I would give a finite Edge Attribute to Important Opponents. It would be spent just like a PC could.
I would not tend to re-purchase any burned Edge, however. Eventually, that NPC's luck WILL run out. Assuming I use it for such things.

In the end if you disagree with how a GM runs a game you can leave. In that situation, yeah the GM is being an ass IMHO. But then again, the GM decides the opposition, the pucker factor of the game, and how pink mohawk/mirrored shades the game is.

Back OT:In the two times that I've had players invoke the hand of god (during the course of 4 years of running the game for this group):

1. Shedhim killed the mage and took her body. With HOG, it was she's alive, almost dead and unconcious. Also she got the nasty vibe to her cause her astral form tried to return to body occupied, shoved it out but not quite.

2. One player invoked HOG, but I did not allow it. He was unconcious and was slain 3 times over by another PC. It lead to my house rule that you may be in a situation where HOG won't help you.

Ohh... that last one. I would have allowed the burning of edge for Hand of God, BUT I would have then claimed the PC's char as a NPC!

Technically it lived... and imagine the paranoia on the other player! Really if the other player REALLY wanted him dead he should have burned edge also! (if two people burn edge on the same test, treat the test normally!).

If that happened to my character, I'd be pissed. If I burn edge, it's because I want to continue playing the character. It might as well have died if I wouldn't get to do that.

Yeah, but how do you rationalize surviving (since if you burned Edge it has already happened) being shot to death, having your head cut off, and the remains burmned to ash. Somtimes, there is just no recovering.

By RAW I'm probably incorrect, but after the busta-move pulled the trigger 9 times to the head I kinda of said, erm no edge can help you.

Halinn:
Only reason I'd consider this is because it's PC on PC violence. This isn't the GM plotting to kill a player, this is another player. Lets say HOG occurs and PC gets it back... then what... we have a full-fledged civil war among the PC's.


Warlord:
Sounds like you're being too generous with your bust-a-moves... You've got a minidrone the same size or smaller than a light pistol. Generally the most I allow is to duct tape a grenade to one then have it crawl into position before self-destructing. At most a hold-out pistol built into it using a weapon mount, it is only a minidrone. Also remember they don't have manipulator arms, and even if they are modded... 10cm long arms with 1 strength aren't going to be able to do a lot.


But overall, that's an easy one to HOG. Scalp wounds tend to bleed an awful lot making people think they're worse than they are. Bust-a-moves aren't known for their high end sensor suites especially when the Nth shot puts blood all over the camera lens... claim PC as an NPC and plot the elaborate revenge (with some help from the original PC).

The entire point of HOG is that no matter what, some miracle occurs! So in this case, I feel for your screwed over player. That it never gets to the point of dead, decapitated and buried.

I wouldn't. A dead character happens, and sometimes it's so bad that even HoG shouldn't save you. But being turned into an NPC would just aggravate me.

Not quite true - cancellation only applies to burning for crtical success (except for greater dragons, of course). Hand of God kinda trumps everything by definition so I can't see any reason for a critical success to be any different.

Heh... Got it.

I know... a dragon kidnapped the PC and left a clone in it's place with the full intention of having it killed. The other PC only saved him the trouble :P.

A spirit possessed his unconscious body giving him immunity after he was shot once... the wound looked worse than it was. And the other player only thinks he's dead.

HoG
"...have more uses for this character before she’s discarded to the trash heap and miraculously pull her from the jaws of Death. Gamemasters can explain this phenomena with any rationale they like, from sheer coincidence to the intervention of the gods."
Miracles don't need to make sense! Neither do dragons :)
In the words of the immortal Miracle Max
"There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do. Go through his clothes and look for loose change."

Note to self: get PC's killed more often so I can actually have some fun with HoG.

They were slightly modified. But that being said, the bustamoves in use were 2 ft tall variety not the size of a beanie baby. AFB from the exact description but they were about that size (or how I'd imagined them to be).




Actually the player was ok with it and made another one. He wasn't even annoyed at the player who killed him.

