that's true but you're still limited to two points of armor and a gismo. I'm not saying that +2/2 armor stackable with worn and an orientation system isn't super cool especially since you already spent 5BP (out of 35) for restricted gear anyhow you might as well pump the availability up to 20. It's smarter than trying to build a cyber arm for your ork.

If I seem bitter, I am.

Trying to build a character concept with one or two limbs is work intensive and usually heartbreaking. I don't try anymore. I only post to encourage GM's to be liberal when a player shows up with a cool chrome boy concept.

But the stats are easier to achieve since the components require less miniaturization (manufacture is what drives the price, not materials), hence it would be conceivable to make a STR 8 troll-sized arm at the same price as a human arm with STR 3.
As an additional in-universe reason, the average troll has a lower income and is far more likely to have a "physical" job than the norm. Which means there is a significant market for affordable body augmentation in XXL, and that argument is far more significant to the corps than "ew, trogs are gross".

Again, the avail is realistic: there are fewer trolls, and their 'average' arms are significantly stronger (etc.) than human 'above-average' ones. Materials science doesn't care about your relative strength.

I did mention that above, Sengir. I'm not convinced, but it's not impossible. I also said that I'd prefer they got more mod slots, so that extra space *is* going somewhere. I certainly never said anyone was motivated by "gross". I also agree that none of this (none of SR4 at all, in fact) takes the possible craziness of market capitalism into account. Because of that, we can't either. After all, a company could do *anything*: sell at a loss, raise prices to imply quality, subsidize troll items for any number of social-engineering reasons, etc. We can't begin to guess, and any hypothesis can be supported equally.

Building a good cyberlimb character isn't intuitive in SR, but SR4A is the first edition where cyberlimbs weren't a white elephant. The problem with using them is that cyberlimbs aren't good at making an already good combat character better besides cyberlimb armor stacking. However, cyberlimbs shine at making a poor to average combat character to a good combat character. This makes cyberlimbs a good deal for riggers, faces, hackers, and others who need a cheap way to be effective at combat.

Some examples of cyberlimb usage can be found in Umaro's archetypes. Cyberarm users he created include the Negotiator, the Ronin, the Mercenary Rigger, the Generalist, and the Combat Hacker. If you want a full replacement build, you can look at the Bad Enough Trog. There's also an augmented mage and mystic adept that use cyberlimbs, the Burnout Combat Mage and the Transhuman Mystic.

I love to get cyberlegs, jumping jacks, and various other Capacity goodies.

Where did I say anything to the contrary? My point was that a STR 8 limb for a troll can be built cheaper than a STR 8 limb for a human, since the troll limb allows for bigger actuators and everything.

Oh yes, it would also eat some more material, but that does not matter since easier manufacturing outweighs more material by a huge margin. The big dream of the aerospace industry is being able to lathe a complete airframe from a block of Aluminum, because the price of a plane-sized block of Al is nothing compared to what they would save if they would no longer need to do a gazillion rivets.

No, I was agreeing with you. We have to make some assumptions, though, and I'm not sure to what extent it's true that "a STR 8 limb for a troll can be built cheaper than a STR 8 limb for a human". It all depends. The troll limb also has to still be as durable and tough as the human one, so they can't skimp too much.

It is actually easier to make a big thing as durable as a small thing with the same capabilities

I don't know that's always the case, depend on what 'easier' means. A 10mm sphere with a 3mm shell is a lot more durable than a 1m sphere with a 3mm shell, for example. I was saying that a troll cyberlimb presumably uses more (even more than the increasing volume:area ratio) of the same materials to be equally durable… it's just bigger. I could be wrong, so that's fine; the main idea is that there are many variables in play, so it's not as easy as just saying, 'troll limbs should be stronger for free'.

I do think bigger arms could have more capacity, that would be fair and reasonable, if a slight complication of the rules. I don't think torso or skull should have more in comparison to limbs, but I'd be okay with 'armor-only cap' for them. I feel like the 'customize' rules already allow strong individuals to get strong arms without wasting slots, but the point of limbs shouldn't be to let Str1 Bod1 people get huge stats for free, nor for corps to be 'fair' to trolls.

I think the slots for synthetic limbs make not much sense - i can fit an SMG into my natural arm, but not into a mechanical one with some coating?

Trolls getting a break on cyberlimbs sounds nice. What would stop a human from getting a troll cyberlimb? They have more reach, better strength and body, and are comparably priced? That's inviting munchkins.

Other than the fact that it'd be dragging behind them everywhere they tried to walk? Would seriously overbalance them and be next to impossible to control? And the fact that I, as the GM, would have it invaded by an AI who would then strangle them with their own arm, rip itself free from the body, and then go on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge?

