Those reality-rules aren't really all that absolute. Consider the example or Pulse and Sterilize: spells that destroy something you can't see. That's giving LOS the finger.

There are some things that explicitly aren't possible, like teleportation or creating matter. (Although you might argue that Nutrition seems to create matter...)

Even those "hard" rules are often proclaimed in a tone of "So far, no-one seems to have achieved this, but thaumascientists are discovering new things every day, and then there's those elves who seem to know more than we do..."

But a lot of rules are more like guidelines. The explanation of how spellcasting works from a fluff perspective makes it clear that the whole point of LOS is just to "connect" to a target or area; using yourself as the center of a spell does a decent job of that.

It's argue that those are indirect AoE instants, but yes. There are laws, and there are mere precedents… 'theory' of non-teleportation. I don't think this weakens my point at all.

Machiavelli, range is not AoE; I don't see that you can make a 'big aura' Element Aura by RAW. It doesn't really matter for our purposes, but I don't think you can.

Ehrm, what? Since when does
"do (F+net hits) DV to anyone within F meters of the target, which is resisted with Rea(+Dodge) and Body(+Half Impact)."
equal
"Increase the base DV of any of the subject's melee attacks by (hits), and treat the damage as the appropriate element, and beings hitting the subject in melee suffer (hits) DV, resisted with Body(+half Impact)?"

Of course you have to adjust the rules a little bit. From "anyone attacking the subject in melee" to "anyone standing in range of the spell". Damage may be not the same, but you get what you want: keeping everybody away from you.

What about treated it like a mage-centered Element cloud spell from War!? Hey, look, it might be good for something...

Edit: Of course, you'd still have to agree on a respectable value to make the "burst" spell ignore the object in the direct center, since there isn't a precident for that in the rules (yet, if ever).

I say: if element aura can do it, the burst-spell (as you name it) can do it, too.^^

Only if it is a variation of Elemental Aura, I would say.
That should not work for Combat Spells. They just do not work that way. I see no reason to make them work that way either.

A house-ruled variation of Elemental Aura, yes. I just objected to call in 'within the RAW'.

So, it's a version of Element Aura that:
• extends X meters. Force/2 or 3, maybe? It shouldn't be huge, but the existing version already works on anyone in melee range (if they attack you).
• strikes repeatedly. Once per full Turn? IPs shouldn't logically matter, and would only make a mess.

Wild house-rule territory: should there be a limit on sustaining the spell? This would be a major departure from normal rules, of course.

Again, Element Aura can't do it, it doesn't ignore the subject. If the subject were to hit himself for whatever reason, he'd get damage both from the offensive and the retaliatory effect. You're not just changing the spell from single target to AoE, you're massively changing the effect.

Not to say that precludes it from being done, but it's not by far a proper reason to say it can.

I did it this way:

- expands (force/2) meters from the caster (means diameter of force)
- does (hits) damage every turn you are in reach
- elemental damage (of course)
- otherwise see elemental aura (plus on attack-damage, if somebody is crazy enough to step into the range....damage, etc.)

The drain is already higher than elemental aura, so i wouldn´t apply limits to sustaining the spell.

That's stupid, Mardrax. There is no concept in the rules of 'hitting yourself', so it can't happen. But yes, it's a completely new thing.

The drain *should* be higher than Element Aura; a lot higher.

That's pure double dipping there. Worthy of quite a substantial Drain increase, if not outright scratching it.

And yeah, Yerameyahu, I know it's stupid. Do tell though, where do the rules say you're not a valid target for any kind of attack you're making? I can't see why you couldn't, aside from that mostly being pure narrative.
*shrug*
Different (and largely useless) discussion altogether.

I'd say because you can't physically dodge yourself. Hehe.

What came first? The simple action to shoot yourself or the complex action to dodge it?

Wanting to would be silly. Then again, ruling it as surprise would be equally silly.
Oh, the conundrum!

You have to make a surprise test against yourself, unless you know you're there.

Is any one of us really here?

You could actually be hemianoptic, and not see your punching right arm coming.

So you basically combined Elemental Aura from Street Magic and Elemental Cloud from War!, but removed all the drawbacks from the second :
- Elemental Cloud cannot move
- it affects the caster if he is inside the area of effect
- since it is considered a Suppression zone, peoples inside it are allowed a defense roll to completely avoid taking damage rather than automatically having to try to soak it

- and since it is a single spell you take just one sustaining penalty.

What Drain value did you assign to your custom spell ?

