Nope. I think Tymeaus Jalynsfein covered this just fine, but what you call "indisputable" is, in fact, incorrect.


No, that will simply never happen, because any time you need to compute the concrete distance, you perform the same calculation you do for metahumans.


Why can't a character jump into and control 5 vehicles in a single initiative pass? Obviously not every character can do it, but it's absolutely possible. I'm just not sure what you mean by this.


No, it's a Simple Action normally [SR4a, p229], a Free Action if you have the "More than Metahuman" Quality [Unwired, p37]. You also don't "give orders" if you're jumped in: you directly control the drone, seeing through its Sensors as your senses, and acting with it as if you were it. You can "give orders" [issue commands] to other drones, but not the one you're jumped into. [Well, actually, I don't see any reason you couldn't issue commands to the drone you were in, and just sit back and let it do stuff, but that's neither here nor there.]


Yes, and the answer was pretty obviously, "concrete," since it's meter-specific and second-specific. I'm sorry, but your idea that Shadowrun doesn't have a concrete positioning and movement system is directly contradicted by the litany of concrete positioning and movement rules we're talking about.

[That's twice now. You're not just doing that so I look like a crazy grammar Nazi when I point it out, are you? 'Cause you don't have to work this hard to make me look like a crazy grammar Nazi. ]


The example on SR4a, p149: "Twitch the elf samurai is chasing down an opponent. He’s an elf, so his Running Rate is 25 meters per Combat Turn. This particular Combat Turn is three Initiative Passes long, so he moves (25 ÷ 3) 8 meters per pass." No mixed movement. Also very concrete. I get what you're saying about them explicitly mentioning mixed movement, but the fact is, this is the only way to calculate movement, even if the rule weren't already written! If you move 10 meters per 3 seconds, and there were 5 passes in those three seconds, than at the beginning of the second pass, you'll have moved 2 meters: the only alternative is for people to be teleporting around, and that certainly isn't supported by any rules. Where's any mention, explicit, implicit, example, or logic, that characters should teleport around the battlefield?

I'm not trying to be a dick [which is why I've rewritten this sentence about a dozen times now, including this late edit] but perhaps the problems you're having with the rules stem not from the rules themselves, but from an incomplete understanding of them? If you don't know how jumping into a drone works, or how movement in Shadowrun is calculated, I can totally see how some of these issues could become problematic. What I would do is learn the Shadowrun rules as they're written, and play with them for a while, and then identify the problems you're having with them. That's what I'm trying to do!

a drone pilot still drives the drone, and so fulfill the condition of driver in the text. That the damage section brings up passengers do not make said rules exclusive to passenger carrying vehicles either.

Okay, but practically every car also has a Pilot. So why is it even mentioned in the text? Why is "Pilot" not mentioned in any context in that section?

For people who don't know, the rule I'm talking about is on SR4a, p168. [Not 178, where the description for Ice Sheet sends you. Seriously, I've got to stop buying first printings.] It goes a little something like this: "Drivers must spend at least one Complex Action each turn driving their vehicle, or the vehicle goes out of control at the end of the Combat Turn. Apply a –2 dice pool modifier to all actions by characters in an uncontrolled vehicle. If the driver does not make a Vehicle Test to regain control of the vehicle in one Combat Turn, it crashes."

So the question I'm asking is, does that go for all vehicles, including drones? It would appear to, but that doesn't make any sense: the drone's Pilot drives it when I'm not around, so why does it suddenly need me in this context? And if drones don't need a "driving" test every turn, why would any other vehicle, since all [contemporary] vehicles have Pilots? This has to have been brought up a bazillion times; does anyone know what the resolution is? Or is this just a bad rule?

"Practically" is the word. Still lots of old beaters in the Barrens that don't have Pilots. Or sensors. Or headlights. Or taillights. Or wheels. Or engines. Or transmissions. Or doors. Or...

if you get in and tell the onboard drone pilot "drive to dante's", then it is the driver of the vehicle. Now if you later grab the wheel or activate AR/VR controls you become the driver. Seems to me the whole argument hinges on driver not being a defined term anywhere in the text and so can be interpreted to be metahuman, electronic, neither, both, local, remote or some bowl of pasta in the sky...

Which seems perfectly reasonable to me, but then why have the rule at all? With the exception of beaters in the Barrens, as CanRay points out - older cars, in other words - everything has a Pilot, so a car is never going to be driverless, because even if you just jump out while it's moving, the Pilot will continue operating the car. It seems as if the rule isn't necessary, or else should be re-written with Pilots, multiple IPs, and multiple possible jumping-intos in mind.

Belt and suspenders. Better to have it and not need it, then not have it and be yelled at for the lack of such.

Hell, there have been real life fighter jet crashes where the pilot reflexes and the fly by wire system ended up fighting over control of the jet during a near-stall/spin.

anyways, the transfer is less then instant. At least the current metahuman driver would have to spend a simple action ordering the drone pilot to take over, or else the pilot would not know if it has control or the metahuman behind the wheel has. I think real life pilots have a very explicit way to announce who has control at any given time for just such reasons.

The rules imply the bottleneck in that situation is not the drone, but the rigger, since taking the "More Than Metahuman" Quality eliminates the one-Simple-Action delay. Rigged actions also countermand any other type of action [including Pilot and remote control], so the Pilot in essence needs zero time to regain control, since it effectively never needs to stop trying to have control, anyway; it's the metahuman who [without the Quality] needs the moment to adjust.

heh, i have not memorized all the various qualities and such that could be relevant to this.

and i was operating from the position of someone using AR or physical controls, not jumped in as a rigger.

Why chase rules? Because we want to duplicate something we did in GTAIII/GTA: VC/GTA: SA/Saints Row 1, 2, or 3.

I misspoke slightly. When you're jumped-in to a vehicle, you don't "issue commands", you "perform maneuvers". Which, really, amount to the same thing, but is admittedly somewhat vague of me. My apologies. At any event, actually getting a drone/vehicle you're jumped into to do something takes an action, and you've only got a limited number of those in a combat turn. Jumping into 5 different vehicles and telling them to do 5 different things is impractical, to say the least.


Honestly, you'll notice that I've never presented myself as an expert on the SR4.5 rules, at least not in comparison to people like Glyph and Toturi. I don't even own a hardcopy of the 4.5 rules, I have the errata and main changes sheet on pdf. However, that doesn't change the fact that the movement rules do cause problems. If you read the rules closely, movement is supposed to occur simultaneously across the entire phase by your reading: you can track that in a tick-based system, like Exalted, but not in a turn-based system like SR4.5.

At any event, I've played with the rules enough to know they don't work for the games I run-- games where fun is the most important element, as opposed to whatever GNS spectrum others might prefer. I freely admit I play fast and loose with the rules, so I have something that works instead of two-hour rules arguments like I did when SR4.0 first came out. My understanding of the rules isn't perfect, but it's enough to know what doesn't work for me-- and what doesn't work mechanically to support certain styles of play.

