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Kolinho
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 1 2012, 05:55 AM) *
Um, I can't find anything like that in my rulebook. The descriptions for Full-Auto's various options make no mention of it, and refer to various "DV Modifiers", which would imply that they would count towards the "modified DV". You are correct about Burst-Fire mode, though, which explicitly states that Narrow Bursts increase the DV by +2, but it doesn't count when comparing the DV to the armor rating. But none of the Full-Auto options say that, and the descriptions for the Immunity and Hardened Armor Critter Powers don't mention it either.


Anyway, I've been meaning to return to this thread sooner to update everyone on the game. We had our first session after the "debacle" last night. It was a lot more "talky" than I had planned, but I think it went well and one of the players (who, oddly enough, was fairly quiet/unengaged) texted me after the game to say how awesome the roleplaying was. I've never been texted about the quality of one of my games before, and I've been GMing since college.


So anyway, I went with my previous plan of introducing the players to a Knight-Errant Detective/Mage who is hunting the child-eating Free Spirit. I chose not to have them arrested/humiliated first, because I hate that kind of contrivance as a player, so I don't want to use it as a GM. I'm fine with capture as an alternative to killing in a combat where the PCs have lost and it makes sense not to kill them, but not here. I'll freely admit that my style may seem a bit "soft" to some people here, but ultimately I find that I feel better about my games overall when I'm not fighting my players. I want to challenge them, hurt them, scare them, but overall I want them to have a good time.


Back to the matter at hand, I should probably introduce the cast before I explain what went down:

  1. "Machine-Gun" Maccabee, an Ork with some really expensive cyberlegs, complete with foot anchors, and some martial arts expertise (that weird gladiator one from Aztlan). As the name implies, he has a machinegun.
  2. Mr. Nobody, an Ork "vat job" with mostly bioware. A former bodyguard from L.A. whose last client perished during one of his off-shifts, he came to Seattle for a fresh start. He is kind of a generalist, and the closest thing they have to a face. Also does some sniping.
  3. Smith, a Dwarf rigger/outdoorsman.
  4. They were joined mid-way through this game by a player who had left the group due to scheduling problems; he came with his old rigger, X, but will likely be playing a different character in the future, as they already have a guy with a van. X's player is new to Shadowrun.


So Maccabee's hacker contact calls to warn him that someone has been asking about him on the down-low, and spreading around a photograph of Maccabee hanging out of a van firing a machinegun (it's from the dashcan of one of the cop cars). The guy isn't being subtle, and has left a contact number for anyone with info on the guy in the picture to call. Maccabee is intrigued, but has security concerns; I explain that he would probably think a disposable commlink would be a good first step (he'd since hung up from the call with the hacker, so she couldn't advise him further, and he's trying to keep her out of trouble).

So, he's got a custom lifestyle that I helped him put together: it's basically a flophouse run by a family of orks, some of whom sell stuff and/or operate a small bar on the ground floor. He asks one of them about getting his hands on a disposable commlink, but they were fresh out. They offer to grab one for him (for a price), but he decides to hoof it to the Crime Mall (he's in Puyallup). On the way over, he's jumped by four guys who recognize him from the photo that is floating around and decide to collect on what they assume is a bounty. He surprised me by not immediately spocking them; instead he used his foot anchors to enhance his vertical leap and jump up to a second-story window nearby (he got up about 4 meters; this seemed reasonable for getting his hand on a window ledge to pull himself up). They fired on him from below, but he took a full dodge and easily weathered the volley.

Around this time, X's player showed up. Eager to throw him into the game quickly, and remembering that X also lived in Puyallup, I had him drive by around this time. X actually has never met Maccabee, but he was in a runner group with Mr. Nobody, and was eager to link up with him again. He calls Nobody and explains this crazy thing he just saw (armored ork leaping up into a second-story window, while under fire) and Nobody puts two and two together, calls Maccabee to confirm, and asks X to provide a getaway.

Thus, the group was reunited. They eventually get their commlink and call the number, but they have Smith do the calling. This is an annoying thing they do: Smith's player is often rather quiet during the game, so I appreciate them getting him involved, but trying to roleplay a conversation with him while two other people tell him what to say (in their defense, he's awfully indecisive without advice) is super annoying. Anyway, the Detective asks them to meet him at a bar downtown that I make clear to them (two of them live in Downtown, and would likely know either from experience or looking on a map) that the bar is possibly a cop bar. They smell a trap, but are also intrigued, so they go, but decide to disguise Mr. Nobody and send him into the bar with X to broker communication remotely with Maccabee, who will be waiting in the van with Smith.

