QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 6 2012, 03:18 AM)
Looking through the chapter on Astral space and the Metaplanes, there isn't anything to even suggest that the metaplanes have their own separate astral space; there's just one astral, and it's between our plane and the metaplanes (sort of, I think).
I disagree - there are a number of things suggesting it (some only by omission, but still):
- The fact that people can still use astral perception (it would've said 'assensing' if it was one plane)
- The statement that they can't project because they are already outside of their body, instead of 'because there is no astral space'.
- The fact that there is no mention of spirits losing their Astral Form power, or others losing their Dual Natured power.
- The fact that there is no mention of called/summon spirits working any differently.
- The fact that there are no mentions of things like Wards working any differently on the metaplanes.
Plus, it is strongly insinuated by the fact that there are published adventures where there's clear mention of the astral on metaplanes. However, the best source is from SR2 and thus not valid besides proof of original intent, and the other is SRMs, which may not be considered 'full canon' (not sure about that one).
That said, there's also suggestions that not all metaplanes have an astral component (again, mainly
Harlequin's Back).
As for the astral and the physical - since they are linked together, and mana flows between them freely, you can't really go to one and not the other. Even if you are a purely astral form, you'll see the shadows of the physical world all around you - even if you have no astral presence, your aura is only present in the astral. There's no reason why that duality couldn't exist on the metaplanes as well, and as I've pointed out above there is evidence that it does in at least some cases.
I'll concede that it's probably best to treat a spirit as a dual being on a quest where you are trying to kill it - otherwise it can just zip away at the speed of thought, and your quest becomes impossible. However, there's nothing in the rules suggesting that this is the case - and there are things in the rules that suggest it
isn't the case.
However, even treating it as a dual being I'd say it gets the Immunity to normal weapons against whatever the PCs have that isn't weapon foci, magic or fighting with astral perception.
The thing is, since you obviously base the capabilities of the PCs on physical stats and normal rules for combat, claiming that the spirit is a purely astral form on it's metaplane (which it is by the rules unless it's using masking/possession/inhabitating) you end up with one of two situations:
1 The characters are also astral forms (though based on physical stats) and thus would use astral combat rules, limiting them to weapon foci, astral attacks and such.
2 The characters are physical forms, using normal combat rules, and the spirit would thus be beyond their grasp unless they activate astral perception.
Option 1 is contradicted by the claim that normal rules for combat are used.
Option 2 is contradicted by the insanity that arises trying to fight astral spirits as dual natured forms.
The third option would be that the spirit's astral form and the characters physical forms exist on the same plane, and in that case I'd say that any non-astral, non-magical weapons would indeed be limited by an ItNW. Whether that's an immunity inherent to the spirit or a weakness inherent to the weapons can be debated...
At the end of the day, it's clearly stated that no one really knows how the metaplanes work (or why), and I for one would say that all three options are viable. You could even shift between them during one astral quest, if you really want to screw with your players.
Going by the only applications of the rules that are present, we see the following interpretations among SR4 authors:
- A spirit will have a separate Immunity to Normal Weapons power on a metaplane.
- Spirits will have their normal powers on the metaplane, and ItNW as a function of their materialization, and I'll mention 'astral' several times.
- I'm just gonna tell you to use standard stats for spirits, mention astral a few times, but give no other suggestions.
And the older sources, SR2 authors:
- Metaplanes are screwy: some have astral space, some don't; some beings have ItNM, some don't - change skills, weapons, appearance and abilities of your PCs at your hearts desire. Go nuts.
I'll go with that last option, and at my table, the answer to all questions posed above will be: "It depends - do you feel lucky, punk?"