It's questionable if either of the tribes with casinos in Southeastern Connecticut have a drop of Indian blood between the two of them. That being said, one of them gets blown up on Dec 25th, 2040 (6th world almanac) so there's hope for my home town after all.

You know it is

So if I claim to be African-American and someone says I'm not, they're a racist for pointing out that I don't have any African-American blood or DNA.
You lost me on that one.
The Connecticut casinos, their investors, legal battles, and the impact on other local tribes is all well documented. They're not worth debating about here because there's effectively nothing to debate about. It's not like it's a current controversy. I simply mentioned it because the one drop of blood topic was raised and there is a connection to that topic and the events in the Almanac, namely the bombing of an Indian Casino by a group called "Warpath". My assumption was the authors of that event knew of the exiting controversy. If that event is there for some other reason, I'll be happy to be pointed to a reference.

It's weird... I can make Mic jokes, I can make Mac jokes, but the moment I make a Mi'kmaq joke...

Augh! I thought that was Hardy's idea, along with "Aztech gobbles up Esprit for the evulz and because I read it's interested". Talk about shooting your own setting. Warts and all, I'd prefer SR France France.


Yeah, could well be. It seemed a bit extreme even considering France's often heavy handed interventions in Africa (and the President's tendency to act first and think later). I was just wondering.


They took in anyone who could prove he had some Native in their ancestry. Plus, Hispanics are recognised as Natives by default. I guess many were adopted into tribes like the Pueblo. And the US has no shortage of Hispanics. I'd keep them, but have more than two US splinter states (Republic of Texas!), and yes, maintain Utah as Mormon theocracy.

*Cough* That's Deseret, son, not Utah!

Haha, right. Still, that'd be interesting, even though it'd probably make Bills cry.

Things that can go:

The NAN: Sorry, while perhaps neat at the time, it's just gotten damned silly. And Considering the NANer's burned out a LOT of thier shaman with the GGD, they aren't going to have as much mojo to hold territory as they would like. The Ponca Tribe up the street found the idea insulting.

The Ghuls are PEEPL 2 Meme: This is the one I really have trouble buying in the game. Sorry, they are a literal and visible predator that treats Meta-humanity as it's primary food source. The Various metas and even the sentient animals (weres, centaurs) I could groove too, but Sparkly Human-Flesh Eaters can go.


Things that can stay:

The Horrors: Yes I know that the big boys aren't going to be around until several millenia down the line (it is hoped), but there is enough Tainted and cocked up things left around (like artifacts) that could make for some real interesting and truly harrowing runs for the players. The Bottled Deamon being the first and most classical example.

The IEs: Actually, I really don't have a problem with these pillocks as by in large they are, ineffectual, with both sides going at it and playing games with each other, they really don't get much done, other than being a principle behind runs that the players will likely not know much about anyway. I did however, create an Immortal Human that was a victim of one of the Blood Queens jests back in the day (The Everliving Flower). He's not particularly fond of her, but other than that he tries to help out Meta-Humanity in general. This was the subject of several runs by the players which eventually resulted in the Digital release of The Rosetta Codex, as the name implies, All of the 4th World Era Languages being released in a side by side fashion with many archeological artifacts in the 6th World imaged in for people to start puzzling over. He did it because he had become exceptionally annoyed with all the Game playing going on between the IE's and the Dragons. It was his announcement to them he was there really. Some were PISSED, some were confused, some were immensely amused, and a great time was had by all.

The Dragons: As my players have only recently garnered the attention of a few of these creatures, I really don't have a problem with them. For players who were sweating over it, my NPC legbreaker put it in perspective. "Okay, so we have a dragon noticing us. This is different from a Corporation exactly how? We still end up dead if we piss either off. And his Money still spends."

The trouble with horrors and dragons and the like is that they are exclusively plot devices - usually of the kind that are supposed to box PCs in in some way, or make them shit themselves. They do not offer a meaningful method of interaction, unless the GM plays them nice. At least in D&D I can meet a Great Wyrm as a PC at level 5, and think WHOA, but I'll still know, if I survive to 20, I can kill it. And the trouble with SR dragons is actually that they throw their weight about too much.