Ok, let´s see:

Type
Physical spell +1

Range
Very Restricted Target* (ie, caster only) –2
Area +2

Duration
Sustained +0

Manipulation Spells
Environmental Manipulation –2
Physical Manipulation +0
Elemental effect (must be Physical spell with Physical damage) +2
Major Change +2

Result:
(F/2)+2

for comparison:
Element] Aura (Environmental)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 3
This spell creates a rippling aura of elemental energies
around a subject’s body. Each element requires a different
spell (Flame Aura, Electrical Aura, Cold Aura, etc.). This fiery
aura does not affect the subject, but increase the DV of any
melee attacks by the caster’s hits. Attacks are treated as Cold,
Electricity, Fire, or some other elemental damage (see p. 155,
SR4, and pp. 164–165 of this book), as appropriate to the
aura, and are resisted with half Impact armor.
Any successful physical melee attack against the subject
also means that the attacker must resist similar damage from
the aura. The aura’s Damage Value equals the spell’s Force.

Why is the target restricted to the caster and then the range is LOS?

Does he have to look at himself or use a mirror or something?

Flame Aura (the original spell) is LOS, meaning you can cast it on anybody you have LOS to and he will get the full benefit of the spell, turning it into "Caster Only" is a cheap way to shave 2 points of Drain.

Just for the record, Flame Cloud is LOS/ (F/2+5). If we alter THAT spell (rather than Flame Aura), making the spell into "Caster Only" (the caster is fully exposed to the damage if inside) would still nets you a base drain of (F/2) + 3.

Your variant make the caster immune to the effect of it's own spell, removes the possibility of an active defense roll by anybody/anything inside the area of effect (leaving only soak), AND add the effect of Flame Aura (increased H/H damage and ability to do extra damage to the attacker) thus substantially improving the spell while having a lower Drain...

Especially with the double dipping going on, this spell as you've laid it out should be closer to the ballpark of Napalm Wall than that of Manaball in terms of Drain, if it's to have any semblance of balance.

I wasn't aware of Elemental Cloud before today, so it sounds like this is all just pointless.

*snort*

I almost just died. That final Drain result, for what you have this spell doing, just combined with Diet Dr. Pepper in an attempt on my life.

You are cherry-picking the precise effects you want from two existing spells, combining them into a spell that is better than either of them, and then assigning it a Drain value lower than either. That's awesome.

I think he added wrong, anyway. By my addition of his values, it should be +3, anyway. Same as the Caster only Elemental Cloud.

I only took the RAW and put every approbriate modifier in. Basically the only change to elemental aura is, that it went from LOS to Caster only which definitely reduces the drain a lot. Then i add AOE which raises it back again a bit. Anyway, it still would be a goods spell even if we adjust the drain to (F/2)+3 for balancing reasons, so i wouldn´t mind.

Besides: if you attack somebody with elemental aura (means stepping into the range of the spell) you ALSO have no defense roll, you just soak. So where is the big difference now? The range is just bigger. If you step in, you are toasted. Finito. I see no problem.

The difference is you need to sucessfully attack (or be attacked by) the recipient of the Elemental Aura spell to be affected. If you simply touch him (or he just touches you) or if the attack does not connect (Melee attack vs defense roll, and not auto-hit), you take no damage at all.

With your proposed spell, you do not extend the area of effect of Elemental Aura, you leave the basic spell unchanged and then add to it Physical+Elemental Area damage using a different trigger condition for it ("anyone successfully melee attacking or being attacked by the target of the spell" switched to "automatically affecting anything/anyone in the area except the caster"), actually rolling two spells into one. This IMHO should result in far more than the meager "+2" to drain you compute.

I think it makes more sense to take Fireball as basis of comparison.

* Restricted range: reduce drain
* Doesn't hurt yourself: increase drain
-> balances out against each other

* Sustained duration: increase Drain value
* Lower damage (hits instead of hits+Force): reduce drain value.
-> balances out against each other

All in all, (F/2)+5 sounds reasonable. Pick an element type you like.

The problem is, the spell is designed to save your ass, not to kill you with drain. ^^

Yeah, but you're trying to do with one spell, what normally takes several. That means that the one spell is going to end up more costly...

I will let my GM decide. ^^

I still say it works best as a suppressive fire zone around the caster. The damage is still there, it's not automatic as people can defend against it, but it can be a huge threat.

Personally, I never understood my Caster Only should reduce drain. It's the same spell. Perhaps it should reduce the learning cost, but not drain. Oh well, that's a different issue.

I don´t know. We are talking about a field of fire. If you don´t want to get hurt, get the f***ck outta there. ^^ I would say it this way: if the field is active and you step in: automatic damage. If you stand near the mage and he starts this spell, you can try to get out of reach (grenade rules). Better?

Ahem. Caster Only and AOE are mutually exclusive choices under "determine range."

