Full Version: Pimped Beginning characters
| QUOTE (L.D) |
| One more thing. One of the reasons I put these restrictions on this guy, is because I knew that it wouldn't bother him much. Some players might be really upset if they receive those kind of restrictions and not create that character, but I knew that he would still create him. And he did. And despite my restrictions he was a monster that owned all combat. |
Then shouldn't you be happy you have him? You have a skilled player, r at least one that is skilled at making combat characters.
okay, i correct my last rant-like post.....
what i meant was that saying no to stuff that is legal in the normal rules just because you don't want him to be as effective as the average samurai, that stinks, badly.....
Players trying to take APDS ammo into the game aren't trustable, they should be babied through the character creation, not a single skill or item should be bought without your supervision..... if they complain you can say "But you don't understand the rules, you wanted APDS ammo, beginning characters can't have APDS ammo, or Hardened Military Armor, see that number under the "Avaliability"? yeah, that can't be higher than 8..... if you don't know the rules i will have to help you, or maybe you understood them, but in that case i don't get it.... why would you take APDS rounds you knew were illegal?"
not allowing betaware, APDS ammo and the like, that's good, that's great even....
not allowing titanium skeleton and dermal sheath sucks, that has "Worthless GM" written all over it, that is what beginning Samurai can and should take, it was created for them...... i suppose you don't say to the mage "you can't have force 6 Manabolt, force 3 is okay, but not 6", or "No... you can't have a deck, take a terminal instead, okay? and you can't have the sleaze program, it makes you too good" to the decker.....
god, i need to find a game soon..... i'm just writing long rant-flame-posts on the internet to let off steam..... bah!
what i meant was that saying no to stuff that is legal in the normal rules just because you don't want him to be as effective as the average samurai, that stinks, badly.....
Players trying to take APDS ammo into the game aren't trustable, they should be babied through the character creation, not a single skill or item should be bought without your supervision..... if they complain you can say "But you don't understand the rules, you wanted APDS ammo, beginning characters can't have APDS ammo, or Hardened Military Armor, see that number under the "Avaliability"? yeah, that can't be higher than 8..... if you don't know the rules i will have to help you, or maybe you understood them, but in that case i don't get it.... why would you take APDS rounds you knew were illegal?"
not allowing betaware, APDS ammo and the like, that's good, that's great even....
not allowing titanium skeleton and dermal sheath sucks, that has "Worthless GM" written all over it, that is what beginning Samurai can and should take, it was created for them...... i suppose you don't say to the mage "you can't have force 6 Manabolt, force 3 is okay, but not 6", or "No... you can't have a deck, take a terminal instead, okay? and you can't have the sleaze program, it makes you too good" to the decker.....
god, i need to find a game soon..... i'm just writing long rant-flame-posts on the internet to let off steam..... bah!
Heh. D&D much, Solidcobra? (That's meant as a good thing; D&D kicks much ass, and it understands what it is to be a game better than any game that rips on it.)
If you were talking a balance-oriented game like D&D... or even one like "everyone max his archetype" Shadowrun, I'd agree with you. Gimping one archetype throws the concept of balance out the window, and when you're in a "this is a game" mindset, that's like starting one guy out with only half the money in Monopoly. Such really throws the game out of balance.
But in a game like Shadowrun, you run into two hiccups. First, since the balance is subservient to setting, the GM can decide that he wants to switch up certain things, be they availability allowances, price allowances, return-per-point (or priority), etc. So if he wants to play a street-level game, alphaware and titanium bone lacing might be out of everyone's league. Granted, he'd be a bad GM if the mage had force six libraries, but that's the GM's job to learn.
Second, and more importantly, balance in shadowrun stinks. Someone who wants to twink out can make a character far more powerful than a newbie or someone less skilled. And since allowing players with differing levels of skill to come in with the same starting totals leads to imbalance, the GM can ask the more skilled player to come in with less.... and the more skilled player might even enjoy the challenge. However, I do agree with you that insisting on this, rather than politely asking, is the sign of a bad GM.
If you were talking a balance-oriented game like D&D... or even one like "everyone max his archetype" Shadowrun, I'd agree with you. Gimping one archetype throws the concept of balance out the window, and when you're in a "this is a game" mindset, that's like starting one guy out with only half the money in Monopoly. Such really throws the game out of balance.
But in a game like Shadowrun, you run into two hiccups. First, since the balance is subservient to setting, the GM can decide that he wants to switch up certain things, be they availability allowances, price allowances, return-per-point (or priority), etc. So if he wants to play a street-level game, alphaware and titanium bone lacing might be out of everyone's league. Granted, he'd be a bad GM if the mage had force six libraries, but that's the GM's job to learn.
Second, and more importantly, balance in shadowrun stinks. Someone who wants to twink out can make a character far more powerful than a newbie or someone less skilled. And since allowing players with differing levels of skill to come in with the same starting totals leads to imbalance, the GM can ask the more skilled player to come in with less.... and the more skilled player might even enjoy the challenge. However, I do agree with you that insisting on this, rather than politely asking, is the sign of a bad GM.
As has been stated, the core problem here is not the characters, but the player. If the player submits a character with 2s in every stat, no skills above a 4, completely mundane with no cyber, apparently he's STILL not going to resist the urge to shoot everything that moves. He has no background. He's picking items only for their number-cruncyness (which [edit] is not [/edit] bad in moderation).
As far as asking for cyber and the like... as a GM, which of the following would be easier to accept (note that I'd probably allow either in a game I was running because these examples aren't that munchy):
As far as asking for cyber and the like... as a GM, which of the following would be easier to accept (note that I'd probably allow either in a game I was running because these examples aren't that munchy):
| QUOTE (Scenario 1) |
| This is my character, he's got bone lacking, wired reflexes 2 with reaction enhancers, a smartlink II, Rifles of 6 and the best starting rifle he can kill anything from a long way away with his vision mag 3. |
Or:
| QUOTE (Scenario 2) |
| This is my character, Gregory Miller. He was in the CAS army for three tours and pulled a specialist rank as sniper. During his third tour, he got pulled into a special forces group where they were experimenting with the effectivness of heavy cyberware on troop efficiency. They modded him up pretty well, but the program got cut because of lack of funding. He recycled back into the regular forces, but didn't reinlist. After that, he had trouble making ends meet so he turned to Shadowrunning. |
Replace the gear in the first example with whatever you find personally munckin (the example here isn't, it's rather random and just to prove the background point).
The impression I have is that if he were to make a character with twice the combat ability but also twice the personality, it would be better than what he's doing now. The issue isn't that he's putting up combat oriented characters. It's that he's putting up one dimensional combat characters. He's not thinking about his actions, consequences, or the way the rest of the group feels about it (quite possibly he doesn't really understand how or why they're upset about this).
It's not even that. You punish a player for loving the game.
Those of us addicted to the game of course spend hours looking through the book at things, thinking 'oh crap... next character definintely gets that...', etc. Then you have the players who say 'shit.. is this this 2nd saturday? Man, I gotta run over to the guys... I think we're playing Shadowpunk today.'
I'd never in a million years punish the player who was really into the game, pointing out cool rules he found to me and showing me characters that are just whack because they're cool. He may be annoying as all hell, I made avoid his 3rd phone call in the last 2 hours cause I know he just read anew rule he wants to ask or talk about.
If the other guys are turning in wimps and lack the "natural ability to make a munchkin character" as was said, their "punishment" is a weaker character than the guy who put effort into it. Sorry, I don't feel sorry for them. I mean, how hard is it to figure out that Titanimu Lacing is the best essence-smart cyberware to get to improve unarmed damage? How hard to figure Muscle Aug added to it gives it a 'power' that's unbeatable, even for a human? How hard to figure an orc or dwarf with their +2 is a better choice for race because of it? How hard to see Wired-2 is the best speed cyber for essence/nuyen cost?