The detective was not having any of this nonsense. I didn't bother having him pierce the disguise, but he knows exactly who he's looking for, and has had enough of opportunists claiming to "know a guy". He demands to see Maccabee in person, even as Nobody is relaying their conversation to Maccabee remotely. The detective points out that wireless communication is fairly easy to intercept ("are you even a hacker, son? do you even know one? anyone in this room could have been listening this whole time..."). In fact, the detective had a hacker doing exactly that (for tracing purposes) the entire time they were in the bar; as they have no hacker backing them up, I didn't bother having them roll anything to notice.

Maccabee comes in, and tries to send X back to the van, but X sticks around and ends up learning exactly what kind of trouble these guys are in, and what they helped someone do. I played the detective cool, not rising to any of the jibes he was getting from Maccabee, who was still full of swagger and who did not appreciate what he saw as blackmail. The detective explains that he has Maccabee and his accomplices dead to rights, with plenty of photos and a "traitor" willing to tie them directly to the kidnapping. He then explains that he couldn't care less about arresting them now, because they're the closest he's ever gotten to the monster that is eating these children. He wants the monster so badly that he'd gladly make a deal with "garbage" like them to do it. He has some pleasantly intense staredowns with Maccabee, gives the runners a cheap commlink to stay in contact, and tells them that he'll be in touch when he gets his next lead; the "thing" will likely be inactive until the next New Moon grows closer.

He also tells them to feel free to skip town if they want; he has no doubt of his ability to track them if necessary (I suppose enough disguise could work, but knowing them they'd reach out to a contact sooner or later and he'd have them then; alternatively, I don't think it'd be hard at all for a team with no magic support to be tracked by magic detective).


Shortly after, Smith's smuggler contact calls him with a follow-up job from the "milk run" they did for him in exchange for an escape route during their disastrous kidnapping job. This job is longer, and doesn't pay in advance; they'll be paid for each delivery as it happens, and they'll be driving long-distance with as-yet unidentified contraband (they know it's not a person, isn't toxic to them, but is "something they shouldn't let near fire, and shouldn't let the cops see"). Four stops. The road trip begins next session.


Nice. Real nice. I love the idea of slipping mini-runs in the middle of the main story. Nice NPC play too, and I like how you got the new player in. A lot of nice tips in here that I will happily yoink

biggrin.gif
Irion
QUOTE
Full-Auto bursts should work, and combined with the right ammo I've seen street sams do semi-decent damage to Spirits before. Not *great*, mind you....it's a pain in the ass, but it's a shortcut to a tough fight if you have players with optimized builds.

DON'T. If you take this interpretation to the rules for immunity to normal weapons they ARE IMMUNE. They would compare to the base DV of any attack. NO Net-hits and NO AP.

There is a reason why such RAW-Rulings are not applyed. If you interpret every rule like this, the game will change... much.
JonathanC
QUOTE (Irion @ Mar 1 2012, 04:46 AM) *
DON'T. If you take this interpretation to the rules for immunity to normal weapons they ARE IMMUNE. They would compare to the base DV of any attack. NO Net-hits and NO AP.

There is a reason why such RAW-Rulings are not applyed. If you interpret every rule like this, the game will change... much.

I'm not sure I understand. According to SR4A, p.295:

Immunity
"The critter gains an "Armor Rating" equal to twice its magic against the damage. This Immunity Armor is treated as "hardened" protection (see Hardened Armor), meaning that if the Damage Value does not exceed the armor, then the attack automatically does no damage"

Hardened Armor
"If the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration), then it bounces harmlessly off the critter..."

The rules say nothing about base DV; both net-hits and AP apply. As near as I can tell, unless Brainpiercing7.62mm's interpretation is correct (and the DV bonus from full-auto doesn't apply), a spirit is absolutely killable (or at least, defeatable) with an Ingram White Knight, assuming you've got enough Recoil Compensation to keep your dice pool high.
Irion
@JonathanC
Does it say AP applys (In the description of immunity)? Does it say that Net-Hits apply? (I have to look it up, but the DV of an attack with net hits is called modified DV)

If you go totally RAW neither of those applys. (At least AP is OUT)
And while it is kind of logical, it makes Spirits much, much better.

Thats why you should be very carefull with only what is said, does apply. A lot of stuff goes without saying so and just by implication.
(Actually, If my mind does not play tricks on me) hardend protection is never said in the rules for Hardened Armor)
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 1 2012, 05:51 PM) *
I'm not sure I understand. According to SR4A, p.295:

Immunity
"The critter gains an "Armor Rating" equal to twice its magic against the damage. This Immunity Armor is treated as "hardened" protection (see Hardened Armor), meaning that if the Damage Value does not exceed the armor, then the attack automatically does no damage"

Hardened Armor
"If the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration), then it bounces harmlessly off the critter..."

The rules say nothing about base DV; both net-hits and AP apply. As near as I can tell, unless Brainpiercing7.62mm's interpretation is correct (and the DV bonus from full-auto doesn't apply), a spirit is absolutely killable (or at least, defeatable) with an Ingram White Knight, assuming you've got enough Recoil Compensation to keep your dice pool high.


