How about under water?

No differing effect from air, I suppose. Diffraction with water happens because light moves from air to water or from water to air. So unlike most weapons fired underwater, laser weapons shouldn't have any range reductions.... Other things like murky or dirty water would affect it though. I'm assuming the laser isn't one that requires time on target to do damage so it's not as though water would be able to cool the spot either...

But water, being denser, will significantly increase the effects of difraction. Also, more of those photons will collide in the denser liquid, so you'll lose heat quicker (possibly with deadly affects). Remember that a powerful laser isn't silent; it makes a crack as it superheats all the air along the path, which then dissipates harmlessly into the atmosphere. Water means more superheating and slower dissipation, not to mention shock from the sudden burst of steam.

Depending on the output of the laser weapon, you might even create plasma close to you, which might get somewhat uncomfortable.

So, no cybersharks with frickin' lasers on their heads?

Pity.

Ummmmm.... SA Mode IS a double tap.

There was an interesting article about using surface-to-water lasers to convert the laser to an acoustic signal that submarines can pick up. So, your shark could have lasers that effectively fire a sonic attack. I thought there was an exotic weapon to duplicate that effect, but I couldn't find one (the pain inducer is microwave-based, correct?)

If you know anything about guns it's obvious that the SR approach is stupid beyond belief. Essentially SR would have you believe that a .308 24" Remington 700 does X damage & Y AP. and a M24 Sniper rifle does X+2 damage and Y+2 AP. Given that a M24 sniper rifle IS a 24" Remington 700 in .308 this makes exactly zero sense.

So arguing anything based on real guns in this entire thread is completely pointless.

D'Oh! You're right, where had I left my brain yesterday ...

Oh, another target of my jokes, after the Desert Eagle. Did you know that the ejector can chuck a spent casing ten metres away? Go fetch it, trenchcoat.

Also, I recommended exactly the same customized sports rifle to two of my players. Ruger 100 with imaging scope modded with a smartlink, an external smartgun system, extended ten-round magazine and a suppressor. Inexpensive, powerful and semi-automatic. Something like the Mini-14.

I would also recommend easy breakdown modification so it can be more easily transported and/or smuggled into secure locations.

I would go with the Remington 750 as it only cost 500Y as compared to the Ruger 100's 900Y. It ups the cost 400Y for the Semi-Auto modification and easy breakdown.

Sporting rifles are good up to 750 meters.

How often do you guys have situation where such distances are needed or where he situation allows for it?
Urban landscapes/forests etc seldom allows for more than a couple of hundred meters.

A bullpup design sports rifle with shortened barrel and a scope is still 600 meters for added concealability.

I agree Max range isn't that important, but anything that improves your Max range also improves your short & medium range.

True, but that is kinda redundant with either improved rangefinder, scope or SL2 and optical magnification cybereye mod.

And short range with a sports rifle with shortened barrel is still 80 meters.

Not really redundant, as the closer you are the more you can use OTHER modifiers, as soon as you start actually using your scope beyond the base, you either take the negative or you lose out on other mods such as Smartlink so maximizing your short range allows you to use other things like Aim more effectively

That's something I didn't think of. However, I'm not too keen on the Remington - to a semi-competent gun nut like me, modding a bolt-action gun to a semi-auto one is, frankly, BS.

It's certainly possible.

You'd just have to rebuild most of the weapon.




-k

Good point, realism kind of throws most weapon modifications out the window.

For the assured kill I'd still use a scoped bipod long barreled PJSS rifle with double barreled Ex-Ex ammunition

For the ambidextrous close combat troll I'd go with twin PJSS with underbarrel PJSS and sawn of barrel and stock and Gas vent III to ward of the insane recoil they will create firing them one handed without a proper shoulder stock

1. You look cool
2. Can "snipe" with both weapons at 600 meters
3. Are not bothered by that "two handed weapon" rules
4. Intimidation factor
5. Can call them "my little holdouts" with a straight face

If you have six arms and is a changeling and have X6 of the above you have more money than sense and I cannot help you.