More power to the guy for spending all of 5 minutes reading the book, guess the rest of the group should be glad people like me and Lilt aren't making characters for that game.
Hell, the GM wouldn't even know how crazy we could get with what looks like a normal character. 
Sphynx
Those of us addicted to the game of course spend hours looking through the book at things, thinking 'oh crap... next character definintely gets that...', etc. Then you have the players who say 'shit.. is this this 2nd saturday? Man, I gotta run over to the guys... I think we're playing Shadowpunk today.'
I'd never in a million years punish the player who was really into the game, pointing out cool rules he found to me and showing me characters that are just whack because they're cool. He may be annoying as all hell, I made avoid his 3rd phone call in the last 2 hours cause I know he just read anew rule he wants to ask or talk about.
If the other guys are turning in wimps and lack the "natural ability to make a munchkin character" as was said, their "punishment" is a weaker character than the guy who put effort into it. Sorry, I don't feel sorry for them. I mean, how hard is it to figure out that Titanimu Lacing is the best essence-smart cyberware to get to improve unarmed damage? How hard to figure Muscle Aug added to it gives it a 'power' that's unbeatable, even for a human? How hard to figure an orc or dwarf with their +2 is a better choice for race because of it? How hard to see Wired-2 is the best speed cyber for essence/nuyen cost?
More power to the guy for spending all of 5 minutes reading the book, guess the rest of the group should be glad people like me and Lilt aren't making characters for that game.
Hell, the GM wouldn't even know how crazy we could get with what looks like a normal character. Sphynx
Sphynx, it is clear that the GM and every other player (as far as we know) at the table is not having fun because of the way he plays his characters. I maintain that it doesn't matter what character he is playing, if he doesn't have a backstory, a personality, or the ability resist homicidal urges, then he's not playing a Shadowrun character. He's playing a one-dimensional cutout which can only kill people and break things.
I think I'm not alone when I say that if a character with a virtually unstoppable character has a good backstory, is played intelligently (on a level beyond combat tactics), and can keep from leaving a trail of bodies in his wake, then he's more or less acceptable (depending on the specific game). The issue isn't the character, it's the attitude of the player as expressed through his character.
I think I'm not alone when I say that if a character with a virtually unstoppable character has a good backstory, is played intelligently (on a level beyond combat tactics), and can keep from leaving a trail of bodies in his wake, then he's more or less acceptable (depending on the specific game). The issue isn't the character, it's the attitude of the player as expressed through his character.
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| More power to the guy for spending all of 5 minutes reading the book, guess the rest of the group should be glad people like me and Lilt aren't making characters for that game. Hell, the GM wouldn't even know how crazy we could get with what looks like a normal character. Sphynx |
At least the player isn't doing the "Etiquette 2 = genuflecting before the altar of roleplaying so the GM cannot screw my PC over" thing.
Normal looking uber PCs are the very pinnacle of munchiness! By appearing "normal" the GM does not have a good reason to deny you or to penalise you. But you know that the PC is uber-munched....
I completely agree with you TinkerGnome. Those are completely seperate issues than what I posted about though.
My comments were a bit off topic in referring to L.D.'s comments about MuscleAug and Titanium Lacing, not in reference to the subject player. I completely agree that there should always be a background, and the GM can definitely help alot in that manner.
My comments are only in reference to the limiting cyberware comment.
Sphynx
My comments were a bit off topic in referring to L.D.'s comments about MuscleAug and Titanium Lacing, not in reference to the subject player. I completely agree that there should always be a background, and the GM can definitely help alot in that manner.
My comments are only in reference to the limiting cyberware comment.
Sphynx
[edit: you can ignore this, I didn't see Sphynx's last post.]
I can see where Sphynx is coming from. Personally, I *LOVE* number crunching. I dream at night about the new character I could put together. Its just what I enjoy (and I don't think it makes me a munchkin, just a computer geek who likes numbers : ) As a GM, I've had players who number crunch and players who just grab an archetype and roleplay. With the latter, I generally make exceptions to help them be more useful, or let them get free successes through roleplaying rather than rolling, since that's what they enjoy. As long as they don't totally outshine players like Sphynx (who have super-fantastic characters), I've never heard anyone complain.
The problem does come up when a character tries to shoot everything in sight, irrelevant of whether they have super characters or not. But since the guy who started this thread was complaining about chargen, not in game playing, I don't see any reason to discuss that.
I can see where Sphynx is coming from. Personally, I *LOVE* number crunching. I dream at night about the new character I could put together. Its just what I enjoy (and I don't think it makes me a munchkin, just a computer geek who likes numbers : ) As a GM, I've had players who number crunch and players who just grab an archetype and roleplay. With the latter, I generally make exceptions to help them be more useful, or let them get free successes through roleplaying rather than rolling, since that's what they enjoy. As long as they don't totally outshine players like Sphynx (who have super-fantastic characters), I've never heard anyone complain.
The problem does come up when a character tries to shoot everything in sight, irrelevant of whether they have super characters or not. But since the guy who started this thread was complaining about chargen, not in game playing, I don't see any reason to discuss that.
Now, ya see Sphynx, this is where you lose me. I have a lot of respect for you and the way you stick to your guns in the face of all the abuse you take around here. I even agree with you attitudes regarding "power gaming" vs. "munchkinism."
But the you had to go and say
But the you had to go and say
| QUOTE |
| If the other guys are turning in wimps and lack the "natural ability to make a munchkin character" as was said, their "punishment" is a weaker character than the guy who put effort into it. Sorry, I don't feel sorry for them. I mean, how hard is it to figure out that Titanimu Lacing is the best essence-smart cyberware to get to improve unarmed damage? How hard to figure Muscle Aug added to it gives it a 'power' that's unbeatable, even for a human? How hard to figure an orc or dwarf with their +2 is a better choice for race because of it? How hard to see Wired-2 is the best speed cyber for essence/nuyen cost? |
[emphasis mine]
The things you talk about are straight up min/maxing. Yes, Titanium gives a better boost, but you light up the MADs like a Christmas Tree. (I like Plastic, personaly--its great for mages)
Dwarves and Orks are better 'cause they get +2...? And to think all this time I thought you just liked playing dwarves. Its like I told the newb on the other thread. You should play something that you think would be fun. I get the impression that a lot of folks around here play Trolls (or Orks, or Dwarves) ONLY BECAUSE OF THE BONUSES THEY RECIEVE.
Am the only one that has characters with boosted instead of Wired NOT because I intend to slap a Synap Accel on and tear the town up, but rather because I feel it firts better w/ the character?
Wired 2 is the best....depends on your campaign, I guess. Better get that reflex trigger and hope you don't light the MADs up.
[edit: this isn't in reference to anyone spcecific] It seems like the same "rolepalyers" that squeeze every drop of juice out the the character sheet also are the ones that claim, "playing the role is the most important part of the game"
Riiight.
Spynx, you seem to have a pretty thick skin but I'll say it anyway, don't take this personaly. I'm just venting...
[edit: b/c I hit the damn "post" button too quickly.]
Sorry, Sphyx, mine was right above yours and I mistook your target. I agree with care being taken about what you restrict for players who can actually play the game. When you're getting into a situation like this where the player is trying to play S&D (Shadows & Dragons), and badly at that, and the whole group wants to lynch him for it, it's time to start getting serious.
That said, I think Joker's probably going to be able to hand the guy now. He might end up leaving the group, or he might end up a better player. Either is better than having a game where only one person is enjoying themselves.
