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tete
Ok well now I've finally read the magic and matrix rules enough to form an opinion. Both I think went too far back, I feel like its punish the hermetic mage time because it feels like his summoning is going to be terrible while shamans get their cake and eat it to (though the shaman could get hosed being in the wrong environment). And there still no fixing mind control spells and other problem children. The matrix rules I think are more solid but with alot of fiddly bits again, though the numbers are smaller.

The rest of the book is rather interesting seams to have something for everyone but not really targeted at anyone (ie old guard, new players, 4e players etc)

Over all 3 outta 5 but nothing against the authors, it just feels rushed and not playtested enough. I'm not a fan of non targeted books. I also gave Attitude 3 outta 5 as a reference.
CanRay
Tete, what exactly was your problem with the Matrix Chapter?
Fatum
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 26 2012, 07:16 AM) *
Tete, what exactly was your problem with the Matrix Chapter?
If I may answer that,
QUOTE ( @ p.155)
Cyberdecks can use the rating of programs equal to the deck’s Memory, in any combination. (e.g., if the cyberdeck has a Memory of 4, it can load two Rating 2 programs, or a Rating 3 and a Rating 1 program, or a single Rating 4 program).

Combined with cyberdeck prices, that's quite unfunny and turns decking into software juggling.
Bigity
QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 26 2012, 10:34 AM) *
If I may answer that,

Combined with cyberdeck prices, that's quite unfunny and turns decking into software juggling.


Yea, starting decks in SR1/2 weren't NEARLY that unforgiving with active programs. Just make it a count of programs, instead of rating, but even that seems kinda low.
Falconer
Which completely loses the old SR1 or 2 flavor Bigity. The point was that bigger problems took more space and you had less space to run other things. Only people who want utterly no real constraints on the decks would enjoy that. The system was ported almost word for word... what the programs did, how they worked, the thresholds, etc. So then why did memory so radically change?

I personally think the changing of Mp sizes was unnecessary. It simplified nothing in real terms as you still have programs of two different sizings. And simply made all the SR2050 Mp sizes incompatible with those from prior material. I simply don't understand the reasons or rationale for the changes at all. Let alone how it was seen as an improvement by any metric. And it makes me seriously question if the product was seriously playtested at all.


The best way to fix the problem is simply to resort to the old memory size, storage & transfer rates. That's unlikely though because it needs too much changed now even in other sections of the book (such as cybereyes memory capacity and who knows what else).

The second best was TJ's suggestion (IIRC). Treat the memory rating like skillwires in the SR4a mainbook. You can load up to 2x the memory rating in program capacity at once, but no single program higher than the memory rating.
Bigity
QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 26 2012, 12:26 PM) *
Which completely loses the old SR1 or 2 flavor Bigity. The point was that bigger problems took more space and you had less space to run other things. Only people who want utterly no real constraints on the decks would enjoy that. The system was ported almost word for word... what the programs did, how they worked, the thresholds, etc. So then why did memory so radically change?

I personally think the changing of Mp sizes was unnecessary. It simplified nothing in real terms as you still have programs of two different sizings. And simply made all the SR2050 Mp sizes incompatible with those from prior material. I simply don't understand the reasons or rationale for the changes at all. Let alone how it was seen as an improvement by any metric. And it makes me seriously question if the product was seriously playtested at all.


The best way to fix the problem is simply to resort to the old memory size, storage & transfer rates. That's unlikely though because it needs too much changed now even in other sections of the book (such as cybereyes memory capacity and who knows what else).

The second best was TJ's suggestion (IIRC). Treat the memory rating like skillwires in the SR4a mainbook. You can load up to 2x the memory rating in program capacity at once, but no single program higher than the memory rating.


Well that would be for the best, but it's not streamlined enough for SR4 I'm guessing.