Lean against a wall before firing all six of them at once though.

You just reminded me of the six-armed Minotaur one of my friends once tried to bring to the table. We said 'which part of subtle do you not understand?'... and this is a group where half the players (not the characters, the players) have both distinctive style and signature.
I was eventually called in to build him a troll Al Capone who had a custom LMG that looked like a tommy gun. And this was the less distinctive option *facepalm*

Yea, whenever excessive weapons are abound and exotic characteristics the subtle part of SR is kinda blown apart.

BUT, the subtle thing about shadowrun can be that you are not IDENTIFIED during a run. Now, being a sixlimbed runner dressed in a tuxedo trying to keep a low profile at a party on the space needle might be bit more difficult - unless you are the diversion for the suave James Bond face that infiltrates the upper office floor while you make an ass of yourself in the bar.

Six limbed with detachable cyberlimbs packed in a bag on the other hand...

No. It's not redundant. Improved rangefinder only reduces the range penalties by -1 so the effect is great at medium range and meh at long and extreme ranges. Using the scope or magnification option requires you to expend a simple action to eliminate the penalties (even with krav maga you're still burning your free action for the take aim and your rate is only improved to 1.5 per IP rather than 1 per IP compared to the ideal of 2 per IP). For most sport rifles or any weapon with SS firing mode it's a non-issue however for any SA/BF/FA that's a huge issue since you're now expending a simple action to eliminate those range penalties and losing it as an opportunity to attack. Thus a longer extreme range means you will have a longer short/medium range and your need to burn actions taking aim is eliminated/reduced.

Why are you using Cased Rounds? That is your first mistake.
Mini-14 is a sound weapon (LOVE my Ruger Weapons to death), to be sure. Not as stylish, though.

Indeed... Hawkeye PQ for the Win... Woo needs a scope at that point.

Brass Catcher.Garand-System, good, reliable Canadian design. (Yes yes, it was designed in the US, but it wasn't designed by a USer!)

Garand is also a great weapon, though a little heavy for my tastes (having been a grunt who carried a combat load over 100 lbs, IN COMBAT no less (It often sucks to be the radioman), I tend to shy away from such heavy problems in play. Hated it , Hated It, Hated It). It is Why I shy away from the Barrett, in fact, even if SR4A does not include such issues.

I wasn't talking about sport rifles in real life but was simply drawing a parallel to real life gun laws as a possible explanation for the difference in firing capabilities.

I never said that sport rifles in real life had to be single shot bolt action.

Could be worse, could be a SAW Gunner.

Did that too... And a SMAW Assault Gunner, M-60 Gunner and even dabbled in Mortars. I was cross trained extensively indeed...

Beats the alternative: Barely trained bullet catcher.

Agreed. The new pistolero on the players' team has it - with revolvers, it's cool. With the Ruger, it's SCARY.
Oh, you mean something like this?
It's actually pretty sane, a slightly modded White Knight does the job pretty well.

There is that... Of course, Marines are not generally know as Barely Trained, so.....

Love me a custom modified Super Warhawk and the Hawkeye PQ in combination. Have a Ganger with that setup, and yes, very scary.

What's this Hawkeye PQ?
What's it do?

Hawkeye is a 5BP positive quality that when taken reduces the penalties for range increments by one category. That means that your penalties are 0/0/-1/-3 instead of 0/-1/-3/-6 while an improved range finder has penalties of 0/0/-2/-5. The downsize is that you lose the benefit of Hawkeye when using image magnification, which is not a huge issue since the major benefit to image magnification is being able to take aim to eliminate range penalties.

You have to have natural eyes to take it and it also gives you +1 perception when looking at things that are far away.

I still wonder if Improved Range finder is compatible with hawkeye which would make the penalties 0/0/0/-2...

