Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Shadowrun 2050 is out!
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Halinn
On page 149, the sorcery skill group is referred to as containing "Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting, and Dispelling". Given that there's no Dispelling skill, I'm assuming that it meant to refer to Counterspelling.
Mordant
Also, for Naga-nuyen. I didn't include this in the previous post because it is completely unrelated to those points of discussion, but I kind of felt like replying to this as well. You are well within your rights to continue supporting the game line because you enjoy what the writers are bringing to the table, and because you love Shadowrun. I get that, and consumer loyalty and goodwill are in large part what many smaller publishing industries like this are built on. But if, through faults not necessarily of the freelancers themselves, a product is of unusable or diminished quality due to editing, poor design choices, or some fundamental disconnect from reality, then that is not a good end consumer product, and those practices should be changed. By supporting sub-par products, we are effectively validating those practices. For better or worse, and in one of the most overused adages ever, you vote with your wallet. I have nothing but good will for the freelance writers, who contributed things that I rather enjoyed in this book, and it is a book that I actively want to use, but because it is badly coordinated it is not a good final product. It has virtues, but they are bogged down by the product being pretty much unusable as published. Early date patching has become the norm these days, and probably one of the few viable routes for the industry as it stands, but it isn't a particularly good practice, and 'early' is pretty relative here, considering how long errata takes to come out sometimes. And those are problems with CGL and their editing and publishing practices, not necessarily with contracted content writers. CanRay has copped repeatedly to issues with omitted content from the Matrix chapter. Should the buck stop with him on that? No. The editing process of the book needed to be more comprehensive to allow these things to be caught. People are human, and they make mistakes. Editing across numerous publishing industries is coming to a lower standard, and consumers are accepting it because they want to support content, as is their right, and I am happy that authors are being supported, but it is also promoting broken publishing practices that need to be changed in order to raise the level of products.

Edit: In retrospect, I realize that this post was really preachy, and so for that, I apologize to readers. I am not, however, going to remove it because in general I do think those things, and I don't think it is out of line saying them. Just been down off of my soapbox for a couple of minutes and so thought I should make that clear.
Speed Wraith
Well, you're going to have to get used to companies releasing beta-version of products. That is just the way it is now. Progress isn't always pleasant, but there is no going back once you get there.
Mordant
I don't have to accept it, I can just not buy the products. Just because they can get away with it doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean that consumers have to roll over. You just have to decide whether quality is important to you, and whether you are collectively willing to let a company fail in order to communicate the idea that you want a better product. Inertia is in their favor, but that doesn't make it right, and it doesn't make their behavior acceptable. What you describe is not progress in any meaningful form, it is simply getting away with things because people have an emotional investment. I have nothing against Catalyst as a company, particularly, and if they want my money again, they can put out a quality product, which they have done in the past, so they are capable of doing again. I'm not going to change anything by my own action, but if enough people get fed up, then it can make a difference. Or not. But I will have tried, and that's worth something to me, even if it isn't to you.
Samoth
I'm with you Mordant. I think the last SR book I read that really blew me away was Dunkelzahn's Secrets -- which came out, what, 15+ years ago?

SR has had 3-4 different publishers and line developers in that time span, and all have brought their own vision. I appreciate that Catalyst at least puts out products on a regular basis (remember when it would be months between releases?), but when the products are sub-par and unusable, what's the point? I'm still trying to grasp exactly WHY SR2050 needed to be made other than as a cash grab, since it gives exactly nothing to the established metagame we are interested in. If you really wanted to play in 2050 times, it isn't too hard to go back to old sourcebooks and modify them yourself.

The problem seems to be that the developers outsource the writing and statting to fans of the game, who in turn have THEIR own vision for how it should be played, and then a centralized editor decides how the pieces submitted should be used in/out of context. This creates thoroughly pointless and worthless releases like SR2050 and War! which alienate the fanbase that have stuck with the product line through thick and thin for 20+ years, waiting for things to finally come together and make sense.

It has been discussed before, but perhaps Shadowrun's developers should open up any new releases to grognards like us who get OCD about details and editing and would do their work for free or in exchange for products. Instead of releasing these garbage supplements (and then passive aggressively defending their mistakes) they could produce a greater overall product that isn't hamstrung by an errata that may or may not ever come (Augmentation has been out how long now without one?)

