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Stormdrake
In the Artifact series of modules Catalyst included a secret sect of priests attempting to recover an artifact that had been "stolen" from one of their ultra secret vaults. As I read it the sect was not the "Templers" or the order of St. Sylvester so was trying to scare up more info on them. This brought me to the question of just what does the Vatican have as resources? some things I can think of off the top of my head are;

*We know they are wealthy beyound the belief of anyone but a great dragon.
*They have thousands of dedicated employee's (priests of multiple orders).
*Significant influnce through the faithfull.
*Vaults of "forbidden" knowledge scattered around the world.
*Significant Matrix presence.
*Small army of Swiss mercenaries.

The more I think about it, you could write up the Catholic Church in Shadowrun as a corporation pretty easily. Has anyone?
Caadium
Don't overlook all of the business entities that they are already involved in in Real Life; entities that would only grow in the world of Shadowrun in my opinion.

One glaring example is health care. Most people have Catholic owned hospitals and healthcare in their area. Do you think they just roll over for Kaiser, or DocWagon (to bring it back to game setting).

I think you are one to something, they could definitely play with the big AAA Corps.

A game of runners that worked for the church (mystical threat hunting, reclaiming artifacts and info that needs to be buried, etc) could be a lot of fun.
Nath
The Catholic Church presence worldwide also constitutes a very efficient intelligence gathering network. When a local priest learn about something happening, even in the most remote areas of Africa or South America, the Vatican can have the info passed on long before the CIA and Reuters learn about it.

Shadowrun adds some new

The New Society of Jesus, or New Jesuits (introduced in the Aztlan sourcebook) protects the catholics in countries like Aztlan or Tir na nOg, where they are persecuted. That is, establishing safe houses to celebrate mass, escorting local bishops when they move around, and spying on the local security services to prevent roundups.

The Order of Saint Sylvester, or Sylvestrines, is dedicated to the use of magic. They run schools for awakened children, perform healing magic in Catholic health and relief operations, ban toxic and evil spirits, and clean the astral space where it is needed.

The New Order of the Temple, or New Templars (introduced in Threats 2) runs black ops. While the New Jesuits try to protect the Church where it is needed, the New Templars action is more about extending the Vatican influence by overthrowing governments, blackmailing influent people, assassinating enemies of the Church... In 2062, there was about 600 "knights" (all magically active priests) and 6000 "sergeants" (priests and deacons, most of them mundane). The knights use the Sylvestrines as a cover, and it is assumed the heads of the Order of Saint Sylvester also are Templars.

The Vigilia Evangelica (introduced in Loose Alliances) is even more secretive and compartmented than these groups. The Vigilia Evangelica have been existing for centuries, to gather and hide knowledge about the previous age of magic and evil forces, storing artifacts and writings in several hidden "Aquinae vaults". Its members can belong to any order of the Catholic Church, hiding their affiliation even from their own hierarchy (so yes, you can have a New Templar posing as a Sylvestrine while actually working for the Vigilia Evangelica).

The Black Lodge (from Threats) has been created by renegade Vigilial Evangelica members who pillaged the original Aquinae vault in the thirteenth century.
CanRay
So... Business as usual for the Catholics. nyahnyah.gif
Wakshaani
http://index.rpg.net/pictures/show-thumbna...p;maxHeight=300

I'm just sayin'...
ravensmuse
Additional info - cut material from Loose Alliances - from Synner, regarding the Black Lodge:

QUOTE (Synner @ Nov 17 2006, 03:43 AM) *
The following section is a summary of what was dropped from the Game Info section of Loose Alliances on the Vigilia Evangelica. It remains unpublished and hence unofficial. I've been saving it in the hope of returning to the Vigilia and the Lodge some day but... I'm not sure I'll be able to revisit them anytime soon, so here's a peek at what I was thinking.

