I can imagine that EVO and the RCC are cautiously looking at each other with new eyes, since they've both embraces metas after initially being against them.

Maybe Horizon and the RCC actually despise each other, since hearts and minds are something they compete over; Horizon wants to sell its own opiate to the masses and all that.

S-K has often manipulated Islamic forces in order to protect its own Middle-East interests; maybe they "work together" with the RCC as well?

Did the Second Euro-War forge new relations between RCC and Ares / S-K? Sort of a WH40K kind of deal, Industry & Faith joined?

Yeah, but Evo's Transhumanism would probably not sit well with any old time religion.

As for Industry & Faith... Maybe Ares, but not with a Dragon. Honestly, what church is big enough for him to fit inside to get baptized?

He can change into human form, can't he?

"Enemy of my enemy" is a basis for cooperation, the RCC can be quite pragmatic. On the other hand, St. Francis preached to animals...

Certain things are beyond mere pragmatism, even for the RCC. I don't see them changing their view over euthanasia, abortion and homossexual marriage not even with Magic, Dragons and weirder things hanging around.

It quite literally says in the Old Testament (Exodus I Think) that if a man lays with another man they shall be put to death. In 2000 Years the Church has managed to back off the death penalty for homosexuality from Canon Law. It will probably be the 8th or 9th world before they recognize gay marriage.

enemy of my enemey might still be my enemy. That sentiment never really works out well.

No that just means you try to get them to screw each other over at minimum cost to you. Success or failure is determined by your skill at managing it. So if you're the United States over the past 20 years that means you got played by Iran, on the flip side if you're the Iranian Intelligence service you got one major enemy (the US) to wipe out one nearby enemy (Iraq) and set yourself up to benefit. It can work, but it takes skill and preparation, and for game purposes it takes disposable agents to make it work and that where you can get some nice plot ideas.

Probably like in China (modern-day) and other dictatorships: Religion itself is OK, but TPTB keep a close eye on what gets preached and got key positions in the administration under their thumb.

That means there is freedom of belief and worship, but not of Religion; therefore it is belief that is ok.

The RCC doesn't change dogma. They're very proud of that fact. You will never ever in a thousand years see:
1) The RCC accept any homosexual relations as non-sinful
2) Have a female priest or bishop (or cardinal or pope)
3) Accept any priest or bishop who cannot prove he was consecrated by an approved bishop (i.e., a break in the apostolic succession).

However, they do sometimes change logistics and behaviors. You may see:
1) Homosexuals made to feel welcome to services (even if they're in a civil marriage)
2) Females who take more active roles in the Church, similar to a deacon
3) Acceptance as metahumans, miscenegation and so on
4) Acceptance of magic in a limited context (this is because 'magic' is difficult to pin down as a particular thing, and because, AFAIK, the RCC has never had to contend with the issue of common magic, and so it's not been properly debated out for twenty years).

The exception here is the LIBERAL Catholic Church, which is an offshoot from the RCC and very similar in many ways may of course hold its own positions, and can do any of the things in the first (or second) list.

*Cough* "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"?

Of course, from my understanding, that's a sorta-mistranslation.

I have a cousin who can read Hebrew and he's told me that the translation from Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English has made quite a mess of the Bible, mostly because contextual changes in word meanings in the various languages were improperly translated over the course of millenia.

I've heard two different translation issues with that one. One is that is should read: "Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live". The other is that there was a few translations that included a differentiation between "Black Magic" and "Healing Magic".

There's also the fact that this was a verbal history for how long before someone decided to write it down?

There are plenty of old writings about magic, summoning and the like. The church has always condemned magic and summoning not done through their priests (what do you think an exorcism is?).

The reverse of a summoning? A banishing? A way to get an old priest and a young priest dead?

Well, the OT is monolatristic and as such has all sorts of weird stuff about magic...


With the NT things got retconned a bit, there is only one god and magic does not exist. Therefore a miracle is not magic, but a sign that somebody is in good standing with god and therefore god intervenes on his behalf -- or that he is in good standing with the only other source of supernatural shenanigans, the guy downstairs.
What the Vatican did in SR is declare that magic now is a force of nature and not a sign of outside interference. Therefore performing magic is neither a sign of sainthood nor of a pact with the devil, thus no need to burn anyone (unless he does a Spirit Pact).