Without 5 IPs and the "More Than Metahuman" Quality, it's not "impractical," it's "impossible." But with those things, jumping into 5 different drones [and, again, not telling them to take action, but taking action yourself, as the drone,] is absolutely possible, and absolutely practical. I do it every couple of weeks. [Although my character loses a lot of his 5 IPs checking BBSs and researching ASIST-related brain damage. ]


Hey, join the club, pal: you'll get no disrespect from me for not memorizing the SR4a rigging rules! Obviously, I don't know every single one, either, or I wouldn't be asking questions about how they work. But that's the thing: because I don't understand, I'm asking questions, not condemning.


We've already quoted the rules, and you can easily track movement across the entire phase using them. I know this for a fact because we, a) know this rule, b) use this rule, and c) we can track movement across the entire phase using them. You didn't know the rule, so you weren't using the rule, so my suggestion was that you learn the rule, use it, and then decide if it works for you: it totally might not! But you've got to try it before you knock it, or at least know it before you knock it.


I'm sorry, but I think that's demonstrably untrue. You've repeatedly shown you don't know these rules, which is fine, because most of us don't! But saying, "the movement rules don't work," when you've shown at great length that you don't understand how they actually work [that they enable 1 IP characters to beat 4 IP characters in a race, for example], isn't reasonable.

You don't have to admit anything to us, or show any kind of weakness, or whatever: do what you've got to do; I don't want chest-thumping between you and me to be a barrier. I'm just suggesting that you get the rules right, and then stomp on them, 'cause then you'll be stomping on the right ones. Just my suggestion, take it, leave it, burn an effigy of me, whatever.

This exchange of postings (it's not a discussion anymore) is going nowhere.

I'm sorry, Grinder, I can't help it.

You're saying that this high-speed chase scene is going nowhere?

EDIT: Ooops... Already answered. Never Mind.

Ok, back to the chase rules:

What I'm seeing right now: The chase rules as written are meant to be fast and loose. Neither realism nor accuracy, let along detail, are supposed to be a factor, the goal was clearly to just roll lots of dice and somehow get a result. Their game design quality is very low, it's like some guy came up with them on the fly to allow his players to do a chase scene, all the while hoping they wouldn't look through and break his rules. He never even THOUGHT about corner cases. The rules also imply all those things that people call out as problems are actually in their by design: You're supposed to be able to make up for skill or speed by teamwork. Mode of travelling is not supposed to be an issue, and the rules actually work transparently in that case. The helo and car issue is not covered because it seems to me that they designers thought that it would be ok for cars to follow helos - after all, it happens in movies. Clearly some maneuvers don't work in that case, like jumping from one vehicle to another at "close" distance (except down, I guess). There is also no need to Rule #1 anything much, because a lot of the problems are - or seem to be - intentional.

I was going to dive into some concrete examples, but I don't have my 4A book right now, and the 4th edition rules are... really, really basic.

What I think might end up useful is making a fundamental change to the game: (unless I'm once again missing something, mind you I don't actually play 4A, I only play 4th)
You need to be able to make opposed tests with modifiers AND thresholds! This is really the same fix as was suggested for ranged combat.

And then you could use the modified vehicle test with a threshold for the initial opposed vehicle tests. And that solves a lot of problems, IMHO.

I find I tend to do one of two things when there are vehicles chasing one another in the game. If the vehicles are trying to kill one another (ramming, using weapons, and passengers and/or bystanders are shooting, casting, hacking or commanding spirits), then it's Tactical. If the vehicles are racing, following, or some other variation of getting from Point A to Point B, then I just go by a general control test, eyeball the speeds of the vehicles involved, and wing the rest. Since almost all the chases that come up are ones where the characters involved are trying to stop the vehicle they are chasing or the vehicles that are chasing them, this means that the majority of chases I've run have been Tactical.

The tactical chase rules are pretty bare bones, but that's okay. Melee combat is a pretty simple process (full disclosure: my group has never incorporated any martial arts rules, and the only specializations on Unarmed Combat are Attack and Defense), but it still manages to cover any of the myriad of ways people would try to beat each other up. I'd like to see some more options other than "perform a maneuver" and "ram" but really that just means coming up with a few more tests and figuring out how they'd work.

My wish list on something like that would be a few defensive and offensive driving maneuvers (other than ramming) and some way to incorporate the speed and mass of the vehicle into the threshold of the control test (to represent it's harder to make a tight turn in a garbage truck than it is on a coupe, but it's harder for the coupe to force the truck off the road).

heh, is this the right time for me to admit that i had overlooked the issue that terrain modifiers had become treshold modifiers and so have zero application to the opposed test at the opening of each round? Shows how similar to SR3 rules the SR4 chase rules really are, as there they where difficulty modifiers that affected said test (and resulting in some bellyaching about the chase rules being to heavy as one had 3-4 variables to keep track of each round, vehicle handling, terrain, speed and the test outcome). Also, the issue of threshold shows up in the VR/jumped in mode. This as it provides a threshold modifier, not a pool modifier. I wonder if a better idea would be to have a system for converting threshold to pool modifiers during opposed tests. Perhaps a 3 dice for 1 threshold ratio (to mimic the 3 dice, 1 hit of the dice rolls).

edit: to some degree the handing rating determines what your looking for, Mercer. Except that it affects the pool rather then the threshold. Meh, i wonder if one could just convert the whole terrain modifier table into a pool modifier table by putting a - before the number and multiplying by 3. This then also resulting in a +3 from going VR rather then the -1 threshold it gives right now.

Or on second thought, maybe 2:1 would be more in line with SR modifiers...

Handling does a little of what I want it to, but not quite enough. By way of example, let's say two vehicles are making a tight turn at high speed. One is the sporty, sleek Eurocar Westwind and the other is a GMC Bulldog Stepvan. There's only a two dice difference in their handling, which is fairly negligible, but it would seem like the sports car have a significantly easier time of it, all else being equal.

To me, it comes down to the Threshold (base difficulty + terrain mod) when the driver is interacting with the terrain (making a turn, pulling a Rockford and so on), and Opposed when the driver is interacting with another driver. When a driver is forcing another driver to make a control test (trying to run them off the road, doing a PIT maneuver, etc), it might be the attackers net hits as a modifier to the threshold of the control test. That's listed as an option on a vehicle rule quick sheet I have, but I'm not sure where that rule is.

In a situation where one driver is simply trying to lose a pursuer, he'd basically be trying to pull off high threshold maneuvers and hoping the drivers behind him can't keep up.

The "cut off" maneuver is a opposed vehicle test where the net hits acts as a negative modifier to the following crash test (if any).