Just my two cents from a greybeard grognard.

Mordant
I mean, I'm not against the idea of SR2050, in fact I am all for it. It appeals to me because I like the older edition setting but I actually think SR4's core mechanic is solid, more usable quickly, and is what my friends know, so I wanted the book to be good, and I bought it sight unseen. So I fit into one of the niches it was aimed at. I just am disappointed in the execution, because the editing problems with it make it so that I might as well HAVE gotten out my 1/2nd ed books and converted them, because I am probably going to have to do that anyway, if Jason Hardy's comments are any indication of the attitude that CGL itself has toward how they are going to support the product.

But yeah, I am happy when companies put out books, I just want them to be good. I like paying money for things that I can feel good about owning.
Mäx
Absolutely the best part about the book is that we finally got under-barrel grenade launcher as a weapon accessory love.gif
Fatum
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 21 2012, 11:33 PM) *
Absolutely the best part about the book is that we finally got under-barrel grenade launcher as a weapon accessory love.gif
Agreed, that's excellent; dunno why nobody did that before.

Also, where the hell is Ares Alpha in this book? It was in the previous editions!
Bigity
QUOTE (Fatum @ Jul 21 2012, 04:57 PM) *
Agreed, that's excellent; dunno why nobody did that before.

Also, where the hell is Ares Alpha in this book? It was in the previous editions!


It came much later on though. I think even post-SR3 core rules.
Nath
Ares Alpha was first featured in Fields of Fire for SR2, set in November 2054. Colonel Cobra mentions prototypes had been fielded as CAR-32 to "selected field-testers" for a couple of years at that point. So production would have started circa 2052-2054.
i101
Hmm, reading all this stuff bout bad proof-reading, missing prices on programm ratings and especially the money issue in combination with unbalanced bioware prices makes me not wanna buy this product. At least until those things get fixed.

ohplease.gif
CanRay
I'm fixing the programs!!!
i101
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 21 2012, 10:07 PM) *
I'm fixing the programs!!!

CanRay it was not my intention to insult you, from what I read here you've done a great job. Thank you for this cyber.gif
I am more concerned bout this money/bioware issuse. I just dont want to spend (again) my money on something 'almoste' ready.

Btw. how does 2050 handle character creation? If I remeber correctly metahumans used to be rare back in the days, you had to choose 'race' on priority 'B'. Charching "just" 20BP for an orc wouldnt seem that balanced to me. Anything on this case?

Cheers
Speed Wraith
QUOTE (i101 @ Jul 21 2012, 09:29 PM) *
Btw. how does 2050 handle character creation? If I remeber correctly metahumans used to be rare back in the days, you had to choose 'race' on priority 'B'. Charching "just" 20BP for an orc wouldnt seem that balanced to me. Anything on this case?

Cheers


From what I've heard, there are no character creation rules in there. Why reprint them, right? My group is playing with the horribly broken priority system (humans starting with maxed Magic AND Edge?) but I don't think sacrificing priority is all that different from dropping a ton of BPs.
Larsine
QUOTE (Samoth @ Jul 21 2012, 10:13 PM) *
It has been discussed before, but perhaps Shadowrun's developers should open up any new releases to grognards like us who get OCD about details and editing and would do their work for free or in exchange for products.


It is open, anybody is free to send in their ideas.

Why don't you just write your proposal to info@shadowrun4.com. I'ts not like anybody is stopping you from using the official channels, don't just sit around any wait for the developer to find you, get active...

Lars
Wakshaani
QUOTE (Larsine @ Jul 22 2012, 04:39 AM) *
It is open, anybody is free to send in their ideas.

Why don't you just write your proposal to info@shadowrun4.com. I'ts not like anybody is stopping you from using the official channels, don't just sit around any wait for the developer to find you, get active...

Lars


He means that the old farts would work as editors, to make sure everything checks out, instead of writers.

(Wak = old fart)
Bigity
Just saw the matrix stuff was core rules stuff, not VR2. I guess that makes sense, but always felt the VR2/SR3 rules worked better for the matrix.
Falconer
Bigity: Having never actually played a decker in prior editions. One of those tables which always NPC'd the decker to keep things moving and everyone together.


