QUOTE (CanRay @ Oct 1 2012, 12:01 PM) 
I've suggested calibers.
I was severely beaten.
I was severely beaten.
Severely is the wrong terminology. If I remember correctly, the beating was Mercilessly given.
Full Version: Sports rifles v Sniper rifles
Severely is the wrong terminology. If I remember correctly, the beating was Mercilessly given.
QUOTE (CanRay @ Oct 1 2012, 01:01 PM)
I've suggested calibers.
I was severely beaten.
I was severely beaten.
I played shadowrun with calibers before. It actually worked fine. Never got the pricing formulas for build your own gun based on caliber exactly right though.
QUOTE (kzt @ Oct 1 2012, 02:03 AM)
I have no idea what genus at CGL decided that the same round fired from two different guns has magically better properties from one gun then the other.
IIRC, it's a holdover from FASA days.QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 1 2012, 01:04 PM)
Severely is the wrong terminology. If I remember correctly, the beating was Mercilessly given.
So that's what you call being beaten with your own cane.
QUOTE (CanRay @ Oct 1 2012, 12:56 PM)
So that's what you call being beaten with your own cane.
Indeed...
QUOTE (CanRay @ Oct 1 2012, 02:55 PM)
IIRC, it's a holdover from FASA days.
Yeah, even in 1st edition it was pretty clear a lot of the folks writing the firearms sections had no real experience with them in real life, outside of seeing them in movies.
-k
Sooooooooooooooooooo, who is going to pony up some range time for me to fix that problem? 
Well one could hire a professional armorer and all-around gun professional like Michael Z. Williamson (if Catalyst doesn't want to hire Dumpshockers with the required gun resume's).
QUOTE (nylanfs @ Oct 1 2012, 09:42 PM)
Well one could hire a professional armorer and all-around gun professional like Michael Z. Williamson (if Catalyst doesn't want to hire Dumpshockers with the required gun resume's).
There are several of us with plenty of range time. The issue isn't ignorance, it's a matter of how much the developers want to let realism in, versus how much they'd have to complicate and/or retcon the firearms the setting's already got for matters of continuity, simplicity, game balance, yadda yadda yadda.
You don't really want realism in an TTRPG, you want verisimilitude. When modeling a real-life phenomena it needs to "feel right" and not be obviously stupid to people who know something about the subject, while also not being overly complex. It's also very helpful to verisimilitude if the people involved in writing the rules and the developer know how to use a dictionary so words like "velocity" don't get used in ways that are obviously incorrect.
QUOTE (kzt @ Oct 2 2012, 02:59 AM)
developer know how to use a dictionary so words like "velocity" don't get used in ways that are obviously incorrect.
Oh? Do tell the story of this one.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Oct 2 2012, 06:20 AM)
Oh? Do tell the story of this one.
Not much of a story really. Arsenal. High Velocity weapon mod....How does making the bullets travel at a higher velocity make the gun fire more rounds per minute?
QUOTE (ZeroPoint @ Oct 2 2012, 08:13 AM)
Not much of a story really. Arsenal. High Velocity weapon mod....How does making the bullets travel at a higher velocity make the gun fire more rounds per minute?
Given that the game mechanic called Acceleration is actually a velocity, are you surprised that Velocity is used to represent a cyclic rate?
"Velocity" in the context of firearm design usually refers to muzzle velocity, but from a physical and engineering point of view, a higher cyclic rate requires the bolt to achieve a higher velocity with an identical source of energy (since the ammo used remains the same). So it's not completely wrong. Just a bizarre wording.
QUOTE (Nath @ Oct 2 2012, 11:55 AM)
"Velocity" in the context of firearm design usually refers to muzzle velocity, but from a physical and engineering point of view, a higher cyclic rate requires the bolt to achieve a higher velocity with an identical source of energy (since the ammo used remains the same). So it's not completely wrong. Just a bizarre wording.
Well, it would require a higher acceleration to clear the chamber faster to allow for the next round to be loaded faster and a higher acceleration for an identical distance would result in a higher velocity. Whether or not the increased acceleration/velocity would cause a significant and noticeable effect on fire rate is a reasonable question.