The only thing I'm saying is that narrow burst DV bonus does not apply vs the armour penetration check. This includes conversion to stun damage, and damaging both vehicles and hardened armour.

The modified DV includes net hits, and AP always modifies the armour value to compare that with, also hardened. That's why S&S is so good vs spirits.

If you let narrow burst bonus DV count for the armour penetration check, your game just got THAT much deadlier. Also, now spririts are really shitty, because it's trivial to get a DV of 12 with a narrow burst. You only need to hit, at this point.

I'll happily continue on with my current interpretation, though, that narrow burst DV does not modify the modified DV which is used to check penetration. In any case, a full wide burst from a vehicle (or even just a regular wide burst from a sammy) with some good DP will usually also hurt a spirit.
JonathanC
QUOTE (Irion @ Mar 1 2012, 08:57 AM) *
@JonathanC
Does it say AP applys (In the description of immunity)? Does it say that Net-Hits apply? (I have to look it up, but the DV of an attack with net hits is called modified DV)

If you go totally RAW neither of those applys. (At least AP is OUT)
And while it is kind of logical, it makes Spirits much, much better.

Thats why you should be very carefull with only what is said, does apply. A lot of stuff goes without saying so and just by implication.
(Actually, If my mind does not play tricks on me) hardend protection is never said in the rules for Hardened Armor)

Immunity says that it works like Hardened Armor; Hardened Armor says that modified DV applies; it's pretty straightforward. According to RAW, both apply, unless you can find a rule that contradicts the definitions of the Immunity and Hardened Armor critter powers.

QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Mar 1 2012, 09:11 AM) *
The only thing I'm saying is that narrow burst DV bonus does not apply vs the armour penetration check. This includes conversion to stun damage, and damaging both vehicles and hardened armour.

The modified DV includes net hits, and AP always modifies the armour value to compare that with, also hardened. That's why S&S is so good vs spirits.

If you let narrow burst bonus DV count for the armour penetration check, your game just got THAT much deadlier. Also, now spririts are really shitty, because it's trivial to get a DV of 12 with a narrow burst. You only need to hit, at this point.

I'll happily continue on with my current interpretation, though, that narrow burst DV does not modify the modified DV which is used to check penetration. In any case, a full wide burst from a vehicle (or even just a regular wide burst from a sammy) with some good DP will usually also hurt a spirit.

This makes sense as a House Rule, especially if you want to "protect" Spirits as a weapon. IMO, going by the RAW in this case almost provides a reasonable check on the power of Mages; they can't just summon a Force 8 Spirit and roll over an entire city. Even without rival mages, a tac team dropping full-auto on the spirit will whittle it down, if it remains materialized.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
So, JonathanC, are you really trying to argue that a Fully Automatic Assault Rifle can be used to whittle down an M1-Abrahms MBT (or Shadowrun Equivalent) because you believe that the Full Auto rules allow such silliness? Truly? Even though the rounds from such a weapon CANNOT EVEN PUT A DENT in the armor, let alone breach it? All because you can us Full Auto against it?

Wow.......
JonathanC
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 1 2012, 01:46 PM) *
So, JonathanC, are you really trying to argue that a Fully Automatic Assault Rifle can be used to whittle down an M1-Abrahms MBT (or Shadowrun Equivalent) because you believe that the Full Auto rules allow such silliness? Truly? Even though the rounds from such a weapon CANNOT EVEN PUT A DENT in the armor, let alone breach it? All because you can us Full Auto against it?

Wow.......

Hmm....it does seem more problematic when you put it that way. It'd be nice to get an official ruling on this.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 1 2012, 03:11 PM) *
Hmm....it does seem more problematic when you put it that way. It'd be nice to get an official ruling on this.


Well, the official ruling has already been presented to you. Narrow bursts, of any stripe, do not count towards the DV calculation of whether or not the Hardened armor is penetrated. Poor choice of how to word it in the text, but there it is.
thorya
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 1 2012, 04:46 PM) *
So, JonathanC, are you really trying to argue that a Fully Automatic Assault Rifle can be used to whittle down an M1-Abrahms MBT (or Shadowrun Equivalent) because you believe that the Full Auto rules allow such silliness? Truly? Even though the rounds from such a weapon CANNOT EVEN PUT A DENT in the armor, let alone breach it? All because you can us Full Auto against it?

Wow.......