That said, I think Joker's probably going to be able to hand the guy now. He might end up leaving the group, or he might end up a better player. Either is better than having a game where only one person is enjoying themselves.
| QUOTE (kevyn668) | ||
| Now, ya see Sphynx, this is where you lose me. I have a lot of respect for you and the way you stick to your guns in the face of all the abuse you take around here. I even agree with you attitudes regarding "power gaming" vs. "munchkinism." But the you had to go and say
|
???
I'm abused here?
Besides, I think you mis-understand me.
Ther'es Nothing wrong with getting the best you can for your numbers, that shows you really put alot of effort into your character, and thus are less likely to just go kill him off. You shoulda seen me with my new shaman character in a game where BioIndex/2 is removed from Essence for Magic calculations. You have any idea how hard it is to get Cybereyes with 0.7 Ess of mods, Smartlink with Rangefinder, Datajack, and a Knowsoft link while handling a Trauma Dampener? Specially since I didn't want to use my Datajack for my Smartlink... I like to keep that for my NAV-Dat in combat situations. I couldn't afford to leave any of it behind, but also couldn't afford to lose 2 levels of magic. I spend HOURS on my characters to tweak them 'just right'. But for every hour I spent, guarantee I spend 2 thinking of how to get it all incorporated into a fluid background (yeah, I do background after character creation )Sphynx
| QUOTE (kevyn668) |
| The things you talk about are straight up min/maxing. Yes, Titanium gives a better boost, but you light up the MADs like a Christmas Tree. (I like Plastic, personaly--its great for mages) Dwarves and Orks are better 'cause they get +2...? And to think all this time I thought you just liked playing dwarves. Its like I told the newb on the other thread. You should play something that you think would be fun. I get the impression that a lot of folks around here play Trolls (or Orks, or Dwarves) ONLY BECAUSE OF THE BONUSES THEY RECIEVE. Am the only one that has characters with boosted instead of Wired NOT because I intend to slap a Synap Accel on and tear the town up, but rather because I feel it firts better w/ the character? Wired 2 is the best....depends on your campaign, I guess. Better get that reflex trigger and hope you don't light the MADs up. [edit: this isn't in reference to anyone spcecific] It seems like the same "rolepalyers" that squeeze every drop of juice out the the character sheet also are the ones that claim, "playing the role is the most important part of the game" Riiight. Spynx, you seem to have a pretty thick skin but I'll say it anyway, don't take this personaly. I'm just venting... [edit: b/c I hit the damn "post" button too quickly.] |
*Sigh* Damn Editors...
I do like Dwarves, you'll never see me play Human, Orc or Troll (I can get into Elves, but tend to avoid them due to not liking the usual crowd that plays them)
As for MADs. So? Don't go through them, or have a license if you do. Sounds to me like you've got a GM who has a hard-on for screwing players. I'm lucky that in my game the story is based more on planning/plotting/action (you think Ethan Hunt went through a MAD when he broke into a corp?) or as currently, doing Merc work (we've been in Aztlan for at least 6 months now...)
PS. Ethan Hunt = Mission Impossible
Anyhows, I don't take offense.
I'm quite proud to take such pride in my characters.Sphynx
I just re-read my last post and I think I need to soften the blow a bit.
I like to crunch numbers as much as the next guy. Most of my air-abacus is tied up with trying to jam all the skills, atts, and gear into a 125 BPs (or whatever) and make it look like the number version of the concept that's kicking around my head.
But I also tend to day dream about the details of my character. What kinds of clothes does he wear? Is his Secure Jacket Waist Length or Mid-Thigh? Black snyth-leather or what? Why does he perfer the Max Power to the Manhunter? Does he like to cross his arms or stick his hands in his pockets?
Drek like that.
For instance me and a non-RPer buddy o'mine were at this bar last night. He was talking to some chic and I was doing my duty as his wingman by picking up her grumpy friend ("...but she's towing an anchor..."). She was fairly attractive but I kept drifting off and not paying attention to whatever she was droning on about.
Why?
Because I was trying to decide if my next character was going to pack the Beretta 8357 Courgar or the H&K USP .357 Compact and why.
So, in summation, sorry for the eariler rant.
I like to crunch numbers as much as the next guy. Most of my air-abacus is tied up with trying to jam all the skills, atts, and gear into a 125 BPs (or whatever) and make it look like the number version of the concept that's kicking around my head.
But I also tend to day dream about the details of my character. What kinds of clothes does he wear? Is his Secure Jacket Waist Length or Mid-Thigh? Black snyth-leather or what? Why does he perfer the Max Power to the Manhunter? Does he like to cross his arms or stick his hands in his pockets?
Drek like that.
For instance me and a non-RPer buddy o'mine were at this bar last night. He was talking to some chic and I was doing my duty as his wingman by picking up her grumpy friend ("...but she's towing an anchor..."). She was fairly attractive but I kept drifting off and not paying attention to whatever she was droning on about.
Why?
Because I was trying to decide if my next character was going to pack the Beretta 8357 Courgar or the H&K USP .357 Compact and why.
So, in summation, sorry for the eariler rant.
I know who Ethan Hunt is. I am a bit of a action movie buff.
I don't know about the Gm screwing me. I tend to play "through the front door" types. Ya know, the Light Sam/Light Face. I guess that's how I think. You and I should play some time.
I know your GMing but lemme know when you get a open slot in your Merc Game.
I don't know about the Gm screwing me. I tend to play "through the front door" types. Ya know, the Light Sam/Light Face. I guess that's how I think. You and I should play some time.
I know your GMing but lemme know when you get a open slot in your Merc Game.
Sphynx, I have to ask for some clarification from you on your stance. Do you advocate all this cyberware and number crunching at character creation, or as a gradual progression as you get more karma/cash.
In my personal opinion, it isn;t a good idea to give your character everything from the get go. I do belive in somewhat of a progression with my Shadowrun chracters. Start with very little and get more as your street rep increases, so that by the time the AAA's are hireing you, you do have the Wired 3 and all that stuff.
I do have a problem when people hand me a brand new character that has Wired Reflexes 3 and tons of other cyberware that no one else (not even the other Street Sam) has. That is gonna cause problems right out of the gate.
Though, I am a firm beliver in the concept of there being no "Make or Break" peices of Cyberware, or no "Make or Break" spells or adapt powers. I also belive that high numbers do not a kick ass character make. Your numbers are meaningless to me unless you got a background and a personality for that character. That way, the interaction between your character and the rest of the team will become ingrained into the mythos of the campaign.
I use the D&D campaign I play in as an example. During the years we have played in that campaign, we have found artifacts, tangled with demon lords, and gotten massive piles of treasure. However, when we talk about our characters, we don't talk about their stats or what treasure they have. We talk about the famous qoutes they've said, the dumb ass mistakes we've made, our cleaver tricks that have won the day. In essance, its about what our characters say and do. Likewise in Shadowrun.
How else do you find out what the terminal velocity of a salad thrown by an irrate elf is.
In my personal opinion, it isn;t a good idea to give your character everything from the get go. I do belive in somewhat of a progression with my Shadowrun chracters. Start with very little and get more as your street rep increases, so that by the time the AAA's are hireing you, you do have the Wired 3 and all that stuff.
I do have a problem when people hand me a brand new character that has Wired Reflexes 3 and tons of other cyberware that no one else (not even the other Street Sam) has. That is gonna cause problems right out of the gate.
Though, I am a firm beliver in the concept of there being no "Make or Break" peices of Cyberware, or no "Make or Break" spells or adapt powers. I also belive that high numbers do not a kick ass character make. Your numbers are meaningless to me unless you got a background and a personality for that character. That way, the interaction between your character and the rest of the team will become ingrained into the mythos of the campaign.
