So how is this different than a commlink wirelessly pulling data from a storage chip?

Nobody is saying that a data chip can replace a commlink, just that it can be accessed wirelessly.

I have no idea why you keep going on about needing or not needing commlinks. Nobody even mentioned that.




-k

Storage not in a cloud means that it won't get deleted if someone with admin access to the cloud wants to delete it. You control the spread of the information on the chip (i.e. it won't get copied without access to the chip, while information in a cloud has to be copied). I assume that the wireless on the chips can be turned off for security purposes, too.

This is getting stupid. A smartlink is not an electronic device. You can't just buy a smartlink and expect it to do anything. It's an enhancement to a weapon, and an enhancement to a visual device like glasses or goggles. It's a set of components, not an electronic device. Electronic Devices are the things listed in the Electronics section of the book. Data Chips and Software are listed in a separate section for a reason.

You are treating "Electronic Device" as some rigidly Defined Term.

It's not.

"Electronic Device" could just as easily be defined as anything with chips in it.



60 seconds of searching:

http://www.kingston.com/us/usb/wireless

http://www.seagate.com/www/en-us/products/...oflex-satellite



-k

How? It's a fucking optical chip, not a fucking computer. It doesn't have buttons. It's described as a finger-sized chip. If you turn off the wireless WIRELESSLY, then how the fuck do you turn it back on?

This is fucking retarded. If the chips were meant to be wirelessly accessible, it would say so in the book.


Also, if "electronic devices" included shit that is too small to have an access port, then why are Datajacks described as allowing "...a user to directly interface with any electronic device via a fiberoptic cable"?


I guess according to Derp Derp, it must be possible to shove a fucking fiberoptic cable into your contact lenses, since they're "electronic devices" and the book says you can access any electronic device with a fiberoptic cable.



Oh, wait. To anybody with a WORKING BRAIN, that makes no goddamn sense, so it's clear that the term "electronic devices" refers specifically to things that are large enough to have some kind of cable port.

Dude, nobody's leveling insults at you. Chill.

As the old saying goes, attack the subject, not the people.

Other people will have a different perspective than you. That doesn't make them stupid.




-k

No, but claiming that a pair of enhanced contact lenses can read data directly without the use of a commlink is pretty stupid.


No comment on the Datajack description, then?


Also, it's worth pointing out that the devices you are referring to are *not* what you initially described: They are not USB drives, they aren't fobs, and they don't have the size/shape of usb drives.

http://www.techspot.com/news/47618-fxis-19...t-computer.html

Current technology allows for a wifi enabled fully functional computer the size of a USB drive.
The datachip is finger sized. Have you actually looked at the size of your fingers? There's easily room for a wireless on/off button, as well as any kind of cable you'd like and a way to physically connect it to a commlink.

Fully functional? Where's the input? Where's the display? I'm familiar with these devices, but they don't do the things that you are all suggesting that they do.

They can.

As long as they've been commanded to, anyway.

Seriously, go read. I just did. They are peripheral matrix devices which can send and receive data to and from any device in their PAN, and with a connection, to and from any device on the Matrix.

No, they don't have the same capabilities as a Commlink. That is why they are peripheral devices.

That's straight RAW.

Literally every damn thing with chips in Shadowrun is wireless, can serve as a mesh node, and can pass and share data with any other wireless device. Some, like Nexi and Commlinks, are multifunction and can be used to hack and program. Others, like coffee makers and contact lenses and, in fact, data storage devices, are dedicated-purpose and can normally only be used for their specific designed task.

Peripheral Devices are usually slaved to a commlink or nexus in order to command them, yes. That does not mean they cannot send or receive data to another peripheral device directly.

In fact, the way the Shadowrun network system works, you don't have devices attached to a commlink to route the data. You have a bunch of devices and a commlink on a mesh network, with every single damn device capable of serving as a router to any other device.




Datajacks can "directly interface with any electronic device via a fiberoptic cable. "

If a device has a fiberoptic cable, it can interface with the Datajack. I don't see the confusion.



-k

The computer currently sitting on my desk is a fully functional computer. There are interface issues without the peripherals I plug into it, but it can compute without them.