QUOTE (ZeroPoint @ Oct 2 2012, 08:13 AM)
Not much of a story really. Arsenal. High Velocity weapon mod....How does making the bullets travel at a higher velocity make the gun fire more rounds per minute?
Which is a good example of what I mean, when I talk about how much we want to retcon/change stuff -- that's not actually a weapon mod from Arsenal, or rather that weapon mod isn't where the "high velocity" term first came about.
"High velocity" has been a weapon descriptor since Fields of Fire, back in the glory days, '94 or so. The Ares High Velocity Assault Rifle coined the term, in one of the best (and most popular) Shadowrun books ever written...so when, exactly, do we overrule that? What book do we publish where we call out that name for being stupid, and talk about what a big mistake Tom Dowd made when he called it that?
That's the conundrum. It's not that writers don't know (or care) about guns. It's that realism, in this game, has to ride bitch in the backseat, constantly getting elbowed by consistency and canon, while fun rides shotgun and game balance tries to keep the car on the road.
actually, where does it say that the high velocity mod increases bullet speed?
i think it always was just for increasing fire-speed, not bullet velocity right?
otherwise, it would up damage and ap correct?
i think it always was just for increasing fire-speed, not bullet velocity right?
otherwise, it would up damage and ap correct?
QUOTE (ZeroPoint @ Oct 2 2012, 08:13 AM)
Not much of a story really. Arsenal. High Velocity weapon mod....How does making the bullets travel at a higher velocity make the gun fire more rounds per minute?
Marketing.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 2 2012, 12:04 PM)
actually, where does it say that the high velocity mod increases bullet speed?
i think it always was just for increasing fire-speed, not bullet velocity right?
otherwise, it would up damage and ap correct?
i think it always was just for increasing fire-speed, not bullet velocity right?
otherwise, it would up damage and ap correct?
Thats exactly what i mean. it increases fire rate, not velocity..or else most weapons would have higher damage/AP instead of actually having a lower DV/ap like most of the off the shelf HV weapons do. Compare the Ares HVAR (assault rifle with High velocity in arsenal) to all other assault rifles. It has DV 5 and 0 AP. all other assault rifles have 6DV -1 AP.
Or the Ingram Supermach (SMG with HV mod) that has DV 4 while all other SMGs have DV 5.
If the rounds have a higher muzzle velocity why are they doing less damage?
But Critias may have the right of it. Even if they did know that it was a misnomer (which i doubt), they would have left it anyway to stick with canon.
Oooh ... Critias knows his stuff. The HVAR is pretty old. However, it was actually a high muzzle velocity weapon (AND high cycling rate). Per the description, it fired smaller caliber rounds faster, and also fired more of them.
Actually, none of the books that describe the HVAR mention the said high velocity is muzzle velocity. It's a guess from context.
QUOTE
Fields of Fire, page 34
ARES HIGH-VELOCITY ASSAULT RIFLE
At last-the assault rifle that fires as fast as a super-machinegun! Ares Arms' latest assault rifle combines the top performance you expect from Ares with minigun firing rates for a rock-and-roll beyond the pale and beyond belief!
The Ares Arms HVAR comes with patented Smartlink Level II™ technology that provides outstanding basic targeting and compensation algorithms designed to compensate for the weapon's unique features. The weapon package includes integral recoil reduction systems that offer enhanced stability even in full-fire mode! Suppression or covering fire with the HVAR lets the opposition know you mean business!
The Ares HVAR fires Light Pistol rounds. In burst mode it fires six-round bursts that do 12D damage at a maximum autofire rate of 15 rounds. The weapons comes with an integrated Smartlink II that offers the equivalent of 3 points of Recoil Reduction; apply recoil modifiers as for normal weapons. The HVAR accepts under-barrel and top-mounted accessories.
