There might be, but everything I've seen is that they are shrinking. It's like pro-Nazi types in Germany. They attract attention, but they are a powerless minority. And I'm not kidding, if you seriously proposed something like that and had the power to push it through you'd be dead by the end of the week. And they would walk in court. It's like a proposal in Israel to create an organization named T4 to "deal with" mentally impaired people and handicapped children.

1) There are 3 other Confederations by then. (Canton 2018, Swiss and Italian 2022).
2) By 2032 do we still care about skin color? It's been 11 years since Goblinization. Can't we have moved on to new things to hate by then?
3) It's not like the Civil was was the only time areas in the U.S. were a Confederation. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation )

There's been lots of historic Confederations. But not in America; the name's tainted there. (The Swiss Confederation has been there for centuries IRL, but nobody minds.)

And if goblinization means white and black team up against green, that's even more reason why allusions to the historical CSA are bad politics, because I don't think many black people remember the CSA fondly.

The idea of states splitting off from the UCAS isn't absurd, but they'd do it for stuff like States' Rights or tax reasons, and they wouldn't want people thinking about slavery.

I had one person describe Humanis as a combination of the KKK and the Black Panthers getting together.

And Canada had Confederation as well, BTW, and it had nothing to do with skin colour at all. (Well, red-skins weren't properly represented... But that's nothing unusual at the time.).

Wampanoag Confederacy
Powhatan Confederacy
Illinois Confederation
Iroquois League
New England Confederation
United States of America under the Articles of Confederation (1781–1788)

And, as noted, Canada.

My main point of disbelief though, is "Them ain't us." Treating Shadowrun like it's based on our 2011 is a bit difficult because it isn't. They elected Jesse Garrety as President of the U.S. in 2008. Their Twin Towers still stand (unless I missed something).

------------

To respond to the below post. Is your real argument that the U.S hasn't had a split off Confederation in the entire time that it hasn't has a split-off anything? If so, I concede to the truth of the statement without actually understanding your point.

The word "confederation" has meaning and that meaning has nothing to do with "slavery".

All those are from before the Civil War though. And they're not named to remind you of the CSA.

Canadian Confederation: July 1, 1867.

EDIT: While it might not piss off folks in the US, the Quebecois are still mighty freaked out.

What would people think is implied by a phrase like "The final solution to the welfare problem"? There are some words and phrases that have sufficiently strong emotional reactions in enough people that to use them automatically discredits you.

I don't know how many of you folks are down South (I'm new to my area, myself) but there's still a sense of pride in Ol' Dixie, even here in Kentucky. And I think - given the time period, and given the political atmosphere - that there might be a sense of national pride in naming themselves that.

I think that you guys give a little too much credit to the "slavery" aspect of it, and not enough of national pride / identity.

But that's me.

I pretty much agree with this. In fact, I have nothing to say against it.

You missed something. According to the Neo-anarchist Guide to North America (written around 1990) describes the Fuchi Towers that replaced the World Trade Center. The book implies the 2005 earthquake destroyed the WTC, though the actual wording never stated so. I think there is one actual mention of September 11, 2001 attacks somewhere in a book (SOTA:2064 ? Not sure...).

The argument stays valid though.

The word "euthanasia" also has a meaning and that meaning has no negative connotations, which is why most languages around the globe have adopted the word or another word rooted in it. Except for Germany. Here, "Euthanasie" was how the Nazis called their programme to murder "unworthy life", and the word has invariably become connected with that. If a German says "Euthanasie", he's either talking about history or invoking Godwin's Law.

Like the editors of the "Ring Of Fire" series has to keep reminding authors, "The town shifted in 2000. Pentium 2s running Windows 9X. Clinton still being president.", and so on.

The "forever young" theme is AFAIR the main reason for anti-elf prejudice. By having elves age at the normal human rate IMHO the game would lose an interesting variant of anti-meta racism.

So humans would have no problem with elves even though they are taller, more beautiful, more inclined to magic, and have (or had) super meta-racist countries of their own but have the same life span? And no humans would look down on Orks if, on top of having tusks etc, they live significantly shorter than humans?

I think there can be plenty of prejudice without dealing with the much more complex change of a society that includes a much longer living minority race. Even when I run D&D, no race lives much longer (or shorter) than humans because the concept is never treated with any resemblance of realism. THe only time I've ever seen it done properly is Dragon Wing by Weis and Hickman.

I think most of us like the different lifespans, because they cause interesting effects. The long lifespan helps to top off the "superior elves" vibe, along with fears among humans that eventually corporate management will be full of people with +2 Charisma who never get old enough to retire, creating an "Elven Ceiling". On the other hand, orks' shorter lifespan and rapid physical maturation creates troubles in schools: imagine your human daughter of 12 in school with 13 year old orks who are already taller than you are, and fully in the grip of hormonal rage.

