Let's say that I have a cyberlimb, and I decide to use some of that limb's capacity to install a commlink, as as my go-to commlink, or a backup in case of emergencies. Would I have the benefits of a Direct Neural Interface to that commlink (hotsim, mental commands, etc.), or would I need to install a Datajack as well?

Also, regular commlinks have chipjacks as one of their "freebies" (along with a music player and some other junk, IIRC)...does this make datajacks generally less necessary? Couldn't you just slot knowsofts into your commlink while wearing trodes (or, perhaps, using an implanted commlink in your cyberarm?

The reason I'm not sure is that a regular implanted commlink presumably wouldn't have all of these things - a chipjack, for example. The whole point is that it's hidden, so having weird ports in your head would defeat the purpose. But a cyberarm opens up possibilities: is there a screen on your arm? COULD there be?

You get DNI, because it's technically an Implanted Commlink.

Yes, wireless, chipjacks, and everything else makes datajacks much less necessary. Most 'softs don't even come on chips at all, but as wireless downloads (like apps)… even BTLs.

The cyberarm implanted commlink should not have functionality that the meat implanted commlink doesn't have, no.

A sensible argument; but it does mean that I'd have to shell out for an implanted datajack (which can also go into the arm) if I wanted to slot knowsofts/skillsofts and such. It's only 1 capacity, so it could be worth it.


Most people go bioware when they're building infiltrators to avoid scanners, but I was thinking of a concept that would work with cyber...you'd go through the scanner, they'd see you have a cyberarm, but impanted guns are designed to look innocuous, and who would care about computer stuff in your arm? You'd just look like an amputee ("I lost it in the war...which one? pick one")

Well, you need *some* kind of DNI for chips/(sim)softs (again, physical chips? Obsolete. ). If you're not using trodes or a jack, then implant commlink is the choice. If you have some kind of DNI already (even implant commlink), then you just need to get the soft/chip somehow connected to it: skinlink, wireless, anything.

Don't forget the the implanted Commlink does NOT include a sim module - not even a cold one. You are probably better off just buying a compartment in your cyberlimb and putting a regular commlink there.

Datajacks are largely obsolete. Trodes do the job just fine.

@Cyberware scanners: It is not clear whether they just detect a cyberlimb or a cyberlimb with spurs, a commlink, armor etc.

If it's a chip, and you have an implanted commlink, then skinlink/wireless isn't going to cut it; the chip is designed to slot into something, isn't it? You'd need either a physical commlink (which has a chip port or whatever), or a datajack.

Or you could just download your knowsofts wirelessly. The benefit of chips, though, is that you have your content in your hands, rather than existing in the Cloud.

The description of the cybergun describes a device that is designed to look normal in a cyberware scan. Adding an implanted sim module to the arm would be a minor inconvenience, at worst...I'd still say it's a valid concept. To me, it adds a little bit of visual flavor to a stock Hacker character, and adds some convenience as well.

So the commlink should show up, as it is not described as made to look normal.
4 capacity gone already. A smuggling compartment only takes up 2.
It is flavorful, but undergoing surgery to upgrade your iPhone is hardly convenient.

Implanted commlinks are described as common with "salarymen on the go", and would be unlikely to set off any alarms. In a secure area you'd likely be asked to deactivate the commlink (there's some fiction where Netcat, a Technomancer, goes into such a zone; she has to mentally suppress her biological node). I imagine you'd end up running in hidden mode and hoping that your firewall is sufficient to protect you from detection.

How secure is this smuggling compartment? If you want to shield it from wireless scans that would detect the hardware, then it's going to be similarly inaccessible to contact from your datajack or trodes. Remember that a skinlink requires touch; rattling around in a box inside an artificial arm doesn't count. The benefit of an implanted commlink is that the connection is all internal.

The surgery for implanted commlinks is done with nano-machines. A standard one is probably an outpatient procedure, like getting Laser eye surgery.
I imagine having a technician open up your cyber-arm is considerably less invasive than upgrading a standard implanted commlink. You could possibly do it yourself, which is more than you can say for the brain surgery required for a standard implanted commlink.

But, JonathanC, you can download the 'chip' into your commlink permanently (no cloud), or you can connect basically *anything* to your implanted comm via wireless/skinlink/etc.: almost any electronic device can plausibly have a chipjack. You're right: you can't slot a chip through your arm. But you'd almost never need to.

I'm not suggesting you'd even want an implant commlink, IMO. But some people do, and it's easy enough to deal with. As a practical matter, given how unimportant chipjacks are, your GM could easily allow a chipjack in your cyberarm for essentially free. Maybe in a fingertip compartment, but maybe just just on the surface anywhere. It'd be totally unremarkable.

