I recently changed a pys adept into a cyberzombie, sort of against her will.
She has an idea that she wants to know if it will work. I told her she'll have to find out in character, but in reality I don't know myself.
First, I remember reading somewhere that cloned bodies aren't conscious and are kept alive by medical machines. She wants to know if she can clone herself and have some magicians put her astral form, soul, into the cloned body, thus ridding her of her cyberzombie body.
What do you dumpshockers think? Possible?

Easier to put her in touch with Aleph. (Threats 2)

I would say anything you, as the GM want to allow, is possible. Personally, I think it would be pretty neat as an adventure (and a world changing one at that). It would be mighty expensive and difficult, but with all the gear in the cyberzombie body, that should help that. It would also be neat if she moves into this new body with all of her essence holes still there, forcing her to do some special quests to help return her to full power.

All canon arguments aside, it sounds like a cool idea. I like what nezumi said about possibilities, other ideas might be to allow her to transfer, requiring her and all the mages involved go on an initiate quest (and if you can wangle it so all the other players go as well, so much the better), remembering that the more people go, the harder it is to succeed. It sounds like that ritual would need a hell of a lot of power, so that would be a lot of people as well, or at least a few people with some mondo foci and powers.

bear in mind, as well, that you are setting what could be a dangerous precedent, so be careful to make the point that its very, very hard - it will cost a LOT, one way or another, in money and favours etc - and probably a one-off. If necessary, kill or otherwise render useless (e.g. stripped of power, brain damage) all the mages involved in the ritual. If this becomes a documentable technique or even a known one, there are going to be all kinds of problems - effectively immortal executives or bad guys.

Where would it end? If they can transfer a spirit, they can work out a way to store one, at least for a time. If they can work out a way to do that, they can probably work how to 'precast' the spell, so that even if you shoot a target through the head, killing him instantly, an anchored spell or foci may activate transferring his spirit over to the waiting clone. Of course, it might only work for Awakened beings as only their spirit is strong enough or somesuch, but even that would still be quite dangerous.

I like the idea, but if you allow players to do it, you have to allow bad guys the chance to do it, and vice versa. It might be next to impossible for the NPCs to manage it, but if the players did, then they can, however much time or resources or however many flat out lucky rolls it takes.

Well, fundamentally I thing that the GM was kind fo wrong for forcing on her character something which she seems to not have any fun doing.

By canon rules there is no such thing as a viable clone in shadowrun. A clone cannot be made that is actually alive.

The GM however can actually do whatever he wants.

Oooooooooooooooo

What is the clone has an astral presence as well? I know clones aren't viable, but if with this one kinda is, due to the process it's being cloned for? Then you have to decide what to do.. push out one astral presence from the body so the old tattered one can find a home OR find a way to merge the two of them? Kind of moral delima that would require the same kinda adventures. The astral "presence" could even become part of the character.. a second personality or ghost like thing or some such.

i'd do the opposite. the operation is a success, she wakes up in her new body, everything is cool--and then, the CZ sits up and looks around.

if you're gonna do this, i'd make her pay through the nose for it. i'd strip her of her initiation grades completely, start her off with only the basic 6 pp.

for a truly interesting look at souls-as-data, check out the Ghost series by LE Modessit.

If her essence is an indicator of her 'soul', and she's a cyberzom with low, if not sub-zero essence, does she really have a soul that can be transferred?

A negative quantity in a container is not a very sensible paradigm (ignoring some interesting quantum properties). If you see essence as the link between flesh and spirit, then negative essence merely means there is a repulsive force between the two and it takes specialized ritual magic to overcome that force. This perspective has drawbacks, like it is easy to argue essence return in such a system, but provides a simple explanation of how cybermancy works.

This has been discussed to some degree, but I'll put in my two cents:

You cannot remove the spirit from one body and place it in another body. The closest that has ever been attempted to this involved Thomas Roxburough of AZT.

Now theoretically if you has a living, healthy body without a conscious mind <a clone would not be viable for this, and cloning technology still hasn't overcome a few wee hurdles>, and your cyberzombie was in an astral rift so that they could project, and said cyberzombie was a magician with the metamagic power of Possessing, then the cyberzombie's astral form could possess the body.

Now, IF that body was treated with the same binding spells that the typical cyberzombie has...then the astral form might be "trapped" in the host body and fairly well off. Except that their connection to their own body might still be intact, in which case if the cyberzombie body dies, so do they.

Essence isn't so-much a measure of soul, but your soul's attachment to your body. Making CZs is essentially binding your soul to your body with XXX-tra strong magic.