I use the D&D campaign I play in as an example. During the years we have played in that campaign, we have found artifacts, tangled with demon lords, and gotten massive piles of treasure. However, when we talk about our characters, we don't talk about their stats or what treasure they have. We talk about the famous qoutes they've said, the dumb ass mistakes we've made, our cleaver tricks that have won the day. In essance, its about what our characters say and do. Likewise in Shadowrun.
How else do you find out what the terminal velocity of a salad thrown by an irrate elf is.
| QUOTE |
| I do have a problem when people hand me a brand new character that has Wired Reflexes 3 and tons of other cyberware that no one else (not even the other Street Sam) has. |
Heh. He is the sam....
| QUOTE (kevyn668) |
| H&K USP .357 Compact |
It's generally a good idea to refer to the .357SIG so that it's clear you aren't referring to the .357 Magnum. Gave me a bit of a scare there...
Noted.
| QUOTE |
| I do have a problem when people hand me a brand new character that has Wired Reflexes 3 and tons of other cyberware that no one else (not even the other Street Sam) has. |
I gotta admit ... any starting character that'staking Wired III is already giving up a lot -- the resources spent on it could have been use for other cyber (bone lacing, dermal plating, etc) or senseware (eyes are my personal favourite, tee-hee!). Or, the build points (or priority) could have been spent on skills.
I don't personally see a problem inherent to a char with wired 3. Now, if the rest of the crew only had 1 initiative die, then I can see how it might be unbalancing ... but I think I'd bite the bullet and TRY to accomodate it. I'm too new a GM to be that picky. ;D
| QUOTE (Solidcobra) |
| okay, i correct my last rant-like post..... what i meant was that saying no to stuff that is legal in the normal rules just because you don't want him to be as effective as the average samurai, that stinks, badly..... |
That still depends on what everyone else is making. The thing is that you as a GM is responsible for making sure that the team works well together and (once again) that all players have fun. To achieve that, it is within my right as a GM to change what I allow in the game. It's as easy as raising/lowering the availability for ware and gear and adding restrictions for edges and flaws. My initial comment about bonelacing as such was to give an example to Joker9125 that as a GM you're fully within your rights when you deny a player some ware/gear. Specially if the GM has talked to the player that he's disrupting the game for everyone and he still persists. Which he apparently has.
| QUOTE (Joker9125) |
| Yes we have told him that these characters are not fun to play with but he dosent seem to understand I dont belive he is intentionally a greifer he just dosent quite get it. |
| QUOTE (Solidcobra) |
| not allowing betaware, APDS ammo and the like, that's good, that's great even.... not allowing titanium skeleton and dermal sheath sucks, that has "Worthless GM" written all over it, that is what beginning Samurai can and should take, it was created for them...... i suppose you don't say to the mage "you can't have force 6 Manabolt, force 3 is okay, but not 6", or "No... you can't have a deck, take a terminal instead, okay? and you can't have the sleaze program, it makes you too good" to the decker..... |
ROFLOL
You're so focused on bashing me as a GM that you're missing the point.
If all the players are deckers using terminals and one wants to use a Fuchi Cyber 7 (forget the new names), then I would tell him no. If it's not a decker campaign it does not matter. Why? Because if you have one decker, then the entire group is not there when he gets into trouble on the matrix. The difference with a sammie is that he can spoil an entire fight for the rest of the players, even if they create characters that are somewhat combat oriented.
Now if four out of five players create general type characters and the last one wants to create a combat monster then that won't be fun. Trust me on that. And it's a hell of a lot easier to get the one guy to change his character than to change all four of them. And he doesn't have to change the character all that much, just tone him down a bit. How much depends on the campaign and the rest of the team.
Edit: Not one of you calling me a bad GM bothered to see what powerlevel I'm GM:ing at. You have your powerlevel where a sammie must have titanium bonelacing and level four muscle augmentation (if I'm reading your posts right), but that does not mean that my games have the same level. In fact, I remember a while back when I posted some of this guys stats here and heard that he wasn't a "real sammie" because ha has so "shitty" stats and ware and that he had been flipping burgers all his life. Yet despite him being such a shitty sammie he kicked ass in every combat he was in.
As Gm you are also the Fixer who sets up the team. In a team of sneaky balanced professionals, a cyclops with a history of phychotic behavior will not be hired. Nor will a dwarf whose only fall-back is force 6 fireball.
The Gm is perfectly within his/her rights to say "that's a fine character, now go build something different." This happened to me once where I missed a memo somewhere and built a char WAY out of line with everyone elses and the campaign suffered for it.
Joker has said that he talked to the person in question to no avail and has asked how to deal with the person and my advice is.
If handing him a pregenerated sheet doesn't work and talking doesn't work and having the other players take him out back and 'explain' things to him don't work then it's time to ditch the player and tell him to come back in a few years when he is willing to play more than one type of PC.
But then I'm a railroading asshole of a guy
The Gm is perfectly within his/her rights to say "that's a fine character, now go build something different." This happened to me once where I missed a memo somewhere and built a char WAY out of line with everyone elses and the campaign suffered for it.
Joker has said that he talked to the person in question to no avail and has asked how to deal with the person and my advice is.
If handing him a pregenerated sheet doesn't work and talking doesn't work and having the other players take him out back and 'explain' things to him don't work then it's time to ditch the player and tell him to come back in a few years when he is willing to play more than one type of PC.
But then I'm a railroading asshole of a guy
true, true... i didn't bother to think about your powerlevel, if you play a low-BP ganger game then fine..... and if you play a game of non-perfect characters that want to take on combat, sure....
this is what i still haven't understood, the decker's supposed to own in the matrix, the mage on the astral, the vehicle rigger on the road..... so why can't the poor samurai be dominating in combat, since that's what he's supposed to do?
there is a problem, a group can't blame a samurai for taking the spotlight in combat, THAT'S HIS JOB! and if he just wasted half the enemy sec team in 3 seconds, he's gonna get a share of bullets even worse than the mages! less bullets for the rest to catch......
it isn't any problem with balance and encounter difficulty either.... if Son of Sam the samurai has to take on Sister of Scylla the cyberzombie to be challenged, throw Sister of Scylla at him, if the rest are hurt, they aren't supposed to complain, they got in the way, if Sis is attacking Son with all she's got, proving to be a fair match for him, the rest of the team shouldn't jump out and shoot at sis, she's gonna kill them and go back to Son......
If they whine, the samurai and the GM should, at the same time, calmly explain that it's their fault, if the samurai got a datajack and a small-time deck and followed the decker into the big, bad, Black system with black and grey IC and top sec-deckers everywhere, then yes, his brain is supposed to BURN! No-one expects anything else....
Same thing in combat, if the team stands by and shoots with their waterpistols on the Red Samurai then it's their faults they get hurt, because it is Son of Sams job to stand there and kick ass, Karl Kombatmage can help him a lot, if he plays smart, but Diane the Decker, or even the great Fastjack himself, could and should die if they want to mess with what Son's taking care of.....
oh well, all i'm saying is: the problem is, if i understand it, at least that's what i'm ranting about: a player makes a combat machine
the solution: good! every team needs one of those when the enemy security team rounds the corner and opens fire.....
oh well..... i'm just a bad egg amongst the players and GMs, thinking that my method, swim or drown, is supreme to the others.... but that, and the fact that mages just own, not CRUSH, in SR is what made me switch to shadowrun in the first place, the gritty attitude and the "your character isn't good enough, he dies, try better next time!" mentality it seemed, and still seems to, with my GMs and myself, to have.....
okay, final part of this rant, promise!