Hmm, seems like the only place a opposed vehicle test do not involve short range (and therefor the terrain can have a serious impact) is at the start of each turn. Other times it happens within short range...

Yeah, this drives me crazy. I would much rather have +3 die pool than -1 Threshold.

But I think all the modifiers for AR > Cold VR > Hot VR are stupid. So is the +2 from the Control Rig. But at some point it's hard to tell if I'm not liking it because it doesn't work within the context of SR4, or because I prefer SR2/3.

Ok, so, my suggested fix for the Vehicle rules, using as much as possible of what's there: (All the wording quoted belongs to their respective owners, I'm citing per fair use and yada yada):

Reasonings first: The vehicle rules look fast and loose, but they are just one of those: Loose. My revision does not change this. However, I'll attempt to clear up some problems I'm seeing, especially for the Break action and the teamwork rules. Also, I want varying speed chases to be possible, but harder.

Chase Combat Revised

Chase combat is resolved as an abstracted mechanic that ignores a lot of the details that are actually happening. It is designed to definitely resolve the scenario in which one party must evade another or reach an objective in a certain amount of time. Races are also possible, even though in that case the quarry must be changed to whoever is in the lead. It is rather less useful for a head-on tank-battle, and the like, because a lot hinges on the position of the quarry. Without one, certain things don't work.

Speed category:
The speed category is defined by the appropriate and possible speed in the respective terrain for each vehicle. Generally this is determined via the degree of obstruction. We'll define the following degrees:
Free airspace (300kph = 250 speed rating)
Highway or urban airspace (low-flying) (160kph = 130 speed rating)
Extra-Urban, paved road (80 120kph= 100 speed rating)
Extra-Urban, dirt road (50 70kph = 60 speed rating)
Urban (50 70kph = 60 speed rating)

The GM assigns the dominant, prevalent speed category for the chase. This is generally the highest speed of a relevant participant. (For instance it's not the speed of the police helicopter when the chase is underground.) For each 10kphspeed points a participant cannot match this category, apply a -1 penalty to the opposed vehicle test. Any vehicle whose DP is reduced to 0 cannot affect the Break stunt, nor can it affect teamwork, i.e. does not count for a teamwork bonus. For every 20kph speed points a participant exceeds this speed category, apply a +1 DP mod. This replaces all other speed related modifiers in other parts of chase combat.

Impossibility modifier: It is not possible for a boat on a confined body of water to follow an air or ground target by anything other than sensors, if they are not also following the body of water. It is impossible for a helictopter to follow a car into tunnels. Whenever impossibility of a similar type occurs, make a sensor roll against the target's signature, and apply the relevant modifiers, taking into account the actions, ranges and positions of the previous turn. If it fails, the vehicle is in an impossible situation and leaves the chase. If it succeeds, the vehicle can continue to give a teamwork bonus, but cannot take part in the opposed vehicle test, nor do stunts.

Sides and Teamwork: Teamwork on a Side can make up for individual defects of a side. Team-mates can shortcut, pass by and cut off, or do other useful things. Large entities like police forces can even get team-mates into the chase at entirely different areas to cut a target off. Each relevant excess vehicles on one side gives a +2 DP mod to each vehicle on that side, limited by the driver's reaction or the pilot's rating, rounded up to the next full multiple of 2.

Similar or identical vehicles on a side can be treated as a Team. Teams are tracked by domain and engagement range. For instance, if a group of runners use two sports cars and three roto-drones to chase a truck with its escort of two off-road vehicles, then the relevant teams are cars, drones, truck, and off-roaders. Do note that using teams is only supposed to cut down on rolling and paperwork while still giving the possibility of not lumping each and every vehicle on a side together into one engagement range. Teams use the worse vehicle stats of each participating vehicle, and an average of the piloting skills. A team does its opposed vehicle test as well as stunts as one entity. They are put in one engagement range. However, crash tests and the like are made by each vehicle individually. Damage is applied individually, but again a damage modifier is applied to ALL vehicles of the team. For this reason, it could be smart for damaged vehicles to break off, if they can, once the damage mod exceeds their teamwork benefit.

Pre-initial stepDetermine whether a chase combat is necessary. It's necessary at any time where there is a clear conflict of interest between the players' actions and plans and an NPC party, where one of these wants to evade the other while in vehicles. Also, to be necessary, it has to be determined that success for the PCs' side is not guaranteed. However, if, on the other hand, failure for the PCs is virtually guaranteed, it is fair to still offer to let the dice speak. After all, who knows? [This goes by standard GMing philosophy: Say Yes, or roll the dice. Simply saying no should only happen in really obvious, extreme cases.]

Initial steps:
Define prevalent speed category. Apply DP mods for each participant.
Define teams. Apply teamwork mods to each vehicle or team.
Assign initial engagement ranges. These can be assigned either by the GM, if NPCs are chasing or the situation demands it, or by the players if they are starting from a prepared, superior position.

With the numbers in place one more time gauge the necessity of even running the chase combat. If one party is clearly out-matched, don't run it, unless the players absolutely demand it be run.

Make a Chase Chart:
The Chase Chart is just a series of boxes: On the left, make a box for the quarry, including all vehicles at short range. Successively further right, make boxes for each engagement range, partitioned into the domains available, usually land+air, or water+air. Place all teams or vehicles in their respective ranges. Use pencil or provide ample space, since erasing/moving will happen. Each box counts as its own individual close range, and increments can be counted to all other ranges. If necessary, it is possible to not put all vehicles at a certain range in one box, simply partition the box to create a new box. It might also be possible to add increment coordinates in up to two other directions. This is a matter of desired complexity.
For example, Runners are trying to escape from a Lone Star squad car, at present at long range. The cops have called for backup to cut the runners off. The backup will also enter at long range, but from an entirely different direction, as a new team, and be quite far away from either other party. The GM draws a new box for the backup to create a triangle with legs to both the original squad car and the runner team, adding in increment boxes on the way.

Chase combat turn:
Chase combat is in many ways similar to regular combat. Here is the sequence for resolving Chase combat:
Step 1: Roll Terrain for each domain involved (land, air, sea, whatever), split up by the engagement ranges present from last turn.
Step 2. Opposed Vehicle Test, using threshold and modifiers for the terrain each participant is situated in; note net hits (or increment of failure) for each participant. If no specific outcome is desired or necessary and no stunt is necessary this test can be used in place of the vehicle test to control the vehicle later in the turn. Net hits are not added to the next opposed test in this case. The winner can stage his engagement range up or down by one increment for every enemy vehicle he has beaten.
Step 3. Roll Initiative. Roll Initiative as usual. All the normal rules for Initiative apply.
Step 4. Begin Chase Combat Turn.
Step 5. Declare Action/Stunts. Instead of actions, vehicles execute stunts. Like regular combat, stunts may be Free, Simple, or Complex. See Chase Stunts.
Step 6. Resolve Actions/Stunts by Initiative Order. Resolve as normal, from highest Initiative Score to lowest.
Step 7. Resolve Actions/Stunts in subsequent passes.
Step 8. End of Chase Turn. The Chase Turn ends. Go back to
Step 9. Continue resolving chase combat until all opposing vehicles involved have crashed, broken off, or been destroyed.