To be fair, depending on the ammo it does make a dent. Just really small ones. I mean a 7.62x51mm armor piercing round will make it almost half an inch through the several inch thick armor of an Abrahms. So steel core assault rifle ammo, should be able to get maybe 1/4 an inch if we're generous. I don't know the actual thickness, but seem to recall that at it's thinness it's more than 4 inches. So if you manage to stack all of your shots on top of each other in the exact same place that's at least 16 shots to get through. So if we're really generous that's just two passes of perfectly placed full auto shots to get through the tank. And that's not even using explosive ammo. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (thorya @ Mar 1 2012, 03:28 PM) *
To be fair, depending on the ammo it does make a dent. Just really small ones. I mean a 7.62x51mm armor piercing round will make it almost half an inch through the several inch thick armor of an Abrahms. So steel core assault rifle ammo, should be able to get maybe 1/4 an inch if we're generous. I don't know the actual thickness, but seem to recall that at it's thinness it's more than 4 inches. So if you manage to stack all of your shots on top of each other in the exact same place that's at least 16 shots to get through. So if we're really generous that's just two passes of perfectly placed full auto shots to get through the tank. And that's not even using explosive ammo. smile.gif


Which is completely ludicrous. Just Sayin' smile.gif
snowRaven
QUOTE (thorya @ Mar 1 2012, 11:28 PM) *
To be fair, depending on the ammo it does make a dent. Just really small ones. I mean a 7.62x51mm armor piercing round will make it almost half an inch through the several inch thick armor of an Abrahms. So steel core assault rifle ammo, should be able to get maybe 1/4 an inch if we're generous. I don't know the actual thickness, but seem to recall that at it's thinness it's more than 4 inches. So if you manage to stack all of your shots on top of each other in the exact same place that's at least 16 shots to get through. So if we're really generous that's just two passes of perfectly placed full auto shots to get through the tank. And that's not even using explosive ammo. smile.gif


Except that every bullet you shoot at that same place also has to penetrate through the bullet in front of it, adding to the armor...
kzt
QUOTE (thorya @ Mar 1 2012, 03:28 PM) *
To be fair, depending on the ammo it does make a dent. Just really small ones. I mean a 7.62x51mm armor piercing round will make it almost half an inch through the several inch thick armor of an Abrahms. So steel core assault rifle ammo, should be able to get maybe 1/4 an inch if we're generous.

No, actually, you'll get shallow craters at best. Massively thick armor doesn't react even close to the same as thin armor. You don't get the flexing and similar causes of failure.
Manunancy
QUOTE (thorya @ Mar 1 2012, 11:28 PM) *
To be fair, depending on the ammo it does make a dent. Just really small ones. I mean a 7.62x51mm armor piercing round will make it almost half an inch through the several inch thick armor of an Abrahms. So steel core assault rifle ammo, should be able to get maybe 1/4 an inch if we're generous. I don't know the actual thickness, but seem to recall that at it's thinness it's more than 4 inches. So if you manage to stack all of your shots on top of each other in the exact same place that's at least 16 shots to get through. So if we're really generous that's just two passes of perfectly placed full auto shots to get through the tank. And that's not even using explosive ammo. smile.gif


When shot at the outer face-hardened outer armor of and MBT, riffle bullets don't even go half an incho into the material : they splatter on it, with barely any effect. Which is exactly the purpose of that outer facing : make sure bullets and shrapnels don't get teh slightest chance to affect the somewhat brittle layers underneath.

A tungsten-cored armor piercing bullet might fare a bit better, but regular ammo just soesn't cut the mustard here, no matter how many you can pump.
thorya
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 1 2012, 05:34 PM) *
Which is completely ludicrous. Just Sayin' smile.gif


I know. I was just trying to show how ridiculous. Notice that I made several assumptions so that it worked out to be way less shots than you would need. I think you could whittle down a tank with an assault rifle, eventually. You would just be standing in a pile of casings up to your hip by the time you were done.

And I pulled the half inch penetration number from a DOD study on penetration on thick Rolled Homogeneous Armor plating, like the Abrahm has.
JonathanC
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 1 2012, 02:19 PM) *
Well, the official ruling has already been presented to you. Narrow bursts, of any stripe, do not count towards the DV calculation of whether or not the Hardened armor is penetrated. Poor choice of how to word it in the text, but there it is.

The official ruling is that burst-fire narrow bursts do not count; by the letter of the rules, full-auto narrow bursts *do* count, unless the book has been errata'd. That's the sort of "official ruling" I was looking for. It is possible that they intended for heavily armored targets to be vulnerable to full-auto weapons, which tend to be considerably larger and more trouble to fire than small arms. Of course, Assault Rifles can Full-auto, so that puts a hole in that theory...
Chinane
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 2 2012, 12:01 AM) *
The official ruling is that burst-fire narrow bursts do not count; by the letter of the rules, full-auto narrow bursts *do* count, unless the book has been errata'd. That's the sort of "official ruling" I was looking for. It is possible that they intended for heavily armored targets to be vulnerable to full-auto weapons, which tend to be considerably larger and more trouble to fire than small arms. Of course, Assault Rifles can Full-auto, so that puts a hole in that theory...