If you want to create a weak character: okay, great, that's fine, as long as you make a character..... but i'm gonna warn you, and help you with your next character, unless the dice gods truly favor you or you have some secret masterplan to pull, then your character's gonna be named Redshirt and be sent as negotiator to the dragon, ghoul community, toxic insect spirit hive or whatever.....
i'll help you with your next try! let's make him/her better than the last one, okay? so he can get to the big level, like his friends, Son, Karl and Diane......
this is what i still haven't understood, the decker's supposed to own in the matrix, the mage on the astral, the vehicle rigger on the road..... so why can't the poor samurai be dominating in combat, since that's what he's supposed to do?
there is a problem, a group can't blame a samurai for taking the spotlight in combat, THAT'S HIS JOB! and if he just wasted half the enemy sec team in 3 seconds, he's gonna get a share of bullets even worse than the mages! less bullets for the rest to catch......
it isn't any problem with balance and encounter difficulty either.... if Son of Sam the samurai has to take on Sister of Scylla the cyberzombie to be challenged, throw Sister of Scylla at him, if the rest are hurt, they aren't supposed to complain, they got in the way, if Sis is attacking Son with all she's got, proving to be a fair match for him, the rest of the team shouldn't jump out and shoot at sis, she's gonna kill them and go back to Son......
If they whine, the samurai and the GM should, at the same time, calmly explain that it's their fault, if the samurai got a datajack and a small-time deck and followed the decker into the big, bad, Black system with black and grey IC and top sec-deckers everywhere, then yes, his brain is supposed to BURN! No-one expects anything else....
Same thing in combat, if the team stands by and shoots with their waterpistols on the Red Samurai then it's their faults they get hurt, because it is Son of Sams job to stand there and kick ass, Karl Kombatmage can help him a lot, if he plays smart, but Diane the Decker, or even the great Fastjack himself, could and should die if they want to mess with what Son's taking care of.....
oh well, all i'm saying is: the problem is, if i understand it, at least that's what i'm ranting about: a player makes a combat machine
the solution: good! every team needs one of those when the enemy security team rounds the corner and opens fire.....
oh well..... i'm just a bad egg amongst the players and GMs, thinking that my method, swim or drown, is supreme to the others.... but that, and the fact that mages just own, not CRUSH, in SR is what made me switch to shadowrun in the first place, the gritty attitude and the "your character isn't good enough, he dies, try better next time!" mentality it seemed, and still seems to, with my GMs and myself, to have.....
okay, final part of this rant, promise!
If you want to create a weak character: okay, great, that's fine, as long as you make a character..... but i'm gonna warn you, and help you with your next character, unless the dice gods truly favor you or you have some secret masterplan to pull, then your character's gonna be named Redshirt and be sent as negotiator to the dragon, ghoul community, toxic insect spirit hive or whatever.....
i'll help you with your next try! let's make him/her better than the last one, okay? so he can get to the big level, like his friends, Son, Karl and Diane......
| QUOTE |
| this is what i still haven't understood, the decker's supposed to own in the matrix, the mage on the astral, the vehicle rigger on the road..... so why can't the poor samurai be dominating in combat, since that's what he's supposed to do? |
Because those are all false assumptions. a Decker is someone that centers around the matrix, that doesn't even means he has to be very good at it. Likewise for Riggers mages and Sammies. Just because you're the PC does not under any circumstances make you the best at everything, in fact if you started out the best you have a very shallow campaign with no advancement to look forward to. They are supposed to (hopefully) be competent in their chosen vocation, but thats not the same as what you are suggesting.
| QUOTE |
| there is a problem, a group can't blame a samurai for taking the spotlight in combat, THAT'S HIS JOB! |
Yes, but its NOT his job to make every encounter into a combat. It is his job to take encounters that already are combat and do his best to minimize losses for his team while maximizing losses for theirs.
| QUOTE |
| oh well..... i'm just a bad egg amongst the players and GMs, thinking that my method, swim or drown, is supreme to the others.... but that, and the fact that mages just own, not CRUSH, in SR is what made me switch to shadowrun in the first place, the gritty attitude and the "your character isn't good enough, he dies, try better next time!" mentality it seemed, and still seems to, with my GMs and myself, to have..... |
Problem is sooner or later unless the GM cheats on die rolls, the one player that plays a pure specialized combat monster will roll bad and bite it, then the entire party will be massacred upon the fault and choices of a single player. Sounds fun, being killed for something you could not physically prevent, in a situation only a single party member could hope to do.
| QUOTE |
| If you want to create a weak character: okay, great, that's fine, as long as you make a character..... but i'm gonna warn you, and help you with your next character, unless the dice gods truly favor you or you have some secret masterplan to pull, then your character's gonna be named Redshirt and be sent as negotiator to the dragon, ghoul community, toxic insect spirit hive or whatever..... |
Only if his GM plays an adversarial game where the johnsons are incompetent enough that they hire Shadowrun teams out of their depth for the job at hand. It's a johnson's job to hire teams that CAN complete missions, for the lowest pay he can manage. If a johnsons team cant do that, he is failing as a johnson.
You cannot win Shadowrun. You don't play it against the GM, you play it with the GM.
You cannot win Shadowrun. You don't play it against the GM, you play it with the GM.
I do have to say that D&D pretty much ruined a lot of mindsets regarding that. Character advancement doesn't have to come in the form of stats, or gaining cool new abilities, or anything of the sort. It's perfectly acceptable and everybit as much fun to share a story with characters who are "the best with no hope of advancement" as it is if they were everyday joes with tons of potential before them. They're just two very different stories.
But apparently some people aren't having "fun" in a roleplaying unless they're gaining their +1d10 hit points this level or spending the 10 Karma they just earned to bolster some skill or ability whether they used it or not on the last run. Not that there's anything wrong with it, per se, I just think it's a shame.
But apparently some people aren't having "fun" in a roleplaying unless they're gaining their +1d10 hit points this level or spending the 10 Karma they just earned to bolster some skill or ability whether they used it or not on the last run. Not that there's anything wrong with it, per se, I just think it's a shame.
I dont think ithat's a shame, because I think that's wrong. And what may I add does that have a single thing to do with D&D?
That's all personal preference. For my players The game is the story of their character's lives. Why skip the journey of how they got there, that IS the story. A movie doesnt start after the good guy already won.
Please feel free to elaborate. Examples if you could please. This is after all, entirely a matter of personal preference.
That's all personal preference. For my players The game is the story of their character's lives. Why skip the journey of how they got there, that IS the story. A movie doesnt start after the good guy already won.
Please feel free to elaborate. Examples if you could please. This is after all, entirely a matter of personal preference.
| QUOTE (Dax) |
| Sphynx, I have to ask for some clarification from you on your stance. Do you advocate all this cyberware and number crunching at character creation, or as a gradual progression as you get more karma/cash. In my personal opinion, it isn;t a good idea to give your character everything from the get go. I do belive in somewhat of a progression with my Shadowrun chracters. Start with very little and get more as your street rep increases, so that by the time the AAA's are hireing you, you do have the Wired 3 and all that stuff. |
Dax, I'm afraid that Sphynx is actually closer to the spirit and intent of Shadowrun. Shadowrun is unlike D&D in one very significant way; "starting" characters are not the equivalent of first-level characters! Most Shadowrun characters are people who have been doing this for awhile. Look at the face, the street samurai, and the covert ops specialist. They are not beginners. Shadowrunners make runs against corporations - it is not something they have to "work up" to.