Terrain Roll Table: The Terrain is determined for each participant or group of participants in the same domain and engagement range. For instance all cars following at long range get the same condition. The GM chooses the predominant conditions at the beginning of the chase, based on the actions and intent of each party. For instance, if a group of runners are trying to hijack a truck during rush hour, that's the predominand condition (heavy traffic).

Roll a d6. Pick thresholds and threshold mods from vehicle test threshold or terrain table:
1: Temporary detriment: Ground: Congestion; Air: alert by air traffic controller that vehicle is entering busy airways; flocks of drones, or whatever; Water: Sandbanks or Port with heavy traffic
2: Temporary improvement: Ground: sudden opening; Air: open air; water: open water;
3: sudden obstacle; all affected must Maneuver to avoid; Roll a d6 for type of obstacle, on a scale where 1 is a dog-sized animal or large bird, and 6 is a 30ton truck, adjusting for domain.
4: predominant condition
5: predominant condition
6: predominant condition changes: Roll a d6, even for one step better, odds for one step worse. This carries over.

Do note that the greatest random base threshold is 2 (for avoiding obstacle) and the highest random threshold mod is +4, for heavy traffic. Anything else happens voluntarily!

Opposed Vehicle Test[Edit]

The opposed vehicle test is meant to gauge which vehicles either gain distance or are caught up. Using the DP mods established previously for speed, visual conditions, etc., each participant or team rolls against the threshold of modifiers for Terrain and Traffic, incorporating the random terrain rolls. The result is merely noted and compared. Failing the opposed vehicle test just means you lose compared to other participants, and when several people fail the margins of failure are compared, too. Glitches have no effect during the opposed vehicle test. (This is a necessary measure, because some DPs may become very small when dealing with high penalties for low speed, and punishing that with lots of glitches would not be good.) If the test fails, it cannot be used as the test to control the vehicle during one of the action phases. But even when mastering the opposed test with lots of hits, these cannot be added to future opposed tests in place of the Maneuver stunt.


Stunts (only revised maneuvers listed, revisions in italics)

Maneuvering: As in the book. Maneuvering does not use DP modifiers for speed, but does use teamwork for team-members only with the same range! It is simply a vehicle test against the threshold of the terrain, traffic, etc. Net hits are transferred to the opposed vehicle test next turn. During this stage a skilled driver can make up for a vehicle that is too slow. Obviously high skill and low thresholds play a major part, here, so riggers and air power can play out their strengths.

Break Off (Extreme Range Only): The driver tries to break contact with all other opponents and flee the scene. To do this, the driver must succeed in a Vehicle Test with a threshold modifier of +1 per pursuing vehicle after the first.To do this, the driver must stage up the range increment above extreme for all chasers. The driver must win the opposed vehicle test 3 turns in a row—only then has he escaped. If at any point he fails a test, or fails to maintain Extreme Range, he must start to Break Off all over again.

Cut Off (Short Range Only, same domain only): The driver or team tries to cut off another single vehicle in Short Range, forcing it to crash. Make an Opposed Vehicle Test without the threshold for terrain or otherwise - since all vehicles are in the same terrain, . A team gets a +2 DP bonus per excess member over the opposing vehicles in the same range. The loser must make a Vehicle Test to avoid crashing, with the net hits generated from this test serving as a negative modifier.

Doing an Immelmann(Close range only) Sometimes the prey may want to reverse the game - to get the hunters in front of it, usually to then let loose with fixed aspect weaponry. To do so, an appropriately difficile maneuver must be undertaken. The prey and any target pursuer in close range must make the equivalent of a hairpin turn - under the prevalent terrain conditions. If the quarry gets more net hits, it has all the close-range pursuers in front of it, now.

Changing the environment / Extreme Maneuvering (Close and Medium Range only, same domain only)
There are two ways this stunt can be done - either by brute force, as in, collapsing bridges in front of someoen and then like, which isn't appropriately modeled with vehicle tests, or by voluntarily entering a more obstructed terrain, in the hope that the pursuers will be more hampered. Another option is hunting the quarry into an obstruction. Either way, the team initiating the maneuver must first know about appropriate terrain. This is proven by an appropriate knowledge check. Then, the initiating party must win an opposed vehicle test with a threshold equal to the new terrain. If it succeeds, the predominant terrain is changed: The quarry and all pursuers at close or medium range are affected. It is assumed that long-range pursuers can bypass the area, however, the GM may track progress loosely and decide they also have to enter that terrain after a while. Teamwork benefits can be used by members within the same engagement range for this maneuver. Extra team members give no benefit.

This maneuver can also be used to change the prevalent speed category (quarry only): When driving on the highway the quarry could turn off and enter more crowded city streets, or vice versa. Obviously there are domain limits, and the new conditions actually have to be available - you have to be in a city to turn into city streets, for instance. In order to change the speed category the quarry needs to make a normal vehicle test with a threshold one higher than the normal threshold for that terrain. If it succeeds, the speed category is changed, and the modifiers for each party are recalculated and applied to the coming opposed vehicle tests.

Create impossibility
This stunt is intended to make use of the environment in order to throw pursuers off track. It cannot be fully formalized, but some guidelines will be given. Examples include:
- entering a tunnel to throw off air pursuit: This maneuver necessitates that there actually are tunnels in the area. If in doubt, make a navigation/orientation test to find a tunnel. When an aerial pursuer is too large to follow, treat it like a normal impossibility. Roll sensors and eventually remove the pursuer. However, if the tunnel has only one other exit, roll a die of fate whether the pursuer picks the right exit to wait in front of. Also, if any pursuer finds the quarry again, all on that side can rejoin the chase.
- driving into a building with several exits: This can but needn't create an impossibility. Generally, when leaving a building again, it can be quite simple for pursuers to get back on the trail. Roll perception and the like. When the exit is made (and still in a vehicle, and discovered), adjust ranges for continued chase combat if necessary.
- playing hide and seek with pursuers.
This stunt aims at temporarily breaking visual contact and sensor locks with the pursuers in order to hide the vehicle, obfuscate the vehicle, or other. Roll appropriate stealth checks to get to hide, and then determine the outcome. If only the colour changes on an obvious vehicle, give the pursuers a perception check. If the vehicle is ditched, determine the time frame until it is found, and how much time the quarry has to switch vehicles or escape on foot. Etc.
- Reach jurisdiction borders
This is not so much a stunt as a goal. Basically, the quarry declares it wishes to reach jurisdiction borders, and the GM determines the distance to the nearest border. Then he simply divides the distance by the Prevalent Speed and determines the number of turns necessary. If the quarry is not caught or disabled by the time those turns are up, they succeed.

