CanRay, if I am EVER, for some unGodly reason, in Canadia Land, I would love to join one of your groups/demos. It would be very amusing, I'm certain.

I'd need a group first. Bring one.

Demos, however, I do.

What's the difficulty of smuggling several American geeks/gamers into Canada? Getting out shouldn't be a problem. Getting in may be the challenge.

Getting into Canada? No problem. Getting back to the USA, there's your problem.

Yes, because US boarders are sealed shut tighter than a can of tuna in a world with no other metal or stone.

Your runs have gone better than ones I've been on it seems. I usually find what is tried and what happens are very different; and I'm on usually don't start and end in the same place, but drag through many other VERY unintended locations...

Reminds me of the last time my group made a run out of Seattle. We'd gone near Tir Tangire to shake down a kamikaze lab in the middle of a D zone trailer park. Our team medic ended up making the stuff faster than the guy running the place and managed to make a couple hundred doses in short order, so we got the guy to leave and bring back more ingredients.

Couple hours later, the Salish DEA showed up for a sting on the place.

Bull's comments made me think about this-and I should have said this sooner. None of my comments in this thread, and in general on this forum, are meant to be dumping on the writers, or the other players out there. The beauty of the game is we can have a discussion like this, and there is no wrong way. Just the way it is at your table. I post these threads and my comments ins each of both ideas to inspire and as a way to refine my own views on the game.

It never ceases to amaze me that after 20 years of playing Shaodwrun I can still be as interested in it as the day I picked it up.

Hell, I've been interested for 20-years and still have yet to do more than run demos and some small campaigns. I have yet to PLAY!

I suspect there is a bit of selective memory going on too. ... But most people really don't want to get involved. People whose response to a flurry of gunshots outside their house is to grab a rifle and run out the front door to investigate tend to be heavily outnumbered by the people who hit the deck in their house and call the cops, or in really bad places arm themselves, take cover and wait for someone to try to break in.

I mostly bear my two arms entirely unconcealed... or do you count sleeves?


They're called towns, the things with other people in them, I mean...

Seriously, how did that happen?

Attempting the pun? or suggesting http://www.toonpool.com/cartoons/the%20rig...rms_124407#img9

Well I see tasers and legal weapons with no restrictions being far more common than heavy pistols.

But I can see where those that go slumming will pick up a light pistol or hold out (or be really manly and pick up a predator for the tough guy look)

Most will keep them concealed, the average corp citizen isn't going to go for the quickdraw holster on the hip, but for the shoulder holster that doesn't show so well through their designer jacket.

Staffs, some blades and swords to a point are likely to be common as well. Based on the arcane wannabes, fads about spirtiality, retro looks (and in some cases racial pride such as the matched swords of a samarai that can actually trace his heritage back... or has the system saying he deserves the swords on his hip)

I still think the majority of non-runner/security users will be carrying non-lethal weapons (stun guns, tasers, pepper punch canisters [normal and troll sized for the puse], etc) with some semi improvised weapons (more of the kick my hoop cause I'm an idiot keychains, extendable batons, etc) also being common

Add in the fact everyone more or less has a panic button if a SINner to bring the heat to them what will be carried is for delay/escape more than put the dude down

Not tonight but this week I'll be offering a more coherent opinion, based on some more reading and input from people in the site.

If you have tasers mirror IRL tasers they are not as nice as you might think, and make a very poor replacement for a pistol. Many dispense a wad of small papers with your registered serial number on it when discharged; many manufacturers require registration of the end user. cartridges can't be bought at walmart, making training hard. Clothing can defeat them. I'd go on but I think you get the idea. I don't know about in 4e, but IRL some states ban them or treat them like firearms.

As far as concealed, shoulder holsters might be the thing for old movies, but they are not comfortable and don't conceal the best. Inside the waist band holsters work great for concealment with even a Tee shirt. I regularly conceal a P99 (4" barrel) as such.

I do agree with wage-slaves concealing, I suspect they would conceal as is the case with most packing wage-slaves today.

Well based on the way the tasers in arsenal are worded, they are the weapons I would expect to be carried most. One is actually designed per the fluff to be the most common carry of ladies due to the gecko grip.

Plus in SR I see the ammo for tasers being far easier to get than dedicated lethal ammo (tasers are done as non-lethal) due to the fact a taser isn't going to damage most corporate assets when a wage slave has a psychotic break and starts unloading in the cube farm

And I can actually see most slummers using shoulder holsters for all the reasons you stated... it's what they see on the trid. The sly spy pulling out his ares light fire and spinning the silencer on it from his shoulder rig. Vs the normal looking guy pulling the paddle holster up and clearing his compact 2066 officer model pistol.