That is not to say that you can't start out with "street-level" runners who have little cyberware or experience. But while it is easy enough to tweak point allocations and availability rules, and such campaigns are fairly common (two of the three online games that I am still active in, actually), they are still not "standard" Shadowrun. The basic game concept involves professional criminals and freelance spies who do extremely dangerous missions.
There's nothing wrong with a game where the runners start out as punks, but you should tweak/weaken the character creation rules for such a campaign. Under the standard rules, about the only way you can get a weak or average character is to intentionally gimp him somehow.
Because it started the trend and has influenced every RPG to come out since its inception? Hence the use of " I do have to say that D&D pretty much ruined a lot of mindsets regarding that."
And no, the movie doesn't start after the good guy already won. But most movies don't have the good guy sitting around, spending months studying and training to improved his Pistol skill by +1 to win, either.
And no, the movie doesn't start after the good guy already won. But most movies don't have the good guy sitting around, spending months studying and training to improved his Pistol skill by +1 to win, either.
| QUOTE |
| But most movies don't have the good guy sitting around, spending months studying and training to improved his Pistol skill by +1 to win, either. |
But books, good ones even, can and often do have such moments.
Which is why I said there's nothing wrong it, either. I just think it's a shame that so many players expect it and find the notion of being at the top of the game antithesis to good gaming or the "spirit" of roleplaying.
Now, just one minute. I never said that I was talking about a D&D style character advancement. After all, D&D and Shadowrun are two entirely different games. However, I do see progression as something important. Not everyone is gonna start out as some ultra character type. Weither we're talking D&D, Shadowrun, the White Wolf games, Big Eyes Small Mouth, or any other RPG out there, characters have to start someplace.
I am not saying that you have to spend months improving your skills, but I also don't really see the point as starting out as "the best" either. You have to be able to strike some kinda balance between startnig a character with some actual skill and who stil has some ways to go before they become a living legended like Captain Chaos, or FastJack or any of the others out there.
I am not saying that you have to spend months improving your skills, but I also don't really see the point as starting out as "the best" either. You have to be able to strike some kinda balance between startnig a character with some actual skill and who stil has some ways to go before they become a living legended like Captain Chaos, or FastJack or any of the others out there.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| Which is why I said there's nothing wrong it, either. I just think it's a shame that so many players expect it and find the notion of being at the top of the game antithesis to good gaming or the "spirit" of roleplaying. |
This reminds me of a friend of mine. He would always hate playing in games where the characters were competant or well-established. If the power-level was very high he though the game was all about munckinism and all sorts of things. I never could explain to him the differences.
Personally I like playing in both styles of games. Most of our very first shadowrunning crew is still around and when we 'retired' them they were quite powerful. I can't seem to talk anyone into bringing them back into the action. They all seem to think it would be pointless considering their powerlevel and what not. I think however that it'd be a great time and could make for a an awesome story considering how well-developed all of the characters and contacts and such are.
Ah well, to each his own. I do have to agree it seems most people don't seem to enjoy a game unless they're constantly being rewarded with material or Karma/XP-type awards.
Lime can you give me some examples of interesting gampaigns/plots that begin after the characters already are the best there is?
Heat.
I disgree that in Heat Neil Mcauley and his crew were the best. They were competent yes, but they were definitely falliable, as evidenced by the fact that they got basically all screwed in the end, by one cop with too much time on their hands. I wouldn't give them more than 100-200 karma by SR rules, they all would be pretty easy to build.
Just off the top of my head: Formula 51, Grosse Point Blank, Heat, Kill Bill, Leon the Professional, Ocean's Eleven, Pulp Fiction, Reservoir Dogs, The Saint, and The Transporter. At least regarding most of the stars in each.
As for the post you wrote while I was typing that: Well duh. By "Shadowrun rules" -- and most RPGs in general -- there's no such thing as a "final character." And just because some of them don't have an easy time doing everything they do, that hardly signifies that they're not at the top of their game. Immunity to failure as a guideline? Please.
As for the post you wrote while I was typing that: Well duh. By "Shadowrun rules" -- and most RPGs in general -- there's no such thing as a "final character." And just because some of them don't have an easy time doing everything they do, that hardly signifies that they're not at the top of their game. Immunity to failure as a guideline? Please.
Also, I didn't ask for movies, I asked for campaigns and plots, as in Shadowrun. Movies are not interactive, they can be told however someone feels like, and nothing in them has to be earned. They are simply written.
Also yes, I will argue that none of those movies featured anything other than a focus on the limited world of the main characters, so in none of those movies do you know if there was anyone better. All you know is that they were pretty good. I have a feeling were arguing past each other. Yes, you can easily play a campaign with characters that are pretty good, which is not remotely the same thing as the best there is.
I understand with what youre saying and I dont think I disagree with you, I do however think I have a problem with the way you're explaining it. The best there is is the old man sitting on the mountaintop that noone in the world can beat in kung fu, ect. If anyone can do it better, then he's not the best there is.
I agree that high end games can be run with no problem at all. The only problem with it is mechanically, Shadowrun tends to break down at high karma levels because the game wasnt really designed for it. Everything gets more and more binary where a bad roll isn't 2 less sucesses and you take an extra wound level, a bad roll is 10 less sucesses and you die outright period. I just think were missing each other on semantics.
Also yes, I will argue that none of those movies featured anything other than a focus on the limited world of the main characters, so in none of those movies do you know if there was anyone better. All you know is that they were pretty good. I have a feeling were arguing past each other. Yes, you can easily play a campaign with characters that are pretty good, which is not remotely the same thing as the best there is.
I understand with what youre saying and I dont think I disagree with you, I do however think I have a problem with the way you're explaining it. The best there is is the old man sitting on the mountaintop that noone in the world can beat in kung fu, ect. If anyone can do it better, then he's not the best there is.
I agree that high end games can be run with no problem at all. The only problem with it is mechanically, Shadowrun tends to break down at high karma levels because the game wasnt really designed for it. Everything gets more and more binary where a bad roll isn't 2 less sucesses and you take an extra wound level, a bad roll is 10 less sucesses and you die outright period. I just think were missing each other on semantics.
Wow, this is what I get for spending a day offline...
| QUOTE |
| what i meant was that saying no to stuff that is legal in the normal rules just because you don't want him to be as effective as the average samurai, that stinks, badly..... |
Okay, this was back in the days of SR2. I can't recall precicely how the player did it, but the first thing was that the availiability cap wasn't in place for this game. I had specially made a point of shutting down APDS ammo, which this player ignored. The rest was an example of the munchkin's art at its finest-- using the State of the Art edge, counterbalanced by the Borrowed Time and Day Job flaws (Day Job I had also specifically banned), purchasing resources multiple times, and then legally buying used deltaware.
Technically, everything he wanted was within the rules. However, I had made it abundantly clear that I wanted a specific power level to this game, which was ignored; and then the rules were twisted, tweaked, and bent, until they were groaning under the pressure and he had a character with MBW and Firearms 6.
| QUOTE |
| Those of us addicted to the game of course spend hours looking through the book at things, thinking 'oh crap... next character definintely gets that...', etc. Then you have the players who say 'shit.. is this this 2nd saturday? Man, I gotta run over to the guys... I think we're playing Shadowpunk today.' |
Personally, I'd rather have the player who spends forever thinking about new characters, their personalities and quirks, as well as their styles; than one who spends forever crunching essence costs to the fourth decimal point.