Interrupting/ending chase combat; actions that don't mesh well with it[Edit]

Chase combat as an abstracted system happens on a much larger timeframe than regular tactical actions. It is therefore necessary to take some mild measures to enable those characters whose actions are not influenced by the wild movement and action of the chase itself to not lose suspension of disbelief. Primarily, those are actions that happen on the matrix or on the magical side of things.
However, if one were to simply give these characters more actions, then they could dominate the game, which means that only those actions can happen more quickly than regular chase combat, which are chained together anyway. These are, in no particular order (and without any guarantee of completeness):

- hacking on the fly: the extended tests for hacking on the fly can all be made in one IP of chase combat, as well as entering the node.

- matrix only extended tests with intervals of up to one complex action can be undertaken completely in one IP.

- OPTIONAL: Any number of data/matrix only actions can be undertaken on a node during one IP. Effectively, simply let a hacker act outside the turn limits, but take care to not let him hog the spotlight for too long. If little rolling is be involved, it's ok to simply let him sit on the sideline and have him do his thing off-screen, presenting the result whenever it seems appropriate.

- Linking/subscribing devices, etc., or changing linked device modes does not take any action.

- Jumping in and out of drones takes no action (but only on the rigger's turn), however, this does not mean a rigger can be always jumped in to all drones at the same time: He can only do one jumped in action at the same time, and he cannot control a team of drones at the same time. He has to choose the vehicle to be jumped into during the opposed vehicle test, but he could choose to jump into various drones each turn and do stunts for each drone while jumped in.

- Minor non-vehicle physical actions that do not directly affect other combatants don't take any actions, for instance readying, reloading or switching weapons, readying pieces of gear, and the like. Taking aim, however, from a moving vehicle, does take a normal action even during chase combat.

- Magical extended tests with intervals of one complex action can be undertaken in one IP.

- OPTIONAL: Since attacks don't take more time than normal, and evading them should take no more time, it can be assumed that all participants always have time for a full-defense action, without costing them any actions. As such, any combatant could always dodge, block, or drive evasively. The -1 per previous attack during one turn does still apply. However, this seriously increases defense, and dramatically removes the tactical option of stealing actions via attacks. Only use this for very pink-mohawk games where lots of bullets are supposed to be flying to little effect.

Some matrix-like actions, however, that normally take intervals of simple or complex actions, are also slowed in conjunction with the rest of chase combat:

- most electronic warfare actions are assumed to be more difficult to undertake due to the rapid changing of connecting nodes, etc.

Some actions, however, interrupt or end chase combat. For instance, if the quarry were to crash without hurting the passengers, it is possible to go directly to regular tactical combat.
Likewise, if a hacker enters matrix combat (or a mage astral combat) during a chase it might be wise to simply interrupt the chase while the matrix combat is resolved, and take it up again afterwards.




I'll go over some concrete examples, later.

I use the Chase Rules without modification. Never hada problem switching between Chase and Tactical Modes.

What are these numbers really intended to represent? Like, a basic, zero modifier condition? I ask because some of them seem rather low, or don't relate well to each other: for example, driving 50kph [30mph] down a rural dirt road is a very different level of challenge than driving 50kph [30mph] on a paved urban road, or 80kph [50mph] on a paved rural road. [Dirt roads not being that much more difficult to drive on, in my experience.]


Rather than being a fixed interval [10kph], shouldn't this be a proportion of the speed category? 10kph difference in an airplane going 500kph would be very different from 10kph difference on a motorcycle going 20 kph.


Awesome. Those kinds of on-paper pre-playtest run-throughs are great ways to see if and how a proposed rule actually works. Nice job: I look forward to checking it out!

Ok, one thing first: I'll see this as a WIP at the moment.


Ok, the idea is to get rid of the 10 grandmas on wheelchairs problem - without just saying no, or the helicopter vs cars issue. The numbers are arbitrary, at this point. I just want a base speed from which to extrapolate.

Actually I might change this: The prevalent speed is that of the quarry in its environment. So basically, if a car in an urban environment tries to run from someone, the prevalent speed category will be urban, and hence, this will the speed a vehicle will have to be able to go in order to somehow join the fray. So the grandmas with their 5kph wheelchairs will get a -4 DP mod. Actually that might not even get them to 0, so I should increase the base speeds a bit - after all, this isn't the speed of flowing traffic, it's the speed of someone speeding through flowing traffic. So maybe at least 20kph above flowing traffic.

So let's take some examples right now:
Runners just miss the McGuffin being loaded into a chopper which then flies away. Now according to TJ or others, the chase would end. According the old rules, the runners now have to field 10 slow drones, and can easily catch the helo (as long as he doesn't have a crack pilot).
What happens with my rules: The helo can travel at 300kph, so this will be the speed category. If the runner's car can drive 200kph, with my fixed increments, the runners get a -10DP mod. If the car is slower, -15 or more. Any drone that can't match the speed by 100kph will be entirely out of the game, and most importantly, won't give a teamwork benefit. While you can argue that even with a 100kph difference noone could realistically follow, well... that's not the point.
Anyway, if the helo can now even go 400kph or more, then the pilot gets a bonus on top of that difference.


Actually... I think absolute increments aren't such a bad deal. First of all, absolute speed is what matters once terrain gets less important. Secondly... ok, I'll grant you that at lower speeds the differences become more relative. I'm not decided right now.



Later, unfortunately.

While I'd normally agree with you-- I really, really like most of SR2/3 to SR4.5-- my hat of the Maneuver Score knows no bounds. I think those rules need to be taken out back and shot. I much prefer the SR4.5 chase rules RAW to the Maneuver score, and that's not because I think the Chase rules are any good at all!

Yeah, we never used the Maneuver Score, either, any more than we use the Chase Combat rules in SR4; I see them as effectively identical in terms of utility. Shadowrun's vehicle-combat-specific rules have pretty much always been unusable for us, so we never come "out" of the character combat rules to go "into" some other subset of rules, but a lot of the reason we have the freedom to do that is the availability of superb maps.

OT:
I just had another brush with the horrible vehicle damage rules and what happens when PCs sit inside a vehicle. It had 10 armour and the bad guy was shooting an assault rifle, and got fracking 9 hits. I nearly killed my team again. Ok, maybe this is what really happens, but... (any individual runner would have had a really hard time dodging that attack, I guess.)

But what even happens? I attack the vehicle, now the passengers also have to take the damage. Do they get a dodge roll? Do they get any modifiers? Do they get the mod from wide burst? Had I used narrow burst, which is the primary passenger killing method they probably would have all been dead. Ok, so this way they only took stun damage, that was the only clear information I could get.