The way I'd go about it is as follows:
She gets the clone made (They can set-up good enough wards that shedim won't be poking around the cloning facility regularily)
She finds the right people (A group of mages capible of cybermancy)
She finds a free spirit from the metaplane of the dead with the astral gateway power (Like it's not easy )
She gets the free spirit to use the astral gateway power on both bodies
She projects to the metaplane of the dead and attempts to pursuade the parts of her soul that left to come back
The mages place a cybermantic bond around both bodies
She gets the mages to dispel the bonds on her old body (& kill it for added effect)
The mages tighten the bonds so that they are to the new body.
She returns from the quest, brought back by the spirit, who forces her essence into her new body with the help of the cybermancy mages.

The last step is a bit weak. It would be better if she was an initiate who knew Posession metamagic.

Would she get a full 6 essence back? I'd still think she'd be stuck at whatever essence she had been reduced to. She might not have to deal with the physical cyberattachments, but she probably wouldn't get a free reset of essence just because she's in a clone body.

Cyberzombies are rad! (yes, I just said "rad") so this caught my attention.

I don't like this scenario; although I mess with a lot of canon things, I don't change magic (much) or major setting elements. Then again, anyone can do whatever they want in their game, so that doesn't matter.

I was thinking she'd get her magic and essence back from her trip to the plane of the dead.

Essence in canon, never, ever comes back period. Furthermore if her essence dropped to or below zero she is permanently mundane, her magic is lost forever.

Certs? I dinnae recall that. Will have to relook some rules. Will dissapoint all those brave fools wishing to Initiate and then become cyberzombies.

I believe that's in the main book. I havea bookshelf coming in tomorrow so I can unpack all my SR books and be less of a gimp

The description of the cyberzombie ritual says that it strips all the character's magic, IIRC. (And since cyberzombiedom is the only way to stick around after essence hits zero, that's the only place it could really be.) And it's on P. 57, M&M, last sentence of Magical Resistance for those who want to be niggling about it.

I can't comment on the astral or spiritual viability of clones, except to say that cellular degeneration might make cloning risky. But considering what had happened to the character, I would have no problem with letting him do such a thing after a grueling metaplanar quest. I'd even let ritual sorcery or some metamagical ritual technique open up an astral gateway for him. After all, astral quests give you as the GM an excuse to include pointless funky settings, and are the catch-all for allowing strange magical effects.

There has been debate about how acceptable such a process is, but I have a different angle you need to consider.

Attributes, my basic guide.
A quote has been given that once cyberzombied, a mage is no longer magically capable. Keep that after the massively spirit and ritual aided clonal possession. If you are generous, allow the totem (or another source of power) to let the character atone through initiation, starting at MR of 1.

Mental attributes should be unchanged.

All physical attributes should be set to racial norm or less. Assuming human, I would insist that the clone's physical attributes be at best 3 before and immediately after the reunification.

..

Try "cyberzombie with -3 essence." There, 9 essence lost.

well, what she's getting is, by the rules, impossible. it's a once-in-a-lifetime thing that will never, ever happen again. this is the event that defines her entire life. there's no such thing as "putting her through too much".

Bitbasher, I'd allow the next player who wants to perform miracles a chance too. Just as the cyberzombie wannabe "ressurrectee" has "a chance" to perform a miracle.

The key word there being, a chance.

The GM should make an adventure suited to the mythic difficulty of the task, not to the abilities of the player. And if this means that the player who attempts is likely to die, so be it. So long as he knows the risks and the odds before the sets out on his quest, he has no right to whine that impossible tasks aren't easy.

After all, if I want to assassinate Damien Knight, I have a chance. I have a much greater chance of being turned into a fine red mist by his perimeter security, but it's theoretically possible that I don't roll anything under an 18 on that run. But nothing stops players from attempting the legendary, and in a fantasy-tinged world like Shadowrun, the outer limits of extreme probability stretch pretty far indeed.

RE Clone viability in canon

I'm unaware what SOTA 63 said on clones but the novel Streets of Blood(?) had a mad clone which leads me to think that non-viable clones are simply a bit dodgy rather than not being able to survive.

Wasn't Shadowtech discussing forced growth cloning when it described them as unviable?

It's a bit silly if full body cloning with natural growth doesn't work in SR, considering the present. That said, I don't think the earlier SR books expressly stated it one way or the other.

Well, it was directly stated, and no it doesnt make a lot of sense given todays technology. It was stated in Shadowtech if I recll that "Cloning a full human is beyond even current cloning technology".

But that was in 2052, over 10 years ago in the cannon storyline.