HOWEVER, I'm totally fine with dragons in this version of SR. Only if the entire thing were to be re-invented, and everything thrown out and retconned (and still not called Cyberpunk 2078)... then I think there are certain elements I could do without.

Well GD's are plot like devices, as well as the Horrors themselves, but little minions like drakes, regular dragons, horror constructs or cultists are within the Range of the possible for the players to deal with. I've never let the players actually see a GD really, 'cept for Arleesh but that was a mcguffin moment. it's like chewing on a certain corp because it makes you feel better. You can do it, but it's not advisable. Same thing with ticking off a GD, not advisable. But I usually leave in ways for the players to get themselves out of trouble if they've got the brains for it.

Smaller Horrors, too, like Shedim or the toads and tentaculas from Harlequin 2.

I yeah I grabbed the Tentacled thing that was coming across Bridge and ran with the idea a few o them got loose and have been adapting to the low energy mana sphere. I called them infectors, and they became the subject of a long and vicious run for the players

I'm asking honestly: are you serious, or just trolling?

"... How about we Etch-A-Sketch the Human Race okay guys?"

The problem with topics like these are that they're the inevitable product of someone who labors under the false boogieman called "metaplot" - "this happened, and now I can't do X." Why? What makes you think that? Some guy on the internet? Some book published by the company?

I plan on running a game set in Denver starting this week and it'll be set in 2070. It'll involve nothing out of War! or the new Denver book, because I want nothing out of either of those. (In fact, I want nothing coming out of post-Ancient History-Catalyst, but why reanimate that corpse, huh?). And in a double whammy, they'll be working for Ghostwalker, and dealing with many of the elements many people deride as "dumb" for Shadowrun - ghouls, SURGE, the comet, Horrors, everything.

If you don't want to use an element, don't. But stop and think about the fact that many people do, and would feel like the game would be lessened without them. Like, say, groaning everytime I hear someone complain about "ghouls are people too!!!1!11!" and, "why are there cyberdicks in Augmentation???"

While I think it's unfortunate that you've chosen to not give new products a shot, I agree with the rest of what you've said. I tell people all the time that sourcebooks are ink on paper (or pixels on a screen), not chiseled on stone tablets. Sourcebooks don't make a game, a GM and his players do. What gets written isn't the game, what you do with it is.

I don't begrudge people who prefer to play a "canon" game, and many of them have great reasons for doing so. For instance, I spent quite a few years in an online round-robin game where we kept house rules and metaplot changes to a bare minimum, simply because the published material was the shared reference that was the lynchpin of the shared game. When I'm playing my own stuff, though? Sitting with friends at a table, slinging dice and eating pizza and telling just our story? Screw canon. If I like it, I keep it, if not, not. I let players know the big changes ahead of time (if they're likely to influence their backstories or be common knowledge), but there's nothing cooler than a personalized metaplot with just the parts you like, with the fat trimmed, etc.

*shrug* A thread like this doesn't hurt anything, though, and it's just folks playing "what if." The best case scenario from this sort of discussion would be someone enjoying the conversation so much that they do it in their next game, and tweak the world to make it fit just the game they want to play.

deleted.

I think the NAN would have to go, it's just a concept I can't wrap my brain around. I think the United States is already set to be balkanized, we just need a big enough conflict to divide the states, and I think the Awakening would provide that.

And I would insist on keeping the Chicago insect spirit debacle. I was but a young, impressionable teen when I first read Burning Bright, and it scarred me. That's always been my favorite story arc in Shadowrun.

Much as I like the NAN (Sorry folks, I just like seeing the First Nations get something OTHER than a raw deal for once!), there are so many ways to do a "Dis-United States of America"... A lot more believable ones as well.

And no CSA. Jesus Christ, can you imagine what would really happen if you decided to create a new country named the Confederate States of America? For tens of millions it's like you decided to name yourself fuehrer of the 4th Reich. I suspect you'd be lucky to not get assassinated by your security team on the way too or from your speech.