The skillwires idea seems pretty workable.
Fatum
By 2012, tabletop gamers have lost their ability to operate numbers higher than 5 (lost their second hands, I guess?)
CanRay
QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 26 2012, 05:50 PM) *
By 2012, tabletop gamers have lost their ability to operate numbers higher than 5 (lost their second hands, I guess?)
Too many MMOs making them used to having the computer do all the hard calculating?
TeknoDragon
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 17 2012, 12:07 PM) *
I played a lot of the Genesis Shadowrun Matrix runs to get into the proper feel for writing the chapter. I'll say that much.

It was just posted on the Shadowrun Facebook page that they're hoping for a release today. But that's just me moving info around, so I can't get in trouble with that.

I hope people will find the rules I used to be good. I worked very hard on them. I started writing the day AFTER I got home with my broken arm!


Aha, that explains the table goof!
hobgoblin
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 27 2012, 08:03 AM) *
Too many MMOs making them used to having the computer do all the hard calculating?

Maybe. Or at least wanting "instant" gratification.

Never mind my personal suspicion that MMOs have led to a surge in "play to win" attitudes in regards to number crunching the hell out of character builds.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 27 2012, 11:51 AM) *
Never mind my personal suspicion that MMOs have led to a surge in "play to win" attitudes in regards to number crunching the hell out of character builds.

Ya think? sarcastic.gif
Bigity
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 27 2012, 11:51 AM) *
Maybe. Or at least wanting "instant" gratification.

Never mind my personal suspicion that MMOs have led to a surge in "play to win" attitudes in regards to number crunching the hell out of character builds.



I can say for sure that Anarchy Online was not one of those MMOs. Getting a ridiculously high set of implants in was nearly a math project worthy of an math thesis.
X-Kalibur
The only way to beat an MMO is to not play it. nyahnyah.gif
CanRay
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Aug 27 2012, 08:18 PM) *
The only way to beat an MMO is to not play it. nyahnyah.gif
YAY! I've won!!!

Back to SR2050 now, SVP.
X-Kalibur
I haven't read the material yet myself (I'm rather behind on picking up SR4 bits) if you wrote the chapter on the Matrix after playing lots of the Genesis Shadowrun... I'm sure it's well written and great fun. That was my favorite part of that game.

F*** You tar pit!
Bigity
I really miss the different types of IC.


EDIT: We need a spin off game that's just matrix stuff. Then we don't have to entertain all the meatbags with their turns and crap, it will just be all deckers, all the time.
Fatum
QUOTE (Bigity @ Aug 28 2012, 05:30 PM) *
I really miss the different types of IC.
You can still have ICs with different program layouts, they're just not being unique anymore. I don't think this is a bad thing, but if you really want your programs erased (or whatever it is you desire), you can always make a fan supplement out of it :3
Bigity
You should keep copies offline nyahnyah.gif
CanRay
QUOTE (Bigity @ Aug 28 2012, 08:30 AM) *
I really miss the different types of IC.
Different types of IC: Found in SR2050's Matrix chapter! biggrin.gif
Bigity
Now CanRay, I did buy 2050, but I'm still not playing SR4/A. Not that I'm playing SR1-3 right now either, but there ya go.
Falconer
Now now Bigity. Canray is not allowed to play. If you see Canray playing call in the hit squad.

But anyhow, the biggest problem I remember with the old sega game was that you really only needed a handful of programs. Most of them were a waste of program space. I mostly remember 'sleazing' my way past pretty much everything, and occasionally resorting to attack & medic.

What utilities did others run with playing that old classic?
tete
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 26 2012, 04:16 AM) *
Tete, what exactly was your problem with the Matrix Chapter?


Lets start out with this is MY problem and that I have alot of respect for CanRay. If I'm playing 2050 with 4e I'm not expecting old clunk I'm expecting a new shiny system with homage to the old flavor. Now while your rules are better than the old, I was disappointed to see so many fiddly bits back. For me if I want to play completely old school out comes the SR2 book. I do think your conversion is really accurate considering the time restrains im imagining with this product but it just went back a bit too far for me into the old system.
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