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ShadowJackal
QUOTE (CanRay @ Nov 10 2011, 06:44 PM) *
Damn straight! Less scrawny elves, more good looking Dwarves, Orks, and Trolls!


This is like the conversation Ravensmuse and I were having before bed. Elves are far too trite. I far prefer Orks and Trolls. Even Dwarves are too classically "Pretty" for me.
ElFenrir
See, I *like* pretty but badass dudes. I mean, I designed a cyberdemon(non-shadowrun) to look good but be an enormous asskicking machine. I'm the person who wants a troll who kicks ass and looks damn good doing it. I don't mind playing a more monstery looking guy, but I actually wish sometimes I could get a ''Big Guy'' race who also is quite a looker as well. It's rare though, since for some reason designers don't equate being strong with being a charismatic looker(not that charisma and looks are connected, they aren't.) I dunno, I knew some real life dudes who were strong as hell and still good looking.

I like a lot of different kinds of races-elves, dwarves, orks, trolls, and the like-but I wish there were more art of ALL of them portraying them in non stereotypical ways. Like, why NOT have a pic of an elf who isn't pretty? Like a dude whose actually kinda grizzled, has a beard(elves CAN grow them), maybe scarred up, or whatnot. And why not a pic of a troll whose just a bigass MF who the ladies and gents who see him in a club actually say ''wow, he's hot.''

(Of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. That grizzled ass elf I mentioned may well attract people who like a grizzled tough guy of course! But I'm more speaking having some art that goes against the ''stereotypes'' of appearances.)
HunterHerne
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Nov 10 2011, 04:59 PM) *
See, I *like* pretty but badass dudes. I mean, I designed a cyberdemon(non-shadowrun) to look good but be an enormous asskicking machine. I'm the person who wants a troll who kicks ass and looks damn good doing it. I don't mind playing a more monstery looking guy, but I actually wish sometimes I could get a ''Big Guy'' race who also is quite a looker as well. It's rare though, since for some reason designers don't equate being strong with being a charismatic looker(not that charisma and looks are connected, they aren't.) I dunno, I knew some real life dudes who were strong as hell and still good looking.

I like a lot of different kinds of races-elves, dwarves, orks, trolls, and the like-but I wish there were more art of ALL of them portraying them in non stereotypical ways. Like, why NOT have a pic of an elf who isn't pretty? Like a dude whose actually kinda grizzled, has a beard(elves CAN grow them), maybe scarred up, or whatnot. And why not a pic of a troll whose just a bigass MF who the ladies and gents who see him in a club actually say ''wow, he's hot.''

(Of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. That grizzled ass elf I mentioned may well attract people who like a grizzled tough guy of course! But I'm more speaking having some art that goes against the ''stereotypes'' of appearances.)


Agreed. But when people start gaming the system to care more about power then an interesting, realistic character, then stereotypes are kind of played out. Trolls become insecure brutes. Elves become more about the litheness and force of personality.

And on charisma not being dependant on appearance, it is also true that tht chrisma influences how you look.
CanRay
I just want a good pic of Nas. Everyone makes him too damned skinny.
Seriously Mike
QUOTE (tehana @ Nov 10 2011, 09:30 PM) *
Even Dwarves are too classically "Pretty" for me.

Remember that dwarf on the cover of SR4? I want to kill that thing with fire. That's nowhere near "pretty".
However, the idea of orks having African features flies with me. Lessee, ork looking like Michael Jai White? Pretty fine. There's this character idea I have, an ork cop who understands how orks are seen by the society and wants to give them a second chance. Detective Ghazmar Walker, a good name for starters.

On second thought... Gary Cline looking like Obama? Just got that one idea, right now.
Wakshaani
As an aside, there's a pic in ... SOTA '63 I think? About the Tir's ongoing revolution, wher eyou see a tubby homeless Elf guy in a wifebeater. I LOVE that art.

Similarly, in one of the OLD modules, there's ... I want to say she's a Yakuza gal, but there's an Ork in a dress that just looks great.

I need to go see which adventure that is.

I'm also a sucker for the female Tir cop with magic hands facing off with a tusker in the Tir handbook.

CanRay
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Nov 10 2011, 09:51 PM) *
As an aside, there's a pic in ... SOTA '63 I think? About the Tir's ongoing revolution, wher eyou see a tubby homeless Elf guy in a wifebeater. I LOVE that art.
White Trash Elves? You mean I didn't make the first one?

