Okay so Improved invisibility affects electronic equipment. So id figure cameras and the like. Obviously you can still be detected by sound. My question is would thermographic sensors still notice you since they work by heat not visual information. Would this extend to characters with natural thermographic vision?

Further if improved invisibility made you invisible to thermographic sensors how would it do so? It would havee to make you room temperature so how would an illusion spell know to make you room temperature?

1) I think an argument can be made that thermographics is simply a form of light, and since light is bent by the spell thermographics would not detect invisible opponents.

2) By bending the high-energy light that is heat.

However, this assumes that the Imp. Invis. spell beats the OR of your thermographics 'ware.

Really, improved invisibility is just one of the reasons why ultrasound sensors are awesome.

Actually infrared light (aka heat radiation) is lower energy than visible light or ultaviolet light or x-rays. Otherwise you nailed it, Neraph.

Well, this argument could be made for the whole spectrum. All electromagnetic waves...

Ultrasound is for detecting invisi, chameleon suits, etc..

The description of the invisibility spell specifically states that it works on thermographic vision. It works on the visual spectrum (for purposes of the spell, thermographic vision is apparently considered part of that), not the entire electromagnetic spectrum.

Well, if it does not stat whose visibility was meant - if you have a creature that can see the entire electromagnetic spectrum, would the spell work?

Wait, wait, so a UV scanner would work?

If you mean UWB radar, then yeah. Unless the GM says otherwise.

Otherwise you'd have to clarify what you mean by UV scanner.

Ultraviolet (UV) light is electromagnetic radiation with a wavelength shorter than that of visible light, but longer than X-rays, in the range 10 nm to 400 nm, and energies from 3 eV to 124 eV.

Ahhh.. yeah.
It's just I'm not aware of such item in SR as a UV scanner.

As in, "How is that relevant to breaking Imp. Invs. in Shadowrun?" rather than "How do I UVs?"

Point is, visible and near visible are covered by the spell, but EM outside of that range is not explicitly covered and would require GM adjudication.

That adjudication being based on how they interpret Ultrasound and all that mess.
It kind of falls into that whole discussion on Ultrasound where Ultrasound says that it can work against "Invisibility" (rather than calling out Improved Invisibility by name) so it's a possible reading that Ultrasound is fooled by Imp Invs, even though that breaks fluff, and, by extension, potentially violates RAI. Meanwhile, UWB radar says "yeah, it's the same rules as Ultrasound basically" which would suggest that would bypass Imp Invis too, except that, this time, it's actually EM radiation instead of sound, which would pass the fluff test and not violate RAI.

There are UV and X-ray mods for goggles in Spy Games

Spy Games page 151, stats on page 155.



-k

flour-bombs.
well, technically.
but we'd have to go into the whole debate of:"How does this work?"

Thanks guys. I didn't have the book with me to check the spell description.

Though I thought invisibility was purely an illusion (since its an illusion spell). The actual bending of light seems problematic at least in the real world. Black holes bend light to the point light orbits the black hole but pit doesn't become invisible it becomes black. So how would bending light make something invisible?

At the sametime this is a game and doesn't have to work out

We have Metamaterials IRL now that perform 'invisibility' on specific wavelengths.

By 'bending' it is commonly meant to adjust the direction of travel of whatever wavelength so that the object being hidden never interacts with it. If no interaction happens then there is no detectable disturbance and therefore you do not see the object.

Though one of the problems with describing it as 'bending' is that you would not be able to see anything yourself as all light travels around you and therefore none can reach your eyes. In another scenerio you could describe it as making yourself transparent, however this has the issue that light from all directions would reach your eyes rather then being focuses from one direction, a headache or partial insanity would be justified. However this is a fantasy setting so "its magic, a wizard did it" applies.

There are other forms of invisibility being worked around, one uses a LOT of small cameras and displays to basically show an image of what is behind you on the front or some other sophisticated imaging system. These two come to mind.
Japanese Cloak, Mirage Cloak

Actually, no, Black Holes don't really become black.
No light is reflected outwards, so we can't really see the black hole itself.
We just see where there should be something and there is not.

Also, Improved invisibility has ALWAYS been problematic.
Does stuff the affected character carries also go invisible?
What happens when he drops stuff? Does it stay invisible?
And what about picking stuff up? Does stuff go invisible?

This is why I like pressure plates and monofilament wire trip lines for security. It doesn't matter how invisible someone is.

Why would Improved Invisibility work against ultrasound? That would be like Stealth making you invisible.


Yes.


No.


Yes.

I was pretty sure these were all explicitly answered; does SR4 not spell these things out?

No.

It does not tell us how far out the invisibility extends either.
You are casting the invisibility AT A CHARACTER. Does it make his cloths invisible too?
Usually, if you affect a character with something via magic, the clothes/gear don't get affected at all.
Elemental Spells being the exception due to their elemental effects.

How about if a gnome climbs into the backpack of an invisible troll? Are they both invisible, or does the gnome appear to be magically suspended in mid-air?

Effectively to anything within the target's aura that's "in the possession" of the target. So not the sidewalk he's trodding on, but the shoes he's trodding with. But if these answers aren't in SR4, then your guess is as good as mine.

So how would it work in the region not near visible? specicially

Radio
Microwave
terahertz
Far InfraRed
X-ray?

Don't start on what is light and what not because of te whole electromagnetic spectrum stuff <.<
Basically, everything that can be seen by natural eyes(be it human or metahuman) is covered under improved invisibility i think.
That covers normal optical spectrum for humans and infra dead for dwarves and trolls.

This is pretty much it.
Some animals (eg. bees) can actually see in the UV spectrum, and it could theoretically be a SURGE trait.