In general I would expect white collar workers living in a corporate enclave to be largely unarmed. Most corporate policies include a "no weapons" policy (which can have funny wording at a place that designs and builds weapons). Also, people that are hiding behind secure walls and never have to venture into non corporate society are not usually considered rugged individuals. I think its fairly safe to say such people are trying to hide physically and mentally from the fact that their world is a dangerous place, the last thing they would want is to see someone carrying or know someone is carrying something to be prepared for danger, that device would be a physical reminder of their insecurity; much less would they want to themselves carry a reminder that their world is not as safe as the company tries to fool them into feeling.

lol. good point.

Yes and no.

I think it was corp download but one mentions ares employees keep ares guns at home for defense and what not. The corps actually seem to have pr that makes the world scary so the wage slaves are less likely to strike out.

You also have it now where rich/middle class kids/adults will go slumming dressing and acting like they think the street scum does.. for the thrills and wiz of it

Twenty years of having groups fall apart one-after-another with one or two games played, and the ones interested in long-term gaming not wanting to play Shadowrun.

In two CITIES, forget towns.

I feel your pain, dude.

I take it you do play other games, though?

Strangely enough it was Paul's gun-in-a-bar question that really made me think about a completely different topic.

Why bars? You can slot an AR tripchip that will simulate the perfect level of drunkenness for you without hangovers or other risk, and you can turn it off whenever you like. Who needs to drink anything? There's still the social aspect of it, but the matrix is social, and it can feel more intense than the real world anyway. You're looking to get laid? Why spend thousands on something stupid like a bunraku parlor when you can get a BTL fix. It's called "better than life" for a reason. Just plug and play, and you can have more pleasure than 1000 orgasms. And if you're worried about addiction, you can take it easier. Either way, it's cheaper, safer and more controllable than the real thing.

I'm often more impressed by the internet than reality. The matrix would make reality look like a total waste of time. That's where I see most corp workers spending their leisure time, rather than at bars and such.

An interesting thought...

Where do people get their BTLs, though? For game reasons I presume you can't just download them, so you have to visit the seedy bar to buy them .

I think a major BTL problem is societal decay - if reality is so much worse, why spend time in it? And that's the reason the corps don't like it, and will probably crack down on them harder than on other diversions.

Maybe long immersion in the Matrix isn't healthy either (there exist various addiction flaws), while the consequences of substance abuse have become easier to treat (new liver coming up!). Maybe society is just slow to completely change its vices. Maybe people are sentimental about reality and "real food and drink".

Some BTLs may be downloadable, but I think a lot of them are still limited-uses physical chips. For good reason of course; you can't sell as often if they last too long. Of course, it's possible that after a while you'll get used to a specific BTL and need a new one to get stimulated.

Larry Niven had an interesting theory about BTL, I think he is probably right that such a device would largely lead to its own end because of its ease of use. People that use it would likely breed themselves out of existence, why bother getting laid, having kids, eating or engaging in reality at all? They wouldn't and after a while would cease to be. So yea I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be acting along the lines you suggest, but the rest of the population would likely decide to continue to exist and live in reality; including alcohol and bars and other drugs.

From what I've heard, life is better when you're high, but most people don't do drugs and most of those who do only do to relax. I guess it 's the same for BTL. Especially since corps need able people to work (and consume) for them, so they'll do what it takes to make sure they don't spend all their lives on BTL.

What people can do in SR4, though, is spend most of their time with a reality filter that shows the world in the way they want it to be.

I live in DeeCee. Police regularly stand by the trains, holding AR-15s. I don't like it, but I've got to get to work, so what am I going to do? If I see a well-dressed someone out of uniform with a gun, I figure it's either a really dumb tourist, or an "only one" who thinks the rules don't apply to him. Either way, I figure they deserve to be harassed, but it's not a big deal. If I see a poorly-dressed someone out of uniform with a gun, then I figure I'm in trouble, because if you're poor, you're probably pretty familiar with being picked on by the police for carrying a gun (especially here in DeeCee), and the fact you're carrying one anyway probably means I'd better find myself somewhere else to be right quick.

(Same case with Maryland, but in Virginia it may as well be a foreign country, so I just follow what the natives are doing.)

The quick caveat here worth mentioning is, if someone wants to kill me, they don't need a gun, so if I see someone who looks scummy and is giving me a funny look, I'll beat feet whether he's got a gun or not. The question isn't 'is the guy with a gun dangerous' (he is, even without the gun), but rather 'what is the guy with the gun's relationship with the law, and how does he see himself in relation to me'.

On this whole "the way people feel about armed people" thing - it depends a lot on what you're used to, and the kind of society you live in. My "normal" is very different from yours.

I live in the Netherlands, and seeing armed people is quite rare. The only people who carry guns - actually, any weapon - in public, openly, are police.

