Martial arts doesn't give too much of an edge (up to +3 unarmed vs. up to +2 edged), and bone lacing and/or cyberlimbs don't, either (generally +2 or +3). Although at this point, a fist is still doing the same base damage as a claymore sword.

Where unarmed damage starts to really pull away is from critical strike (which most unarmed adepts will get at their Magic rating) and elemental strike (which basically halves impact armor according to most interpretations, in addition to other potential effects).

So take an adept, and give him bone density augmentation: 4 and three levels of martial arts for +6 to his base damage. That's about as good as it gets without magic.

Assuming a Magic that has been reduced down to 4, add 4 points of critical strike, as well as killing hands and elemental strike. Now that adept is doing +10 to his base damage, and halving his opponent's impact armor. And with initiations, that will continue to improve.

Personally, seeing how they have capped both power throw and kinesics at rating: 3, I am surprised that they have not done something similar with critical strike.

I was surprised as well.

You know, there's an easy way to handle the situation.

Rip an arm off an enemy, and use it to beat people with. See, you're still using a bare fist, thus it's unarmed combat.

Unless that arm belongs to a Bear Shapeshifter - then you're exercising your right to Bear arms.

lol, I am going to be honest, I didnt expect this thread to get this big lol. never underestimate teh forums!

No, I'm pretty sure that you are armed....

What about if you rip off both their arms and swing them around?

Then you even wield two arms.

Using Chummer I threw together a basic look at an unarmed Adept & a sword Adept, The Sword Adept using a Nodachi, The unarmed adept using no weapons, they are both using nothing cyber, All Powers were Geas'd & both have 3 powers lowered by Way of the Warrior. Both assume 20 BP for Nuyen, no Negative qualities (as such, with at least 95 BP remaining on both, both builds are viable as reasonable* starting level characters). Both were limited to 1 Variation of each Martial Arts Style for simplicity.

Both: Human Adept, Str base: 6, Agi Base 5, Skill base 6, 400BP build

Unarmed Adept:
Powers: Critical Strike 6, IPA(Str) 3, IPA(Agi) 1, ICA(Unarmed) 3, Killing hands, Counterstrike 2, Penetrating Strike 2
Weapon: None
Martial Arts: Boxing 1, Muay Thai 2 (Combined +3 DV for Unarmed Combat attacks)
Other Expenses: Adept 5bp(PQ) Way of the Warrior 10bp (PQ)
Dice Pool: 17 Damage 14P AP-2 When Counterstrike is active: 19DP

Sword Adept:
Powers: IPA(Str) 3, IPA(Agi) 2, ICA(Blades) 3, Counterstrike 6
Weapons: Nodachi (Personalized Grip, Weapon Focus Rating 4)
Martial Arts: Arnis De Mano 1, Ars Cybernetica 1 (Combined +2 DV for Blades)
Other Expenses: Adept 5bp(PQ) Way of the Warrior 10bp (PQ), Restricted Gear Rating 1 5bp(PQ), 9BP spent on Weapon
Dice Pool: 27 Damage 11P AP-2 When Counterstrike is active: 33DP

This is just a quick example to give people a basic idea of the difference between the 2, yes some choices could be different, both have used up a full 6 Points of PP for these builds.

*Reasonable is an arbitrary comment, every GM may have his own idea of how reasonable either of these builds are.

Sorry, I should have been more clear - you're supposed to be swinging the rest of them, not the arms you've ripped off.

I also consider hardliner gloves to be a "weapon" as per their listing in the gear section, and therefore incompatible with adept powers such as Critical Strike. The argument of "it's only one extra die" works both ways. Given that bone lacing and bone density augmentation change your unarmed damage rating by making your fists harder, common-sensically I do not allow hardliner gloves to stack with these either.

If truth were told I don't thematically like the idea of Critical Strike etc combining with bone lacing/density augmentation, but given the argument that 'ware has been paid for by Essence and therefore is part of you, there is nothing much I can do about this ... and at the end of the day, the "unarmed adept of death" is not the flavour of munchkin I am so worried about as a GM.

Like Cabral et al, I consider Unarmed Combat to cover fighting with both hands (and depending on the character and the way he learned his skill, feet and knees as appropriate), so no two weapon-style and Unarmed Combat for me either, whether you are using hardliner gloves or not. And yes, this means a "hardliner gloves" weapon focus consists of a pair of gloves not an individual glove.

@Dolanar: You may want to mention the BP expenditure for both builds. A rating 4 personalized no-dachi does not have a negligible cost.

+DVB bonuses from Martial arts are capped at +3DV as per errata. On the other hand for nearly any skill you can reach that cap by using more than one of the martial arts that give the same bonuses, like ars cybernetica and sangre y acero.