...and would require extensive modifications to the rest of ytour body to be able to utilize that extra rech and sttrength (or a troll-sized cybertorso, which would require troll-sized legs...)

Or you could just get used to walking like a gorilla.






-k

There was a fluff blurb back in one of the old cybertech books (I forget which one) which went on about what it takes to make a cyberlimb better. It talked about how you can't just make a limb stronger, because the added weight of the more powerful servos slows the limb down, so you have to upgrade it to make it quicker, which adds weight, which means you need more upgrades, etc etc etc... Making a troll arm, to be as powerful as it is, likely requires heavy grade items, while still allowing for expansion. A str 8 human is nearly maxed out. The arm doesn't need to be ready for much in the way of future upgrades because it's pretty much as good as it's gonna get. A str 8 troll arm on the other hand, needs to be able to support the structure, weight and capabilities of significant future upgrades (all the way up to 15 strength, which is almost double the max of the human). That takes a lot of extra structure.

Not to mention that, as others have pointed out, items that are produced less cost more, because you lose out on the benefits of mass manufacturing. So likely the costs balance out.

Or it could be as simple as "The devs didn't want to have to come up with individual costs for every piece of gear for every metatype ever." I know I'd not put that kind of work into it. It's too much work for too little return. What does it add to the game, really?

That would be awesome, KarmaInferno.

Human in a troll body. Now that would be an interesting character concept if you could shoehorn it into the existing rules.

In theory the cost of custom cyberlimbs already accounts for losing out on mass manufacturing benifits. As the grade of cyber advances from Alpha to Delta it's also assumed to be less mass produced.

Saying that a troll's custom made beta grade arm with body 7 and strength 7 is exactly as labor/resource intensive to make as a human arm with the exact same stats makes sense for the game but little else.

Once you've eliminated the special unique snowflake cost most other factors IMO lean towards troll cyber limbs being cheaper.

Miniaturization. Given the same performance profile you usually pay more for smaller electronic and mechanical devices then bigger ones.

Materials. In precision manufactured goods the cost of material in a finished product is negligible in comparison to the labor and technical know how that goes into it. One of the reasons why my iPad cost as much as a new mountain bike.

I don't think this is what we're saying, though. For one thing, that limb for the human is beyond the limits of Customized, right?

I would be very carefull with bigger = cheaper. This might be true for some cases but not in all.
Actually it is only true for electronic devices.
Would you think a big car is cheaper than a small car? Even if they have the same engine?

In any case, what we're talking about is giving trolls, orks, etc. free points. Now, we *could* say that the weaker limb models for them simply don't exist on the market, but personally I'd rather have more choice.

It's probably marketing, anyway. If the big strong troll arm cost the same as the human one, the consumer would balk; the human would think he was getting screwed, and the troll would think he was getting something cheap.

Depends

Sports car with a V-6 verses family sedan with the same engine. Yes in that case I'd expect to pay more for the smaller car. Of course even with the same engine the two vehicles will have profoundly different performance so its not exactly a valid comparison.

Small SUV v mid sized SUV. No you'd pay more for the larger SUV. Of course in SUVs size is a feature. Mid-sized versions actually outsell smaller models. Also small SUV's usually have smaller engines so you'd actually have to pay a premium to get the engine the same size. It wouldn't make the cost equal, but it also wouldn't make the performance equal either.

Really cyberware shouldn't be compared to something like a vehicle because both price and size are more dependent on role than each other.

I would compare cyberware to products meant to be held, carried or moved around regularly. Camping equipment, personal electronics, power tools. Also I would compare between brands rather than two models from the same brand. So for instance I would ask. Given two electric drills with identical features (equally powerful, versatile, and durable) wouldn't you expect the smaller lighter one to cost more?

Well humans can have a natural bod or strength max of 7 with a purchased advantage. Your right it's not possible by the rules for a PC to have both though.

I feel like it's a stupid question, but would anyone be satisfied by tweaking the Customize costs? If 1500¥/point is excessive, is there a number that would be more acceptable, while still charging something for something? (This is effectively the same as SR3, where dwarf, etc. got stronger limbs by default.) This solution would also let elves get their Agi cheaper, which seems fair.

I forget what any of this had to do with the OP.

The biggest problem (for me) is the aviability for a troll sized custom limb - you just cant buy one at chargen. One fix could be that the aviability only rises after the custom stat is higher then the average for the metatype (e.g. a troll STR7 BOD7 cyberarm would have the same aviability as a human R3 Cyberarm).