Don't think anything can see microwaves though.

My ruling has always been - and this could be backed up by something written or not; my memory is not with me today - that it covers UV and near infrared, but not radar or cosmic rays or radio, et cetera.

You know what frustrates the hell out of invisible intruders?

Doors.






-k

Heh... Indeed. There you have it, the definitive answer.

Ultrasound sensor works wonders at "seeing" invisible things, says so right in it's description.

As does the UWB Radar.

Speaking as a private individual/GM and not as an official representative of anything, I would rule that Improved Invisibility is effective on Thermographic and UV, and anything else explicitly defined as a "vision" mode. I'd rule that it doesn't work on Radar or Ultrasound or an Olfactory Booster because those aren't forms of vision.

Concealment, on the other hand, I'd assume works on everything, but of course it's not as effective. "You get a -5 to Perceive me" is not as strongly worded as "you cannot see me".

A big gray area for me that I'd like to discuss is Astral Perception. If Invisibility works on Astral Perception, that makes sense...but wouldn't an assensing character be able to see the SPELL that was making you invisible? Likewise, how does Concealment interact with Astral Perception. Is "stealth" truly impossible on the astral plane?

Not gonna lie, this is a topic that has always fascinated/frustrated me. Going back to before Fourth Edition, too.

The only way we know where a black hole is, if there is a star orbiting the black hole, or the remains of a star going into the black hole.

Invisibility doesn't work on astral perception, is the short form of that answer, but you're absolutely right that the spell itself would be visible, as well, even if the character weren't [say, if the character were Masked, but the spell was not].

You can make an Infiltration test on the Astral using Intelligence + Infiltration.

Concealment though is a Physical power, and therefore can't target an astral entity.
Powers are stupid though. It works on astral perception if you're dual-natured, but not on astral perception if you're not physically present? Dumb.

The invisibility spell specifically states that the subject's aura is still visible to astral perception.

The big problem with improved invisibility actually bending light waves is that if it does that, then it makes no sense whatsoever as a resisted spell. They should go back to "creates actual sensory input" from SR3, which was difficult to grasp for some people, but made improved invisibility's affects plausible (namely, that some people will see you, and some people won't). Either that, or they should make it a manipulation spell that works similarly to a ruthenium sneak suit.

Could you expand on this? I'm still not up enough on SR4 to understand its intricacies.

Resisted spells mean that you roll against the caster's successes. If you win, the spell doesn't affect you. How can this be, if the spell is actually physically making the subject invisible? Well, actually, it says you "determine that the illusion is not real". So what the heck does that actually mean, for invisibility? And why do you need to beat the object resistance for sensors? If you're actually changing how light is reflected, it should work, period, and instead of resistance tests, targets should get perception tests to spot you, presumably by noticing some flaw, wavering distortion, or a spot that you missed.

The mechanics made perfect sense in SR3, because physical illusions didn't bend light around the subject, but zapped the targets with false sensory input. But unfortunately, they completely changed the fluff about how physical illusions work, without changing the rules to reflect it.

Thank you, it's good to be back.


That's why I trust the Crunch and not the Fluff.

When I saw this thread topic yesterday, the first thing that popped into my mind was "paint bombs". But then I thought 'would the spell 'absorb' the paint thrown onto an invisible character and make it invisible too? Is the spell adaptive? Hmm, maybe that wouldn't work so well after all.'

So I dunno.

Low-tech as it is, paint-bombs or the bag-o-flour trick would foil invisibility in my game. Gangers have to have some way to deal with an invisible dude attacking them ...

Forgot to say, smoke would also react to an invisible guy moving through it. I wouldn't let smoke negate the invisibility, but I would reduce the penalty to target invisible person from -6 (blind fire) to -4 or -2.

INVISIBILITY CHECK! *Sprays hallway with full-auto shotgun loaded with buckshot*

Awesome, I see what you mean, now. Thank you, Glyph.


My understanding [rooted in previous editions] is that if you threw a bag of flour onto an invisible target, yes, the flour would become invisible once it entered the spell's area of effect, or when it touched the target, or something of that sort. [There being a difference of a handspan or so between the two.] But in that instant where the flour disappeared, you'd certainly see the outline of the target, writ in the boundary between visible flour and invisible flour. So a constant supply of flour - or, please heavens, something like water, or paint, because that's a lot of flour - would provide a constant outline. Smoke, as Midas says, is probably the best source of "constant supply," by virtue of being an aerosol.

If your security team has gas masks, use smoke derived from Bhut Jolokia chili peppers.

You get to detect invisible intruders by the movement of the smoke AND their screaming.






-k

If Improved invisibility affected all frequencies of electromagnetic radiation and not just light and heat then the users comm links and other wireless gear would probably cease to work.

MUAHAHAHAHA....i like this one. ^^ Besides: invisibility only causes a -6 on the perception- and shooting roll. At least perception dice-pools are usually very high, so it is not so much of a game breaker as it is sometimes discussed. But i admit, it is very good on grunts etc.

@Machiavelli
Only if you know where the target is/can pinpoint his location.
It is not like, there is an invisible enemy on this football field.
"No problem I shoot him with intuition and a minus 6 dicepool modifiert...!

Listen, I understand you have a nice brain and you want to use it, but if you do that, it all starts to come apart. If Improved Invisibility actually warps all light around [or passes all light through] the target, how can the target see anything? That's why Invisibility [as a mind-affecting mana spell] makes sense, and Improved Invisibility [as a physical spell] doesn't, and I think probably never has.

And don't forget:
If invisibility makes infra dead(warmth) go around you, you start to freeze.