I'm fully in favor of balkanization. The rise of megacorps to the kind of power they have in SR pretty much requires that superpowers like the USA get broken up. Germany, China, too, would be too powerful. It's interesting that only such huge countries get balkanized; smaller countries that wouldn't be able to resist the corps so well anyway, don't get quite so balkanized.

So maybe if you want to rewrite history, you could make the influence of the corps in the balkanization more obvious. With some anti-corp states here and there, because exceptions help to prove the rule.



Another general tendency that annoys me, is to take some "signature period" out of a country's past and revive it, no matter how idiotic it might seem. The CAS, the French Nobility, that sort of thing. These have long ago lost credibility. There might be secessionists in the US right now, but I don't think they'd rally behind a pro-slavery banner.

I thought the New Druidic Movement in the UK was an interesting example of when it doesn't go wrong. It was a nice blend of retro with futuristic. "Eco" politics, a blend between Awakening and the stodginess of the Church of England (druidism being more credible now that they have magic), and V for Vendetta style fascism.


What I'd like to see new is more dwarves. We have Ork, Troll and Elf movements. While dwarves don't get discriminated against quite so much because they're not ugly/dumb and not arrogant vegetarian fascist art-fags, they should have some sort of organization that does interesting stuff. Maybe a low-profile but huge mutual assistance/charity organization to improve the welfare of dwarves worldwide, even if it takes deniable assets to get it done.

"Confederated States of America. Means an entirely different thing, look it up, I'll wait. Honest, The South Did Not Rise Again!"

*rolleyes* I'm sick of hearing that excuse for churning out low-quality product.


Assassinated by who? The Tea Party and it's neofascist, white supremacist constituency? There's much more potential for this in America than you seem to like to admit.

If they get into power in any way in the US, I'm moving to...

...

OK, I'm already in Canada. Where the hell can I go? Probably back up north where I know there'll be rifles handy.

... New Zealand? Or try and get Swiss citizenship. It comes with a SIG 550, though it isn't real easy to get for non-natives.

I'd fail any requirements for military service in any country with a military worth belonging to.

Oh, I agree with you. You've read my thoughts on the last couple of books they've put out Hermit, and you know that's not what I'm saying.

The root of what I'm saying is that you're not bound to what the company publishes, some dude whines about on the internet, or what a cult of personality has declared verboten. None of these groups sit in on my games, so they have no input in what I run or play.

If you don't like something, don't buy it. That's all it comes down to. If you don't agree with them, ignore them. I know it's a general cliche, but these people aren't going to come to your house and burn your books in front of you; I've got quite the stack of oWoD books that are still somehow mysteriously hanging about, after all. And maybe if enough people agree with you, the company notices and starts making changes.

...or they reboot the character / whole line, because characters are getting married / having kids / getting older, certain characters / legacies aren't white, *cough*, classic enough, and the whole world is just "too confusing" for new readers to understand.

That's the fate of a reboot, and I dread it.

ETA: I forgot to add that any of my comments only apply to the American version of Shadowrun. Germany and Europe has had some...weird....metaplot forced upon them by translation groups, and I don't begrudge them at all for wanting to get rid of it.

Only if your group is living in a bunker with no outside access. No man is an island. If one of your players bought and read Bogota! and wants to have some stuff from it (say, softweave armour because the encumberance rules in SR4 are the clusterfuck they are), you have an influence right there. If one of your players reads these or other forums and finds something worth bringing up with all fo you, you have an influence. You can't just decree yourself isolated. That never works.


And the best way to make the company notice is to shut up, don't complain, talk positive and what, pray for god granting them insight? The best way for a company to notice you is to make a stir (no, sales won't work without input, because a drop in sales in itself doesn't tell the company anything).


Oh, I'm fully with you there. I took this as an intellectual exercise, nothing more. However, I like nWoD margianlly better, myself. A little less on the sparkly fetish fuel side.


Interestingly enough, by now the German editions are a lot better than American product. Not least because they all get Errata'd upon print, but also because the current team is cleaning house with the setting's local metaplots. It's in reverse right now; the inane metaplot events are coming from America.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm lucky two ways - one, I've got relatively new players to Shadowrun, and only one buys supplements, and two, they're friends that trust me. I already explained the Catalyst Situation to them the first time we gave Shadowrun a spin, so they know the spiel.