The problem is that if any electronic device can be accessed via a fiber optic cable, and we consider contact lenses to be electronic devices, then you must be able to shove a fiber optic cable into your contact lenses.

This is clearly ridiculous. Chips are not read wirelessly; if they were, then why is "reading datasofts" one of the primary listed functions of a datajack? If you could read chips with your fucking toaster or contact lenses or fucking hair dryer, then why would that sentence be present in the description of a datajack?

Says who?

That USB drive in your pocket. Is it just a chunk of silicon, or does it have additional circuits and translation software to allow it to communicate with a USB port?




-k

And things were going so well.

If push comes to shove, yes: basically everything in SR4 is an electronic device, and has wireless. It's certainly possible that some things don't, but that's below the level of abstraction the rules care about. That's why things like Device Rating exist, despite being a horrible kluge.

Yes, not everything makes sense if you extend it all ad absurdum. Contacts probably don't have fiber-optic ports (a classic example that every SR4 player notices), even though 'all devices' might… in general; etc. Just make sure the GM and the players agree ahead of time, or yes, it's 'mean' GM fiat to spring it on them.

Datajacks *used* to be for chips, and they still are… if you don't want to use wireless, or the chip doesn't have it. But that's not incompatible with the option. Datajacks *themselves* have wireless, even though their primary purpose is—wait for it—being *wired*.

Chips are all but completely obsolete anyway. The commlink mentions a million little functions that no one cares about (they don't even get stats, even for the camera, the earbuds, etc.).

which brings up the other problem: that device you linked to doesn't have a power button that I can see. It's a peripheral, you plug it into a display.

So, add a power button.

Do you seriously not understand how USB devices work? Or are you being cute by trying to equate an integrated system (like the one in modern automobiles) with a fully-functional system (like the one in your computer)?

I thought this argument was about RAW? It's never directly stated that Data chips have wireless capability, or are considered electronics. It says that they are readable by any electronic device, but it also says that a Datajack is used for reading datasofts. Datajacks connect to any electronic device via a cable, but if we consider something like contact lenses to be electronic devices, then it's ridiculous.

You don't simply add power buttons to random things that don't need them because it would help you win an argument.

I think I realized where our disconnect here is.

JC, you are envisioning optical memory chips as JUST the bare storage media, much like a CD or DVD disc. You need a media reader to access it's contents, and it does not have any internal electronics. Maybe like a chunk of clear crystal like you see in many sci-fi shows for storage media. Yes?

If this is the case then yes it probably would not have wireless.

I think most of the rest of us are envisioning more along the lines of a USB thumb drive. USB drive are a set of flash memory connected to a set of transfer and control chips, with translation software for Plug-n-Play and some power regulation circuits. If you open up a USB drive they're actually pretty complex.

In this kinda setup, it would fall under the description "electronic device". It clearly has command and control electronics aside from the actual storage media, and more or less contains the media reader in one package. And as an electronic device it would automatically come with wireless.

It does not help here that the entire descriptive text on what a data chip looks like is "a small finger-sized chip". This could be read to mean ONLY the storage media, or the storage media WITH associated reader and control circuits in a chip container.

"Chip" being kinda a non-specific descriptive term.

The thing is, Datajacks have always been described more like a socket for plugging cables into than a media reader. Kinda like a USB port. So in my mind my second description makes more sense. And in the second, it wouldn't be hard to add a wireless antenna and power source.

Additionally, BTLs are described as similar chips, fit into the same chipjacks and datajacks as data chips, and are described as having varying levels of support electronics in them.



-k

Did you actually know how small USB drives can be? I've seen them down to 20 mm on the longest end, with 16 GB of storage. Storage hardly takes any space. Why would a datachip be so much bigger than needed if it did not include some additional features?

Um? You're the one who said a given (RL) device couldn't be X because it lacked a power button. So, assume in 2070 they added one. The point was that's a silly detail to be worried about.

The point is that it's also never 'directly' stated that these things *don't* have the features you list. You can't use that as an argument; that *is* the argument.