Differing ageing isn't necessary for prejudice, but it's a very nice reason for it nonetheless. Also, I think it just "belongs". Elves should be long-lived, just like they should have pointy ears and be slender; that's part of calling something Elf. Otherwise they're just snooty and different, so it's pretending the French are a different race.

Correct link, four posts down the thread.

"The topic or post you requested does not exist"

Should work now, missed a "t".

Nope, still doesn't work, you fixed the main text, but not the link itself.

WTF, now it SHOULD work...

Which is of course perfectly fine as your opinion, but not in any way more valid.

What we're talking about here is radical changes TO the canon. Making everyone awaken IS a radical change to the concept, but could easily be fixed in an occurance akin to the matrix crashes - The Awakening 2.0, now for everyone, strictly without warranty.

does work.

As an observation from the Midwest on a possible break up and reboot for SR.

I could see a Atlantic states region and a New South region real easy in a SR break up. I do technical and server support for people all over the states and The two areas have completely different sub-cultures governed by a over-culture. The Midwest would probably be more sympathetic to the New South.

New Regions (Sans NAN)

The UCAS
The CAS
Midwest Region: Composed of former US States past the Missouri, the Sioux territories, and several of the former Canadian Proviences.
SouthWest Free States: The American Desert SouthWest, Most of Northern California, Montana,Idaho
Pacifica: Washington, Oregon, So-Cal, British Columbia

I can't speak to how Canada Would balkanize more, so I'll give that a pass

Well, point taken, but if your reason to change the fluff is just because the latest edition turned the mages extremely superior mechanically when the older editions did not, it's just better to fix it than change the entire timeline.

Well, my reason isn't just limited to that: I believe that in fact most systems can't balance magic with not-magic, because once one group of people can change reality to their liking, then the other part will undoubtedly be disadvantaged.

Now SR would be particularly easy to balance in that respect. Of course it could also be balanced differently: By simply going the D&D 4E route, namely using the same mechanic for everything, and not giving a bonus to some. But that still doesn't change the obvious advantage of someone using, say, invisibility, over someone not using it. The trouble is with spells that so many have a binary result mechanic, and remove the opposed roll (or at least the meaningful opposed roll) that balances the game for all the other areas.

Hence, if everyone awakens, I have a perfectly good reason to have arbitrary Joe Average security guards switch to astral perception and blast the sneaking mage. OR the Mage should simply use Infiltration while Invisible, as the rest of the world. Now, actually that is a bad example, because until they get high initiate degrees, mages are actually the worst group of characters at infiltrating, unless they get inventive, but...

Anyway, actually I would LIKE a world like that. It could quite possibly be more interesting and fun than a world where mages get to bitch once the GM counters them with other mages, because magic is supposed to be so RARE. In our last game session I finally managed to give our mage a taste of his own medicine, and stun-bolted him after he noticed that all his P buff spells didn't work while astrally projecting. He wasn't too happy about that, even though the opposing mage probably had half his DPs in all areas... he just managed to win initiative using good old GM-dice ™ . (No, not cheating, it's just that probability works differently once you are the GM.)

Again, if everyone is Awakened, than no one is "special" and being Awakened is one of the many "us vs them" xenophobic philosophy native to Shadowrun.
The older editions didn't have that much of a problem, so I would say that the problem occured just now, because while the caster throws Magic + spellcasting + miscellaneous boni to hit someone with a direct spell, the target just throws willpower OR body plus bonus from magic resistance. It could be easier just say that counterspelling can be learned by anyone but if you are not Awaken, you can just use to counter spells targeted directly against you. And indirect spells, like fireball, are resistest by the old dodge + reaction without counterspell because the mage is inflaming the air around you and not you.

None of which are essential to the game, or at least in my opinion. Why should anyone be special, other than by raw ability? Or rather, why would anyone need to be special in a potential revised 5th edition of SR, when you've already HAD all that in previous games? What you haven't had is a world where everyone is magical, hence, something actually NEW to a game. A new aspect GMs can worry about and work into their game worlds.


Ummm... in SR3, it was actually every bit as bad, if not worse, because you had Gaesa to actually reduce or negate magic loss. SR3 also didn't have manatech to randomly screw with a mage. Also, in order to counter-spell you had to reserve dice off your spellcasting roll, and you couldn't do it for everyone. Of course, the DP difference wasn't always that bad: a mage threw sorcery + pool dice, and the target resisted with WP or Int (for illusions).
That's one way of solving the problem. The other way would be to unify the mechanic. (Give people magical full defense, make cyber or bioware to increase willpower, etc.)