Besides, they're friends first, gamers second; if they absolutely, positively want to use something from newer books, I'll talk to them about it. It's all about maintaining an environment where that sort of thing is encouraged.



You make some strange extrapolations from what I say, Hermit. Especially as you yourself have backed me up in the numerous Catalyst threads from last year.

I haven't shut up about it, and if you've noticed, I keep a link in my sig as to why I don't buy new Catalyst products. It's just that you want your signal to be higher than your noise, and going into every thread having a nic fit about Catalyst would make me boring and Dumpshock a boring place to be. So I don't; I try to be respectful. But I do call the Emperor on his clothes when I get the opportunity to (haven't said a word about Spy Games because Attitude was my third strike, so I don't even want to go the effort of acquiring it. So what would I contribute to that conversation? More mudslinging? No thank you.).



You're talking to someone slowly piecing together a Vampire 1e collection (found a mint in box copy of the first edition of the LARP rules at a Goodwill the other day, was ecstatic) and has a huge Werewolf: the Apocalypse, Wraith: the Oblivion and Changeling: the Dreaming collection. Someone who is willing to use both Freak Legions and Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand. I'm not going to take offense to this


You've talked to me before about the German metaplot. I think it would be really awesome if you German / European posters would make a thread detailing some of the metaplots from your respective translations. I think we've gone into Shockwaves!!! before, but you've said something about a fluffy dragon they found, and I'd love to know more about SOX, GeMiTo, the Black Forest Kingdom...share the wealth, man.

While in Germany for a festival I took the opportunity to pick up Schockenwellen and Deutschland in der Schatten II (because Schockenwellen recommended it). But is Deutschland in der Schatten II any different from Germany in the Shadows (II)? I get the feeling I've read some of this stuff before.

The partisan trash talk can cease immediately. Find a way to discuss the topic without it or we'll close the thread and issue more administrative warnings.

Uh...?

Hermit's post two back.

Kay, I guess I didn't see it myself. No worries, last post regarding the subject.

Sorry wrong post. It was 3 back. The is the inflammatory, partisan post I was referencing.

This board has members from across the political spectrum and politics is clearly an off-limits area. Posts which take a more clinical approach to the timeline is one thing...

Actually, without rebooting the ENTIRE timeline (which I have neither the time nor inclination to do), here are the minor changes I made.

1) No CAS: Way dumber than the concept of the NAN. The split off never happened and UCAS is about 40% bigger. Amazing how little this affects the story.
2) Elimination of Shiawese: This is part and parcel of the reduction of the influence of the Japanacorps. Two MCs was reasonable and Renraku is too tied up with the main storyline to eliminate so it came to an aesthetic choice between Yakuza Inc and Japanese Family Dynamics Inc. I picked the Yakuza Inc and merged much of the politics and corporate specialties into Wuxiing. I also replaced their spot with a slightly beefed up United Omnitech (the most interesting of the AAs) and made up a new AA to take their place.
3) No age differences between metatypes: Over idolizes elves and makes orks less desirable. I kept IEs though.

Could you elaborate on that? Are you talking about lifespans, or the first occurence of elves/goblinization etc.

Yeh, well... I'm giving an opinion while trying to be at east partly funny.

I do believe the following, though:

Essence is crap as a fluff element, while I agree that a mechanical element like that might be necessary. The idea that the body couldn't take more than a certain number of implants is plain ridiculous, at least as long as implants are properly designed. I still think money should be the main balancing factor. Perhaps reinvent essence as a sort of systemic pollution, or immune-suppressant problem, where cheaper implants produce more of it, OR go back to the dangers of DNI stress, as was eventually determined in SR3 - but this time with the re-balancing and cost redo that should be necessary. For instance, direct DNI like a datajack should have a large impact, while bone lacing actually has none at all.