Okay, back from work.

I understand that the RCC isn't going to ordain women into the preisthood anytime in our lifetime (Or, likely, ever), but, teh Shadowrun RCC has had a few hits that ours hasn't ... being kicked out of Ireland and Latin America, for instance, the return of magic, a rise of secular humanisim and, heck, the One World Government (The corporate court) labelled everyone as a SINner.

So, with a shortage of manpower and financing, adapting a bit to allow women greater freedom was my one nod to a liberalising church. Mind, this is for my home game... I probably wouldn't push it for the main game, but an offshoot based on "The Gospel of Mary" might be fun. A book, branded heretical natch, that claims to be writen by Mary (Not the Virgin Mary or the Prostitute Mary, but the other Mary) and showcases a role in The Church that was stamped out (Insert Burning Times talk here) but came back after the return of magic. Maybe tie it in with Jon of Arc or somesuch.

The big thing, of course, is that when you write about a real-world religion, instead of a fantastic one like a D&D pantheon, you have to walk caaaaarefully lest you step on some toes. TORG used to have disclaimers all OVER the place due to this, and a similar approach for Shadowrun would, obviously, be called on.

I'm detecting potential campaign arc elements here

Idea 1) The Church isn't adapting at all, it's preparing for Armageddon and maybe some element has made an unholy (Pardon the pun) alliance with Winternight remnants or splinters that survived the crash of '64

There may be more coming

I understand that this is a very slippery slope, but please keep the discussion about the Vatican in the 6th World - modern-day's Vatican/ RCC and likely changes it's gonna make in the real world are against the ToS.

4. Discussion of politics, religion, and sex are prohibited, except as they directly pertain to Shadowrun or another game. Discussions on these subjects will be watched closely, and any innapropriate posts may result in warnings or suspensions.

Well, having a few priests able to call on the Archangels (Spirits) for advice might push things one way or another...

Doubt they'd work with Winternight, however. Except in the "Burn the pagan heathens!" manner.

Interesting conundrum could happen. What if someone summons the Spirit (Archangel) Micheal, does he answer any questions one could ask correctly about what he supposedly has done? It brings up the old question of did the summoner create the spirit, or call the spirit forth from somewhere? Or do they get the "real" Micheal?

Or do you only get minor angels for "Spirits", and have to go on a Metaplanar Quest to talk to the Archangels?

Archangels as Mentor Spirits... I like that.

Oh my, I wonder if this would mean Jews visit Fire elemental for mentor spirits...

I think it would take an unusual confluence of circumstances, but Deus' Otaku and Winternight (sort of) worked together though not entirely for the same purpose. But Winternight wants to bring on Ragnarok and it's not inconveivablt that some element inside the church wants go go beyond just preparing for Armageddon. And the two would be a natural unholy alliance for an evil GM

I agree it's thin ice any time they come up and like politics religion or discussions of religious institutions have the chance to blow up like an Ares IPE Offensive grenade.
I think both posts were intended to try to help flavor the RCC for gaming purposes. I think the point is to help contrast the Church with newer 6th world institutions by demonstrating that they can be both flexible and inflexible at the same time, by taking very nuanced positions that differ only slightly from their ancient ones. That's what really makes them different from the Megacorps, 6th world interest groups like the Draco Foundation or the Illuminates of the new dawn. They area 2000 year old institution that has been conservatively adaptable, and very successful at it, and for my .02 it's a flavor that really needs to be highlighted in runs involving the church, because it's so much a part of who they are as an institution.

Re: Summoning Angels.

This would fall into the category of Ancestor Spirits and 'Ghosts' ... they look like angels, they call 'em angels, but are they *really* angels? Thaumatical Research continues!

In essence, you punt on that one.

The Miraculous (Catholics who use a religion tradition to focus their abilities. Adepts might be 'Blessed' instead.) aren't in high numbers, since they're sure to get drafted to other areas first (Magicians, as always, being in short supply.)