I'd expect there is a screen built into the arm, like flipping a panel up so you could see it (like Buzz Lightyear accessing his "communicator"). Same for accessing ports for slotting chips, credsticks, and such.

The commlink would not set off alarms, but if every upgrade to a cyberlimb is detected individually, anything else that is not disguised may. Moreover the Cyberware scanner does not care about whether the cybergun is concealed. it is always threshold 1 unless the limb is of a better grade.

I was not advocating using the smuggling compartment I merely meant that it is less inconvenient than the implant, if you insist on having the commlink inside your body.

Yes, upgrading the commlink inside a cyberlimb is probably less difficult than working on one in the head, but it is still much more hassle than taking your commlink to the next radio shck and have it upgraded.

@Spellbinder: While this may be stylish, there is no reason whatsoever to include a screen. You have a DNI so you are the information directly into your brain.

The only devices that would reasonably have chipjacks would be devices for accessing data, like a commlink or a node. You couldn't downloaod the *chip* directly via a skinlink or wireless, but if the data on that chip was also somewhere on the Matrix, you could download it from there. A chip is a chip; it's not an active thing. RFID tags are wirelessly accessible, but they don't contain data. Datachips are specifically for storing data physically; you have to physically slot them into something to access the data.

So if all you had was an implanted commlink without a datajack, you'd have no way of accessing the data. Once you found some kind of data reader device that was wirelessly accessible (or compatible with a skinlink, assuming you have one) you'd be in business though.

Regarding the storage internal to the commlink, it is implied rather heavily that the reason we no longer track data sizes in SR4 is that "omnipresent wireless systems allow a...fast and always-available transfer of information..." (SR4A, p.330) This implies that if you were removed from the Cloud for some reason (Z-zone, wireless paint, faraday cage, etc.) you would lose access to that storage.

Now, living in Seattle or another sprawl, the chances of such a thing happening to most people is nil, which is why hardware data storage is so rare. But if I was a shadowrunning hacker, you'd better believe I'd have hard copies of all of my data and a way of accessing them.

No everything is WiFi capable even chips.

"To meet their stealth requirements, most of their parts are built from non-metallic compounds, while the remaining metallic parts are incorporated into the (cyber) arms structure." (SR4A, p.344)

It's going to pass a scan; that's what it's there for. If your cyberarm is jacked up beyond the normal specs (cyberlimb enhancements are restricted, for example, but customized cyberlimbs with higher ratings are fine). The scanner would detect the limb without a doubt, but cyberguns are specifically described as designed to appear integral to the limb's functions, and all other parts are non-metallic. Besides, millimeter-wave detection systems are described as scanning for energy signatures; an inactive weapon wouldn't really be distinguishable from the parts used to move the arm normally.


It doesn't really provide the utility of an implanted commlink, so I don't see how it's relevant. This is like saying that swallowinig a cellphone gives you all of the benefits of having a cellphone implanted in your brain. It simply isn't true.


I never compared implanted commlinks to regular commlinks in terms of convenience; you did. The whole point is in having a commlink that is concealed from view, easily explainable if it is detected by authorities, and difficult to become separated from (it's more likely that someone would ask you to hand over your commlink than saw off your arm).


The screen would be more for displaying information to others, I imagine. I'd probably allow it as a freebie on an Obvious cyberlimb, but it seems unlikely on a limb that is supposed to look natural at first glance.

Or, if you have cybereyes, you have a HUD. I narrate it this way for the guy who plays the hacker in my forum campaign - he has an implanted commlink, sim module and cybereyes, so he pretty much controls everything with his mind.

Cite some rules for this. The entry on Datachips says nothing about this, and it's ridiculous to assume that this would be the case for a storage device. It's just storage; it doesn't have the "brains" necessary for wireless communication. RFID chips aren't even wirelessly "accessible"; they're just passively readable. You write on them, and they display a message when read wirelessly, because that's what they're designed for.

Datachips are designed to hold data for physical access, not wireless access.

That's what I said, JonathanC: basically any device is gonna let your chip connect to your comm. Almost anything could plausibly have a chipjack.

I don't agree. The cloud is there, but data storage is also effectively infinite on a local level as well. In particular, the rules provide no evidence that it's not. If you were getting data from other places during hacks and things, you can bet the rules would've mentioned the significant implications that would have.

So. It's incredibly easy to read a chip, chips barely exist anyway, and you have infinite easy cloud and local storage. It's like you're looking for problems. If so, you could indeed add some 'gritty computing' house rules.

The only mentions of infinite data storage attribute that infinite storage to the existence of the Cloud; there is no reason to believe that local data is infinite. Very large, yes. Large enough to store all of your hacking programs and such on a datachip, for certain. Hell, even in SR3 you could store all of the programs on a deck, you just couldn't have them all loaded at once.