That is, indeed, the nature of the disconnect. The thing about datajacks, though, is that they are already described as having wireless capability; if they were simply hooking into the datachip as an electronic device, rather than a storage media, why wouldn't they just attach wirelessly? Why would you even need a datajack in the first place? Why would accessing datasofts even be referenced as one of the primary uses of a datajack?

The fact that BTLs are described as similar "chips", and are also described as being "chipped in" to either a simsense player or a datajack reinforces the idea that these chips are inserted, not accessed wirelessly. The additional electronics in a BTL are usually described as controlling certain feedback levels, or ensuring that the chip only plays once (which you can "fix" with a ridiculously easy Hardware test)

Also interesting is the description for the Data Lock, which states:

"Most importantly, the data lock is neither wireless-enabled, nor does the implanted character have mental access to the data—she’s merely a carrier."

Now, if these chips had to be accessed wirelessly, the Data Lock would be useless; it couldn't access a damn thing. If the chips were even capable of *both* - wired and wireless access - the implied security would be useless. You could just hijack the chip's wireless signal, or hack into it directly.



There are practical limits to miniaturization. Ask anyone who owned one of the "tiny square clip" ipod nanos.

I already addressed this: datajacks do multiple things. They have wired and wireless, why shouldn't they have chipjack and… wireless? The descriptions of BTLs/etc. only tell us that chips and chipping still exists, in part.

You don't need a datajack in the first place. It's old tech for old methods.

The Data Lock is a wholly separate thing. What does it have to do with chips? It says 'stored data', which is presumably on the Lock's normal (infinite) storage as an (electronic) 'device'.

If chipping wasn't a necessity for using BTLs, nobody would do it, and it would no longer be a thing. The datalock is not a separate thing; it's just a datajack without wireless. And arguments like this are why I keep losing my temper here: how the fuck do you expect data to have gotten into this fucking data lock if it has no wireless if not by chip? What happens when you need the data out of that guy's head but still portable? you use a chip.


Also, I'd like to remind everyone that we aren't actually that far past where SR3 was, and after a certain point huge leaps in technology become far more rare; unless there has been some serious retconning, data chips are just that: CHIPS.

… It's not necessary for BTLs. It's in the book. Chips do still exist, but they also don't *have* to. Everything is available as downloads. That's not really relevant to the question of whether chips have wireless, though.

A data lock might get data off a chip (physically) or via a wire (y'know, *the* primary function of the datajack?). These are both good options, neither of which precludes chips having wireless. I don't understand what relevance you think the data lock has. Yes, it's a data jack… minus the DNI and the wireless. So, not really a datajack at all; more like a data lock, which presumably has it's own memory storage.

Why is it a problem that these multiple options exist? Everything in SR is like that. Trodes/implanted comm/datajack, wired/wireless/skinlink/laser…

I assumed you kept losing your temper because you lack self-control.

It's necessary for BTLs on chips. Jesus Christ, you're pedantic.

You don't know that, you're just asserting it. That's the whole point of the discussion: chips may or may not *require* physical chipping. BTLs are a mere subset of all chips anyway, so it wouldn't prove anything either way, even if your extensional argument ('chipping wouldn't exist at all if it weren't *required*) were true… and there's no reason to think it is true. As I said: options.

The hilarious thing is that none of this really affects your original questions. Regardless of chip wifi, you can copy anything you want (without limit) onto you implanted comm via skinlink, wireless, etc. It would require some contrived situation like 'you're naked and someone hands you a chip' to make this an issue.

My assertions are based on what is written in the books, and what makes sense. Your's appear to be based on mental laziness, yet you talk as though they arr the letter of the rules.

That's false (dare I say, a falsehood?). Various people have presented book references for the various ideas here, including the point that basically everything is a wireless electronic device by default. 'What makes sense' means your own random opinions. I wasn't aware, of course, that we were even having a Big Serious RAW Debate. Your OP seemed a more reasonable common-sense question about what's possible or plausible in the setting.

Now, it is (as I've said) entirely possible that chips are totally passive and (apparently a critical issue for you) have no wifi. … So? As I just said, this barely affects any possible interaction in the game. Even if you found chips (unnecessary given downloads), you could easily slot them in almost any gadget, including a disposable commlink; you could then transfer the data anywhere you felt like.