Does it explicitely say that full auto burst does count or do you imply that because it's not stated otherwise?
JonathanC
QUOTE (Chinane @ Mar 1 2012, 03:09 PM) *
Does it explicitely say that full auto burst does count or do you imply that because it's not stated otherwise?

The default rule is that anything that raises the DV counts, unless explicitly stated otherwise (as is the case with burst fire).
KarmaInferno
Here's the thing.

Define "modified DV".

The term appears a few times in the rules, but I'm not sure the various authors who wrote them were on the same page as the what "modified DV" actually means.

I really could go for a glossary of defined terms. Just sayin. Again.



-k
Yerameyahu
The point is that it takes intentional cheesing to misread that interpretation of the rules. An obvious error in the rules is not to exploited. smile.gif Wheaton's Law.
JonathanC
I'm still not sure we can be certain of the intent of the rules. If we go with your interpretation, then you can still hurt a spirit with a machinegun....by using a wide spread and getting more net hits. How does that make more sense? You're going to penetrate the thickened armor of a Spirit/Dragon/Tank by spreading bullets all over the general area? Why does that make more sense than affecting the same target with a narrow burst?

Because no weapon has a damage cap, it's theoretically possible for any weapon to hurt anything, regardless of how ridiculous that might be.
Yerameyahu
For one thing, the wide burst effect is *massively* less than the narrow burst effect (and yes, it's an issue; oh well). But the main reason is that it's nonsense for 1-6 bullets to do one thing, and 10 bullets to do something totally different… and illogical, and overpowered. smile.gif You mentally have to go way out of your way to get this crazy interpretation. There are dozens of clearly erroneous 'rules' in the book (see the thread biggrin.gif ). *shrug*
JonathanC
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 1 2012, 08:47 PM) *
For one thing, the wide burst effect is *massively* less than the narrow burst effect (and yes, it's an issue; oh well). But the main reason is that it's nonsense for 1-6 bullets to do one thing, and 10 bullets to do something totally different… and illogical, and overpowered. smile.gif You mentally have to go way out of your way to get this crazy interpretation. There are dozens of clearly erroneous 'rules' in the book (see the thread biggrin.gif ). *shrug*

I'm just saying, even if we go by your interpretation...10 bullets is still having a huge effect compared to a simple burst, and those 10 bullets are being used in a way that makes even *less* sense to be affecting a heavily armored target. There is no way that, by RAW, this situation is going to make logical sense. At this point we're just choosing between a game where Spirits can only be effectively combatted with mages, or a world where heavy arms fire can have an effect as well. Seeing as I doubt Ares Firewatch teams are 100% mage, I'm inclined to think the latter situation has precedent in the lore. But I'm willing to be proven wrong, should there be an official errata on this.
Yerameyahu
It's about consistency and potential for abuse. Wide bursts are simply less problematic (33%, to be exact?) and therefore 'less illogical', and we *know* that 6 bullets (narrow) never counts for 'modified DV'. So, it requires a total shift in those next 4 bullets to suddenly give all 10 armor-piercing magic. Even if the wide burst issue were as big or bigger, that's not an argument (two wrongs != right, etc.). The same goes for the equivalent argument people make for S&S: 'we need S&S to beat spirits!'… except what about all those non-spirit targets that get mangled too?

What you're choosing is a world where *all* armor—personal, milspec, spirit, vehicular—can be *easily* defeated by machine pistols. Autofire is not 'heavy arms fire'. Heavy arms fire is. smile.gif HMGs, grenades, rockets, sniper rifles, assault cannons (big guns) can and do work on spirits (and personal armor, vehicle armor…). As intended.
Manunancy
QUOTE (thorya @ Mar 1 2012, 11:58 PM) *
And I pulled the half inch penetration number from a DOD study on penetration on thick Rolled Homogeneous Armor plating, like the Abrahm has.


The Abrahm definitively has not RHA armor, I'd even say that no tank more recent than the 60's uses it except as the base hull with the armor added on. It's used as a benchmark to compare various designs of armor and weapons, that's why the armor is rated as RHA equivalent. In the Abrahm's latest iteration, the turret front is rated at 800mm (three feet) to 1300mm (four feet) depending on what you're shooting at it.
NiL_FisK_Urd
I don't know what spirits you face, but a F3 spirit doesn't survive a clash with gangster w/ heavy pistols and a DP of 6. F4 spirits seldom get harmed. The Street Sam in my group laughs at F5 spirits, and F6 spirits also do not live long - with a Ruger Super Warhawk + APDS/AV ammo, you harm F6 spirits and most drones on 1 net hit. F7+ starts to get tough, F8+ is TPK.
snowRaven
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 2 2012, 12:01 AM) *
The official ruling is that burst-fire narrow bursts do not count; by the letter of the rules, full-auto narrow bursts *do* count, unless the book has been errata'd. That's the sort of "official ruling" I was looking for. It is possible that they intended for heavily armored targets to be vulnerable to full-auto weapons, which tend to be considerably larger and more trouble to fire than small arms. Of course, Assault Rifles can Full-auto, so that puts a hole in that theory...