How well do the rules appear to work, especially regards the cyberdecks and there program limits?

My only point of reference is the old genesis shadowrun game... that had a lot of matrix stuff like this. And reading through the chapter I viewed pretty much everything through that line of reference. (including the maxim... sleaze works best! load it and use it early and often). The genesis rules seemed to work really well though.

I'm very curious for a more informed opinion than mine.
Sengir
QUOTE (Aaron @ Jul 20 2012, 03:41 PM) *
... that's more what I was thinking.

Well, the bit I quoted clearly says "you’re rigging with hot-sim VR (p. 245, SR4A)", and hot sim is 3 base IP, no ifs and buts wink.gif


Anyway, I still like the book very much after reading most of it, great stuff in writing as well as artwork and layout. Only thing which is not so great is the coherence between the gear chapter and the rest of the book -- the chapter itself is not bad at all (and nearly made me spill several drinks from laughing), it just would have needed to be better synchronized with the rest of the book. Then again, it's still more in sync than the essay collections most new SR books look like...
And I think what was overdone were comments like "naah, X is not gonna happen unless [even from future storyline], which is so TOTALLY unlikely". Once or twice OK, but not all the time.
CanRay
QUOTE (i101 @ Jul 21 2012, 09:29 PM) *
CanRay it was not my intention to insult you, from what I read here you've done a great job. Thank you for this cyber.gif

Cheers
Sorry, sorry. I was tired when I replied and should have known better than be posting.
QUOTE (Bigity @ Jul 22 2012, 10:27 AM) *
Just saw the matrix stuff was core rules stuff, not VR2. I guess that makes sense, but always felt the VR2/SR3 rules worked better for the matrix.
I went back to SR1 rules base book for that part of the book, rather than any supplements.
Bigity
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jul 22 2012, 10:39 AM) *
Bigity: Having never actually played a decker in prior editions. One of those tables which always NPC'd the decker to keep things moving and everyone together.


How well do the rules appear to work, especially regards the cyberdecks and there program limits?

My only point of reference is the old genesis shadowrun game... that had a lot of matrix stuff like this. And reading through the chapter I viewed pretty much everything through that line of reference. (including the maxim... sleaze works best! load it and use it early and often). The genesis rules seemed to work really well though.

I'm very curious for a more informed opinion than mine.


I just got to that part, will comment when I've read em. I think someone already pointed out an issue with the running program limit being off.
Bigity
I didn't personally care for the whole '2050 magicians were sooo dumb, they believed in domains!' stuff, but the rules stuff for magic seem pretty spot on.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Bigity @ Jul 22 2012, 10:48 AM) *
I didn't personally care for the whole '2050 magicians were sooo dumb, they believed in domains!' stuff, but the rules stuff for magic seem pretty spot on.


Naah, that was a fine theory when magic was in its infancy, and was just being rediscovered. Now (SR4A) they have realized that they were sadly mistaken, and as a result, Summoning (and even Spellcasting) has seen an increase in its utility and power. It will likely continue to be so in the future, as the magic level rises, and understanding increases. smile.gif
Neko Asakami
I've read the book all the way though and I personally thought I got my money's worth for the most part. The gear section was pretty funny, I liked the tongue-in-cheek of a lot of the comments, and am pleased about how the Magic system was done. CanRay, I'm sorry, but I ended up skimming most of the Matrix chapter. I did read the crunchy bits and it seems pretty solid (though I'm not really qualified to make that call), but it got a bit dry at points. Mainly though, my issues are with the Seattle and Hong Kong sections of the book. They were both, in my opinion, a waste of pages. Seattle should have been condensed to a line saying the ACHE (which is then SCIRE) wasn't completed yet and a list of names of who's who in the government and underworld. Hong Kong should have said "Run HK just like you would out of Runner Havens, just remember Wuxing isn't a mega but still controls everything." The section on Chi-Town was my favorite part of the book though, so applause as necessary to whoever wrote that.
Nath
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 21 2012, 10:33 PM) *
Absolutely the best part about the book is that we finally got under-barrel grenade launcher as a weapon accessory love.gif
In 3rd edition, the Ares Antioch grenade launcher was available as an independent weapon or as an accessory, and was "commonly used as an underbarrel addition to an assault rifle." In 4th edition, the Ares Antioch-2 description made not mention of such a possibility. The very fact that Arsenal features underbarrel bola launcher, flamethrower and grapple gun suggest the author thought the proposed grenade launcher could be integrated underbarrel.
Neko Asakami
Nath reminded me of something. To whoever "forgot" Stick'n'Shock in the ammo types: Thanks.
Bigity
Should have had FIREPOWER ammo though biggrin.gif
Stahlseele
SnS did not exist in 2050.
So this is not an Oversight, technically.
If there is no FirePower Ammo, that would constitute more of an Oversight in my Eyes.
Wakshaani
QUOTE (Neko Asakami @ Jul 22 2012, 11:43 AM) *
I've read the book all the way though and I personally thought I got my money's worth for the most part. The gear section was pretty funny, I liked the tongue-in-cheek of a lot of the comments, and am pleased about how the Magic system was done. The section on Chi-Town was my favorite part of the book though, so applause as necessary to whoever wrote that.