...

Well... Damn.
HunterHerne
QUOTE (CanRay @ Nov 10 2011, 10:02 PM) *
White Trash Elves? You mean I didn't make the first one?

...

Well... Damn.


I think there are actually a lot of white trash Elves in Tir Taingire. After all, it was originally designed as an appointed Monarchy, in which most people were about as well off as the Seattle inahbitants, but mostly Elves.
Paul
4e has intentionally gutted the Earthdawn elements of the game, including trying to make Elves less "Glamorous." I don't really like it, but luckily I can just plain ignore it. I like my elves to be plotting on all of us.
CanRay
Who says they stopped?
HunterHerne
I thought the "de-glaming" started in 3rd ed (Admittedly never played), and even so, Canray's right. The elves are doing a lot of Great Dragon-like scenarios in 4th, plotting and scheming, and who knows what else.
Mongoose
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Oct 15 2011, 12:47 AM) *
Other than the nearly unnoticable "tusks," which are anything but, I don't see anything about her in the picture that indicates that's supposed to be an ork.


Man hands. Muscles. Kneecaps that could puncture steel plate. Neck like a linebacker. Face and boobs aside, she's a pretty muscular looking dude.
I could totally see a female orc who goes for cosmetic surgery (mostly on the face, with a bit of body sculpting, say to narrow the shoulders a bit) looking like that. Its certainly not human...
Miri
QUOTE (Mongoose @ Nov 11 2011, 09:27 AM) *
Man hands. Muscles. Kneecaps that could puncture steel plate. Neck like a linebacker. Face and boobs aside, she's a pretty muscular looking dude.
I could totally see a female orc who goes for cosmetic surgery (mostly on the face, with a bit of body sculpting, say to narrow the shoulders a bit) looking like that. Its certainly not human...



I went back and checked out the image again when you said all that.. and just noticed the bloodsplatter on the toes of her boots..
CanRay
QUOTE (Miri @ Nov 11 2011, 11:10 AM) *
I went back and checked out the image again when you said all that.. and just noticed the bloodsplatter on the toes of her boots..
Her boots are guud stompaz!
Glyph
I like the way elves have been portrayed in Shadowrun - the glamorous aspect is there, but it is a stereotype that is treated like a stereotype, like Asians all knowing martial arts and being good at using computers. There are elves who look like supermodels, but there are also elves living in the slums, overweight elves, asskicking biker elves, and so on.

HunterHerne mentions SR3. One of the part of that book that I really liked was the Metahumanity section, where they had an essay under each metatype, by someone of that metatype, addressing both the traits and the stereotypes.
ElFenrir
QUOTE (Glyph @ Nov 11 2011, 02:09 PM) *
I like the way elves have been portrayed in Shadowrun - the glamorous aspect is there, but it is a stereotype that is treated like a stereotype, like Asians all knowing martial arts and being good at using computers. There are elves who look like supermodels, but there are also elves living in the slums, overweight elves, asskicking biker elves, and so on.

HunterHerne mentions SR3. One of the part of that book that I really liked was the Metahumanity section, where they had an essay under each metatype, by someone of that metatype, addressing both the traits and the stereotypes.



This is a character of mine, Samael. He's a sorta-VERY prime more story-type character than an in-game character due to his sorta OP power level and extremely mohawky look. I kept some of the ''looks'' elves get but generally speaking he's not you're typical elf:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/TheC...OC---Samael.jpg


and no, I did not draw this-I wish. grinbig.gif But I admit this is the sorta elves i like. Well, this guy is about eight feet tall fully stretched out(he's tall for an elf to begin with and those enormous legs add a lot of height.) I wouldn't expect to see this guy in mirrorshades. He's also stronger than he is agile; in his 'canon' he can stomp about anything flat. (And yeah-I admit I'm more highly influenced by over the top type mohawk stories. I just have more fun writing them.) I basically just tried to take most of the elven stereotypes(he's good looking but not 'glamorous', he's pure raw cybertroll level strength and brutality, etc, and not afraid to get blood all over the place. And his merc boyfriend wouldn't have it any other way.)
pbangarth
As a matter of interest, how does he get his pants on and off?
ElFenrir
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Nov 12 2011, 11:06 AM) *
As a matter of interest, how does he get his pants on and off?