You won't see people with weapons except in bad neighborhoods. Even then it's not common - I've never seen armed civilians here myself, but then I don't go to the really bad neighborhoods. If you see a weapon, it's probably an armed robbery about to happen, or if you're in a gang, someone in a rival gang planning to stab or intimidate you.
Carrying weapons of any kind is prohibited by law. This extends to things easily used as weapons even if they're primarily a tool, such as a woodcutting axe - laws about how to transport them are fairly strict.

Police carry some sort of revolver, that's actually fairly discreet-looking. So discreet that I can't say for certain they all carry one. The only place where you regularly see heavily armed police is at the airport and really important government buildings, and that's only since 9/11, since (our government tells us) there have been terrorist threats.

So whenever I see guards at the airport with rifles, yeah, I do resent that. Since our society is actually pretty safe, it feels like an unfair accusation that the government deems it necessary. Maybe that's irrational of me, but it's my answer to the question how I feel about seeing armed people.

In Germany, I'm quite used to seeing uniformed cops with pistols, as well as MP5s. We don't normally see any other guns. Even though the difference between an MP5 and and assault rifle are marginal from where I'm concerned, seeing a cop with an assault rifle is disconcerting. I don't feel safe around them, and it gets worse if they are foreign cops. In Bukarest we walked past a group of cops lounging around fully decked out with AK-74s (maybe SU, I don't remember). We made sure to pass them by, quickly. The same when you see Carabinieri in Italy.

Personally, I'd hate to see armed people on a daily basis, because I just can't look inside their heads. However, I can very much understand the fascination of firearms, and if it weren't so bloody expensive I wouldn't mind trying a shooting sport.

In the train stations in Paris there are military men carrying FAMAS, but from what I've been told, they're actually empty. The ammunitions are in a sealed package in the pockets of their officer.

In the last twenty years, yes. But in the last year, nearly nothing, despite four-five groups falling apart...So, frag the officer first on Shadowruns in France?

Considering how large I have seen some people purses today for a normal human... I can only imagine the size of a "troll sized" purse. That thing would be a weapon in its own right.


Some flavor for you, I always imagine H-K weapons as being "Hello Kitty" brand and not "Heckler & Koch"

Someone made the mistake of trying to pick a fight with me on my way home one day from Grade School after I had too much. He threw a few punches at me, all connected.

I swung my army-surplus backpack at him. It had my stainless steel lunch box in it, along with two text books (Mine, not the schools.). Nailed him in the arm.

Didn't break it, but damn was it ever a surprise to him.

After that, he made sure to come in groups and to have someone always grab my bag before the beatdown began.

So you enjoyed the beatdowns?

No. I grew up in a lower-class neighborhood, with my grade school being a welfare school, right behind the welfare housing block and tenements. I was intelligent and wanted to learn, one of maybe two people in the class interested in education (The teachers are not included in that number. "Why teach the little bastards, they'll only end up on welfare like their parents" was something I heard more than once.). I was also rail thin and had a weak pain threshold.

Do the math.

And you didn't consider finding a way to defend yourself effectively or cause the beatings to stop?

No, I'm a bloody idiot. Of course I attempted many different things.

There's only so much you can do when it's 10-1 odds, at best.

Another thing is escalation of violence. Steven Brust wrote a series of novels in which a race created something called Morganti weapons. These black, necromantic weapons generally killed a person/living thing to the point it's soul was gone forever. The race that created these weapons sought to use these as a way to end wars. It worked... for their people. Other races/folks buy these weapons by the cartload & use them quite a bit.

Whe/n it comes to firearms, either most folks have them around enough they become common place & people are vastly aware fo what they do, the consequences of using them, & that their nearby neighbors or fellow townsfolk may also have them & are willing to use them. If you think the guy sitting 3 seats from you also has a 9mm like yours & the % chance of you both getting shot/killed is pretty high, the restraint to pull yours is very much in the forefront of your mind.

Now if you're like me, living in NYC, in which personal LEGAL firearms are rare, the idea that someone could just shoot/kill you out of the blue doesn't cross your mind. However, most (if not all) NYCers know that the possibility of someone having an ILLEGAL firearm on them is decently high because of the urban population/number of strangers about... so again, some kind of restraint is practice (restraint in NYC terms can vary drastically. LOL! ).

Pre 9/11, only cops carried pistols & the sight of an SMG was rare. Post 9/11 is when we had National Guard, SWAT, & some NYPD members carrying AR-15, MP5's, & M4 carbines out in public display. It's become a regular thing to see now. In fact, if I don't see uniformed law enforcement with something heavier than a 9mm pistol, I think there's something wrong. How quickly perceptions change in 10 years.

They are carriede without a magazine inserted, but I don't know if they carry sealed magazines or if those are carried by the officer.

It's not exactly new. When my father was doing his military service (just after Algeria), on guard duty he carried an empty rifle (at the time a bolt-action with clip-fed integral magazine) and the ammo in small packages (5 bullets), wrapped in thick plastic and thorougly stappleds - something like 10 or 20 staples...