After someone mentioned it, I had to go read the gear chapter and, yeah, GREAT stuff in there.

I'll have to see who did Chicago. He did a really neat thing and asked teh freelancers for some Shadowtalk, to try and get more 'voices' involved. Some of mine (Not all of it, but some) is in there. He wrote everything that matters, I wrote snarky Chicago commentary. biggrin.gif

I owe him a hug for the opportunity.
Wakshaani
(Had to go fire up my copy and see what all I sent in. Wonder if the Higher Ups will let me post what didn't make the cut? Space is always at a premium, and lord knows my stuff wasn't important, but, a few of 'em make me giggle, so.)
Patrick Goodman
Scott Schletz did Chicago.
Wakshaani
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Jul 22 2012, 11:13 PM) *
Scott Schletz did Chicago.


Thank you, sir!

All props go to Scott Schletz... he rocked it.
Larsine
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 22 2012, 09:33 PM) *
If there is no FirePower Ammo, that would constitute more of an Oversight in my Eyes.

FirePower ammo was introduced in Street Samurai Catalogue in order for Heavy Pistols to matter. Nobody used Heavy Pistols before that.

In SR2 the damage codes for Heavy Pistols was increased, since it was generally accepted that they would always use FirePower, and thus there were no need for FirePower ammo any longer.

If Firepower would have been included in SR2050, then all damage codes of Heavy Pistols should be lowered.

So you could have Heavy Pistols damage at 5P, AP -.
FirePower ammo at Damage -, AP -1 (Ballistic), cost 20 nuyen, and the restriction that it can only be used in 2050's Heavy Pistols.

Happy now?

But all in all it would just be confusing, and not really matter a lot.
Aaron
QUOTE (Bigity @ Jul 22 2012, 02:10 PM) *
Should have had FIREPOWER ammo though biggrin.gif

FIREPOWER is in there, except it's called "regular heavy pistol ammo." =i)

[EDIT: Larsine explained it better than me, so never mind.]
Stahlseele
Ah, okay.
Fatum
Will there be a separate splat line for SR2050, btw?
Bigity
QUOTE (Fatum @ Jul 23 2012, 06:23 PM) *
Will there be a separate splat line for SR2050, btw?


Supposedly not, it is just a one-shot book. No other books are planned along those lines.
Fatum
That's a shame, there's so much stuff that could've gone there.
Halinn
QUOTE (Fatum @ Jul 24 2012, 03:33 AM) *
That's a shame, there's so much stuff that could've gone there.

And updating the old adventures to SR4a rules might've been cheaper than producing new adventures, while still adding easily usable content. Too bad.
Bigity
They are probably worried the 70s stuff would stop selling wink.gif
Wakshaani
QUOTE (Bigity @ Jul 23 2012, 09:05 PM) *
They are probably worried the 70s stuff would stop selling wink.gif


This is closer to the truth. It's hard enough competing against other products; competing against your *own* product is a terrible idea.

Putting out more 2050 stuff would take production time from SR4 stuff, which involves the current timeline, modern gear, etc.