On the subject of getting Essence back if implanted in a clone(assuming that works): The answer I'd go with is yes, based on what I've read in Tir Na Nog and Cybertechnology and the intro to M&M. Essence loss is equitable to the difference between the aural template and the physical housing (body) of this template. If a clone is a true copy of the adept, then it would perfectly mesh with spirit of the adept, resulting in a body with 6 essence. That's my take on it. The template theory is in cybertechnology and Tir Na Nog.

Now, as to getting and keeping magic, here's where the pickle begins, as I wasn't sure that a cyberzombie lost magic. If so, then the adept will get the essence back, assuming a perfect switch, but maybe not the magic. One has to hope that the genetic cyberzombie body will not develop cancer, which could be transferable to the clone. Plus, you can hope that the magic genes awaken again with the addition of the spirit and the meshing of the body and spirit templates.

My two cents. Sorry for the long post. And Good luck

Don

Or, its also entirely possible that the aura will have to be bound to the new body too. There's no reason that it would stay, it's already died, and it trying to leave while being held in this plan of existance by magical force alone. You may end up with a cancer ridden clean body that behaves like a cyberzombie because its essence is still shackled to this plan of existance in an unnatural state.

Something hit me in regards to this question and I came up with something.

1) A viable clone body. I'm sticking to my guns on this essence loss = difference between aural and physical template with the addition that alterations to the physical template cannot be recovered except through extraordinary cases, i.e. Nosferatu the novel being one case. Replacing the cyber with meat will not bring back essence. An extraordinary case, however, would be switching bodies. So a cloned body would be the first requirement.

2) The rib bone of the last man she was intimate with. From a biblical bent, the rib was the material basis of a woman. This should be ritually enchanted for an important part later on. Read as a ritual magic, but sub in enchanting rather than ritual sorcery, without a spell pool or foci to rely on.

That's about as far as technology can go.

3) Astral quests. I'd go with 9, as that's how much essence she's lost (6 + |-3|=9). These must be done during the ritual enchanting, which should take days. 6 is a good number, as that's the day that God made man (and by extention humanity). This is meant to deal with the karma hazing, as there are only 2 ways (in theory) that natural balance can be restored: return from the state of being a cyberzombie or death.

4) On the 6th day, a personal astral quest should be made by the subject. She should also have the bone with her. This quest should be on the Metaplane of life, symbolizing her return to life. As she is an adept, as opposed to an aspected magician, this might be difficult. Again, part of what the team must figure out in order for her to be free of her own dead prison.

5) Modified test for finding one's way home, per SR3. This should be done while at the citadel, in order to find her way to a meat body.

6) Possession test in order to basically "move back in."

My major problem with my own ideas are that the final parts are heavily dependent on die rolls. I'd like to have a role-playing component that could add dice or benefit the character, rather than trusting completely to the whims of fate.

On the whole, what do you think?

Don

of course, you've got to have hit teams trying to steal one or both of the adept's bodies, while she's out doing her quests. then, during the final operation, there'll be the big end battle, towards the end of which she'll wake up in her new body--and so will whatever's possessed the CZ body. battle royale ensues, curtain closes, applause.

Look at the intro to M&M. Essence loss equals integration into the body. If no ware is integrated into the body, then in theory, replacing the missing parts is merely bringing the body back into "true." OTOH, there is the chance of lossing essence by suffering deadly damage, i.e. shock to the spirit, much like the aftereffects of going into shock.

I thought on the injury table that essence was also included as an attribute that could shrink; may be just 2nd ed or my memory has betrayed me on this point.

As to the example, well it does carry my own personal biases (yep, I'm a Lutheran), but it can serve as a template for undertaking this type of operation. It's how I personally would run it, although it's open to change religiously. The essentials would be 1) cloned body, 2) ritually enchanted token that is a link to creation/new life/usable for breaking the cybermantic binding, 3) 9 Astral quests, 4) personal astral quest, 5) finding way home, 6) moving back in.

Don

Normally Im not 'for' real hacking of cannon, but this has peaked my intrest. This shouldent be easy, ni on impossible, and should sock her with a mess of quirky astral edge/flaw things, but WTF, go for it. Fill it with imagery, cram all the 'weird voodoo magic' you can into it, and prehaps some sick twisted god smiles on her and she has a second lease on life. Besides, if this PC can, in time, get a natural clone, a magical group who can use cybermancy (and will do it), find all the needed sprites and arrange the needed powers, and other wise get everything in order, why the hell not? IMO, a good price (on top of what ever is reasonable) for the magical group would be her bodys when shes done with them. Sure, why not blood mages, who know cybermancy. Note the plural. Besides, a corpse stuffed with delta-ware is gonna be worth a mint, and do you wanna let your players get away with that?