Both were done with a simple 400BP build, I didn't mention the full build as I did not use all of the BP on each assumed 20BP for Nuyen. This was simply a look at the combat ability of each, all stats are identical, they both have about 60bp remaining with the possibility of +35 for negative qualities

I will modify the example to reflect only the +3, I also limited each to 1 variation of a particular Martial Art for simplicity. My second Printing of the Arsenal book didn't have any mention of a cap, So thank you for that information Dakka Dakka.

Dakka Dakka, you can only get the full +3 DV for unarmed. Blades get only +2 DV and Clubs only get +1 DV in total. This, btw, is a fact that i really do not like. While the entire Martial Arts section doesn't seem thought through at all, this just seems totally random.

Dolanar, no one uses Improved Physical Attribute for a reason, which makes that part of the characters kind of a moot point, but nevermind
Also, for the sword fighter i only get to 25 dice, if I'm not mistaken: 5 agi + 2 imp agi + 6 skill + 3 imp skill + 2 spec + 2 range + 4 focus + 1 grip (correct me if I'm wrong)

Basically, we can leave out everything that both characters can get, like strength and skill and counterstrike. In the end, what remains to be compared is this (after some work, money and karma in game; i don't want to adress the investment needed in detail here):

Unarmed:
* half / total armor negation via elemental strike
* -3 AP via penetrating strike
* +3 DV from martial arts
* an UNCAPPED bonus to DV through critical strike, starting at 6 and only getting better from there
* with distance strike, defender only get to roll reaction instead of reaction + skill (this is what the power is there for, not the actual distance)
* ability to do subdual combat if needed
* no chance to ever be without a weapon

Sword (Clubs are strictly inferior for strength based damage and only useful for stun batons):
* -2 AP from weapon
* +2 DV from martial arts
* +4 DV from weapon
* +6 dice from weapon focus (are foci capped at 6? i think so. or are their "military grade" foci available at higher levels? I'm not sure right now.)
* +2 dice from reach
* +1 dice from personalized grip
* with two-weapon fighting, the ability to go on full defense while still attacking with the other hand (if used, you can only wield a one handed weapon, which means one less DV and Ap)
* need to carry around a highly valuable, distinctive and sought after sword at all times

I think those are all the major differences between the two builds, but feel free to add any if I forgot something.

If we compare those, it becomes clear that in terms of raw DV and AP unarmed is the clear and undisputed winner. (Especially the uncapped critical strike is a problem here, I would strongly suggest capping it at 3, that would make it WAY more even, and would be in line with other powers like kinesics and enhanced throwing power). The Sword wielder on the other hand will always have 9 more dice available through reach, grip and foci bonus. In terms of 'special abilities', it turns out that unarmed is more of an offensive ability with distance strike while armed is more useful for defense through two-weapon fighting.

What strikes the eye is that the sword adept basically doesn't use any adept powers. That makes sense, because there are ARE no melee-weapon centered powers in the books at all. The only reason he has a magic attribute is the ability to use a weapon focus, aside from that he could be nearly mundane. An effective Magic attribute of 1 is totally enough for him (with that he would get improved ability (blades) at level 2, the only two dice he cannot get the with ware and needs to be on the same level the unarmed adept is; the last skill point would be obtained through reflex recorder (blades)). So the sword adept could be built using mainly ware, and thus is restricted by nuyen, while the unarmed adept is dependent on karma. It's also generally cheaper to go the sword route in terms of ressources, you mainly need your weapon, 2 martial arts, one maneuver and that's it.


What you make of this is of course yours to decide. I personally think that without two-weapon fighting the sword way would be strictly inferior to unarmed. And it is debatable if one little feat costing 4 Karma should have such a dramatic, major influence on the mechanics of the game.

Are you considered armed if you rip off both of your own arms and swing them around?

Are you considered armed, unarmed, or disarmed?

all of the above.

25 sounds accurate, was getting late & I could have missed something being automatically added in for chummer, as for "no one uses IPA" why would that be? I personally use it on my active character, sure its expensive PP wise, but I don't see many other options without taking some serious Essence hits.

Ohhhhhhhh, that was bad... *hangs head in shame for having read it*

No, Foci are not relegated to a Cap of 6. It is capped at what you can afford (in both Money and Karma). Harlequin has a Rating 15 Sword Focus.

aren't foci limited kinda by your magic attribute somehow?

This is not true.
So you could indeed get +3DV in all three close combat skills. A couple of examples:
Blades: +1DV Sangre y Acero, +1DV Eztlitzli, +1DV Ars Cybernetica
Clubs: +1DV Arnis de Mano, +1DV Escrima, +1DV Kali
Unarmed: +2DV Boxing, +1DV Musti Yudha.