Anyway, it's clear SR writers also don't like all those movies where people hide behind car doors, and cars are completely perforated but the passengers are fine. It's TRUE that actually when faced with machinegun fire being in a car isn't the smartest thing you can do, unless the shooter sucks, but... for a game this seems harsh, especially with PC-killing GM-dice that roll 90% successes by default. Crap.

Just had to get this off my chest. Oh, and that was completely normal tactical combat, by the way. I was going to playtest the revised chase rules, but didn't find the right occasion.

1. i guess this is related to the linear scaling of the break off threshold regarding multiple opponents. The SR4 rule have repeated "issues" with linear scales, this because the writers choose to use them over more accurate logarithms. This because the latter is more difficult to keep track off during a session (a frequent complaint about earlier rules, where such scales where frequent). Linear scales invariably become "absurd" at the outer end of things.

2. i take it the issue here is the car chasing the helicopter, rather then the helicopter chasing the car. Again it seems to be talking about a drag race, but this time where one lane is filled with obstacles while the other is clear. Not that i am sure anyone would even bother trying to chase a helicopter using a car, hollywood actions notwithstanding (but then they, and anime, have managed the trick of ramming aircrafts with groundcrafts)...

in the end all rules, be them game or computer code, have corner cases where things break down. SR4 just makes those corner cases easier to spot because it has removed most of the logarithmic math from previous editions, and also removes the primary mask, the variable target number, from the GM "cheat sheet".

To be a passenger one would have to be inside the vehicle, no? Just hiding behind a open door would not limit ones ability to dodge to the same degree (the issue of allowing dodge at all with weapons fire is a discussion all its own). Hell, i am not sure i would bother with much more then a soft cover modifier. Treating it as a attack against a vehicle seems over the top.

It's the Crash rules that are a killer. A vehicle travelling at any speed is almost certain to kill all the passengers aboard if it crashes. This is doubly true of the vehicle has a high Body (which, IRL, makes no sense: the heavier frame of a vehicle should help prevent passenger damage, not increase it.)

Where are the rules for crashing? Is it just what's on SR4a p169-170 [SR4 p160,162]? Because I can't quite make sense of those. When they say, "Apply damage as if the vehicle rammed itself," do they mean the crashing vehicle takes damage as if it were the ram-er, or the ram-ee, or both?

And I would argue that, while having the damage increase because of a vehicle's Body [and thus, mass] makes sense, as Cain points out, not having it decrease because of that mass is unreasonable: when a vehicle crashes, passengers should get the protection of the vehicles Body+Armor, not just Armor.

You've pretty much got it, 32. The vehicle takes damage as if it hit itself in SR4.5. That means if you're traveling at a reasonable speed, you're doing massive amounts of damage to the passengers. The Crash test itself is pretty brutal as well.

Well, they could have at least used some caps, in some places...

Actually I think shooting helicopters down with torpedos is the current champion.

I understand your point, and I think lots of movies are getting SO stupid that it's almost funny. However, in game terms realism isn't an argument, it's this weird new word verisimilitude, which has been popping up as of late.
And don't forget you don't need LOS to track an air target, sensor will do fine. Ideally one could somehow incorporate this into the chase rules.

But the thing is, for SR these things break down so easily. I mean other games manage to have weird things happen at rare outliers, but work well, and don't need impromptu house rules for situations that COULD happen every day. Impromptu house rules are bad, because they mean that I can't use the rules to gauge a situation anymore. And using common sense isn't a good argument, because in spite of being called "common", it's actually not so much so.

SR4 I believe really suffers from poor rasterization and key mechanics weren't fully thought through. SR3 mostly thought them through too much to the point of making rules that were so complex they were unusable on the other end of the spectrum.

Can someone tell me what the point of these "multiple opponent" rules in the current chase rules are? How does a -2 mod for everyone make any sense? I mean that is a so far dissociate mechanic that I simply don't get it.


They were in the car. One guy got out to go into a stuffer shack when some drug gangers pulled up and sprayed the car with full-auto AK-fire. I thought, come on, wide burst won't kill anyone. As is... these guys have been beaten pretty pretty badly every recent fight .

I'm going to go over these Chase rule revisions again today.

When in reality it should take damage as if it hit whatever it hit, whether that's a bike or a troll or a wall.


Let's see how massive. I'm sure I'll miss something, so please, anyone, double-check my figures. Three different cases, three different speeds. A motorcycle [Body 6, Armor 4], a sedan [Body 10, Armor 6, Passenger Protection 3], and a semi [Body 18, Armor 8], going 30MPH, 60MPH, and 120MPH. [40, 80, and 160 meters per turn, respectively.] The passenger will be someone with a Body of 3 and no Impact armor; it's pretty easy to mentally scale that for a Body of 6 or Impact of 3 or whatever. [And I'll present two damage numbers, for ram-er and for ram-ee, depending on how one interprets that rule. And I'll assume 3 dice equals one hit.]

Bike, 30MPH
Body 6, Speed 40: Base DV 6 [3]
Armor 4, character Body 3: Unresisted DV 4 [1]
Bike, 60MPH
Body 6, Speed 80: Base DV 12 [6]
Armor 4, character Body 3: Unresisted DV 10 [4]
Bike, 135MPH
Body 6, Speed 160: Base DV 12
Armor 4, character Body 3: Unresisted DV 10 [4]

Sedan, 30MPH
Body 10, Speed 40: Base DV 10 [5]
Armor 6, PP 3, character Body 3: Unresisted DV 4 [1]
Sedan, 60MPH
Body 10, Speed 80: Base DV 20 [10]
Armor 6, PP 3, character Body 3: Unresisted DV 16 [6]
Sedan, 120MPH
Body 10, Speed 160: Base DV 20 [10]
Armor 6, PP 3, character Body 3: Unresisted DV 16 [6]

Semi, 30MPH
Body 18, Speed 40: Base DV 18 [9]
Armor 8, character Body 3: Unresisted DV 15 [6]
Semi, 60MPH
Body 18, Speed 80: Base DV 36 [18]
Armor 8, character Body 3: Unresisted DV 33 [15]
Semi, 120MPH
Body 18, Speed 160: Base DV 36 [18]
Armor 8, character Body 3: Unresisted DV 33 [15]

Right away a few problems leap out.
• Vehicles going 120 take the same damage as vehicles going 60, because the chart isn't very granular. Why isn't the DV just some division of the Speed, multiplied by the Body? [Thus force would equal mass times velocity.]
• An average person in an average sedan with an average advanced safety system should not die or very nearly die when they get in an accident at 60. You'd barely take 6 points of damage today in a comparative car; you sure as hell wouldn't take the 16 implied by being the ram-ee, depending on how you come down on that rule.
• Again, high Body is a major increase of damage, without a major increase in protection. If characters added the Body+Armor of the vehicle to their own Body+Armor for damage tests when crashing, and you assumed they took damage as if they were the ram-er, the "average sedan at 60" use case would mean 3 damage, a reasonable result today, but presumably not in 207x.