Curls the claws in and tucks the big nasty one in the back down. They're actually fairly maneuverable. grinbig.gif
Seriously Mike
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Nov 12 2011, 03:16 PM) *
I basically just tried to take most of the elven stereotypes((...)And his merc boyfriend wouldn't have it any other way.)

Missed an obvious one, any dwarf would point it to you. (ah, the old elf/dwarf conflict in pretty much any fantasy system. And in RPG magazines, especially the mail slot column)
Daylen
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Nov 12 2011, 02:16 PM) *
... And his merc boyfriend wouldn't have it any other way.)


Gimli?
ElFenrir
QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Nov 12 2011, 12:46 PM) *
Missed an obvious one, any dwarf would point it to you. (ah, the old elf/dwarf conflict in pretty much any fantasy system. And in RPG magazines, especially the mail slot column)



Heh. spin.gif Actually, he's a human.

Well, when I try to make a character-I try to take out a few stereotypes-but in the end, I like the character to be, well, a character. If, for example, I decide I want a dwarven mechanic just because I got a really fun idea for a dwarven mechanic, I'll totally run with it. I more or less wanted to build a huge, brutally strong and brutal-fighter of an elf guy whose general answer to lethal threats is to step on it a few dozen times until it stops being a threat, so I ran with it. (Then again he's actually been mutating lately into even a non-Shadowrun character in some of my stories the more I work with him.) He does still happen to look pretty good, but definitely does not act like a glamour-monkey or anything.
Glyph
Ah, the glamour-monkey. Haruman with glamour, kinesics, tailored pheromones, and a full-body perm. He uses strawberry-scented shampoo.
Shortcake
QUOTE (Glyph @ Nov 12 2011, 01:01 PM) *
Ah, the glamour-monkey. Haruman with glamour, kinesics, tailored pheromones, and a full-body perm. He uses strawberry-scented shampoo.

He needs to stop stealing that from Shortcake. She's getting angry.
CanRay
QUOTE (Shortcake @ Nov 12 2011, 04:05 PM) *
He needs to stop stealing that from Shortcake. She's getting angry.
You wouldn't like her when she gets angry. She puts her heavy boots on then. nyahnyah.gif
Charles Freck
My eyes are bleeding...

why is it that there's so much of... this kind of material on that website? Like, weird to the point where I would otherwise think the creator was trolling their viewers if it wasn't for the amount of work put into some of the pieces.
Seriously Mike
QUOTE (Charles Freck @ Nov 14 2011, 12:39 AM) *
My eyes are bleeding...

why is it that there's so much of... this kind of material on that website? Like, weird to the point where I would otherwise think the creator was trolling their viewers if it wasn't for the amount of work put into some of the pieces.
Trolling is an ART, son.

Also, another pretty ork.
Ol' Scratch
At least she looks like an ork.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Charles Freck @ Nov 13 2011, 06:39 PM) *
My eyes are bleeding...

why is it that there's so much of... this kind of material on that website? Like, weird to the point where I would otherwise think the creator was trolling their viewers if it wasn't for the amount of work put into some of the pieces.

It's DeviantArt.

That is the answer.




-k
CanRay
Surprise surprise, it's full of Deviants.

...

*Shrugs and points at my sig*
CanRay
Narcopost!
Lionhearted
Ray, those are not orks. I'm not sure what they are, not the strangest thing I've seen from Japan... Not by a long shot. But they're sure as hell not fraggin' orks. These dollies have no hez!
CanRay
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 20 2013, 08:49 PM) *
Ray, those are not orks. I'm not sure what they are, not the strangest thing I've seen from Japan... Not by a long shot. But they're sure as hell not fraggin' orks. These dollies have no hez!
She's an Oni, the Ork Metavariant, actually.
Lionhearted
Oh, where's the horns?
Grinder
Sawed off. wink.gif
KarmaInferno
How about the "slightly protuberant eyes"?




-k
Umidori
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 21 2013, 08:45 AM) *
Oh, where's the horns?
Poking out of her hair. Look more closely.

QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jan 21 2013, 09:37 AM) *
How about the "slightly protuberant eyes"?
Her eyes look reasonably protuberant to me, although maybe you're just visually reading that as "anime styling"? nyahnyah.gif

You don't have to be Peter Lorre, Marty Feldman, or Steve Buscemi to qualify as having protuberant eyes. For example, the character of Luna Lovegood is a great example of someone with protuberant eyes. It's a noticeable facial feature, but it's not outlandish by any stretch.