Number-crunching is an art, but it's best when combined with the roleplayer's art. The numbers are there to assist you in your character concept, not to dominate it. I agree that the numbers are important, but they're not the core of a character.
| QUOTE |
| I think I'm not alone when I say that if a character with a virtually unstoppable character has a good backstory, is played intelligently (on a level beyond combat tactics), and can keep from leaving a trail of bodies in his wake, then he's more or less acceptable (depending on the specific game). The issue isn't the character, it's the attitude of the player as expressed through his character. |
Look, my last character was a decently-twinked troll street sam, who during his history charged into machine-gun fire, and didn't even get hurt. No one complained about his character, though; even though he did turn a few situations into combat that didn't have to, he was clearly a well-thought out, well-played character. He did have anger-management issues, but that was just another aspect of his personality. (Besides which, you try asking a heavily-armed troll to be polite to a bunch of humanis goons for several hours. He managed to last that long, which is more than most combat monsters would.)
Combat monsters, in and of themselves, are not a problem. Even overpowering combat monsters-- like my troll-- are not a problem in an intelligently-run game. (Bad guys couldn't hurt him; but while he dominated combat, the rest of the team still got to do their thing quite effectively. His preferred tactic was to go in and cause a big distraction, freeing others to cause the real damage.)
| QUOTE |
| this is what i still haven't understood, the decker's supposed to own in the matrix, the mage on the astral, the vehicle rigger on the road..... so why can't the poor samurai be dominating in combat, since that's what he's supposed to do? |
The decker is not supposed to "own" in the matrix-- he's supposed to be the one who handles it, that's all. How good he is at it depends on his opposition, and the power level of the game. But still, if the whole game is a matrix run-- or a big combat scene-- then it's not fun for the non-matrix characters.
| QUOTE |
| Dax, I'm afraid that Sphynx is actually closer to the spirit and intent of Shadowrun. Shadowrun is unlike D&D in one very significant way; "starting" characters are not the equivalent of first-level characters! Most Shadowrun characters are people who have been doing this for awhile. Look at the face, the street samurai, and the covert ops specialist. They are not beginners. Shadowrunners make runs against corporations - it is not something they have to "work up" to. |
Yes and no. Starting shadowrunners should be capable, and professional; unline first-level characters in D&D. What they shouldn't be are demigods who deign to be dealing with the rest of us mere mortals. "Legendary" status, like that of Fastjack and Dodger, should be something to "work up" to.
if a decker starts a alarm, the run is hosed and the group may be too, since the knockout gas starts pouring into the room, no-one complains if the deckers player tries to make the best decker he can, within the rules.....
but, OH BOY! if the samurai tries to be the best he can in combat.....
And, the "if the samurai dies, the group is hosed in the overpowered combat" argument: well, yeah, and if the deckers brain starts smoking the group can't open the locked door behind them while the hellhounds attack....
note that i've taken the decker and samurai thus far, since both are incredibly important for a run, i am 100% sure that most runs can be done perfectly well without any type of awakened character, in the worst case the Elven face can duke it out with a spirit in melee..... and do better than the samurai.....
i'll be gone for a few days, until monday, so you guys won't have to see my worthless, meta and powergaming face until then..... (the rest of dumpshock:
)
but, OH BOY! if the samurai tries to be the best he can in combat.....
And, the "if the samurai dies, the group is hosed in the overpowered combat" argument: well, yeah, and if the deckers brain starts smoking the group can't open the locked door behind them while the hellhounds attack....
note that i've taken the decker and samurai thus far, since both are incredibly important for a run, i am 100% sure that most runs can be done perfectly well without any type of awakened character, in the worst case the Elven face can duke it out with a spirit in melee..... and do better than the samurai.....
i'll be gone for a few days, until monday, so you guys won't have to see my worthless, meta and powergaming face until then..... (the rest of dumpshock:
)
| QUOTE (Rev) |
| GM's are rare. Players are common. |
You aint been around to my neck of the world have you?
I think I've got about 3 players now and I'm the only GM on island.
Anywho, everyone here has some good arguements.
And even SolidCobra had a good point in his last post.
Hey, I think FASA tried to cover this is some of the old weapons books.
Look at the Street Sam Catalog. In the back there's an article written by Wedge about thinking before you act and how cyberware can't replace brains.
Then there's Fields of Fire with Matador's whole spiel about being a professional.
Although I probably violated a copyright law or two, I typed up Wedge's article on my laptop back in the states and I was going to at Matador's post (but to add the comments or not...) but then I got transfered. I recomend it as good reading for new players.
Just remember Ghost in the Shell: "When you become too specialized, you breed weakness."
Hopefully Joker's learned to use the gameworld to his advantage (like the lack of cyclopes outside the Medderiarran, and building artchitecture.)
Now was I helpful or was I off a little?
Mediterranean. Took me a while.
| QUOTE |
| if a decker starts a alarm, the run is hosed and the group may be too, since the knockout gas starts pouring into the room, no-one complains if the deckers player tries to make the best decker he can, within the rules..... but, OH BOY! if the samurai tries to be the best he can in combat..... |
I disagree. My group never puts a decker into that position, and always has backup plans. The group never depends on a decker, the decker is just nice to have. That point is completely false with my group.
| QUOTE |
| And, the "if the samurai dies, the group is hosed in the overpowered combat" argument: well, yeah, and if the deckers brain starts smoking the group can't open the locked door behind them while the hellhounds attack.... |
Thats why a smart group doesnt back themselves up into a position where the decker is a life or drath situation. As I mentioned above. They also always have someone with electronics and electronics b/r capable of physically opening a lock, or someone with demolitions to blow the door, or a thermite cutting torch, just exactly for those situations. It's called being prepared. Also, all the players have at least passable combat skills so when the drek does hit the fan they are not screwed when they have to fight.
It's not a matter of powergaming, and I dont hold anything against you, iys just a matter of having completely different experiences with the way groups and GM's operate.
In some games the play is built around the characters, while in my game the players build characters to fit in the world. My world does not fundamentally change because of the types of PC's that are playing. The worls has a static reality to it, and every game I play takes place in the same seattle, sometimes at the same time, with previous parties sometimes passing the existing party as their timeline is played out. Every game I have ever run still exists in my game world, as does all their contacts and major events. My players do not just play the game, they help influence the history of my world. as a result of that the way the game works must be consistent.
It's not a matter of powergaming, and I dont hold anything against you, iys just a matter of having completely different experiences with the way groups and GM's operate.
In some games the play is built around the characters, while in my game the players build characters to fit in the world. My world does not fundamentally change because of the types of PC's that are playing. The worls has a static reality to it, and every game I play takes place in the same seattle, sometimes at the same time, with previous parties sometimes passing the existing party as their timeline is played out. Every game I have ever run still exists in my game world, as does all their contacts and major events. My players do not just play the game, they help influence the history of my world. as a result of that the way the game works must be consistent.
Just as a reminder, not all combat has to be to the death. If the gun-toting sociopath gets killed in a fight, the others may want to try running or surrendering. If they continue fighting something that killed their toughest character easily, they deserve to die. If they surrender, the GM can give them a chance to escape or just kill them depending on how they RP as a captive.
The munchkin brigade's commentary is as, ah, interesting as ever, but rather misplaced. The problem is not that these characters are effective in a fight (they're not, particularly, when it comes right down to it... but that's beside the point). The problem is that they can't do anything but fight... and even that is just a symptom of the real problem, which is that the player doesn't seem to be aware that there are other facets to the game besides kicking as much ass as possible.
A sammy who can handle himself in a fight, even kick massive amounts of ass in a fight, is not a problem. He's an asset.
A character who is incapable of interacting with NPCs in non-combat situations is a problem. A player who starts fights when it's not necessary, even when it's actively counterproductive, because it's the only thing his character is any good at, or because it's the only thing he has any interest in, is a problem.
It's that latter situation we're talking about here.
A sammy who can handle himself in a fight, even kick massive amounts of ass in a fight, is not a problem. He's an asset.