Looking at the Ranged Combat Cheat Sheet from Runner's Toolkit, I found this:

QUOTE
17. Add your net hits to your weapon + ammo DV; this is your modified
DV. If this number is greater than the defender’s armor modified
by your weapon + ammo AP, it causes Physical damage, otherwise
it causes Stun damage.
18. If your fire mode is one of the narrow bursts, add one less than the
number of rounds in the burst to your modified DV.


That makes it clear that you compare DV to armor before adding for any narrow burst (short, and long, and full bursts).
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 2 2012, 05:45 AM) *
I'm still not sure we can be certain of the intent of the rules. If we go with your interpretation, then you can still hurt a spirit with a machinegun....by using a wide spread and getting more net hits. How does that make more sense? You're going to penetrate the thickened armor of a Spirit/Dragon/Tank by spreading bullets all over the general area? Why does that make more sense than affecting the same target with a narrow burst?

Because no weapon has a damage cap, it's theoretically possible for any weapon to hurt anything, regardless of how ridiculous that might be.

RAI is irrelevant. What you need to think about is a consistent and plausible interpretation.

Does it make sense that I can take a weapon that can fire BF and FA, and simply by setting a switch and firing more bullets, can suddenly defeat armour that was previously impenetrable?

As to the wide burst issue: YES, essentially they don't make more sense. But that, too, is irrelevant, because they consistently do the same thing: Reduce defense. Basically in SR spray&pray can end up being more accurate (by hitting more vulnerable locations, for instance), than actually aiming at those. Although, that's not strictly true, because the deadliest thing is usually still a called shot. Without RC burst fire gets about 0.33 damage per die sacrificed for wide bursts, 1 DV that does not count for penetration with narrow bursts, and 1 DV that does count for called shots.

This means that with an uncompensated weapon a called shot is always best, even in semi-auto. Let's not get into the mess of doing called shots with wide bursts smile.gif.
thorya
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Mar 2 2012, 01:45 AM) *
The Abrahm definitively has not RHA armor, I'd even say that no tank more recent than the 60's uses it except as the base hull with the armor added on. It's used as a benchmark to compare various designs of armor and weapons, that's why the armor is rated as RHA equivalent. In the Abrahm's latest iteration, the turret front is rated at 800mm (three feet) to 1300mm (four feet) depending on what you're shooting at it.


True, the Abrahm has Chobham, Depleted Uranium, and Reactive Armor on top of the RHA. I'm guessing though that you're not going to aim for the heavily armored front turret that's designed to thwart the weapons of other tanks. You're probably going to aim for places where the armor is thin or the frame underneath is exposed. If you're good enough to put every shot in the same hole, it's not unreasonable that you could aim for the thinnest part of the armor, avoiding the heavy reactive armor plates and the aftermarket depleted uranium upgrades. (Which I've been thinking about since, and it seemed really ridiculous at first, but with we don't actually know what a 20-24 dice pool means in the real world and what they're capable of, since the best shooters in the world right now are supposedly at a 12-14 max) Of course, if you're crazy enough to try it, maybe you're crazy enough to aim for the most heavily armored section of the tank. smile.gif
JonathanC
QUOTE (snowRaven @ Mar 2 2012, 02:07 AM) *
Looking at the Ranged Combat Cheat Sheet from Runner's Toolkit, I found this:



That makes it clear that you compare DV to armor before adding for any narrow burst (short, and long, and full bursts).

Ah, that does strongly imply that there was simply an omission in SR4A. Thanks, snowRaven.
snowRaven
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 2 2012, 05:22 PM) *
Ah, that does strongly imply that there was simply an omission in SR4A. Thanks, snowRaven.


No problem - was typing up all the relevant sections from SR4A and decided to check the cheat sheets on a hunch smile.gif
JonathanC
QUOTE (snowRaven @ Mar 2 2012, 09:45 AM) *
No problem - was typing up all the relevant sections from SR4A and decided to check the cheat sheets on a hunch smile.gif

I'm a little disappointed in the result (mainly because I think spirits/magic are a little too strong), but I can see how it makes full-auto against mundane targets more deadly than is probably good for game balance.



Alternate idea: Maybe I could send them on a metaplanar quest for the spirit's true name? IIRC, mundanes can enter metaplanes with help from a mage....the detective could send them on the quest, while waiting behind safely.
snowRaven
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 2 2012, 08:14 PM) *
Alternate idea: Maybe I could send them on a metaplanar quest for the spirit's true name? IIRC, mundanes can enter metaplanes with help from a mage....the detective could send them on the quest, while waiting behind safely.