~Umi
Lionhearted
Meh, When fantasy creatures look like humans with fangs/pointy ears/other trademark physical trait. It rubs me the wrong way.
The physiology of an elf or ork should be more then that!
For example, with elves I tend to have slender raised cheekbones with either cat-like or large almond eyes, visibly larger sleek pointy ears, lush hair and such.
If I'm going for a more Irish feel add in rosy cheeks and disproportionate large mouths with thin lips.
The body in general would be different aswell, either curvy and plumb, but gracious. or slender and sleek.
bannockburn
Your descriptions sound very interesting, Lionhearted. I'd love to see some pictures going with them smile.gif

As for the Ork girl: Love it. I'd have pronounced the tusks a bit more but she looks way cute this way. Also the muscular arms and legs. The colors are not my palette at all, but they are used well and enhance the feeling of her posture.

And remember: This picture is from an artist who had to rely purely on a description, as (s)he didn't know anything about the world, or how Oni or Orks even are supposed to look like.

With this in mind, I think it's a really good result. Still looking for cute ork girls without overexaggerated features, though. Hard! smile.gif
Umidori
The problem with fantasy races is the same problem with sci-fi aliens.

Take Mass Effect. You've got your humans, with a wide array of appearances, differing in height, build, skin tone, skeletal structure, you name it.

Then you have the Hanar. They'll all identical jellyfish things.
Then you have the Volus. Dumpy, plump little dudes in identical pressure suits. No variance in height, weight, clothing, nothing.
The Asari are all virtual clones, but that at least is somewhat explained by the in-world lore regarding their physiology and procreation.
The Salarians are much the same, but without even an invented excuse for all looking alike.
The Turians are probably the most differentiated from one another, if not in body, then at least in their faces, but this is largely due to their tribal markings.

Today's modern Tolkien-inspired fantasy races are just as blandly uniform. Dwarves are short, stocky, strong, bearded, love beer, love fighting, love treasure, love tools, love digging, hate elves, and speak with a Scottish accent. Elves are tall, slender, fair or pale skinned, long haired, agile, love nature, love magic, love dainty and delicate things, hate dwarves, and are terribly mystical and mysterious. Orks are big, muscular, slow, ugly, and stupid. Likewise Trolls, only more so.

Borrrring!

General tendencies are one thing. But there has to be room for exeptions, or you aren't playing a believeable character in a believeable world, you're playing a fraggin' cartoon.

There should be elves that are as burly, hirsute, and rambunctious as the most stereotypical of dwarves. There should be trolls that are mild and introverted, who are into reading books and doing a bit of gardening. There should be orks who are lithe and attractive, who take modeling gigs wearing tight blue jeans, pouting seductively at the camera. There needs to be just as much of a range of appearances and physical forms among the metatypes as among humans.

~Umi
Lionhearted
There shouldn't however be elves that looks like just like a generic human only with pointy ears, to me that's show a lack of artistic breadth.
@Bannock I'm one of those old school farts that uses pen and paper, doesn't come out quite right when scanning. Also I'm way to critical of myself to submit anything nyahnyah.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jan 21 2013, 02:31 PM) *
The problem with fantasy races is the same problem with sci-fi aliens.


At least furries are doing it right.

Hell, there are a half-dozen or so wolves I can tell the difference between, and that's about as far away from my species as I can get (and have more than one individual; lyrebirds would be a good candidate...if I knew more than one, same goes for "most bird species" and "most reptile species").
Umidori
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 21 2013, 12:53 PM) *
There shouldn't however be elves that looks like just like a generic human only with pointy ears, to me that's show a lack of artistic breadth.

Why shouldn't there be elves that look like ordinary people, just with pointy ears? Why can't that just be one of the many varieties of form and appearance elves can take? Why do humans have a broad spectrum of body features they are allowed to possess, but the metatypes don't?

What makes an elf an elf? To be perfectly blunt, their genetics. Yes, they have physical features typical to their metatype, which are the product of their genetic code. But what are those features? According to SR4A, pointed ears, sparse body hair, a greater height and slimmer build than the "average human", and low light vision. That's it. And you know what? Those are all features you can find naturally in humans in real life.