Anyone see mistakes, things I'm leaving out? I'm sure there have to be some.

It's also wierd that crashing when going 135MPH is totally survivable, but the same crash in a semi is 100% lethal and unsurvivable.

When the passengers use the vehicle's safety systems, they should not get injured.

This is something I wondered about. In the "Damage and Passengers" section on SR4a, p171, it says, "Attacks must specifically target either the passengers (in which case, the vehicle is unaffected) or the vehicle itself (in which case, the passengers are not affected). The exceptions to this rule are ramming, full-automatic bursts and area-effect weapon attacks like grenades and rockets—these attacks affect both passengers and vehicles." Now, because that included "ramming," I included "crashing," because, "Vehicles that crash suffer damage from whatever they collide with. Apply damage as if the vehicle rammed itself." If you don't assume "crash" equals "ramming" for this purpose, then the rule from Arsenal [no damage if you wear your seat belt] makes sense.

Alright, example time.

I think the most important aspect of chase combat is getting away, i.e. using the Break maneuver effectively.

So, let's see: The most basic example.

A team of runners in a getaway car are running from 3 cop cars, not rigged, or driving on pilot. If they don't get away within a certain time, let's say five minutes, a special pursuit vehicle or helo will join.

Let's say the cop drivers get 4 reaction and 3+2 skill with spec, and run with AR. They hence get 10 dice + a reasonable handling of +2 or more, so 12-13 dice. Their speed rating is probably around 160+, I'm just going to go with the Chrysler Nissan Patrol, a speed rating of 180, handling of +3, which is ample. 13 dice for the cops.

The runner team's rigger gets a reaction of 8, 6 skill + spec, + VR bonus for 18 dice.
I'm going to try doing this with a Rover 2068, because I particularly like that one, with Engine cust. for speed, 13 armour for final speed of 168, and a handling of +1, for 19 dice total.

So the cops are averating 4.3 hits and the runners 6.3 hits before other mods. It still looks ok for the runners.

Prevalent Speed: Urban, for 60 base. Cops get +6 dice, runners get +5. (Sums of 19, 24)

There are three cops, so the excess two give a teamwork bonus of +4, the max bonus the cops can get with their 4 reaction. (Sums of 23,24 for opposed tests)

So now it looks really even. Three cops can probably catch one runner car, well, they are a bit faster, too.

What do I immediately notice? Accelaration doesn't matter, that doesn't seem satisfying for a chase well below the max speed.


If the chase starts at medium range the runners have to stage up 5 times to break, so they have to win EVERY turn in order to beat the 5 minute limit. Edge somewhat increases their odds, but at this point they probably have to do something creative, or use force to disable the cop cars.

What happens with stupid metagaming? To increase their odds the runners could field 2 drones, preferrably aerial in order to benefit from better environmental thresholds, because, of course, each of those drones also has to get away in the same time frame. Ideally they here use a Nimrod (expensive), or a Kull, which is just about affordable. The gold standards remain the Nissan Roto or just a few Dalmatians or Steel Lynxes if air isn't an option or just not available.

And again I'm running out of time.

Alright, to continue above scenario:

Without fielding drones that might also get lost (I'll look at the probability of that, later), let's just see how the rolls would play out.

Cops get 7.66 hits on average, Runners 8. On the Chase Chart we have one box for close, with the runners, and one box for medium, with the cop cars. Both are in visual range of one another. But let's not forget that the runners are rigged in, which means they get -1 to threshold.

Let's say the predominant environment is night, with light traffic. The base threshold for just driving is 0, +2 for light traffic. (At this point I'm not sure if detrimental threshold mods are supposed to be cumulative. A side street with light traffic would then be +4. But I don't think so, it's just the predominant condition that counts.)

Also the book says that "Weather and visibility are not included in terrain and should be treated as standard dice pool modifiers." In this case it probably doesn't matter, since the cops should have visual aids just like the runners, but it might sometimes matter.

Now for the first large change in comparison to the standard chase rules: The GM rolls terrain for each range and domain: I'll actally roll this now:
Close: 5
Moderate: 4

That means no change for any participant. Now for the next big change: Opposed test with thresholds.

The runners get 8 hits vs a threshold of 1, for +7 net hits. The cops roll as a team and get 7.66 hits vs a threshold of 2, for 5.66 net hits. The runners now immediately stage up the distance to Long.

Now without real rolling there is now no way for the cops to keep up. The runners go through their IPs and do stuff, but every vehicle test will likely increase their advantage. The keep winning every turn and get away before the cops get their backup. Of course there is still the possibility of the terrain roll screwing with them, since they might get a crap roll and the cops get a good one.

So let me correct my prognosis: Three cops can't catch a VR-running rigger.

More later

In Shadowrun, as in real life, bad conditions usually stack on each other. It's harder to drive on a side street in the rain in heavy traffic than it is to just drive in any one of those conditions.

Normally I would be inclined to agree, but then, the table just doesn't look that way. The details given are just examples. And then it just has categories of Open, Light, Restricted and Tight. And since those are the real categories, I don't see how it's supposed to be cumulative. Normally conditions would be listed individually and these would be normally cumulative. Also, this is really one of the rare cases that thresholds are modified, and not DPS.

That does not mean, however, that I can't make it cumulative for a revision.

Going back to above example:

What would happen if...

The cops were to get a few drones (on pilot) for backup before the runners get away.

Now we have a new team, let's say it enters the fray at (triangular) long distance. The drones are standard police drones, Ford LEBD-1's with standard pilots, etc. Let's be generous and actually give them a maneuver autosoft of rating 3, as well as clearsight 3. Their speed rating is 80, so they gain +1 die for speed. Their pilot is 3, so they gain a max of +4 teamwork bonus, for a total of +6. So they have 11 dice. For air, and cop drones probably flying with some sort of priority, their threshold is mostly 0. Now they still do roll for terrain, and could just as easily run into problems.

Overall this produces no definite effect - unlike the original rules. So that's an improvement. The only effect the drones have is give the cop side a second chance at a good roll. Also, should the ground based pursuers run into problems, the air units might catch up. But overall, these drones are too slow and have too poor pilots to be a decisive factor.

How does the improvement come about? Capping the teamwork bonus, and changing the Break stunt, (most notably, the horrible +1 Threshold mod for each pursuer which basically forces the quarry to fight rather than run.)

What would happen if...?

The predominant terrain were rush-hour traffic.

Both teams now have to beat a base threshold of 4, with the runners down to 3 due to rigging. This just changes the net hits, but overall has little effect. However, if aerial drones fly over the traffic, they suddenly have an effect: an average of 3.66 net hits with their 0 threshold to 5 net hits against the threshold of 3 isn't so bad. Now if these were competent drones with better pilots they can suddenly make a real difference. A drone with a pilot of 6 and maneuver 4 ends up with a max of 16 dice before handling.