So, how long it would take for a person to unstaple said clip?
I mean, I completely understand that soldiers on patrol can be quite trigger-happy, but come on. If hell does indeed break loose he will be shot before removing the first staple, won't he?

No, there are only so many things you can do when you insist on playing by the rules. Like the rules that say you can't wait for him outside his house in the morning with a baseball bat.

I guess I just have a hard time relating. If I knew on a regular basis I would be beat up by the same people, I would take steps to ensure all ended up in jail or the hospital, probably not all at once though such would be difficult.

If one chooses to be nice...

That is bizarre, I know American and Israeli militaries like to carry in condition 3, but I didn't realize some European military/paramilitarys use California carry.

Would have to know where they lived, first. Second, that'd be a lot of houses to get to. Third, I was already getting blamed for all the fights I was getting into as is (It's easier to have one parent-teacher interview than ten). Fourth, I wasn't a violent person. Fifth, all that would have happened would be I would have screwed up the first time, and gotten the baseball bat to the ribs and knees myself. Finally, it would have changed nothing.

Police would have done nothing. The school had detailed files on how I was a troublemaker and caused all the fights (See above. I later saw my permanent record in High School, it was over a foot thick.). As for putting them in the hospital, I wasn't a violent person as a child. Hell, I don't even know if I'm violent today.

I do know I won't be a victim again, I will say that.

Well, you certainly have my respect for even being able to talk about it like that. It's sad that sometimes things can go so wrong. It's also funny how the worst kids can be absolute angels as soon as their parents are around. Guess they had something to compensate the rest of the time.

I'm lucky enough to say that I've never been a victim of a violent encounter (after elementary school, where it was mostly harmless, and I did have a bit of a short fuse). My brother, though, was beaten and hospitalized several times. And I'm sad to say that compared to the legal system the baseball bat seemed like a really attractive solution at some point. I'm thinking even my parents were that close...

No, they were little bastards around their parents as well. Welfare Families, third, fourth generation at that point. Fifth or sixth now (Yes, some are still right where I damned well left them. Just as the teachers predicted.). Note that I'm not down on Welfare, it's been there for my family the very few times we've needed it, but it wasn't meant for people who can work to live on just because it's easier than earning a living. Then again, I have a very strong work ethic.

I talk about it now because it feels on topic. An armed society would have had kids with streetline specials at the very least. And possibly even more school shootings than we see today. (Possibly enough that it's just another news story, instead of headlines.). Yes, I know that happens in some schools, but I grew up in a Northern Ontarian City. There were firearms, but usually of the hunting variety rather than pistols or automatics, although the gangs had a very few number of pistols.

I remember in Cyberpunk 2020 there was talk of Vending Machines that had Poly-Oneshots in them (Plastic Pistols that were so unreliable that they'd probably jam after their first shot.). I could see similar in Shadowrun quite well...

Just gives a change in perception, I think. An armed society is one that equalizes bullies and bullied. Or, at least, makes emotions bubble until it breaks through and... Well, we've all seen far too many news reports to guess what happens.

Just a reminder as well, I grew up in a mining town. Think about that for a moment.

EDIT: I should point out, they were always careful (Or I was lucky enough) that a hospital stay was never needed. That prevented police intervention (As it was a "School Matter"). If I had been hospitalized, I think things would have changed quite rapidly.

Also, despite all the blows to my head, no concussions. Go figure, I guess my Irish blood came through on that part.

That is probably the part I can't understand. I've always found violence easy when needed; but then you're probably a nicer person than me.

I hope you never find a need for violence.

Not sure how nice a person I am. Raised by Hippies (Who later enrolled me in martial arts for self defense, which tells you how bad things got.). I hope I never find a need either.

In the worst cities in the US where violence is a problem gun control has done nothing to help stop violence, either the kids have guns or they don't, when they don't 2x4s are used for the same effect. The gun IS society. It makes a 300lb man the equal of a 100 lb woman. Without the gun if he wishes to rape her she has no chance with a gun she can fight back at least as an equal(assuming he has one too). If I was having trouble with 10 people beating me up, I would have a gun, either they would stop or at least one of them would die. Most bullies and predators stop with those sort of odds (in fact I don't know of any pack animals that will regularly accept 10% losses to the pack each hunt). If we are both armed we must talk or face unfavorable odds of survival, without guns I can just beat you to a pulp if you are smaller. Without talking there is no society; thus guns are society.

The difference guns makes is interesting in the difference in crime in US and UK I think. I've read some studies that show in the UK home breakins are done without regard to the homeowner being at home. In the US areas with plenty of guns criminals avoid homeowners. Firearms owned by law abiding citizens makes on the job stress and threats go up too high for criminals. Muggins are only heard of in places where the general public is unarmed.

I like the gun in a vending machine idea. gave a good chuckle.