Elves are really only intrinsically different from humans in the magical, thaumaturgical sense. They have certain physical tendencies, much like real life human ethnicities do, but they're simply that - tendencies. The average Native American has a genetic tendency for poor alcohol tolerance, but there are some who can outdrink a Scot. The average Japanese has a genetic tendency to be short in height, but there are some who are taller than NBA stars. The average Mediterranean has a genetic tendency to be swarthy and dark haired, but there are some who are pale as day and sport bright crimson locks. And then there are people of every ethnicity who look more or less "ordinary", despite their genetic backgrounds, despite any unique physiological traits they may possess in minor degrees.

If we're honestly to believe that the metatypes sprang up from humanity universally across the entire globe, we need to allow for the metatypes to show the sort of variance in physical appearance that humanity itself does (and that includes the possibility of looking "normal" or "ordinary"). An African elf should NOT look like a European elf, who should NOT look like an Asian elf, et cetera.

And before anyone asks, "But what about the Wakyambi? Aren't they just African elves?", no, wakyambi are based off a regional mythical being, much like Mediterranean Satyrs or Japanese Oni.

~Umi
Lionhearted
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jan 21 2013, 09:30 PM) *
According to SR4A, pointed ears, sparse body hair, a greater height and slimmer build than the "average human", and low light vision. That's it. And you know what? Those are all features you can find naturally in humans in real life.

Humans can see in the dark?!
Also you forgot "exotic looks, striking features".

I was arguing artistic breadth, as in "I know one way to draw a womans face and I'm going to keep doing it and change up the hair/eyebrowns, if it's an elf I'll give it pointy ears" Now, that's not saying that the pictures in this thread is like that, but still humans with tusks rubs me the wrong way because of that.

But I'll adress your argument aswell.
In Shadowrun in particular, yes there is human looking elves, but most won't be and we can't expect to see the same diversity either because of:
• Metagenes are immune to dilution, meaning that elven features will stay elven no matter how the genes are muddled or mixed up, you're either meta or your not. The same is true for metavariants. It's completely Impossible to have an half-oni/half-ork with features from both parents, you're either one or the other and drift doesn't occur. Source: Runner's companion
• There's distinct meta features that humans simply do not replicate, low-light capable eyes will have a different structure and shape then those of humans (look at any animal with keen vision and notice the differences) just as much as you will not find a human with natural dermal deposits.
• Metatypes are distinctly not human! they have their own variances for build, skeletal structure, muscle density, body fat, giving them distinct features different from humans! Dogs and Wolves are closely related yet you will never find a dog that looks just like a wolf, similar? sure. But there's still morphological differences.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 21 2013, 02:01 PM) *
Humans can see in the dark?!
Also you forgot "exotic looks, striking features".

I was arguing artistic breadth, as in "I know one way to draw a womans face and I'm going to keep doing it and change up the hair/eyebrowns, if it's an elf I'll give it pointy ears" Now, that's not saying that the pictures in this thread is like that, but still humans with tusks rubs me the wrong way because of that.

But I'll adress your argument aswell.
In Shadowrun in particular, yes there is human looking elves, but most won't be and we can't expect to see the same diversity either because of:
• Metagenes are immune to dilution, meaning that elven features will stay elven no matter how the genes are muddled or mixed up, you're either meta or your not. The same is true for metavariants. It's completely Impossible to have an half-oni/half-ork with features from both parents, you're either one or the other and drift doesn't occur. Source: Runner's companion
• There's distinct meta features that humans simply do not replicate, low-light capable eyes will have a different structure and shape then those of humans (look at any animal with keen vision and notice the differences) just as much as you will not find a human with natural dermal deposits.
• Metatypes are distinctly not human! they have their own variances for build, skeletal structure, muscle density, body fat, giving them distinct features different from humans! Dogs and Wolves are closely related yet you will never find a dog that looks just like a wolf, similar? sure. But there's still morphological differences.


So, if what you are saying is actually True, explain the Human Looking Quality then... *shrug*
Lionhearted
"Can be mistaken for" is not the same as "looks just like"

Also I forgot this earlier:
• They all look the same to me! symptom.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
If a Metatype can be mistaken for a mere Human, then they, by definition, MUST LOOK LIKE a Human, complete with all the variances that entails. At that point, all your points go into the blender. *shrug*
Lionhearted
A dog can pass for a wolf unless you take a closer look
QUOTE
*shrug*
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 21 2013, 02:15 PM) *
A dog can pass for a wolf unless you take a closer look


And all dogs do not look alike, nor do all wolves. So what is your point?
CanRay
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 21 2013, 05:01 PM) *
Humans can see in the dark?!
Some humans have better than average night vision. They can be downright scary about it, too.
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