get a 250 round clip for your burst firing Machine Pistol/Heavy Pistol. And it isn't obvious, Weapon mount says one thing, Ammo Bin says another.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/comma

The ratio of helpful info to petty bickering in my thread is getting alarming.

Miri, no one is going to buy the idea that a weapon gains a magical belt feed system that only takes a couple minutes to install and uninstall when you put it on a weapon mount, even if it is a single-shot weapon otherwise. That's not the sensible interpretation. You do what you want, but for the purposes of this thread, let's drop this line of discussion and assume that the only weapons that get the belt-fed ammo are the ones designed to be belt-fed.

EDIT: Brainpiercing, the same thing. The bit you quoted is most reasonably interpreted as 250 rounds in a belt feed format. If it added belt feed capacity to the weapon, I would expect a little more verbage along those lines.

Not that I WANT you to be wrong. A belt-fed Thunderstruck on a blimp would be sweet. Just doesn't seem plausible.

Welcome to Dumpshock! Or any other online forum, for that matter.

Yeah, I know. It's just that more than half the posts have been arguing about a point that is clarified on another page into something plausible, considering how firearms work. Why not devote the energy into talking about how to best put holes in things?

Very well. I will just leave you with this.

Relevant portion starts at 0:49.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBjUDCyDCuI

Cool. Thanks. Seems like a magazine substitution mod for the belt feed bin wouldn't be at all unreasonable a homebrew. Suspected that might be the case. A single-shot or revolver, on the other hand...

The 100 rounds in a glock using a double drum magazine portion of this video was already posted in the previous page of this thread.

If there's one thing an enterprising hole-maker wants to remember is Arsenal p150. It's the list of which Recoil Compensators work together.

(And if you don't have enough RC then use a Gyro Harness. Actually, even if you have enough, a Gyro Harness also removes movement modifiers which is cool. Try to shoot for, ahem, an RC of 5 on the gun itself so that even at Full Auto on a run you'll have RC 11 or no modifiers: at least for moving and shooting.)

And under Shadowrun rules, those would be Weapon Mods, not Vehicle Mods.

You can indeed increase ammo capacity by installing the various Weapon Mods. That is fine.

But a 200 nuyen Ammo Bin cannot magically feed 250 rounds of ammo to any weapon in the game that fires bullets regardless of their existing feed mechanism. That is all.

Heck, under the "ammo bin gives any bullet-based weapon 250 round ammo capacity" interpretation, you could insert the single shot Gun Cane into the system and somehow it would work. And THAT gun is reloaded by taking it apart.

The Ammo Bin is a box.



-k

That subtopic is over. Please stop talking about it.

Gyrostabilization harnesses are awesome and all, but they're kinda bulky and it's slow to swap weapons. Cyberarm gyromounts only provide 3 RC, but you still get the movement modifiers negated without the inconvenience or obviousness of wearing a full-body harness.

It's like a really, really slow gatling gun!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

So, cyberarm with gyromounts for unAwakened gun enthusiasts, harness for those with both mojo and the desire to shoot things. That sound right?

Yeah, pretty much.

But if you're able to kill things with your mind, why have a Panther Assault Cannon?

...

Adepts being the exception, of course.

The reason you would choose a laser sight over a smartgun system is that laser sights keep the taser unrestricted? How easy would it be to determine a taser is a smartgun and therefore requires a license to own? For that matter how hard would it be to observe the internal modifications of any gun? If I looked at your taser with an internal silencer, would I know that it's forbidden immediately if I knew it had a silencer or would I even be able to tell if it had a silencer inside it in the first place?


If I plan on using tracer rounds, then a laser sight works better overall. Although there are a lot of benefits to switching ammo, reloading and such that are obtained when using a smartgun system.



How easy is it to spot a broken down weapon? Heavy pistols are apparently capable of being worn as jewelry, but the perception threshold was never mentioned. Presumably it is less than 4.



The Sakura Fubuki is a light pistol so it already has -2 concealability. Did you mean barrel reduction for concealability -3 and a concealed holster for -5 total? Or were you thinking chameleon coating and other stuff? I thought the Ares Viper Silvergun had a damage code of 8P/+2 AP, but perhaps that is a typo? I always thought that was a super cool flechette gun if it had an innate -3 AP. Was this errata'd or something? I thought I was up to date.


I like the image that comes to mind when I think of this.

I would like to thank Marwynn, suoq, Faraday, and especially UmaroVI for their detailed posts on firearms. I literally quadrupled my understanding of what makes a firearm good or relevant, since I seemed to be unaware that I was uneducated about the matter beforehand. Thanks again.

I introduced Lone Star officers with Ruger Thunderhawks, and my group was "JESUSALLAHBUDDHA, WTF WAS THAT?"

No mods necessary. And they were just regular beat cops right out of a squad car.

Swap weapons? I have never ever swapped guns on a harness while on a run. Hell, there are some runners out there who haven't even reloaded on a run before, but that's beside the point.

It is quite visible and it's not something you bring with you on every run, unless you're the armed backup guy (aka Plan B). Of course, you could cover it up with ruthenium coating, along with the weapon itself, and you wouldn't care less about how bulky it is.

Gyromounts are not exactly a convenient alternative. For one thing, you'll need at least a lower arm cyberlimb unless your GM lets you install them in cyberhands. That's essence loss and a rather blatant illegal mod to have to a cyberlimb. You could make it modular, but then if the point is to swap in the gyromount you might as well shrug into a harness.

Harnesses for everyone who wants to carry an SMG or Assault Rifle and do more than Suppressive Fire or short bursts. It's not for those times when you need to be incognito, but then again, why do you need a recoil-heavy weapon when you need subtlety?

For added fun, look up Battle Rifles. Hope my ramblings were of some use. Experiment (on corpsec)!