A character who is incapable of interacting with NPCs in non-combat situations is a problem. A player who starts fights when it's not necessary, even when it's actively counterproductive, because it's the only thing his character is any good at, or because it's the only thing he has any interest in, is a problem.
It's that latter situation we're talking about here.
| QUOTE (Dax) |
| Sphynx, I have to ask for some clarification from you on your stance. Do you advocate all this cyberware and number crunching at character creation, or as a gradual progression as you get more karma/cash. In my personal opinion, it isn;t a good idea to give your character everything from the get go. I do belive in somewhat of a progression with my Shadowrun chracters. Start with very little and get more as your street rep increases, so that by the time the AAA's are hireing you, you do have the Wired 3 and all that stuff. I do have a problem when people hand me a brand new character that has Wired Reflexes 3 and tons of other cyberware that no one else (not even the other Street Sam) has. That is gonna cause problems right out of the gate. Though, I am a firm beliver in the concept of there being no "Make or Break" peices of Cyberware, or no "Make or Break" spells or adapt powers. I also belive that high numbers do not a kick ass character make. Your numbers are meaningless to me unless you got a background and a personality for that character. That way, the interaction between your character and the rest of the team will become ingrained into the mythos of the campaign. I use the D&D campaign I play in as an example. During the years we have played in that campaign, we have found artifacts, tangled with demon lords, and gotten massive piles of treasure. However, when we talk about our characters, we don't talk about their stats or what treasure they have. We talk about the famous qoutes they've said, the dumb ass mistakes we've made, our cleaver tricks that have won the day. In essance, its about what our characters say and do. Likewise in Shadowrun. How else do you find out what the terminal velocity of a salad thrown by an irrate elf is. |
Sorry for the delayed response, I don't log on much over the weekends.
Yes, I encourage all the cyberware and number crunching at character creation. As a matter of fact, I get annoyed at my players if they don't. Don't turn a weak character to me and then try to explain how he's a ShadowRunner. This isn't a job for a 17 year old kid, it's a job for someone who's "been there". Maybe not universally, but in my games, definitely.
As for getting everything from the get-go, the book encourages that. If you don't believe me, use the rules and get some implants. Good luck deciding what to do with those negative options you'll pick up. But despite that, all my min-maxxed players (and my own characters) plan for their next 500 karma and next 10 million nuyen, no joke. Look at the speedster character Cobra in our current game. The page is a bit old, but you have any idea how much it cost him to raise his Basic Grade Reaction Enhancers, rating 3 to an Alpha Grade rating 6? But he planned it at char-gen to be 'the fastest'. Calculated it exactly so that his Essence + BioIndex was going to be exactly 9.0 (something that couldn't be afforded at char-gen)
Getting as good as you can get at char-gen will leave plenty of room for improvement for a good min-maxxer.
But anyhows, our games are seemingly alot different than yours. We've spent maybe 10 games total in Corps, never hit an AA, and have more experience dealing with Insect Spirits, Mercenary Work (we're primarily yucatan/aztlan type of 'runners'), toxics, etc. Corp running is not campaign level, if you stick to running shadows, you'll not love the game like we do, as it gets boring after awhile. At least in a Merc environment, you pick what you're gonna hit (no Johnson), and you have large goals (admittedly, often more like terrorists, but just as fun as running)
Sorry for rambling.
Sphynx
You can give the sam bad ass Street Samurai character to both a munchkin player and a non-munchkin player. The munchkin player will do all he can to use that character to fight and show off all the goodies and toys and what a well tweaked killing machine he is. On the other hand the non-munchkin player will take the same character and figure out how to actually play the character as a person that happens to have become a bad ass killing machine for whatever reason
The problem isn't the caracters or how well tweaked they are or anything else. The problem here is the players who can't get past showing off their characters specialty to the detriment of the game.
I've played in plenty of games where non-sammi munchkins did the same thing with similar effect. It's just boring for everyone else who is trying to play and not grand stand.
The problem isn't the caracters or how well tweaked they are or anything else. The problem here is the players who can't get past showing off their characters specialty to the detriment of the game.
I've played in plenty of games where non-sammi munchkins did the same thing with similar effect. It's just boring for everyone else who is trying to play and not grand stand.
Connor hit the nail smack dab on the head. Look, when I was playing the twinked-out troll sammie, even though he started fights when he shouldn't have and kicked a lot of butt in combat, he was an entertaining character to have around. (Having a fine art skill of 9 certainly helped; one run, I started a fight with a curator because he swore something was legit when I knew it was a forgery. I was right, too. Still, hearing him lecture on brush strokes while hammering a guy's head against the linoleum was fun for everyone-- even the GM was laughing.)
He was bad at social interactions, but unlike the problem players, he didn't try to avoid them. He was abrasive and crude, but professional enough to respect the pleasantries, and he never started a fight without good reason.
Now, if I were to have his sheet to a true munchkin, I'd probably be laughed at for not twinking him harder. ("A troll with only 15 body dice? Wow, that sucks.") They'd probably grumble and play him, and make him just a random killing machine.
It's not the character, it's the player.
He was bad at social interactions, but unlike the problem players, he didn't try to avoid them. He was abrasive and crude, but professional enough to respect the pleasantries, and he never started a fight without good reason.
Now, if I were to have his sheet to a true munchkin, I'd probably be laughed at for not twinking him harder. ("A troll with only 15 body dice? Wow, that sucks.") They'd probably grumble and play him, and make him just a random killing machine.
It's not the character, it's the player.
That's not a munchkin Conner/Cain, that's a bad roleplayer.
Besides, you're just asking for trouble if you 'hand a character sheet to a munchkin'. True munchkinism requires they create their own character, don't expect a player to be attached to a character they don't make. I love to RP, but if you hand me a character vs me building my own, history and all, I will never get the 'feel' of the character, and if it's a troll killing machine, that's probably how I'd play 'it'.
I'm a munchkin. I never pick fights, or abuse my power. My PC has a Combat Pool of 24, Willpower of 13, Initiative of 4d6, and enough magic quickened to him to light up a city block. You can't tell me that's not munchkin, but your definition in no way fits me nor my character.
So since you're talking about bad role-players, not bad munchkins, those thoughts really don't apply since you can have non-munchkin'd characters played by the same bad-roleplayers.
Sphynx
Besides, you're just asking for trouble if you 'hand a character sheet to a munchkin'. True munchkinism requires they create their own character, don't expect a player to be attached to a character they don't make. I love to RP, but if you hand me a character vs me building my own, history and all, I will never get the 'feel' of the character, and if it's a troll killing machine, that's probably how I'd play 'it'.
I'm a munchkin. I never pick fights, or abuse my power. My PC has a Combat Pool of 24, Willpower of 13, Initiative of 4d6, and enough magic quickened to him to light up a city block. You can't tell me that's not munchkin, but your definition in no way fits me nor my character.
So since you're talking about bad role-players, not bad munchkins, those thoughts really don't apply since you can have non-munchkin'd characters played by the same bad-roleplayers.
Sphynx
Woah, Sphynx. You're not a munchkin, you're a powergamer (or min/maxer, or maybe something else, but if you can avoid fighting at the first opportunity, you're not a munchkin). There's a vast difference. A "munchkin" is a person who powergames (often badly) AND is a bad roleplayer. The term tends to apply to younger gamers (because of age, they tend to be smaller and shorter, which is where the term likely comes from) who are neck deep in the "this is cool" factor of what their character can do and care little about the actual character.
Immature older players can also fall into the munchkin mold, as well.
Immature older players can also fall into the munchkin mold, as well.
Curiosity: Where do you get your definition of a Munchkin?
Sphynx
Sphynx
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