Huh. Well I'll be ...
Would never have thought they'd ditch that caveat.
Ho hum, another house rule for my list.

Now now Aerospider, that doesn't mean you can't make the player WISH he was dead! A slow pailful slide from prime runner into wannabe ganger.


Turn him into a complete gimp and make him play a few sessions and he'll probably kill himself off! That's too easy and direct though... the more elaborate and devious the better.

Those of you who think there are situations in which you shouldn't be able to hand of god just have no...i repeat...no imagination or improvisational skills. Its too easy to die in shadowrun. Thats what hand of god is for. And if your players are going to PVP and kill eachother...then shooting them in the head, chopping them into bits, burning them, dumping their ashes in 3 different oceans...is just pure metagame and shouldn't fly...and should never happen in the first place. If one player decides that he wants to hand of god, then it takes place at the moment he would normally have died...not after

So if you shot them in the head 9 times and they were dead on the 3rd, then after the third shot, something would happen to impede the murderous player. If your in the middle of the woods, a drop bear falls on you, or a random spirit disturbed by your loud noises attacks you before you can shoot any more.

If your in the middle of a city, perhaps you just happen to be at the location of a suspected crack house and lonestar chose that moment raid, and now you have 10 laser sights tracing over your chest.

there are a lot of ways to intercede on someones behalf for hand of god.

use a little creativity on behalf of your players. not doing so is just a lazy copout.

That's really not the point. The OP asked for consequence ideas, not 'don't allow HOG'; and then the crazies argued (incorrectly) that 'consequences' aren't even allowed (by RAW, morality, 'fun', etc.).

NQs seems like a good source for consequences because they're a known quantity. The GM can certainly invent basically any effect that fits the situation, but NQs are a ready-made list of ideas, complete with BP values. This has no implication on 'punishing', being a good or bad GM in general, or on fun/fun. It's just a convenient list of options for the game.

Actually that's not the case. it was these are new players with a new GM, learning the game. The gm had already decided to place the PC in a coma, so he won't be able to finish the run, in addition to losing the edge. That is sufficient penalities for a newbie player. Sadleing a newbie player with negative qualities, is silly and coutner productive. If the player and the gm weren't newbies then it's a different story. But the last thing you want to do as a newbie GM with newbie players, is introduce unneccessary rules without first getting a firm grasp of the basics. The argument was that it was simply not approiate given the lack GM and Player experience to introduce new levels of complexity which arise from negative qualities not contemplated by either the GM or the Player which still trying to learn the fundementals of the game.

I agree with this 100% and I said so earlier.

Yerameyahu, I was responding to how this thread was starting to spiral into whether there were situations where a player could even use hand of god. My point was that a player should always be able to hand of god because baring a player from using it in *certain* situations is just lazy. And trying to give them extra negative qualities if their not willing to work with them is just punishment beyond necessary.

And as for getting a possitive quality after hand of god...And a near death experience may be one of those rare situations where if a player had the karma they could choose pick up certain possitive qualities as well...if they have the karma.

From SR4A, page 270


I'd say a near death experience would qualify as a major change or event in a character's life.

And as long as the Character has the Karma to invest in such things, then so be it. They should nerver get it for free, though. As I said earlier, there are always options. You do not always have to pick the Harshest (or the easiest) solution.

Yes. But in answer to the OP...No you dont need to give your newb player any more negative qualities unless you want to talk it over with them first because if you dont he may decide its not worth it and now your short a player.

Maybe we are blessed with optimal players at our table then. We have had no such problems, even with New Players, because they all trust the GM.

That is what it comes down to, in the end... Trust in the GM that he is going to tell a good story.

I get what you are saying, though.

And I said this doesn't make sense:Why are we assuming the GM is some 'not willing to work with them' asshole? Why are we assuming 'punishment'? I also don't think 'newbies' are too stupid to grasp an appropriate NQ.