>>>>>>(Now we're talking. I was working down in South America (won't say where) not long ago, when I got to use my HVAR. Laid myself down a cover screen so tight I was popping caps as soon as the hopped up. Nasty work, chummers, but I get paid well to do it.)<<<<<<
- Whisper (02:30:20/9-26-54)
>>>>>>(Ya know, Whisper, I looked at the ballistic files on the HVAR after reading your comment about penetration. I got bad news for you: The HVAR don't penetrate much better than the SuperMach 100 you chucked a couple of screens back.)<<<<<<
- Steel Lynx (21:32:30/10-02-54)
>>>>>>(You looking for trouble, Lynx? Want to start something? Everywhere I look, I find you cracking on me. You wanna play, we'll play, but by my rules.)<<<<<<
- Whisper (03:03:20/10-03-54)
>>>>>>(Guess Morocco did wreck you after all.)<<<<<<
- Steel Lynx (10:20:14/10-05-54)
ARES HIGH-VELOCITY ASSAULT RIFLE
At last-the assault rifle that fires as fast as a super-machinegun! Ares Arms' latest assault rifle combines the top performance you expect from Ares with minigun firing rates for a rock-and-roll beyond the pale and beyond belief!
The Ares Arms HVAR comes with patented Smartlink Level II™ technology that provides outstanding basic targeting and compensation algorithms designed to compensate for the weapon's unique features. The weapon package includes integral recoil reduction systems that offer enhanced stability even in full-fire mode! Suppression or covering fire with the HVAR lets the opposition know you mean business!
The Ares HVAR fires Light Pistol rounds. In burst mode it fires six-round bursts that do 12D damage at a maximum autofire rate of 15 rounds. The weapons comes with an integrated Smartlink II that offers the equivalent of 3 points of Recoil Reduction; apply recoil modifiers as for normal weapons. The HVAR accepts under-barrel and top-mounted accessories.
>>>>>>(Now we're talking. I was working down in South America (won't say where) not long ago, when I got to use my HVAR. Laid myself down a cover screen so tight I was popping caps as soon as the hopped up. Nasty work, chummers, but I get paid well to do it.)<<<<<<
- Whisper (02:30:20/9-26-54)
>>>>>>(Ya know, Whisper, I looked at the ballistic files on the HVAR after reading your comment about penetration. I got bad news for you: The HVAR don't penetrate much better than the SuperMach 100 you chucked a couple of screens back.)<<<<<<
- Steel Lynx (21:32:30/10-02-54)
>>>>>>(You looking for trouble, Lynx? Want to start something? Everywhere I look, I find you cracking on me. You wanna play, we'll play, but by my rules.)<<<<<<
- Whisper (03:03:20/10-03-54)
>>>>>>(Guess Morocco did wreck you after all.)<<<<<<
- Steel Lynx (10:20:14/10-05-54)
QUOTE
Cannon Companion, page 22
Ares HVAR
This high-velocity assault rifle earns a "super machine gun" label for its high rate of fire. Specially designed to incorporate an internal smartlink-2 system, the engineering also provides 3 points of recoil compensation. This weapon cannot accept barrel-mounted accessories.
In burst-fire mode, the HVAR fires 6-round bursts that inflict 12D damage. These bursts suffer recoil for each bullet in the same way as standard bursts; a single burst incurs a recoil modifier of +6 (+3 with compensation), a second burst in the same Combat Phase would suffer +12 (+9).
In full-auto mode, the HVAR fires at a maximum rate of 18 rounds per phase. This autofire can be directed in bursts at more than one target, but at least 6 rounds must be fired in each autofire bursts (see p. 115, SR3).
Ares HVAR
This high-velocity assault rifle earns a "super machine gun" label for its high rate of fire. Specially designed to incorporate an internal smartlink-2 system, the engineering also provides 3 points of recoil compensation. This weapon cannot accept barrel-mounted accessories.
In burst-fire mode, the HVAR fires 6-round bursts that inflict 12D damage. These bursts suffer recoil for each bullet in the same way as standard bursts; a single burst incurs a recoil modifier of +6 (+3 with compensation), a second burst in the same Combat Phase would suffer +12 (+9).
In full-auto mode, the HVAR fires at a maximum rate of 18 rounds per phase. This autofire can be directed in bursts at more than one target, but at least 6 rounds must be fired in each autofire bursts (see p. 115, SR3).