Hm. That does sound like an issue, though I still think the rarity/etc. are realistic. As a purely 'don't screw over the player' concern, I do understand. Does the same thing happen to humans with high natural attribs?

Well, you can enhance your stats by 8 Points and hit the AV12 cap - a human could get a 6/6/5 limb with AV12, which is nearly top of the line. An ork is screwed by the aviability limit, a troll even more.

Cool. Hm. Given that he has to have that stat naturally, there's not much potential for abuse, yes. *shrug* Your solution seems simple enough.

This argument about cyberlimbs came up in my game. One of my players had played Deus Ex: Human Revolution, and was kind of enthused by the Jensen Look, but he really didn't like the thought of paying out the ass to get his Strength ratings back to where they were.

I agreed with him.


My basic way of looking at it is that cyberlimbs default to your natural stats, because nearly all of them are actually identical in terms of their performance - it's the limitations of your meat that are holding your chrome back, not the other way 'round. If your natural strength is 4, then it can be tuned up to 4 and installed properly - if your natural strength is only 2, however, then it would damn-near rip itself off of your shoulders. If you want to upgrade the arm to do Str 4, it's going to need extra anchoring and reinforcing and calibration and so forth and so on, and that will be what costs you money.

If we assume that Essence (in regards to Cyberlimbs) are the same as your Flesh then we have the following.

Head: 1
Arms: 2
Legs: 2
Torso: 1

6 Points of Flesh to represent all limbs. Torso and Skull are defined as "Shells" and dont replace your torso or head with cybernetic internal organs and cybernetic brains, they merely replace the outer layer which is ribcage and muscle or Neck/head muscles and bone. Arms and legs are literally lobbed off and discarded, replaced completely. This should make the head and torso take LESS essence, not more total.

Head: 0,5 Essence
Torso: 0,5 Essence
Limbs: 1 Essence

Not to mention the silly availability of the skull since all cyberware is defined as off the shelf cheap construction. I might up the availability a bit if you want tailored (Alpha).

And the Str 8 limb for the Dwarf?

It can make actual sense or it can make game sense.
We can't really have it both ways.

As to customized limbs being fitted to an individual, that's not really what that's about.
Think about it like a custom-built computer. You can decide the size/speed of the RAM or how many DIMMs will be used, but you're not getting a unique product. You're only buying a product, tailored to your specifications, made with higher-end components for which an average user would have little need. A surgeon might need a replacement hand capable of extremely fine movement, but a guy who works in a meat processing plant would not.

If your Essence-limb hypothesis makes predictions that don't match the game reality, that means your assumption is wrong.

I've never understood why people think the torso replaces the ribcage; is there any book mention of that someone can show me? To me, 'shell' means it's added on. I could see removing the skin, which is traumatic enough.

I'll have a look and see - one reason would be that there's just no point of having a ribcage if you have a cyber shell for it...another would be that bone lacing doesn't stack with a cybertorso, indicating that the bones are gone (at least it didn't stack in SR3, not sure how SR4 does that)

I'm not aware that bone lacing is incompatible with any cyberware; limbs don't reduce it, etc., as they did in SR3.

Even so, it'd be possible to have the cybertorso simply 'override' the still-present ribs, WRT damage.

Quick check, and it seems you are right. You can have cyberarms, cyberlegs, cybertorso and cyberskull and still benefit from Bone Density Augmentation lvl 4, apparently

Yep. SR4: simplify, simplify.

There's not a lot of sense in the skull costing a lot of essence, but the torso likely requires significant neurological interfacing to make it function correctly, and that interface, that massive unnatural and new way of doing things is what can account for the larger essence cost. That's what I'd think anyway.

Well...

There'd probably have to be a whole slew of connections and interfacing for a skull to work properly as well, unless you keep your own lips, eyelids, etc.

Unless they replace the entire spine and several important connection with the brain we can assume that replacement with cyberskull and torso follow the same logic as limbs.

1: Bone and muscle tissue is removed and replaced with synthetic materials
2: The Spine is encased in a thin protective sheat (as it is not replaced).
3: Artificial muscles and carbon fiber "skeleton" is replacing your entire ribcage and muscles

If we go full "borg" how well does SR4 medicine functions in being able to completely remove the brain and spine from the body in order to replace an entire spine? I'm more inclined to believe that it would be easier to protect the spine. This creates even more question if someone gets a cybertorso but keeps a normal head and limbs.

I see no reason why bone and muscle would be replaced, especially for the torso. These are totally unlike limbs.

Essence costs are based mostly on game balance, with vague handwaving toward 'invasiveness' or 'holistic' or 'deviation from natural'.