To me this is a clear improvement over the old rules.

How does this improvement come about? Clearly enabling opposed rolls with threshold changes the picture entirely, and results in a definite improvement.


What would happen if...

The runners fielded some drones on pilot, let's say the runners launch two MCT-Nissan Rotodrones, with runner-typical rating 6 pilots, Maneuver AS 4, etc. their speed rating is 100, so they gain +2 dice, for a total of 12. There is no direct way these can interact with the cars, but... let's leave that up to the abstraction. There is still a mild disconnect what effect more team-members can have to a team that only wants to get away, but... whatever.

So... the drones, being air drones, have low thresholds. They of course also have to roll for terrain. Also, as the GM I am inclined to not give them the benefit of pre-programmed right-of-way, so traffic will hamper them more.

Now in the primary scenario we have sides of three members each, so the cops lose their teamwork bonus. (resulting in 19 vs 24 for the cars.)
The runner drones have a base of 12 dice. Now the terrain for the ground has to compensate for their poor DPs, or else the car might get away, but the drones won't. 19 dice makes for a threshold advantage of +2 before the drones can get away. Do note that fielding slow ground drones will not help the runners at all, unless they sacrifice them. Fast ground drones may or may not help.

Should the cops also field their three aerial drones again, they maintain their teamwork bonus, and the game looks worse for the runner drones - in spite of their better stats they will have a hard time getting away with only one die on the police drones and needing a threshold advantage of 3 on the ground vehicles.

So, it seems teamwork is still usable, and various conditions have definite effects. A certain amount of disconnected abstraction remains, but it's manageable.

Again, capping teamwork bonus and actually making the opposed vehicle test threshold based is good. Introducing the base speed category makes sure that fast vehicles have an advantage.

Now, for a new case:

A group of runners are trying to trail the Mcguffin which is being transported away via helo. For obvious reasons they can't shoot it down, and it's running with wireless turned off, so they also can't hack it.

The quarry is a helicopter (and here I'm having trouble even picking a generic civilian helo, but probably it will end up being the rather underwhelming Hughes Airstar 2050), which only has a speed rating of 200.

Now it is impossible for me to gauge the ubiquity of riggers, so I would image most pilots just use AR. I'll give the helo pilot 4 reaction, 4 skill with spec, +1 AR for 11 dice. The helo has +1 handling for 12 dice. It's urban airspace for a predominant speed category of 100, so the helo gets another 5 dice for its speed rating. This means it comes out at 17 dice.

The runners are trailing in the same car as before (19 dice base), but since the quarry's speed is the defining category, they now gain only +3 for their speed, for a final 21 dice.

This might look good for the runners, as the helo still needs a threshold advantage of just over 1 to get away, and breaking will actually be tricky due to the 3-wins-in-a-row requirement. So it now depends on the terrain.

What would happen if...

The pursuit happened over open country?
The prevalent speed would go to 250+, which means the helo loses 5 dice, and the rigger loses 8. The helo comes out at 7 dice, the rigger at 11. So that doesn't change too much, again it boils down to the same difference - and what the driving looks like on the ground. Now weirdness will happen if the dominant speed category is an impossible match, due to the glitch probability going up. So, either it is necessary to give a fluff explanation why glitching becomes more probable, or we have to define that the opposed test does not include the possibility of crashing. So DP penalties are problematic, as usually.

What would happen if...

The chopper released a few slow aerial drones in the open air scenario? With a prevalent speed of 250, these slow drones simply don't get to play, as their DPs get reduced to 0. A rigger might still play.

What would happen if...
The quarry were not a helo, but instead a rotodrone? Or an autogyro with low speed? Now we are having some problems. The prevalent speed category of open airspace really means losing a lot of dice.
So that is an outlier that does not work - if the quarry is not fast enough for the prevalent category, then we must use a slower category. So maybe some conditions are needed, there.
Of course, if runners in an autogyro are trying to escape from a corporate tilt-rotor plane, it's quite obvious they'll be having a hard time, which means we might want to apply the open air prevalent speed after all.

So the system runs into problems for outlier cases, again.

OK, now I want to remake "The Gumball Rally" I set up in a World Of Darkness game using Shadowrun rules...

canonball run is more fun ;3

Ok, more mind-games:


Maneuvering, and how it can help:


One thing to remember, first: For maneuvers and all other vehicle tests, all those mods from the opposed test do not apply. There is no speed bonur or penalty, etc. So these are normal vehicle tests. At this stage skill clearly becomes a greater factor.

In the first scenario with the three cops, the runner rolls 19 dice to maneuver against a lower threshold, whereas the cops roll 17 dice (including teamwork benefits from vehicles within the same range) against the regular threshold. Any aerial drones could generate a few hits with their low thresholds to improve their meagre DPs next turn. It is that way possible for participants which were previously at a DP of 0 to enter the fray again - with how much success remains to be seen.

Changing the prevalent speed category

This is an important move when the quarry is in a sub-optimal speed category. Since a penalty of a too-low speed rating is greater than the benefit of bonus speed, moving into an area of lower base speed can be beneficial. For instance:

An unmanned truck on an inner-urban highway (speed 100 130) with a speed-rating of 80 is about to be hijacked by a team of runners. On pilot it doesn't stand a chance - a low DP and a penalty of 5 dice for speed. However, the monitoring corporate rigger notices the pursuit and jumps into the drone, immediately directing it to exit the highway and get into town. The speed is now 60, the truck gets +1 die - a net gain of 3 6 dice where the runners only gain 2 3. (Admittedly this is a small advantage. I have to say that for the fact that this is supposed to be driving well above the speed limit I think I'll have to increase the highway and extra-urban(good) categories, too. Done, and adapted the previous paragraph.)

In the other direction, a helicopter in urban airspace trying to get away from ground-based or low-flying pursuers could simply fly higher to reach open airspace and play out its speed advantage (should it have one, what with the slow helicopters in the game...).

More later.

By the way, should anyone feel like looking at these revisions with a serious intent of breaking them I would be glad to hear your insights.

Yeah, still trying to work that one out.

Cannonball Run didn't end with a Goblin in a AMC Gremlin nuking downtown Sudbury.

Well, the way I see it you can say that rather than giving you an advantage, more vehicles means the other side can't box you in as badly. It doesn't all make sense, and I guess it won't ever. Either you have team-work without too much hastle, or you just leave it out entirely.

That still doesn't make any sense.
If a large number of cops are chasing a large number of vehicles, they'll capture and detain as many as they can. Sure, some are going to escape, because the cops ran out of resources, but not the entire group.

Think of it as a game of tag. The more people that are It, the easier it is to tag those that aren't. The more people that aren't it, the easier it is to tag someone.