Also, please define these devices that could "plausibly" read a chip, that aren't a commlink or a node. Guns don't have commlinks in them unless you pay extra, so what are we talking about?

So… we agree? Local storage is functionally as much as you'd plausibly need. I don't mean literally infinite.

Pick a gadget. Camera, toaster, whatever. It doesn't matter, because you'll have *something* that can read a chip, and you'll copy it to your link.

We disagree on connectivity. There's no reason for a toaster to read chips. A camera, perhaps, but if chips are really in such rare use, why would a camera still have a chip slot?

It's enough that it could. We're talking about prices and options well below the radar for SR4's level of abstraction. That's all I'm saying: this is handwaving level stuff. Unless your GM (or you, as GM) wants to press the issue (and perhaps intentionally be mean)… it's just not an issue. Worst case, you buy some disposable commlinks.

It's not in the rules, which is kind of the point. It's below the level that the rules care about. There are little hints:That kinda thing. There's also no 'chipjack/chipreader' item you can actually buy, AFAIK?

It's not mean, it's detail. It allows for tension...it defines the differences in how technology is used in the mainstream world (where wireless is king) and in the Barrens (where spotty coverage means chips are still being used).

You realize this is a universe where even underwear has wireless connectivity, yes?



-k

Wireless, yes. Chip ports? no.

Given that even the most mundane things in SR4 have wireless connectivity, why would a data transport device NOT have the same?

I mean, even today there's flash storage key fobs with wireless USB capacity.

The general established state in SR4 is that EVERYTHING has wireless in the 2070s. Really, if chips do NOT have wireless, to be an exception to that, they would need to specifically state that they do not.


-k

Like I said: if you want tension, you can house rule these problems in. By default, they don't seem to exist. There are many things that could allow for tension, but that doesn't mean they're in the rules (e.g., equipment weights, wear and tear, etc.).

Are you talking about those fobs that you plug into a computer to give the *computer* wireless capacity? Because that wouldn't do what you're talking about here. In order for the device to be able to serve up the data wirelessly, it would need to have its own power source.

Now, I will say this: the description of datachips states that they are readable by any electronic device, so I stand corrected on that point, but the chips are described as optical memory chips; they would not be readable wirelessly. They exist precisely for situations where wireless storage/communication isn't possible.

I'm prepared to assume that both exist (dumb and smart storage chips, with batteries/solar/whatever). We probably can't say that all chips have wifi.

How about a compromise: they have RFID tags, which means they'll show up in AR? So you can detect one wirelessly, you just couldn't read the data.

That does seem likely. I think everything that exists has RFIDs.

Only by GM fiat the chips are not WiFi capable:
Unless you try to say that a data chip is neither electronic nor mechanical, you can access the storage via WiFi.

I mean USB thumb drives that, in addition to being able to plug them in normally, they can be accessed wirelessly. I know Kingston and Maxell make versions, there's probably others.

Additionally, Sandisk makes an SD card that has storage like normal, but also has WiFi capacity which can be used not only to access it, but to allow any camera it's plugged into to stream pictures and movies being taken via that WiFi.

Even with real world examples aside, chips do not HAVE to specifically say they have wireless capacity. The general rule is that EVERYTHING has wireless capacity. Even products that make no sense to have wireless.



-k

Optical data chips are neither electronic nor mechanical, for the same reason that flash memory, RAM chips and DVDs are neither eletronic nor mechanical.

Err....are you talking about this? http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-SDWSDB-000-7...d/dp/B0000C4M1V

...because that's exactly what I was referring to: it's a data chip that can also act as a wireless adapter for a PDA or similar device. You don't just approach it and read the data off it wirelessly; you plug it into a PDA that doesn't have wireless ability and presto! Now that device does have wireless capability.

Or perhaps you're thinking of the Eye-Fi, which is only available in Europe right now (from what I've heard?) That one still requires you to have the card plugged into the camera; it allows the camera to connect to wireless networks to send your photos to other devices. Again, you don't just wave the card around; it simply has a device built in that uses the host device's energy for wireless communication.

Here's the thing. In SR4, they are electronic.

They can fit a thermographic camera, low-light, Optical vision magnification, and flash protection into contact lenses, presumably with a power source to run it all. With wireless. Even RFIDs which can be pinhead sized have wifi and some have internal power.

Why is the assumption then that a device which is likely LARGER would not have wireless, and a power supply to run it?



-k

Even if they are neither electronic nor mechanical they are "accessible by any electronic device" (SR4A p. 330). Not all electronic devices have chip readers so the chip must have wireless capabilities, otherwise access would be impossible.