BLACK SECRET
One exception to the Vigilia Evangelica's rule of absolute secrecy is the Black Lodge, for the Lodge and the Vigilia share a secret history. Unbeknownst to anyone outside the order, the Lodge's founders were once the caretakers of one of the original Aquinae Vaults. Some time during the Middle Ages, a brief mana spike released something caged within one of the relics under the Vault's care. An ancient spirit was unleashed and insane from millennia of captivity went on a vengeful rampage, ravaging the abbey it was kept under, killing many of its Black Monks (Cistercians, yep that's where the "Black" in Black Lodge comes from) and Templar knight wardens. However, having depleted its energies, the entity was forced to take refuge in one of the survivors by possessing him and merging their minds as the spike began to ebb.

During convalescence the man became privy to flashes of insight, memories of a secret history of the world. Visions of an Age when the remnant spirit had been a rebel, a Prometheus who had challenged the immortal powers that had then ruled the world and had been brought low and chained for eternity. The monk dreamt that those powers had also survived into this world and were destined to one day return. The spirit weakened urged him to warn the others, to warn the world. Other survivors found enough confirmation of his visions in documents and pre-Classical relics at the Vault that they decided to take the revelations to Rome.

When the then-Pope granted audience and allowed the survivors to speak, the weakened spirit attempted to reveal itself to the Pontiff to warn him of the impending danger. The Pope hadn't realized this was a case of possession and ordered his guards to detain the possessed man and those brethren that had been exposed to him — so that the Inquisition and the Vigilia could perform an exorcism. The Papal Guard was unprepared for even the weakened spirit and his nigh-invulnerable host. Killing several guards, the man escaped using the spirit's power to influence his brethren to flee with him. The fugitives returned to the Melk vault* ahead of their pursuers and took everything they could, convinced that given time Rome would understand the true danger… meanwhile someone must prepare for the war that would follow the return of the Immortals. The escape cost the spirit much of its remaining energies and before falling semi-dormant it offered a Spirit Pact to its vessel, one that would ensure it would be survive to execute its revenge.

Meanwhile, the Vatican did not come round, and the Pope ordered the "traitors" hunted down and burned at the stake. The Vigilia, stung by the betrayal of its sacred duty, obliged bringing all its power to bear. The purges that spelled the end of the original Knights Templar are well known, the inquisition of many Cistercians less so. Despite their best efforts, the possessed and his brethren escaped with the help of friends in the regular clergy… escaped to plan the future, the spirit's pact keeping the man with the vision alive to become known as the Penultimate Master of the Black Lodge.

So it came to pass that the Black Lodge was ready for the return of magic. It has built its own far-reaching shadowy network of influence, fear and power in preparation for a shadow war against the returning Powers. It has manipulated and maneuvered its pawns and agents into positions of power and influence in the highest circles of political, corporate, and of course thaumaturgic power—after all fire can be fought with fire. It has crushed opposition and innocents in its path to power, seeing them as lesser casualties and collateral damage in the great war to come.

Unfortunately for the Lodge, the true story of the schism with the Vigilia has become buried in centuries of bad blood and enemity. Long-forgotten the reason for the Lodge's "treason" all that remains is the memory of the betrayal, to the point that the Vigilia and the Church continue to hunt down the Lodge wherever they come upon its interests — and remain fearful that the Lodge may make a move for one of the remaining Aquinae Vaults and the secrets they harbor.

* The references to the destruction of Melk abbey (both here and in Loose Alliances) are historical, but they're also a tip of the hat to one of my favorite books, one which was inspirational for a lot of the material on the Vigilia.
Stormdrake
Thank you All,
Especially ravenmuse as that was the information I was looking for. Could not remember the name of the Vigilia Evangelica's or the Black Lodge. Am going to try and write up the Roman Catholic Church as a mega and will post it for comment.
Dr.Rockso
Look forward to seeing it.
ShadowJackal
QUOTE (Stormdrake @ Nov 4 2011, 03:37 PM) *
Thank you All,
Especially ravenmuse as that was the information I was looking for. Could not remember the name of the Vigilia Evangelica's or the Black Lodge. Am going to try and write up the Roman Catholic Church as a mega and will post it for comment.