My point was this: *if* additional consequences are appropriate, desired, etc., then NQs are a perfectly nice source. This is in response to the loud proclamations that god forbid the GM do anything except take their point of Edge and buy them a pizza. Again, this has nothing at all to do with 'punishing', being a bad GM, whatever. Those are wholly separate issues.

Like I said and think got lost WAY earlier in the thread.

Delusion is a great cheap negative quality. Even for a newbie. It can be funny and easy to RP for everyone. Just because it is a negative quality doesn't mean it's going to be a huge handicap or punishment.


Just pick something that isn't going to take too much of a toll to RP, but occasionally will cause problems.

Example: the mage has delusions that the only reason he's alive is that spell sustaining focus. He's reluctant to ever let it leave his person or turn it off. It's not that he can't or wont, he's just very very reluctant.

Or he could be convinced that the rats are out to get him. Where aren't there rats... and his compulsion to leave dead rats wherever he goes when he sees them generally won't cause too many problems except when it does.

Think what im talking about for a second.

I agree that negati e qualities would be a good recourse if: 1) Player and GM are experienced players (not newbs) 2) players and gm trust each other.

But, New GMs often make the mistake of punishing their players needlessly. And new players often dont have the patience to stick with a game if they feel the character they took the trouble to create after half learning a new game is being made useless in their eyes. Whether they are actually being made useless doesnt matter. If they perceive that their character wont be what they wanted then they're going to lose interest.

My statement above was assuming that its both a new gm and a new player. And yes, most newbs are at least ignorant of the full impact of a negative quality. From my own experience, when my group and i play a new system we will usually just start playing and learn the rules as we go. As a result we often make decisions for characters that may not be 100%in sound. And its the same for me as a gm. If im going to asign a negative quality to a character i want to make sure that i know what im doing. If i dont quite know what the results of my actions will be then i'll keep it simple.

And just to be absolutely clear, this is my ADVICE to a new GM, not a command or ruling. If he feels that his players trust his decisions enough, the he can feel free to talk to his player about assigning a negative quality.

As regards disallowing the Hand of God on grounds of impossibility:

In my game, NPCs aren't genre savvy enough to know that nobody is truly dead unless you've decapitated them, splattered their brains all out, or disintegrated them. Therefor, a player who invokes the Hand of God gets to live, even if they were executed by shot to the head. They'll just get called "Courier" or "Jensen" for a while.

If a PC does it... Well, no. Just no. I won't have that shit at my table. If you're going to start PvP, that character becomes an NPC. If you don't like it, you're no longer welcome at my table. I will not have those shenanigans going on.



If, for some reason, a player dies in an "overkill the head to be sure they're dead" situation that I can't think of any plausible HoGging out of, then I go to the implausible: Congratulations, you're a successful double-blind field-test of Retroexocephaloderm Red #1. Having your brain transcribed to the clone brain is definitely going to induce neurological funny business and rightly ought to burn out any Awakening you have, but probably won't.

Sounds like we agree, then, ZeroPoint. I'm saying *if* consequences are desired, NQs are not at all a bad source (and not assuming 'new' GM/players = bad GM/players). You're saying, 'be careful in case new = bad'.

My NPCs are usually only Genre Savvy enough about that in Deadlands only, not in Shadowrun.

That said, there's some that are of the "Two to the chest, one to the head" crowd to make sure.

And once there is a body, they either give them concrete galoshes, or take them to the local sausage factory to eliminate the evidence. THe only way to be sure that there are no ties that lead back to you. Come on, it is a trope for a reason.

Thanks for the suggestions for those who gave them. I decided to go with the mentor spirit idea, balanced out by a debt the spirit, to be paid in the form of a favor.

I certainly didn't mean to spark a debate about it, though. As for whether or not there should be consequences, my only previous experience with a similar mechanic is WFRP's fate point system. For those not familiar with the system, the genre equivalent to the quadriplegic street samurai would be perfectly acceptable for preventing death due to spinal injury, so my bias towards heavy punishment comes from there.

Also, on the subject of newness, I meant new to Shadowrun, not playing/GMing.