Ah, so it's a Bio Version of the Optic Enhancement Cyber-Then?
And why do people use it with Pea-Shooters instead of Shotguns?

It's not a bioware. It's a natural trait. I'm not aware of any bit of cyberware in SR4 that replicates what a hawkeye does (except for imp range finder which is not as good).

Because they use pistols. The effect is, obviously, most prevalent and great with short range pistols and shotguns. It's also ridiculously good for throwing weapons when coupled with a good strength. It's basically good with everything but you need to be able to take advantage of having the no penalty range. So with assault rifle or sport rifle ranges it really starts to get good for vehicle chase combat where the longer distances are more common.

Ah, so the Magnification from Sr3 did not make it to SR4 then?
Because SR3 had 2 kinds of VisMag. One Electronic and one Optic from Level 1 to 3 and each level made one bracket of Distance go away.

It is there, you just have to use a Free Action to implemenmt it.

Simple action. Not everyone has Krav maga and you only get 1 free action per IP.

In SR4, if you have vision magnification you can use a simple action to take aim to eliminate range penalties.

Duh... You are correct sir...
I really hate the Krav maga Bonus, but so many people have it it apprently has stuck in my mind.

Mmmhmm. I think Hawkeye significantly diminishes the primary use of Krav Maga. They cost the same amount of BP and taking aim to eliminate penalties only really becomes valuable at the extreme range (a -1 for long range should be tolerable). Essentially, Hawkeye is vastly more efficient from an action economy standpoint unless you are consistently engaging at extreme ranges. With Hawkeye, Krav Maga mostly just gives you +1 die on one of your two attacks each round so it's probably really good for multi-targeting since it offsets half of the changing targets penalty. It's a nice bonus but I'm not sure it's worth 5BP at that point.

That looks like Svetlana!Well, compared to the Canadian Armed Forces...

Well, Yes, Of Course...

I hate coming late to the party but a great deal of this has to do with the way a weapon is used. In WW2 the basic American sniper rifle was the Springfield- which had been the basic rifle in the first world war. In the same war the British used their standard SMLE Enfield with a scope as a sniper rifle, wiothout a scope as the basic infantry rifle.

Have you ever seen the film footage the army made to justifiy replacing Springfields with Garands? They had two men side by side each with one of the rifles, firing at a traget, and while the guy with the Garand was just firing straight at the target with his amazing weapon, the guy with the Springfield was firing it as awkwardly as possible, taking his rifle off line to work the bolt between each shot.

The Sniper SMLEs were custom made for sniping, from what I understand. Holland and Holland did a lot of them, apparently. More work went into them, essentially like a "Match Grade" firearm today.

But, yes, the basic rifle design was the same.

There are very few "sniper rifles" that are not basically identical to a "sporting rifle" or "machine gun" in terms of everything but accuracy and possibly the lack of a belt feed. The only calibers that come to mind as being essentially specially designed for sniper rifles are the .408 CheyTac and .338 Lapua Magnum. I have no idea what genus at CGL decided that the same round fired from two different guns has magically better properties from one gun then the other.

Cinematic gun rules. In my experience, it would be more realistic to have running battles screw with the accuracy of anything with a scope, and perhaps a plateau of -2 penalty for random other misalignment, barring a glitch somewhere. Other added realism would be bullet price varying by caliber, a strength/body test to quickly get back onto target for weapons that fire more powerful rounds, etc.

All of which get in the way of having fun breaking into secure complexes, shooting up security, grabbing the target, GTFO, shooting out in a car chase with Lone Star, meet the Johnson, get backstabbed by the Johnson, revenge on the Johnson, then crashing in a safe-house to bandage easily-recovered-from 'shoulder wounds' and popping the tab on a cheap SoyBeer Lite.

That said, I have a character concept for a gunbunny who has a habit of correcting the usage of firearms terms, etc.

I've suggested calibers.

I was severely beaten.

I LOVE the .338 Lapua...