QUOTE
Arsenal, page 26
Tech Profile: High-Velocity Weapons
These special firearms (also called super machine guns) have a very high rate of fire, using specially designed barrels and cartridges to prevent overheating and excessive recoil. Only submachine guns and assault rifles can be constructed as high-velocity weapons.
When fired in full-auto mode, high-velocity weapons can only fire long bursts or full bursts (see Full-Auto Mode, p. 143, SR4). Unlike normal firearms, high-velocity weapons can fire two long bursts in a single Action Phase. All other rules for firing long bursts apply as noted on p. 143, SR4.
When used to fire full bursts, high-velocity weapons use 12 bullets instead of 10 and thus impose a –11 dice pool modifier instead of –9. When used to fire narrow bursts, a +11 DV modifier to the attack applies, while a wide burst applies a –11 dice pool modifier to the defender’s dice pool. When used to attack multiple targets, a high-velocity weapon can attack two targets with two long bursts, three targets with one long and two short bursts, or four targets with four short bursts (using a full burst to attack multiple targets is the only legal way to fire short bursts with a high-velocity weapon). All other rules for full bursts, as described on p. 144, SR4, apply. The rules for Suppressive Fire (see p. 144, SR4) remain unchanged.
Ares HVAR: The Ares HVAR (“high-velocity assault rifle”) is another example of high-velocity weapons (see sidebar, above), trading large calibers for a high rate of fire.
In addition to the special recoil-reduction design common to all Ares high-velocity weapons, providing 3 points of recoil compensation, the Ares HVAR includes an internal smartgun system and a rigid stock with shock pad. It cannot be equipped with barrel- or underbarrel-mounted accessories
Arsenal, page 152
High Velocity (Full Auto-Capable Weapons Only): This turns the firearm into a high velocity weapon (see High-Velocity Weapons, p. 26).
Tech Profile: High-Velocity Weapons
These special firearms (also called super machine guns) have a very high rate of fire, using specially designed barrels and cartridges to prevent overheating and excessive recoil. Only submachine guns and assault rifles can be constructed as high-velocity weapons.
When fired in full-auto mode, high-velocity weapons can only fire long bursts or full bursts (see Full-Auto Mode, p. 143, SR4). Unlike normal firearms, high-velocity weapons can fire two long bursts in a single Action Phase. All other rules for firing long bursts apply as noted on p. 143, SR4.
When used to fire full bursts, high-velocity weapons use 12 bullets instead of 10 and thus impose a –11 dice pool modifier instead of –9. When used to fire narrow bursts, a +11 DV modifier to the attack applies, while a wide burst applies a –11 dice pool modifier to the defender’s dice pool. When used to attack multiple targets, a high-velocity weapon can attack two targets with two long bursts, three targets with one long and two short bursts, or four targets with four short bursts (using a full burst to attack multiple targets is the only legal way to fire short bursts with a high-velocity weapon). All other rules for full bursts, as described on p. 144, SR4, apply. The rules for Suppressive Fire (see p. 144, SR4) remain unchanged.
Ares HVAR: The Ares HVAR (“high-velocity assault rifle”) is another example of high-velocity weapons (see sidebar, above), trading large calibers for a high rate of fire.
In addition to the special recoil-reduction design common to all Ares high-velocity weapons, providing 3 points of recoil compensation, the Ares HVAR includes an internal smartgun system and a rigid stock with shock pad. It cannot be equipped with barrel- or underbarrel-mounted accessories
Arsenal, page 152
High Velocity (Full Auto-Capable Weapons Only): This turns the firearm into a high velocity weapon (see High-Velocity Weapons, p. 26).
oh it actually got nerfed i see O.o
only 12 (two more) bullets instead of 18(8 more)
only 12 (two more) bullets instead of 18(8 more)
I guess I have to eat my words
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 2 2012, 10:24 PM)
oh it actually got nerfed i see O.o
only 12 (two more) bullets instead of 18(8 more)
only 12 (two more) bullets instead of 18(8 more)
Well, at least they nerfed SOMETHING from older books.
Unlike the Slivergun that went from:
Light Pistol with Heavy Pistol ranges BF Flechettes
To
Heavy Pistol with BF Flechettes with boosted damage.
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