Most of them are just ordinary folks.

Makes sense.

Worked for Angels in Supernatural.

Well, here's how religion works in my Shadowrun:

The most popular church in the United States is the One World church. As in the book, it's a mix of various influences, but most predominantly Christian. It varies heavily from church to church -- some might be more protestant, others more Catholic, others more Islamic. Down South it might emphasise voodoun a bit more. The one near my players tends towards Catholic, as the local population is heavily Irish/Spanish.

The priest is expected, like an army Chaplain, to be able to provide religious care to everyone in his district. In this case, he's a fully paid-up member of the RCC, so that he can hold Mass and hear confession, etc etc. Religion around here's all pretty fuzzy, and there are few people who insist on the full deal, but if they do, he's there.

As a result, the RCC maintains a presence even in areas that lack a dedicated Catholic Church. they don't openly approve of the OWC, but they're happy to use it as a way to get their own priests into the right places. Meanwhile, they do appreciate the occasional intelligence reports they get from the priests, which are the price for allowing them to be ordained. Y'know, an overview of who's in the area, what religious problems they face, what magical activity vexes them, what people are confessing about. The latter is of course anonymous... but their analysts can usually put confession to name fairly easily once there are enough reports to put everything in context.

What do they do with that info? Well, I haven't quite decided, but I'm not going to have them do anything quite so gauche as sell it on. I want to make clear distinctions between Church and Corporation. If they make money off it, it's for themselves... and to know what buttons to press to get good local deals.

The other element to consider is that if you can demonstrate convincing evidence that god IS on your side that produces some profound changes in how how people think of a religion. If you remove the need for faith to accept their doctrines as true and they can instead rely on clear and convincing evidence you'd have to be a fool to not be a believer.

So you have to be careful in just where you go with that line of thinking unless that is what you intend to do.

Uhm, that's basically what SM has an extra list for at the back of the book: Every tradition sees mentor spirits different to make them fit into its framework.
Of course the position assigned to many mentor spirits in the framework of Abrahamic religions would be somewhat negative, because there can only be one™...which could cause some interesting conflicts with other religious traditions. For example, a shaman who follows Firebringer (Prometheus, Loki,...) might be a bit pissed about how Christianity calls the guy who rebelled against the god(s) and brought knowledge to mankind...

It gets tricky if three people all claim to be Inspired (have as Mentor) by the same angel, but they get different kinds of guidance.

I'll try to restrict my focus to 2050-2070 RCC, although all of my comments are based on her history (i.e., nowish). I'm not bringing up anything for 'discussion' though, just paraphrasing first-hand sources. If people want to discuss details of the current Church, go ahead and PM me. Even so, I'll try to keep brief to avoid anything which looks like a ToS violation.



Exactly this (as well as stevebugge's point, that the English translation is, well, drek). Until they pass an actual decree saying 'sixth world magic is magic, and is not permitted under these circumstances, as indicated in the following documents', it's undecided, and they're free to go either way. Given the strong arguments from hermetics that it's a natural force, and the pragmatic realization that banning ALL magic will kill them, the situation as described in canon seems well-thought out and quite reasonable (i.e., magic is okay, but only when we do it, with a blind eye turned towards the practices of the faithful).




I can kinda sorta roll with this. It's like saying the US will never eliminate congress and use two branches of government, but when dragons come out of the ground, they do. It's breaking some MAJOR rules, but if the circumstances are so extreme that they literally redraw what defines the organization then yes, perhaps. So just like the USA is now a new organization, the UCAS, it is possible the RCC is effectively a new organization as well. However, since they still hold Rome, and still claim apostolic succession, everyone will still call them the Roman Catholic Church (whether it's still appropriate or not).

With this in mind, if you're willing to roll this way, consider the backlash will be significant. There's a lot of old-school Catholics who know how they like it, and if the Vatican turns around and says 'oh, women priests and also Mary wasn't a virgin', those people will be packing their bags. From a purely pragmatic stance, I expect that the loss of faithful from accepting a major change in dogma such as female priests would outweigh the benefits. Unless they're already making that break for some other reason, I can't see it as being practical.