Going by your assertion that everything is an electronic device, that means that everything has a port for a fiberoptic cable. Everything. Your underwear, your contact lenses, a condom, everything. See how fucking ridiculous that is? So either "electronic device" refers to a small subset of items in the book, or people's fucking eyeballs have fiber optic cables coming out of them.

I agree: we can assume that basically everything has a fiber cable port. Yes, 2070 is ridiculous. But we're also discussing the *general* default guidelines suggested by rules too abstract to care about such meaningless concerns.

You'll recall earlier that I suggested just doing what made sense, but that idea was rejected.

Me, I just play the game with everything wifi and skinlink, nice clean trodes, no stupid chips or wires. Everything works great.

You can't argue for RAW one minute, then turn around and say "derp derp do what you want!" as soon as your interpretation of RAW falls apart. If this was just about making up whatever rules made sense, we wouldn't be arguing. So which is it: do you play in a world where cables can be plugged into your eyeballs, or not? If not, then your argument that chips must have wireless because they're "electronics" because "everything is electronics" falls apart.

If we're doing what makes sense, then putting wireless access on a product whose only sensible use is as an ALTERNATIVE TO WIRELESS DATA STORAGE is fucking retarded.

As I said, I was never arguing RAW. And that wasn't my argument, it's *an* argument (Dakka Dakka's, I think?).

*My* argument is this: who cares, because you can copy data off your chips anyway, then throw the stupid things away?

No, it's not 'fucking retarded' (or derp, or moron, or whatever colorful term you toss in)… it's an option. They store data, and you can get it in a variety of ways. My opinion is that they have zero use to begin with, so what do I care? But there's no great reason they shouldn't have wireless, either.

The point is that there's no good basis to deny the possibility of this feature, especially given the default ubiquity of wireless in 2070. Again, why is it impossible for you to just enjoy the game how you like, and let others do the same?

I could ask you the same question: if you don't care, and just want everyone to play the game their way, why the fuck are you forever trolling every topic I've ever created with the same bullshit?

If you're arguing for it as an "option", then you're arguing Derpa Derpa's point. Someone would have to put wireless on the ONE FUCKING THING you wouldn't want wireless on. It'd be like putting windows on a goddamn safe. What are they there for? Why would you want them? Is that reason really worth ruining the one good thing about a godamn safe?

Altering his name into an insult is just childish. Tsk. I spent this whole thread helping you with useful information, and then after you singlehandedly bring the thread down into yelling and insults, *I'm* the troll?; ungrateful.

Chips are not data locks. They're just data storage. You're assuming they're supposed to be safes, based on nothing. I'm assuming they're supposed to be *read*. You want safe, buy one without wireless, add encryption, and hide it.

I never said they were data locks; but if they're just used to store data wirelessly, then they're already useless in the 2070's because people already have wireless storage EVERYWHERE. Even in the book they state that you can easily store data in a goddamn handgun. Why would you but a data chip for that purpose? The only sensible use for datachips is non-wireless storage. Encryption is beyond worthless in Shadowrun; it's ridiculously (unrealistically, actually) easy to break, and in your moron world where chips are all wireless, hiding the thing is pointless since you can just hack it wirelessly.

If you're expecting a "thank you" for turning a simple thread about cyberlimbs and commlinks into an argument over retarded bullshit, it's not likely.

Again, I agree: they *are* basically useless in 2070. Useless things can exist in the game. Sets of options almost always have suboptimal ones. And, again, you could get a chip without it, or disable it, etc. You're losing nothing.

As I said, it wasn't me who turned anything.

And this is how I know you're trolling. You're arguing that instead of being designed in a way that *would* make them marketable to a certain subset of people, datachips are instead designed in a way that makes them completely worthless to everyone. Why? Because it's the opposite of what I stated. There's no other reason, and you've never needed one. I was looking for something on dumpshock recently and went back through a bunch of older threads....any time I make any assertion on this board, you're there to shit on it for no logical reason, because you're an asshole.

I know my post here is worthless, but I won't feel right without posting anyway.

JonathanC, chill the fuck out.

It's a game. It's not real.

Why do you care what others think about the rules? These are strangers on the internet.