This is thoroughly relevant to my interests.
ggodo
QUOTE (CanRay @ Nov 3 2011, 06:34 PM) *
So... Business as usual for the Catholics. nyahnyah.gif

Yeah, pretty much, actually. It's amazing that something so factionalized is ever seen as a united front.
Method
I'm currently working on a Missions character who was a Syvestrine magician sent to Seattle by the New Templars to conduct covert operations against Aztechnology. He got blow'd up while guarding an archbishop at a political rally in support of the Yucatan rebellion and now he's a little crazy... well a lot crazy actually. Should be a lot of fun to play.
Stormdrake
Is the name of the Pope in 2072 mentioned in any of the recent books?
Paul
I swear I saw that somewhere. If someone doesn't beat to the punch I'll try to look it up.
MK Ultra
I am sure there is information in Shadows of Europe - might be dated since the crash, but I don´t remember reading anything in Almanach..
Daylen
I imagine Catholics will be much unchanged.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8
Nath
According to the Sixth World Almanac, John XXV, since 2013. He is now 108 years old.
CanRay
Leonization is a wonderful thing. nyahnyah.gif
Paul
QUOTE (Nath @ Nov 4 2011, 03:04 PM) *
According to the Sixth World Almanac, John XXV, since 2013. He is now 108 years old.


Scooped. Damn it.
Sengir
QUOTE (CanRay @ Nov 4 2011, 09:06 PM) *
Leonization is a wonderful thing. nyahnyah.gif

Assuming he needs such treatment...
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Sengir @ Nov 5 2011, 08:19 AM) *
Assuming he needs such treatment...


As much as the catholics might have embraced the other metahumans faster than other religions, I don't see them promoting them to the position of Cardinals, imagine to elect one as Pope.
Daylen
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Nov 5 2011, 02:19 PM) *
As much as the catholics might have embraced the other metahumans faster than other religions, I don't see them promoting them to the position of Cardinals, imagine to elect one as Pope.


Who says the reason leonization is not needed has to do with metas?

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/File:Zo...by_Juan_Doe.jpg
Brazilian_Shinobi
Hehe, again, I don't think the catholics would like a zombie or even an Infected as Pope, eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ would have a WHOLE NEW MEANING!
HunterHerne
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Nov 5 2011, 01:36 PM) *
Hehe, again, I don't think the catholics would like a zombie or even an Infected as Pope, eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ would have a WHOLE NEW MEANING!


I'm thinking more along the lines of a Spirit Pact, specifically, a formula pact, which grants Immunity to Age. Now what would be powerful enough to be allowed to make a formula pact with the Pope?

Edit: And it could have been the catalyst for the whole switcharound the Catholics did as far as magic being evil.
Daylen
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Nov 5 2011, 04:36 PM) *
Hehe, again, I don't think the catholics would like a zombie or even an Infected as Pope, eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ would have a WHOLE NEW MEANING!


I take it you assume most would know? What fun would that be?
Sengir
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Nov 5 2011, 03:19 PM) *
As much as the catholics might have embraced the other metahumans faster than other religions, I don't see them promoting them to the position of Cardinals, imagine to elect one as Pope.

Well, not consciously wink.gif

But if the Pope was born a spike baby his parents probably had the minor congenital abnormality with his ears corrected and everybody is none the wiser...
HunterHerne
QUOTE (Sengir @ Nov 5 2011, 02:37 PM) *
Well, not consciously wink.gif

But if the Pope was born a spike baby his parents probably had the minor congenital abnormality with his ears corrected and everybody is none the wiser...


That wouldn't work, I think. From what I can tell, the earliest born elves, including the spike babies, still appear no more then their early to mid 20's. And i don't think the height of Dwarves is that easy to "correct".
Stormdrake
When is Loose Allience going to be released or did I miss it?

Never mind I forgot it was a 3rd edition book.
Ascalaphus
Is anyone else reminded of Neal Stephenson's novel Interface, where someone offhandedly remarks that only five groups are capable of real long-term planning, one of which is the Catholic Church?
kzt
Boeing, timberland management companies and a few others routinely plan and execute 10-20 year plans, but they are few and far between.