The practical solution would be to permit women increased roles in the Church, similar to deacons, but just specify that they aren't ordained priests. I don't know if it's dogma that women can't be deacons; I don't believe it is. Even if it is, a similar program can be set up. The effective difference between a deacon and a priest is a deacon can't bless the communion (so can't lead the mass) and he can't grant absolution through penance. The end result? You'll end up with churches which are organized by women, with women leading all the prayer groups and after-hour activities. And she'll do the readings and sermons for the weekly mass. But she'll be accompanied by an overworked male priest who will sit quietly in his chair for the service, then bless the eucharist in the last fifteen minutes, wrap up, and move to the next service.

Also interesting to note, you'll see a much more international crowd with the loss of Mexico and Ireland (and lower travel costs). Expect them to pull more priests from Africa and Asia. In some areas they may even own their own aircraft. The ability to move personnel and artifacts across the world is pretty potent, and seems like a great resource for someone to tap for other purposes (especially if they can be justified as 'God's work'.)

Much appreciated.

Yeah, I figure that Africa, even more than today, is the biggest repository of Christianity in 2073, or, at the least, Catholacism. The CAS is too Protestant to go that way, and probably thinks of itself as "The most Christian nation" to some degree. Yet another reason to growl at Aztlan, I suppose.

"God works in mysterious ways."One of the protagonists I write for has a sister doing Missionary work in Africa as a Nun.

He's playing both sides against each other?

Honestly? I think God hit the bong too heavily one week and sobered up going, "What the hell did I do last week?" while all the Angels were just looking at Him aghast.

...

Can God Hotbox Heaven yet still not get stoned?

Or make a stone heavy enough that even He can't lift it?

Now that's just silly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc2JBtrPpIk

"There's no Devil, it's just God when he's drunk." - Tom Waits

Well, priests that have to officiate at a lot of parishes certainly move around a lot... probably the RCC has negotiated special permissions to bypass most of the normal travelling-checkpoint hassle.

So would the RCC perhaps use corporate extraterritoriality, both to protect itself from tax claims, and to ensure easy movement of priests?

And suppose that local church is located on the land of ChurchCorp, an AA corporation wholly owned by the RCC. Can someone run in, and claim asylum?

A comic writer has taken some cool ideas like this & made it into a series. I haven't read it, but it supposedly combines future dystopia, mecha, vampires, a powerful theocracy/church, & lotsa weapon fire.

Shadowlaw

It makes sense. The Church has always been protective of its secrets, has generally been quite pragmatic in regards to its approach to the law, and has an excellent bunch of lawyers and administrative personnel. If the option is available, why not use it? The only limiter may be that they don't qualify, or the price outweighs the benefits (especially given that they already enjoy tax-free status in many places as a non-profit).

Personally for what it's worth I see the Catholic church as largely irrelevant in the SR world, barely double A mega at best. The return of magic, the changing of established power structures and varrious other items would have presumably excelerated trends already present in the real world. Sure in their area of influence they likely have some unique connections and if you don't have profit driven enterprises to run you can put resources very effectively into specialist fields, guerrilla warfare and others. But I really can't see them as more then a minor power similar to many of the other smaller European nation states.

I dunno, I kinda dig a "Boondock Saints 2072" kind of scenario where Hooders can get asylum in the church...

With on the one hand a big agenda (oppose the wicked, protect the innocent), and on the other hand a need to keep their image clean, the RCC would be a bigtime Mr. Johnson, kinda comparable to the UN when it wants to do stuff the Corporate Court doesn't like.

Father Johnson (with an Irish accent, of course) could be a funny NPC.

"Largest corporation in the world"?

Now i'm curious but I'm deeply skeptical the Catholic church is anywhere to biggest corporation in the world even by today's standards. Now I need to do some research.

Its a quote/paraphrase from the end of the second boondock saints movie. And the RCC is not a corporation, it is a church that has a citystate. They are probably more like the closest thing to a A or AA in the world right now. An actual corporation that is close to an A would be Disney.