You play the game the way you want to play, in the world you want to play in, with the rules you want.

You have opinions. Others might have different opinions. How long have you not known this?

Jesus. It's sad seeing you doing this in multiple threads.

As usual, you're imposing your opinions on everyone else. Wireless chips are not 'completely worthless to everyone', you just happen to think so. If all my CDs had wireless, that'd be useful to me. I didn't put things on the CDs to hide them; this goes triple for my thumbdrives (which apparently do come with wireless), camera memory cards (which definitely come with wireless), etc.

If you can't imagine a use for a cheap little data storage unit besides a data safe, that's the fault of your imagination. And yes, I find them worthless in general (note that I don't say everyone has to agree with me or I'll mock their name); chips are an obsolete tech in 2070, as far as I'm concerned. This, too, is realistic, and hardly crazy.

If I'm frequently opposing you, it's because you're frequently wrong. Hardly my fault.

Why is it only sad that I'm arguing this point? My version as supportable by the rules, if not more so, than Dakka's or anyone else's in this thread. By RAW and by logic I am right; that's what is being argued here. Yere-whatever would be arguing with me if I stated that higher strength created more melee damage. He's just an asshole who likes to troll.

...and you just agreed with me. I'd say I'm surprised to see you change your tune ON THE SAME GODDAMN THREAD PAGE, but we both know this is about extending an argument for you, not what is correct by the rules.


Why would you use a wireless CD when you could be using dropbox, or emailing the files to yourself with gmail? CDs are for offline storage; they're used in situations when wireless isn't an option. And yes, optical discs can be used for security purposes as well.


In one paragraph, you managed to argue against your own point. "they aren't useless, but I totally think they're useless". It's hard not to call you an idiot when this is how you argue.


Cute. It's a shame the mods here don't care about flamebait.

It's sad that you get so worked up about it.

It's sad that you resort to name calling.

It's sad that you don't realize others have different opinions.

It's sad you don't understand that others can interpret the rules and setting differently than you do.

It's sad that you think you have found The One Truth™, and everyone else must be trolling to disagree with you.

Seriously. I'm not trying to be mean here. Just lighten up, ok?

See, you're talking about me doing that, while ignoring shit like this:



And I'm the one who believes I've found the one truth?

Yes, you are. When you say, 'X is the only right thing', it is wrong. That's the whole point: it's wrong to say that you've found the one truth. (There may be exceptions to this, but somehow you always manage to choose matters of opinion anyway.)

And again, that's the whole point: I can say they're worthless to *me*, but not assume that means they're worthless to everyone. The fact that you see this as a contradiction is the whole problem.

…Well, not the whole problem. Part of the problem is that you always resort to rage, namecalling, mistaking people names, calling *them* the trolls, and so on.

...and if your arguments weren't predicated on the exact same premise (that you are right, and I am wrong) you wouldn't be a hypocrite, but here we are.


I called you a troll because you are a troll. You've never attempted to add anything to one of my threads; you just argue whatever is opposite to what I state, and repeat yourself until you finally manage to piss me off.

You're telling falsehoods again. I added several things to this thread, before you went off the rails again.

You added one thing to this thread, before you started shitting all over it like you always do. It's always odd to have someone with no concept of truth calling me a liar.

Aha! You admit I added at least one thing, even though you said just before I didn't add anything. But that's beside the point, of course: you made your own mess here, as soon as Dakka Dakka (so easy to spell correctly!) suggested that chips had wireless.

All I said is that many people agree with that position, and that one could make house rules removing it if that's what the group wanted. And that it's basically crazy to go around saying, 'no, you're all wrong and stupid!'. Wait, that was phlapjack.

And you admit that you didn't add "many things".

Here's a challenge for you: stop trolling. The next time I start a topic, stay the fuck out of it. Stop replying to me, stop arguing your ridiculous bullshit as if it was RAW, stop arguing it as if it isn't, stop telling me what YOU think about how the rules ought to be, because we obviously don't agree, and I respect your opinion and intelligence about as much as I would expect the opinion of a steak on how it would like to be cooked.

And you've made it clear that the feeling is mutual.


ah, but I know I'm wasting my time. You'll never stop, because this is your only thrill in life.