See, to me, this just implies that all electronic and mechanical devices have chip readers, kind of like how so many devices these days have USB connectivity.

Because it makes no sense for it to be wirelessly accessible? Even the devices you were talking about that exist now don't work the way that you were saying. Why is it so hard to believe that a data chip would require you to be able to read a data chip in order to access the data? The device would be ludicrously insecure if it was built the way that you're suggesting, as well as redundant - if you wanted to access the data wirelessly, why wouldn't you just put it in the Cloud?

The thing is there are same devices that explicitly mention readers and others that don't. Since any and all devices can access the chips it is either that all devices have readers or the chips must be able to be accessed wirelessly. Contact lenses with chip readers make no sense at all.

Contact lenses aren't electronic devices, technically. They're listed under visual enhancements, aren't they?

A contact lens with a smartlink upgrade most definitely is an electronic device. Vision magnification and enhancement most likely are achieved electronically as well.

Contact lenses in shadowrun do not "read" anything; they display data from a commlink, or send visual data to a commlink; they're passive in that sense. The idea that they would be able to access data (wirelessly or otherwise) is ridiculous.

Also, given the size of the device, they would have to be constructed of nano-scale components, which are clearly not what the language in the book was meant to refer to when they said "electronic devices".

I'm not arguing this any further. If you want to pretend that your fucking contact lenses are a commlink, do so in your own game with house rules. By RAW, that is clearly not the intent.

The real-world devices I was speaking of are pocket flash drives with wireless capacity. Battery powered, you can use them without even taking them out of your bag.

We could do this with thumb drives today. Seriously, we have that level of tech. Wi-fi circuits are the size of a stamp already. The main limitation would be battery life - you'd probably have to use button batteries, which would have to be replaced or recharged constantly. However, by the 2050s in the Shadowrun universe battery life is not an issue anymore.

From an in-game perspective:

You're an electronics manufacturer. You have the nano-scale technological prowess to put wireless capacity in damn near anything.

Why would you NOT want to sell data storage devices that can be accessed wirelessly?

Just think, a thumb drive that the consumer doesn't even have to take out of their pocket to use. That's convenient. That's sellable. With the right marketing, you can have your customers believing that the old fashioned plug-in type is downright old-fashioned.



-k

Ugh, just try to be sensical about it. How hard is that?

You are confusing "computing ability" with "wireless access ability".

Wireless ability is just a damn radio antenna.

Data is data. There's no difference between "read" or "access", at least not in Shadowrun terms. How is a video stream being sent from a camera sent to your contact lens any different than a video file streaming from a data chip?

Nobody says the contact lenses are commlinks, just that they are wireless capable devices. You don't need a full on commlink to have wireless capacity. In game terms, they are peripheral nodes - they can't be used to hack, normally*, but they can be accessed BY a commlink.

A data chip would be another peripheral node. It can share it's contents with devices that it is slaved to. Whether this is via a physical connection or a radio circuit is irrelevant.



-k

* - technically, under the Clustering rules, you can in fact turn a handful of contact lenses into an impromptu commlink. It'll be a mighty crappy one, but it will be one.

I looked up the devices you're talking about; that's not what they do. If you are talking about other devices, well....some links would be nice. On the other hand, we have all sorts of things they aren't mentioned in SR4: we can make edible meat out of raw sewage, for crissakes.



Because it costs money to manufacture, would cost money to buy, and is completely useless to anyone with wireless connectivity (cloud storage is free) AND to anyone who needs completely offline storage for security reasons (because wireless security in Shadowrun is a complete joke).


See, here's the thing: even now, thumb drives are largely being replaced by cloud storage. Nobody is marketing a wireless storage device because it fills a niche that doesn't exist. If I cared about wireless convenience, then I'd keep my data on Dropbox. If I cared about keeping my data safe, I'd want it offline.

Can a smartlink be installed in contact lenses? Yes
Is a smartlink an electronic device? Yes
Can any electronic device access the information on a datachip? Yes
Does a smartlink in a contact lens include a chip reader? Most definitely no.

Ergo the chip must have a wireless interface. No houserules here.

As to why certain information should be on a physical chip and not in remote storage, I don't know, it might simply be a holdover from previous editions or a means to restrict the amount of simultaneously available information (linked devices etc.). A lot of Matrix stuff does not make much sense when compared to real world IT.

How do you think that the contact lenses are connected to that commlink? See, I'm thinking that they do not have wires running to your commlink. This means that they have to be able to access and process data to show it, while receiving data from the outside world, converting that to commlink-readable stuff and send it. Done in real time or as fast as makes no difference.

The difference, as you apparently already understand, is that the video isn't coming from the camera directly; the camera is being accessed by the commlink, which is then pulling the data from the camera and sending it to the contact lenses.