Anchor. Typically, the knees give out and the body washes up (or the person has Plastique in a hidden compartment of their cyberarm, as The Chauffeur found out the hard way!). Also, bags of concrete get noticed on docksides. An anchor and chains? Not a second glance.

Well, yeah, there is that.
Sausage Factory still works, though.

You're thinking too hard.


Need to dispose of a body?

Sell it to Tamanous and maximize your profit. Or just toss it into the nearest ghoul den if you're in a real hurry.

Could do that too. If you already own a sausage factory, though...

The last rigger in my campaign used a coach for his main transportation and had the toilet cubicle replaced with a woodchipper.

I wish I could say that was the oddest thing he did to it.

Storytime!

Seconded. You must tell us the story of this bus!

It had rockets so it could jump a train right?

< Bad_Irish_Accent >I got a bus.< /Bad_Irish_Accent >

While that was a great story (and bomb big enough to make hardened IRA bombers leery about its use is epic,) we're asking about a different bus this time, CanRay.

I know, I'm just reminding folks.

Tell us about the other bus now!

Let's see, chameleon coating to the extent of representing passengers in the windows. Specific NPCs in particular.

Rear lowered down drawbridge-style as a drone ramp.

Full home entertainment centre, of course.

Electric-shock security.

Smoke deployer.

A bird house for some house martins he/she (we never found out) was trying to train.

Interior section dedicated as a place of worship for an all-inclusive religion he/she made up for a single, wide-scale con attempt. Orthodox Hin-Jew Christianism in Space IIRC.

Oh, and a blimp attachment. I explained that the bus was too big and heavy for it to work, but this didn't seem relevant to him somehow.

At some point I gave up on checking RAW.

The character sadly martyred him/herself at the end of the last arc but the team still has the bus, despite that it's wanted for being used in connection with a terrorist attack on civilians (though that was actually another PC's doing).

Is there really that much of a gap here for consequences? I mean really? Any other game in the industry, your character is DEAD. People are really bitching about having to pay what the GM chooses?

Man, such a culture gap.

Heresy! As an Eastern Hin-Jew Christian in Space, I find that religion to be abominable and a sin against the Lords,


1) Most other games aren't as deadly.
2) Shadowrun specifically has rules allowing the player to decide if the death is final or not. GMs overriding the RAW are often a contentious discussion.

snipe
Eastern Orthodoxy is Christianity....
/snipe

Dungeons & Dragons: Technically true, but death is just a hefty sum of money away from being a temporary inconvenience, much like spending a little while in the lock-up until your best friend can post bail/pay your fine.
Star Wars: Not your time to die yet? Spend destiny point, say "lolno" to the attack/damage that should have killed you.
Exalted: Perfect Defenses say what? That's right, they say "the character takes no damage."


And of course, let's not forget the king of revolving-door mortality, Paranoia, where you come pre-loaded with extra lives in the form of clones.

But the point of Paranoia is to go through your clones faster and more creative than everyone else

Yeah, Paranoia isn't the greatest example for survivability.

In D&D, your ability to survive death is more often than not entirely dependent on the other players and whether they want to spit up the cost of paying for Raise Dead, Resurrection, or True Resurrection unless they've changed that. Consequently, if you don't get True Resurrection you lose at least 1 level. There's all various pests that will permanently drain attributes. Shadowrun's death recovery is tame compared to D&D.

But then there's the whole thing in D&D where its harder to actually die to an appropriate encounter. Enemies won't kill you in one turn in general, and like i just mentioned, it has "appropriate encounters" where enemies are placed at a specific power level so as not to be too powerful. Shadowrun doesn't have "appropriate encounters." You get in a fight, there's no telling just how hard or easy they will be, and one bad roll can (or one really good roll) can put you in the red in many circumstances.

And, when its pretty trivial to have access to weapons/spells that can get greater DVs than your opponents have Damage tracks, that should say something about how deadly this game can be.

The only RPG I can think off on the top of my head where death is easy and difficult to mitigate is GURPS (and given the nature of it, it still has several options for surviving death)