Most of the worlds governments and corps can't plan more then 4 years, and anything after 12 months is a hazy bunch of handwaving. Hence we have the current financial disasters approaching as all the insane public pensions that were never properly funded threaten to consume essentially every dollar of tax revenue, leaving none to provide any services to the taxpayers funding this. Yeah, that will work. ...
Daylen
QUOTE (kzt @ Nov 6 2011, 09:23 PM) *
Boeing, timberland management companies and a few others routinely plan and execute 10-20 year plans, but they are few and far between.

Most of the worlds governments and corps can't plan more then 4 years, and anything after 12 months is a hazy bunch of handwaving. Hence we have the current financial disasters approaching as all the insane public pensions that were never properly funded threaten to consume essentially every dollar of tax revenue, leaving none to provide any services to the taxpayers funding this. Yeah, that will work. ...

Timberland companies used to have 50-100 year plans. Now they don't, and the timber industry in the US is going down...

Much of the shortsightedness in the USA is from the investment style. We have publicly traded companies and retirement funds holding most of the companies and production, both of these have to worry about how things are doing THIS quarter. When you are worried about this quarter there can be no very long term plan.
Inu
The Catholic Church isn't very rich at all unless you count their artwork and buildings -- most of these aren't real wealth, however. They can't sell them to raise cash, they can't even borrow against them by internal law (because that would risk losing them). Most of the artworks are insured for a value of one euro to ensure this -- it's a statement that they are literally priceless, and you can't borrow against something that's priceless.

The Vatican IS wealthy, but not on so grand a scale as it suggested. Ignore Dan Brown, he's wrong on writing, wrong on plot, wrong on history, wrong on Batman. in 2072 I can't imagine that it's any more wealthy, since it's been haemorrhaging members since the Awakening. that said, I CAN imagine that those left are the more hardcore ones who might donate more, thus providing money for certain esoteric pursuits like the Sylvestrians.

Nath did make an excellent point about its intelligence-gathering. The thing about the Church is that while it's not phenomenally wealthy (far less than most megacorps -- it probably wouldn't even make A grade), it's able to do one hell of a lot with less, as it can do it on the cheap. It might not be able to sell its buildings, but it can house priests in them cheaply, thus maintaining a presence for limited investment. It would still get a lot of volunteer labour.

So what it has is -- land, people and goodwill. I don't think we're likely to see legions of borged up laser-wielding Vatican troops. What we would see are mages and informants, and that's scary enough. If they did sport high tech, it would likely be 'donated' by high-ranking members of other organisations (say, a devoted churchmember in Ares' procurement division).

And that's how you keep the Vatican distinct from the other entities out there.
Glyph
The RCC's handling in Shadowrun is another example of why I lean pink mohawk - I can't take the setting seriously enough to do black trenchcoat. You have them react in a blind panic to the awakening, despite supposedly having all of these secret orders that knew it was coming all along. You have frikkin' Ireland and Mexico becoming non-Catholic-dominated countries (one apparently going back to pagan Aztec rituals and one becoming a racist elven nation), but at the same time you supposedly have a bunch of Protestant denominations rejoining the Catholics in a highly unlikely bit of ecemunicism (if anything, I think the awakening would splinter things even further). spin.gifrollin.gifspin.gif

But I treat it like the NAN. It's goofy, roll with it. The RCC in Shadowrun does not really have anything to do with the real one - so you can have all of the conspiracies, secret organizations, and whatnot that you want.
Daylen
QUOTE (Inu @ Nov 7 2011, 01:04 AM) *
The Catholic Church isn't very rich at all unless you count their artwork and buildings -- most of these aren't real wealth, however. They can't sell them to raise cash, they can't even borrow against them by internal law (because that would risk losing them). Most of the artworks are insured for a value of one euro to ensure this -- it's a statement that they are literally priceless, and you can't borrow against something that's priceless.

The Vatican IS wealthy, but not on so grand a scale as it suggested. Ignore Dan Brown, he's wrong on writing, wrong on plot, wrong on history, wrong on Batman. in 2072 I can't imagine that it's any more wealthy, since it's been haemorrhaging members since the Awakening. that said, I CAN imagine that those left are the more hardcore ones who might donate more, thus providing money for certain esoteric pursuits like the Sylvestrians.