Quests are fun.

Mundanes normally can't go on them though - to send them there would require the Astral Gateway power, an astral rift, or guided use of the magical compound Shade (or magic rituals at the level of great dragons and immortal elves).
JonathanC
QUOTE (snowRaven @ Mar 2 2012, 12:18 PM) *
Quests are fun.

Mundanes normally can't go on them though - to send them there would require the Astral Gateway power, an astral rift, or guided use of the magical compound Shade (or magic rituals at the level of great dragons and immortal elves).

I thought there was a way for a mage's pals to tag along and help if he goes on an astral quest for his Initiation? Failing that, it wouldn't be hard to come up with some kind of crumbling gateway/ruin for them to search for.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 2 2012, 03:34 PM) *
I thought there was a way for a mage's pals to tag along and help if he goes on an astral quest for his Initiation? Failing that, it wouldn't be hard to come up with some kind of crumbling gateway/ruin for them to search for.


There is - specifically, for a mage to project spiritual copies of his friends from himself, bringing them on Metaplanar Quests. Basically a way for the rest of the group to still have something to do when the Mage goes on a Metaplanar Quest by playing copies of their characters. But only copies: not the real ones. They don't share in any Karma reward from the quest. (On the other hand, they don't share in any danger from the quest, either. The copy can get mangled and shredded and incinerated and the original is safe, too.)

They also only get to go to near Metaplanes. Outer Planes won't have any of that crap, and they don't work. Besides, I don't think "a handful of guys I just met" are near and dear enough to a mage to qualify as people he could take on a metaplanar quest.

Also, trying to send a group of only Mundanes on a Metaplanar Quest would be... Well, it's a death sentence. Even if they got to march through a rift with a Arsenal's and SotA 2073's and War's best equipment, they wouldn't last more than twenty minutes.
JonathanC
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Mar 2 2012, 12:48 PM) *
There is - specifically, for a mage to project spiritual copies of his friends from himself, bringing them on Metaplanar Quests. Basically a way for the rest of the group to still have something to do when the Mage goes on a Metaplanar Quest by playing copies of their characters. But only copies: not the real ones. They don't share in any Karma reward from the quest. (On the other hand, they don't share in any danger from the quest, either. The copy can get mangled and shredded and incinerated and the original is safe, too.)

They also only get to go to near Metaplanes. Outer Planes won't have any of that crap, and they don't work. Besides, I don't think "a handful of guys I just met" are near and dear enough to a mage to qualify as people he could take on a metaplanar quest.

Also, trying to send a group of only Mundanes on a Metaplanar Quest would be... Well, it's a death sentence. Even if they got to march through a rift with a Arsenal's and SotA 2073's and War's best equipment, they wouldn't last more than twenty minutes.

Wouldn't the Gatekeeper guy send them to a metaplane appropriate for them? That's kind of his job. I thought the danger in visiting the Metaplanes was a bit more subtle than just "welcome to a spirit realm where everything wants to kill you". I'd certainly want it to *seem* like a death sentence, though...they're supposed to be making reparations for delivering 3 small children to a horrible death at the hands of a flesh-eating spirit. Just tossing them into a normal fight with the thing, but this time with magical back-up, seems a bit anti-climactic.
kzt
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 2 2012, 01:59 PM) *
Wouldn't the Gatekeeper guy send them to a metaplane appropriate for them? That's kind of his job. I thought the danger in visiting the Metaplanes was a bit more subtle than just "welcome to a spirit realm where everything wants to kill you". I'd certainly want it to *seem* like a death sentence, though...they're supposed to be making reparations for delivering 3 small children to a horrible death at the hands of a flesh-eating spirit. Just tossing them into a normal fight with the thing, but this time with magical back-up, seems a bit anti-climactic.

Wasn't it a fire spirit? A fire spirit seems unlikely to come from a very friendly to people metaplane.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 2 2012, 03:59 PM) *
Wouldn't the Gatekeeper guy send them to a metaplane appropriate for them? That's kind of his job. I thought the danger in visiting the Metaplanes was a bit more subtle than just "welcome to a spirit realm where everything wants to kill you". I'd certainly want it to *seem* like a death sentence, though...they're supposed to be making reparations for delivering 3 small children to a horrible death at the hands of a flesh-eating spirit. Just tossing them into a normal fight with the thing, but this time with magical back-up, seems a bit anti-climactic.


Spirits are a classification of enemy against which mundanes do exceptionally poorly. You're suggesting sending them on a trip to somewhere that literally everything is of that classification. Think about that one.
JonathanC
QUOTE (kzt @ Mar 2 2012, 02:37 PM) *
Wasn't it a fire spirit? A fire spirit seems unlikely to come from a very friendly to people metaplane.