I also believe that making everyone awaken could be an interesting continuation of the original SR story - or a convenient way to solve balance issues under a rework/redesign. The whole mages are rare thing was always bullshit anyways - or else you played magicrun all the time. And once every enemy grunt team has a mage to at least give them a fighting chance at resisting, then it's a small step to give everyone a magic attribute and access to counterspelling. People don't HAVE to develop it, in fact, I would stick with very basic magical training for most of the population.

This is one I've gone back and forth on since Shadowrun came out. Gut instinct was that this was simply a writer taking the civil war, civil war re-enactors, continued cultural differences and said "Looky what I made". Given time to consider, the continued and widening rift between supporters of centralized and de-centralized government and other factors, I can see how this would gain momentum. I had been unclear on what leverage would actually allow it to come to fruition. The effects of the Great Ghost Dance were the obvious show of force required for the creation of the NAN. The upheaval in the early 30's, the formation of the UCAS... all less dramatic, but I could see it happening. ( My $0.02 )

Hermit, it's gaming advice I've been giving for about fifteen years now, not something that I just started saying when War! hit shelves or something. It's also been "rule zero" in a whole fucking ton of RPGs for years and years, but I guess every single one of them was just churning out low-quality product, right?

Sure, so you can have a field day complaining about Nazi sympathies among the editors and offensive characterizations

The 2029 Virus crushed a good chunk of US/UCAS economy, and the southern states were going to end of the wrong side of the deal to rebuild the country. Also, the decision to intervene or not in Europe as Russian troops enter Germany could be a hot political topic, blurring party lines and reshuffling cards.

That is, if the Eurowars still happen in he reboot, which would not be necessarily a good thing.

Edit: In knew I should have left Hermit on ignore.

Wait... We can ignore people on the Internet?

...

I wonder how many folks have me on ignore...

Every one of the tens of million of black people would actively desire your death just for the name. The make up a decent percentage of the police and other security services. Evey one of them would see you as the personification of evil, you'd be dead in a week after you seriously proposed such a plan. I don't care what you intended, including any variation of the word Confederacy in the title is bad.

The general idea of that region forming a separate nation isn't nearly as insane, though it's pretty out there.

This... a "States' Rights" splitoff from an overweening federal government is worth talking about. But naming it after something pro-slavery is just stupid.

Well, I played Shadowrun only on the even editions (2nd and 4th) and while I do agree that stunballs/bolts and manaballs/bolts can be EXTREMELY powerful, I don't remember them being so in 4th edition, so I would say it is more a matter of how magic was designed in 4th edition than anything else. So yes, considering that canon says that Magic is rare and somehow related to genetics and millions (billions?) of nuyen have been spent by corporations and governments on the study of Magic I would say that rebooting to something where EVERYONE is Awakened is quite silly.

The thing about that, is that as I understand, there are a number of political types in the southern states that would support the name, regardless. Don't really want to touch on the politics of education, but it is getting worse in America, so there is no real guarantee the ones who might make a huge fuss would make a big enough fuss to make people care. But, that is my 2 cents.

Edit: By america, I mean North America. Canada is getting worse off, as well. I've actually had a conversation where I needed to explain what the Holocaust was...

This pretty much happens anywhere with the exception of Europe. Most people really don't care about history, specially if it is a history that involves people you've never met from another continent. It is quite different when your grandparents, parents and other relatives can actually say "I remember when France was invaded by Germany in the spring of 1940..."

Anyway, back on topic. As others mentioned, I dread any "reboots", specially the way reboots are made by american companies that lead with a fictional universe. I like to say that Marvel has a program that keeps checking the timeline of each new edition of their Universe and there are lots of flags to determine when the universe must be rebooted, stuff like:
1- Peter Parker is no longer a teenager, young adult living on a low-budget. If he gets married with kids and a good salary, it is time to reboot.
2- Jean Grey has died more than 3 times already.
3- Wolverine remembers ALL of his past perfectly.
4- There has been more than 10 time travels from the present to the future and vice-versa.
And the list goes on.

So, instead of changing the "ancient history" of Shadowrun I would vote instead for explaining it better.

Lifespans. I actually like goblinzation and the fact that different races have different races as children.