I was also thinking that making magic resistance more available to mundanes would do a lot to reduce the MagicRun problem/complaint.

Making the default resistance roll a Body+Willpower roll for example, in which mages are allowed to substitute Counterspelling for Body or Willpower if it's higher than one of those.

Or, introduce anti-magic implants/drugs. For example, implants which introduce a Mana Ebb of rating 1-4 or so purely on/inside their wearer. This means that mages won't want to use them, but for a Sam they're pretty effective, at the price of not receiving magical healing.

Or make spell resitance a proper 2 stat dice pool like every other roll in the game. WIL+LOG against mana combat spells, WIL+CHA against mental manipulations, WIL+BOD against physical combat and health spells, LOG+INT against illusions, WIL+INT against detection,...

That's an interesting idea. If different stats protect against different styles of magic, that's good for diverse mages*, rather than the current bias in favor of mages who put all specializations, mentors, foci etc. in one category.

* Because they can try to hit a weaker defense.

Humanis, Night of Fury, SURGE, UGE, Goblinization, the Tirs, Aden razing Tehran because the Ayatollah decreed a Jihad against the Awakened? All these things make it quite clear that xenophoby is essential to the game.
And now you are talking about a new edition of the game, not a reboot. If I recall correctly, every PLAYER CHARACTER of Earthdawn was Awaken (being a Magician, Adept or Mystical Adept) because you needed that edge to survive the game, but most people were still mundane. In Shadowrun, wares, theoretically leveled the game.



To be honest, I didn't play 3rd edition, just the 1st and 2nd edition, and I vaguely recall that the TN for the dice was the target's willpower. I don't remember if Essence did anything else for direct spells or if it was just healing, but now that we are talkiing, we use the same rules for healing when using any direct spells against cybered people.

Two things:
1) your actual link hasn't been changed here yet. so I still had to fix it manually
2) the reason no one has posted it before is because it's FrankTrollman. If anyone on Dumpshock can be accused of being a troll, it was Frank. Occasionally he has good ideas, but frequently he overdoes them. In this case, he's talking about writing new IP, while we are not. New IP is all well and good, but some of us like the existing IP.



This is good. A specialized mage is really really good at what he does, but on occasion finds Hard Targets, whereas the diverse mage isn't so highly specialized, but never runs into a target he can't hurt one way or another.

These are all good ideas. I believe what Magic is missing most, though, is a damage resistance roll for direct spells.



We can simply put in new xenophobia. Why does magic still have to be special?

A reboot will hardly work without a new edition, right?

I've only played Eathdrawn for the briefest time. It did seem like the way the abilities were organised seemed sort of like magic and adepts in SR. So, yeah, everyone relevant was "awakened", even though it wasn't called that.



The TN was often the target's willpower, so... yes, sometimes magic wasn't the answer. The problems don't translate 1:1, but it was definitely a fact that magic had an edge that could hardly be overcome by mundanes.

Anyway, just for kicks and giggles, I could present some insta-fluff why everyone in the world ends up as awakened:

In 2085, the dragon court decided to take definite steps against an imminent horror invasion. A united force of dragons began something akin to the GGD - minus the self-sacrifice, or so they thought. However, what the Horror's had really been after was the Dragon's fate-changing powers, and where the Dragons had thought they were safe, guess what, they weren't. The entire dragon court exploded in one big ball of mana, taking every GD in the world with them. The mana flooded both the physical and the metaplanes, wiping out a lot of meta-planar existance, AND the horrors, in one fell swoop.
However, on the physical plane, things ended up differently. Instead of affecting the world adversely, the mana was focused through each living aura, transforming the entirety of the world's population into magical beings.

Obviously this didn't go without side-effects: Previously harmless animals suddenly became capable of ridiculous things. The seas - already infested with strange monstrosities - became a very unsafe place to be. Global trade diminished as shipping routes became unsafe. The wilderness became an even wilder place. (meta)Humanity huddled up in even more condensed cities to avoid the influx of unleashed paracritters - all the while finding new ways to use their newfound abilities, usually for destructive purposes.

Game effects: Removes GDs, horrors and the like. We don't need over-evils, there are enough normal evils around.
Give everyone a magic stat equal to their body, or 6, if their body is larger, for free (yes, even technos), and either the adept, mystic adept or mage qualities. Define a few magical effects that can be instinctively utilised, and give them to non-intelligent beings. Life's a whole lot more fun if that rat could mana-bolt you .
Etc. and season to taste.