Part of the essence cost is supposed to represent the body's integrety vis a vis the immune system.
Completely removing and replacing systems like the sinus which interact with the blood-brain barrier and cranial nerves which hook up to some really sensitive places all throughout the brain and brain stem would be pretty serious.

Then again, installing a math processor into your grey matter is no less effed up and invasive.

Losing skin is a major thing though. It's got a lot of barriers to keep bacteria and such out.

Alright, digging through some old books:

Looking at the art (always dubious, I know) for cyberskull/cybertorso in the old Cybertechnology book, the torso clearly shows that all the muscles are artificial and it looks like most of the bones are gone. The skull is only partially replaced by synthetic parts. But, like all SR art, this means nothing. In the text there is nothing that suggests what is replaced and not. So, moving forward to Man & Machine: Cyberware, pg. 28:

Cyberskull
"A cyberskull uses a plasteel framework to protect against fatal head shots and other brain damage. The synthetic version requires replacing some parts of the skull and reinforcing others. The obvious model involves removing the skin and hair and constructing a protective structure around the skull."

Cybertorso
"Like the cyberskull, the cybertorso is a protective covering that surrounds the chest and abdomen. Ribs and muscles are reinforced or replaced, and the entire section of the body is layered with a shell."

So, there we have the most detailed descriptions of the cyberskull and cybertorso available in the history of SR rules.

Cool, thanks for the book-work. I'd just never actually seen it written. Assuming nothing's changed across editions, the cyberskull is at most partially replacing bone (mostly a shell). The torso is reinforcing *or* replacing bone and muscle (mostly a shell).

So, none of that would imply Capacity, except possibly the thin area of the shell itself (as we discussed earlier); this area is small and best suited to armor specifically.

No problem. I knew I had read something somewhere about replacing ribs - it's just a hassle digging out many of my older books since I have them stored out of easy reach.

There's also a section in Cybertechnology that states:

"Body plating can give you more protection if you want it. Ceramic and hybrid-polymer plating replaces the outer casing of your various cyber body parts[...]"

...indicating that armoring the torso and skull is just replacing the cyber with better materials.

And I have to say, the operation sounds horrible..

I dunno about that, snowRaven. All cyber armor uses Capacity, so whatever else it's doing, it's replacing the shell with *thicker* materials.

Yeah, it stills takes capacity under both rulesets - I wasn't trying to imply that it wouldn't. Just that by the original rules, armor in the case of torsos etc is replacing the original casing, rather than adding to it. "Nothing to see here but fluff, move along citizen."

Another thing to bear in mind with cyber-torsos is that its not just the ribs, it's the pelvis, shoulderblades, etc when it comes to bones to be replaced/augmented. Everything from where the shoulders connect to the neck down is part of the 'torso', though we often think of torsos as being basically from the hips up.

Replacing/augmenting the vertebrae of the spine makes sense as well (and would be a big chunk of just how invasive and difficult an augmentation it would be), but the spinal cord itself would be untouched (that's the realm of the reflex technologies) save for taking care to weave it back into a 'natural' position in/around the new spinal bones/muscle tissue.

Presumably, the tissue and bones from the neck up is covered by the cyber-skull. Since the head is rarely involved in athletic activities in any meaningful way (other than being the target of an attack), the concerns one would have for proper anchoring and material strength when it comes to, say, lifting heavy things with just a super-strength cyber-arm attached to a meat shoulder, wouldn't apply very often. I personally only factor it into the whole-body Body tests when averaging is required (which includes all damage resistance tests), not so much strength or agility tests (barring unusual circumstances).

The whole 'shell' terminology is a bit vague, honestly. Either it can mean layering cyber over your natural body (which is bizarre) or it can mean replacing your non-organ (not including skin/muscle/bone as 'organs' here) tissue and bone, which is somewhat less bizarre but a lot more radical, obviously. Not quite as radical as lopping something off and replacing the entire limb, but that's only because we don't have any vital organs in our arms or legs, just muscle tissue, bone, and various other connective/blood supply/etc bits. Plus, of course, if it was just a shell, synthetic cyber-torsos or skulls wouldn't have ANY capacity, because they'd be trying to look as naturally human-sized and proportioned as your natural bits did. And since there's no note like 'synthetic cyber-torsos cannot fit an internal air tank or other such large cyberwear', I'm assuming that's not the case.

Of course, your miles may vary. And trying to make this stuff make COMPLETE physiological sense is kind of an exercise in futility. I've just thought about this stuff too much.

Seems they really nerfed the Skull in 4th eh? O.o
Was there no room to include:"negates called shot damage bonus"?

OK, cybernetics from the company that brought you Nerf really scares me.