The child-eating thing? No, no fire involved. I think thinking it was a Spirit of Man.

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Mar 2 2012, 02:40 PM) *
Spirits are a classification of enemy against which mundanes do exceptionally poorly. You're suggesting sending them on a trip to somewhere that literally everything is of that classification. Think about that one.

Hmm....I haven't decided yet if I'm going to houserule the narrow burst thing, and even if I don't it could be survivable if they:

1. Go prepared (i.e. bring the right kind of ammo)
2. Don't pick any fights, and generally keep their heads down
3. Don't run into anything too awful (i.e. F10 Great Form Spirits, etc.)

I wouldn't make a campaign out of it, but the concept has a certain Stargate-esque appeal, and while I wouldn't want to send them in with a magic NPC to do all the heavy lifting, I could totally see sending them in with some kind of guidance. Show them enough of the magic side of things to give them a good scare. I understand why you'd be reticent about it, but the game already jumped the rails from where I originally wanted it to be...I'm open to following this deviation a bit.
snowRaven
Well, there are two ways to do it:

You can send them on a quest to kill the spirit on it's home plane. This means a fight on the spirit's terms, more or less.

Second, you can send them to get the spirit's formula - but to recreate it in the real world I'm guessing they would have to have the Arcana skill...

Either way though, not everything on a metaplane is automatically as hard to kill as a spirit in the real world. Metaplanes are full of metaphor - armor, cyber, and weapons may not take the same forms, and certainly not everything they meet will have Immunity to Normal Weapons.

If you have the cash for it, the old Harlequin's back adventure contains a multi-part metaplanar quest that can serve as inspiration for how characters can change during a quest. If you choose to do a quest for them, try to make the imagery of the metaplane match the spirit. The PCs should change accordingly, even though their abilities should stay roughly the same.
Chinane
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 3 2012, 12:06 AM) *
The child-eating thing? No, no fire involved. I think thinking it was a Spirit of Man.


Hmm....I haven't decided yet if I'm going to houserule the narrow burst thing, and even if I don't it could be survivable if they:

1. Go prepared (i.e. bring the right kind of ammo)


No need to houserule actually, unless you already houseruled stick-n-shock ammo to bring it down to reasonable levels.
That ammo used according to RAW is the right kind of ammo - as long as they generate enough net hits, anyway.
JonathanC
Haha, battling the spirit on its home turf isn't what I had in mind. I guess when I said "true name", I meant to say "formula". I was in a really long Mage campaign for most of last year, I guess some of the terminology has slipped into my vocabulary.
NiL_FisK_Urd
A ruger Super Warhawk with APDS is a good Spirit killer - or a Gauss Rifle ^^
pbangarth
QUOTE (snowRaven @ Mar 2 2012, 07:24 PM) *
Either way though, not everything on a metaplane is automatically as hard to kill as a spirit in the real world. Metaplanes are full of metaphor - armor, cyber, and weapons may not take the same forms, and certainly not everything they meet will have Immunity to Normal Weapons.

For spirits, ItNW is a byproduct of either Materialization (SR4A page 296) or Possession (SM page 102) or Inhabitation (SM page 100). Why would they even have it in the astral or in the metaplanes?
Yerameyahu
Why would they even need it? There are no normal weapons on the astral or metaplanes. … Right? How could there be? smile.gif
kzt
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 3 2012, 12:33 AM) *
Why would they even need it? There are no normal weapons on the astral or metaplanes. … Right? How could there be? smile.gif

There are some Ares people who might dispute that. But then they would have to kill you. smile.gif
snowRaven
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 3 2012, 08:33 AM) *
Why would they even need it? There are no normal weapons on the astral or metaplanes. … Right? How could there be? smile.gif


While it's not under SR4 rules, there are several metaplanar entities in Harlequin's Back who possess Immunity to Normal Weapons on the metaplanes.

As for SR4:

[ Spoiler ]
Yerameyahu
But: *why* would they even need it? There are no normal weapons on the astral or metaplanes. … Right? How could there be? smile.gif

I mean, I don't care if they have that power, I just can't see how it'd matter.
snowRaven
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 3 2012, 05:40 PM) *
But: *why* would they even need it? There are no normal weapons on the astral or metaplanes. … Right? How could there be? smile.gif

I mean, I don't care if they have that power, I just can't see how it'd matter.


Of course there are. The metaplanes aren't the astral plane (and some metaplanes have astral planes of their own - see Harlequin's back for that), so any non-magical, non-astral weapon on the metaplanes would classify as 'normal' to the denizens of said metaplane. Like, for instance, the fists of a character.
Yerameyahu
Ah. Wacky. smile.gif I didn't realize that was the nature of the metaplanes. They've never come up in any game I've ever heard of.
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