Having not read WAR!, how is this different from 'Element Cloud'?

Really. Hmmmm...what about limited target? I wanted to make it a personal version, that can only be cast on the mage itself.

Restricted Target? No, but I could see Restricted Effect ("does not effect caster" or somesuch).

The "can only be cast on self" is easy to do with description: The spell says it "surrounds the caster with elemental energy" and tada, can't put it on someone else.

Not affecting the caster is a bonus, though.

Never said it wasn't.

It is. But not being able to target anything outside the area isn't.

Restricted target: Caster only is viable for spells for a -2 drain. And isn't mutually exlusive from AoE (Touch, LoS or LoS(A) are the choices there)

However, "bursting" from a source instead of a point would be powerful, so I would add an additional drain modifer, and restrict it to only be allowed when LoS(A) and "Caster only" are chosen, in order to restrict it from being used on a phys ad in the center of a free for all with the enemies... Or just not allow it at all, since this is all house rule territory anyway.

Edit: Maybe a Bursting metamagic would be better. "Using this metamagic technique, the caster may choose to have an area spell use himself as the point of origin, without affecting himself. If the spell is sustained, it surrounds him, and he cannot be more then (initiate grade) meters from the center, as long as he remains within the effect."

Thoughts?

You did say it wasn't, when you suggested that 'caster safe' maps to the drain *reduction* Caster Only (or Restricted Target). Instead, it should be a drain increase, totally unrelated.

Anyway, I looked it up myself:

• Element Cloud: diameter=F, hits as suppressive fire, DV=F, sustained, LOS(A).
There are some questions for me here. How precisely does it act like suppression? Does the spellcasting test's hits sub for the firearms Success test? Do targets get Reaction + Edge to avoid it? In fact, I don't understand how it's like suppression at all. It doesn't make sense for them to get Reaction against a cloud, nor should cover, not moving, or dropping prone help. Instead, it should (=appears to) hit everyone once per Turn.

• Machiavelli wants: diameter=F, hits everyone once per Turn (except caster), DV=F, 'Caster Only (A)'… right? So it's Element Cloud with this 'Caster Only (A)' category. He's downgrading from LOS (cast anywhere), but upgrading to Caster Safe.

You've convinced me otherwise. Now I'm thinking it should only allow a "partial" reduction in order to make the caster safe. If that.

If I had to fluff it, I'd describe the effect as random bouts of flame/electricity/whatever Elemental effect is selected twisting and jumping thoughout the whole area effect rather than an homogenous sphere completely filled with destructive energies.

This way if you are quick, lucky or both you could manage to stay unharmed, the Magic+Spellcasting test (which would be opposed by Edge+Reaction once per turn for anybody staying into or crossing the area) reflecting the "density" of the manifestation and making it harder to dodge, somewhat like the way Suppressive Fire is handled.

My main gripping point and the reason I find the suggested Drain *way* too low is that in his description he retains the full effect of Elemental Aura in addition to the area effect.

Let's try this :
Physical spell +1
Caster Only -2
Sustained +0
Restricted Effect ? -> "Anybody but the caster" is IMHO far too general to qualify for this reduction so 0 here, not -1
Physical damage +0
Major change +2 -> a chance of elemental damage in a F/2 meter radius qualify for that
Elemental effect +2

Ending with a Drain of (F/2) + 3 - which would also be the Drain you would get starting with an Elemental Cloud spell, switching from LOS to "caster only" for -2 Drain and trading the ability to freely move the area of effect within LOS for immunity against his own spell.

Right, he obviously can't have both spells together. They're distinct effects.

Excluding the caster is a *bonus*; it should cost *extra* Drain, not less… not even 0, as you have it.

Okay, I can dig the 'whizzing bolts of stuff' idea. Is the Magic+Spellcasting test an acceptable substitute for the firearms version? It seems like the DP and DV will both be vastly less than bullets. I guess we could run the numbers.

Again, I reiterate, with the danger of boring myself and others with this:
No. Just no. That is not the way Element Aura works. Not even close.

An AoE version of Element Aura would provide several people with the same offensive and defensive benefits, not bathe the area in harmful energy.

Even your Opponents...
And I do not think that it would work the way that you think it should.

However it would, it wouldn't set F meters around a target ablaze, which was my point.
Out of interest though, how do you think it should work?

Personally, I would never allow such a spell into the grimoire.
But if I did, I would likely use it like the Suppression Option that has been bandied about. Of course, the Drain would be higher than +3 as well. Probably in the range of +5 or so.

The drain of the "standard" spell would be +5, here the Drain is reduced to +3 because he can cast it only on a single person, himself. With the same restriction Elemental Aura would drop from it's "normal" +3 to +1.