This is not for Unarmed Combat alone. Subdual Combat is restricted to Melee Combat not to unarmed Combat. So you can subdue someone with melee weapons as well.

If I remember the rules for subdual combat correctly, it can be initiated by melee combat. It is maintained with unarmed combat.

Yes, but since a Magician has an unlimited cap on magic, their Foci are also unlimited in power. Just takes time and resources.

Ah, that again, i see.

Well, there is no cap on Foci in the Main book as far as I know, that is only added with Street Magic. *shrug*

So a Force 12 Weapon Foci requires 120,000 nuyen plus the karma of initiating six times and raising magic six times assuming you start with 6 magic but I guess we can safely assume 5 magic starting off since "everyone" gets cybereyes. So it's 120,000 nuyen, 154 karma for initiating 7 times, and 325 karma for raising magic 7 times.

Well, you CAN get a Force 12 Focus with a 6 Magic, since you are restricted to twice your Magic Rating in Foci, if I remember correctly.
SO just 120,000 Nuyen and 36 Karma?

You mean in active foci, right? So there's no limitation on the individual foci's force aside from that cap. Though I guess if you want to dual wield F12 weapon foci you would need 12 magic.

Indeed... Who Dual wields Force 12 Weapon Foci, though? Way too Karma Intensive, in my book.

SR4A includes the limit, I believe on page 199, but I'm away from my book. There is no limit, that I remember seeing on an individual focus' rating, but the total rating is limited to magic x 5. So after character generation, a character could technically get/create and bond a rating 30 weapon focus. Now, I have no idea what the actual odds are of creating or finding something that obscene.

Nope, only improving the grip strangely requires an AGI+Unarmed Combat roll. For everything else the whole close combat group is fine. I think all three skills should also be used to improver the grip.

OK, two adepts: Troll and Dwarf.

Is a Fastball Special a Unarmed Attack?

At first:
No, it's thrown weapon improvised meter human body.
THEN:
Yes, a dorf that does NOT respond to the name HAPPY is on you and blaming you.

There you go... Magic x 5. *whew*

I meant that improving was maintaining. Poor choice of words on my part.

There's a cheesy way around this, but it's frowned upon even by me.

Its simple: Every martial art style listed(except the VERY obscure ones) has similiar but different styles that use the same rules.
Nobody ever uses their names when discussing the martial art rules, because using the first listed one is just easier and common practice. AKA the "okay, remind me which the fuck style is hwarang-do, again?" effect.

They're still there, though.
So you could, if you really wanted to, take Arnis De Mano, Escrima, and Kali and end up with +3 blades DV. And then do the same with Sangre Y Acero for +3 more.

Unfortunately, the dumbness comes in when you use the same trick to take already GOOD bonuses multiple times.
+3 gymdodge? +3 on all charging attacks? +3 dice pool modifier(added after the split) when attacking multiple targets?(this splits your dice pool)
Yes please.

That was a little late. Look at this post

I don't consider combining Krav Maga with ROSS and Hasidut any more cheesy than combining Firefight with any one of the aforementioned three.

Talking about Martial Arts rules being dumb as hell. They have obviously been written by someone with no understanding for the system at all.

The styles don't always match the benefits very well - stick fighting styles lumped in with boxing, hapkido (which uses holds and joint locks more) being lumped in with taekwondo, etc. I think it would have been better, in this case, if the fluff and crunch had been separated. In other words, maybe a page or two describing some different styles, then a master list of advantages, capped at different levels, that you can take when you get a level of the martial arts quality - the maneuvers are already not tied down to any particular style; they just need to treat martial arts advantages the same way.

Exactly how it should be, Glyph. It would be simpler and better, I really don't know why the writers made up that mess in the first place.

Because it is simple and it works.

Until Monday, I didn't realize that bone lacing also granted a damage bonus because of how horribly written the rules are.

WHY DO I NEED TO GO TO THE COMBAT SECTION TO GET THE DAMAGE CODE FOR AN AUGMENT I'M CHOOSING?!

I'm pretty sure that it's in the gear table on the appropriate page and in the implant description in augmentation and/or SR4A, but I would have to check.

It is in neither of those locations.

It's right there on SR4A p342, at the bottom. Right next to the prices, Ess, and avail.

So it is, but it's non-intuitive and the description of the augmentation still fails to lead someone to look for it.

I guess. I look at the tables first, then read.

It's imho not simple as it is written right now. It is confusing and convoluted at best.

Really? I have had absolutely no issues with it as written. What is so confusing and convoluted to you?

I love that after being on Dumpshock almost 10 years, I can watch the same arguments pop up now as did when I started.

I really mean no snark in this. I find it fun.