Nath did make an excellent point about its intelligence-gathering. The thing about the Church is that while it's not phenomenally wealthy (far less than most megacorps -- it probably wouldn't even make A grade), it's able to do one hell of a lot with less, as it can do it on the cheap. It might not be able to sell its buildings, but it can house priests in them cheaply, thus maintaining a presence for limited investment. It would still get a lot of volunteer labour.

So what it has is -- land, people and goodwill. I don't think we're likely to see legions of borged up laser-wielding Vatican troops. What we would see are mages and informants, and that's scary enough. If they did sport high tech, it would likely be 'donated' by high-ranking members of other organisations (say, a devoted churchmember in Ares' procurement division).

And that's how you keep the Vatican distinct from the other entities out there.


They are not poor by any measure.
CanRay
But their power has taken a kick to the sensitive parts after one Pope made the stupid mistake of saying all those beautiful Elven and Dwarven Babies are OF THE DEVIL!

Hasn't really recovered from that. Especially after magic started coming back, and I'm sure more than one order started piling up the tinder and setting up witch trials.

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" after all, despite it being a mistranslation.
Daylen
QUOTE (CanRay @ Nov 7 2011, 02:53 AM) *
... I'm sure more than one order started piling up the tinder and setting up witch trials.

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" after all, despite it being a mistranslation.


How? The Church hasn't exactly made the laws of nations for some time nor had any lawful power outside the Vatican itself. Plus Catholics didn't burn the witches in Salem, that was protestant puritans. The Rulers of Spain only tried to use the threat of witches to try and stamp out Muslim invaders.
CanRay
Let's see... VITAS Plagues, Night of Rage, and a dozen other things that would have allowed some Priests/Nuns or even whole Orders of them allowed to influence people in strange and violent ways.

In the Service of God, and to save people's souls, of course.

Really, read the history of Shadowrun during the 2000s-2030s sometime. It's a hell of a time that makes the 20-years gamers have played in look like a bloody cakewalk!

Hell, I even have the idea of two different orders... Well now, that'd be telling. vegm.gif
Sengir
QUOTE (Inu @ Nov 7 2011, 01:04 AM) *
The Catholic Church isn't very rich at all unless you count their artwork and buildings -- most of these aren't real wealth, however. They can't sell them to raise cash, they can't even borrow against them by internal law (because that would risk losing them). Most of the artworks are insured for a value of one euro to ensure this -- it's a statement that they are literally priceless, and you can't borrow against something that's priceless.

The "old" churches have far more properties than sacral buildings and art treasures -- and I'm not talking about the scrap value of fifty gazillion real nails from Jesus' cross.
Over the course of time, countless people have inherited part of their properties "to the church". Even without everything that was disowned or lost in various wars and revolutions, the European churches still own vast amounts of completely secular liquid assets, real estate, and corp shares. Weltbild sure doesn't look like a religious bookstore, but nevertheless is owned 100% by the Catholic Church of Germany.



However, there is one thing which SR and many other works (especially from the US) tend to get wrong about the Vatican, namely the supposed homogeneous obedience to the official teachings. Just because one of the old geezers in Rome declares that metas have no soul, Catholics worldwide wouldn't snap their heels and pick up the torches as one man. There are some places where they would. But as with all sectarian violence, those places would have a long history of violence and tensions.
ShadowJackal
QUOTE (Inu @ Nov 7 2011, 12:04 AM) *
The Catholic Church isn't very rich at all unless you count their artwork and buildings -- most of these aren't real wealth, however. They can't sell them to raise cash, they can't even borrow against them by internal law (because that would risk losing them). Most of the artworks are insured for a value of one euro to ensure this -- it's a statement that they are literally priceless, and you can't borrow against something that's priceless.

The art is not priceless. It goes to auction, someone will be there with hundreds of millions of dollars to purchase a great work owned by the Catholic Church. I've seen it happen on a small scale. I'm positive that if the Church was going belly up they'd privately sell a few of the lesser known treasures and buffer their bank account. They could have done so already for all we know. The art collection that is held by the Catholic church is probably the most valuable in the world by far.