If they give us the chance to work on some 2050 stuff, I'll leap in there headfirst, but, AFAIK, it's all SR 4 from here on out.
Grinder
QUOTE (Bigity @ Jul 24 2012, 04:05 AM) *
They are probably worried the 70s stuff would stop selling wink.gif


Well, at least they wouldn't get that much negative feedback about their vision of a metaplot. grinbig.gif
Bull
QUOTE (Grinder @ Jul 24 2012, 02:45 AM) *
Well, at least they wouldn't get that much negative feedback about their vision of a metaplot. grinbig.gif


I know you're largely kidding, but... I can guarantee that almost immediately people would start suggesting small (and gradually larger) changes to the 2050's metaplot, and then get upset if we didn't (while others would get upset if we did). And others would complain regardless taht we weren't doing it "properly", and othes would complain we were taking teh focus off the 2070's line, etc.

I love 2050, but... yeah.

Bull
Grinder
Such is the human nature. grinbig.gif
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Halinn @ Jul 23 2012, 07:38 PM) *
And updating the old adventures to SR4a rules might've been cheaper than producing new adventures, while still adding easily usable content. Too bad.

This is still not outside the realm of the possible. Several of us would like to see the stats, etc., updated for the classic adventures.
Speed Wraith
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Jul 24 2012, 08:10 AM) *
This is still not outside the realm of the possible. Several of us would like to see the stats, etc., updated for the classic adventures.


The way the Decking rules came out, there really isn't much that needs to be changed in the old modules. SR4 has an attribute that 1 and 2 didn't have, but it's a mental attribute that doesn't seem much in the way of augmentation anyway, so it isn't hard to glance at a NPC's stats and assign an appropriate rating for the stat.

Actually, Edge is also not a 1/2 attribute, but again, I wouldn't think it would be that hard to find the right number based on the needs for that character as a bad guy and that professional pool? or whatever it was called. I'm sure it'd make a handy guideline.
Falconer
I'm not certain this is so Speed Wraith. I've been trying to play my way through some of the old matrix nodes (Queeen Euphoria... that other one with the dragon who gets a datajack installed). And I'm fairly convinced the changes in memory and storage make the matrix rules unplayable or I'm missing something big.

Under the old rules I could have 1-4 programs of moderate to high rating loaded at once. Under these 1 max... or 2 with split ratings. Even utilities which were intentionally kept small at originally Rating x3Mp sizes to encourage their use as background utilities... can't be run. Because the size of the programs doesn't matter, only the rating towards the arbitrary memory limit!
All4BigGuns
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jul 24 2012, 09:28 AM) *
I'm not certain this is so Speed Wraith. I've been trying to play my way through some of the old matrix nodes (Queeen Euphoria... that other one with the dragon who gets a datajack installed). And I'm fairly convinced the changes in memory and storage make the matrix rules unplayable or I'm missing something big.

Under the old rules I could have 1-4 programs of moderate to high rating loaded at once. Under these 1 max... or 2 with split ratings. Even utilities which were intentionally kept small at originally Rating x3Mp sizes to encourage their use as background utilities... can't be run. Because the size of the programs don't matter, only the rating towards the arbitrary memory limit!


The Matrix rules in 2050 explicitly stated that the Memory limit was the number of programs. It has nothing to do with the ratings or the Mp sizes.
Mordant
QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Jul 24 2012, 10:32 AM) *
The Matrix rules in 2050 explicitly stated that the Memory limit was the number of programs. It has nothing to do with the ratings or the Mp sizes.


This is not the case. The entry for memory gives an explicit breakdown of how ratings play in with memory, and you can have programs loaded with combined ratings up to your memory. Not (memory) number of programs of any rating.
Falconer
QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Jul 24 2012, 11:32 AM) *
The Matrix rules in 2050 explicitly stated that the Memory limit was the number of programs. It has nothing to do with the ratings or the Mp sizes.


Once again you've directly contradicted me. WITHOUT READING THE MATERIAL All4Big!!! Coming from someone who also claims less than 1000karma is unplayable... please excuse us if we completely disregard anything you have to say.


"If the cyberdeck has a Memory of 4. It can load two Rating 2 programs, or a Rating 3 and a Rating 1 program, or a single Rating 4 program" Exact quote, including bad grammar.


How about trying reading the material in question before wasting everyone's time and BW.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012