*Double-taps the icon on my chest* Reboot!

...

...

...

What???

Ye gods but that series was awfull . .

four posts under the post you quoted is the correct link.


Let's disagree on how often he has good ideas.


Well I have hopes of his work getting to print, because of the stripped IP.
But thats beside the point. IMHO you could still port some of his ideas back to your Rebooted Shadowrun. (If you stripped his IP out )

One thing I haven't figured out is why there aren't any Void cities, or if there are, I missed them. I really wish 6th world almanac or something had a map of the earth with a guide to background count.

You can blame BS&P for that one. The rules and regs that had to be followed changes so many of the shows from awesome to, "Oh dear god!"...

The one thing that should be done in any reboot is to cap a mage's progress. I mean a Mage can endlessly advance. That should be curb stomped brutally. I always thought that a mage should not be able to Initiate more times that the integer of their Essence. And if you lose more than 5 points of Essence... congrats you're a Burnout.

To balance that though, I would not have the Essence drain of Vampires or Ghouls being permanent. It is something that can be healed with that VERY expensive treatment. 'Ware on the other hand... that Essence drain is permanent because of game balance.

There's something, I think, that could revamp the adepts.

The ability to redistribute their powers, with something like for 1 pts of power redistribution, 1 hour of meditation.

I'm just saying that when 1% of the population is Awakened, you can have xenophoby because they are special. The same way you can do this to Technomancers, Elves, Orks, Trolls, Ghouls, etc.



Touché!



It doesn't seem like Shadowrun to me anymore and more like Aeon Flux (or that awful movie Priest).
Anyway, we both have made our points and won't budge, all I know is that I wouldn't play the setting you presented.

It would make them extremely overpowered swiss-knives.

I don't think adepts need to be overhauled completely. Some powers need to be adjusted a bit for cost/power ratio, and some awkward mechanics straightened out. But the basic premise of adepts is simple and sound.

- Why "extremly powerfull" ? Can't augs change their implants beside being more effective than adepts at creation ? I didn't gave the exact power I was thinking of.
- "Swiss-knives" : that's the idea.

I was thinking of something among that :

ADEPT MEDITATION
Cost : 0

All the adept powers' costs are doubled.

The adept can remove some of his powers and get back the power points from them, by meditating at least 1/4 hour per 1/4 power point cost. Then he can give him a new power by sleeping at least half a hour per half used power point.
If the meditation is disturbed, the adept have to restart the meditation from the begining, still having his original powers.
If the sleep is disturbed, the adept have to restart the sleeping from the begining, and having no powers.

The adept can't remove "Adept meditation" with that power and can afford to use that power [Body] times per week.


Me too, not that much in term of pure power. Some have to be merged and they just need (a lot) more flexibility. The idea is if they are to be less powerfull than augs, they should have a great flexibility.

And proper mentor spirits.

Wait, what is this supposed to be good for?

I think it is suppose to be that the Adept could use different powers based on the situation he finds himself in. I know that I would not use it because an Adept should have a theme for his abilities.

The reason I don't see it as actually being "useful" is that the adept powers cost increases by double. You get half as many powers but can swap out each morning? So useless.

Simple.
Runner A: "Hey guys, we need to meet the Johnson for the job this afternoon."
Adept: "Ok, I'll meditate a little bit to become extremely convincing."

After meditating the Magic 6 Adept gets Cool Resolve 6 (1.5); Kinesics 3 (1.5); Astral Perception, just in case (1), Improved Ability: Negotiation 3 (0.75); Improved Ability: Con 3 (0.75) and 0.5 points with whatever.

Later, after the meeting where the Adept convinced the Johnson to give all his money and bearer bonds, they decide to take a look at the place they are going to break in.

The adept meditates again and chooses the following powers:
Enhanced Perception 4 (1), Great Leap 6 (1.5), Cloak 6 (1.5), Traceless Walk (1) and Wall Running (1).

Even later on, after investigating the place and getting ready for the fight, the adept meditates and get the following powers:

Critical Strike 6 (1.5), Atribute Boost: Agility 1 (0.25), Atribute Boost: Body 1 (0.25), Atribute Boost: Strength 1 (0.25), Improved Reflexes 2 (2.5), Penetrating Strike 3 (0.75) and Killing Hands (0.5).

Now, tell me where any cybered character could do the same thing?



This makes the adept from extremely powerful swiss-knives to extremely terribly unpowerful swiss-knives.

Note that, for an adept wishing to be useful at multiple things (at different times), look into the Infusion metamagic. It's a pretty handy way to alter your powers for a scene at a time, a combat at a time, etc.