You also have to remember the large amount of mafia that is Catholic. I doubt they'd like to see their church seize to exist.


QUOTE (Sengir @ Nov 7 2011, 01:27 PM) *
However, there is one thing which SR and many other works (especially from the US) tend to get wrong about the Vatican, namely the supposed homogeneous obedience to the official teachings. Just because one of the old geezers in Rome declares that metas have no soul, Catholics worldwide wouldn't snap their heels and pick up the torches as one man. There are some places where they would. But as with all sectarian violence, those places would have a long history of violence and tensions.


This is an important thought. There are many liberal Catholics that consider themselves Catholic but do not believe the social theories of the church. Myself included. There's even a more formal Liberal Catholic Church.
Sengir
QUOTE (tehana @ Nov 7 2011, 03:47 PM) *
You also have to remember the large amount of mafia that is Catholic.

In name...
In practice I see little the mafia would lose if Pete's Fishing Club went out of business.

QUOTE
This is an important thought. There are many liberal Catholics that consider themselves Catholic but do not believe the social theories of the church. Myself included. There's even a more formal Liberal Catholic Church.

Well, I wouldn't describe my father as particularly liberal (by German standards, again something that is different across different places), that didn't stop him from threatening to arraign the archbishop for fraud. My parents were living in a flat that belonged to the Archdiocese of Paderborn, and the gas bill had been somewhat retconned...
ShadowJackal
QUOTE (Sengir @ Nov 7 2011, 04:24 PM) *
In name...
In practice I see little the mafia would lose if Pete's Fishing Club went out of business.


You might be surprised.
Sengir
QUOTE (tehana @ Nov 7 2011, 04:27 PM) *
You might be surprised.

Only one way to find out, try to surprise me wink.gif
Did they reactivate the rat lines for mobsters?
CanRay
I'm waiting for Mafia members who snitch to go up in flames like that picture of the saint they held in their hand...
ShadowJackal
QUOTE (Sengir @ Nov 7 2011, 08:50 PM) *
Only one way to find out, try to surprise me wink.gif
Did they reactivate the rat lines for mobsters?


All I'm going to say is that if you dig around enough with key phrases like "Vatican" "'Ndrangheta" and "Cosa Nostra" you'll find something of interest.
kzt
QUOTE (CanRay @ Nov 7 2011, 03:40 PM) *
I'm waiting for Mafia members who snitch to go up in flames like that picture of the saint they held in their hand...

IT should work like that in SR.
Stormdrake
Keep in mind that in the Shadowrun universe the RCC has reaquired direct control of almost all of the old papal states thanks to the Templer order.
CanRay
QUOTE (kzt @ Nov 7 2011, 07:19 PM) *
IT should work like that in SR.
It does for one group of OC. Maybe the mana level needs to be higher?
kzt
QUOTE (CanRay @ Nov 7 2011, 04:36 PM) *
It does for one group of OC. Maybe the mana level needs to be higher?

More likely the writers are not imaginative/thoughtful enough. Oaths like that are obvious pathways by which to access magic.
CanRay
QUOTE (kzt @ Nov 7 2011, 11:48 PM) *
More likely the writers are not imaginative/thoughtful enough. Oaths like that are obvious pathways by which to access magic.
Not true, one of the Organized Crime groups *DO* burst into flames, or fall apart like they were cut 1,000 times, or some such. I just can't for the life of me remember which group it was.

The Mafia is kind of hit-or-miss when it comes to magic anyhow, with some families using it and others not, while some OCs embrace magic wholeheartedly.
kzt
QUOTE (CanRay @ Nov 7 2011, 09:18 PM) *
Not true, one of the Organized Crime groups *DO* burst into flames, or fall apart like they were cut 1,000 times, or some such. I just can't for the life of me remember which group it was.

That was only done very recently, I forget the publication: Vice? But it has been the kind of thing that should have been part of SR since forever.
Sengir
QUOTE (kzt @ Nov 8 2011, 12:19 AM) *
IT should work like that in SR.

Well, that doesn't require any magic wink.gif
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