i personally, have completely given up on my uber-high-conceal holdout pistol. it's useless. from now on, unless i know i'm going someplace with high security, i'm carrying a damn Savalette.

@H of V:

When you said "4 one's" and "2 one's" for the chances of gun jam, did you mean a roll of four (or two) dice that comes up all ones or any time that 4 (or two) one's comes up the gun would/should jam?

ie. you roll six dice: 1, 1, 1, 1, 4, 14
Would that jam?

I'm not busting your chops here, I just want to be clear.

A rule would be nice so it doesn't have to feel contrived every time a jam pops up. By that logic, you don't need a system when a GM can do everything. Who needs rules at all, at that point? Just accept that the probability of gun failure is a statistical representation of operator failure that has nothing to do with the weapon or the conditions. It's not like there's any room for debate. Should GM's throw in things unexpectedly? Sure. But that's separate from SR, as a system, handling weapon failure. Because it absolutely does not.

I have to agree with Kanada Ten in that you really don't need a rule to simulate the statistical possibility of jams. It's silly micromanagement.

Please do not misunderstand me. If you read further back regarding weapon reliability, you'll find me willing to accept SR's disregard for weapon malfunction as the best approach, given that the alternative is to throw in some extra rolls before every attack, which is just a complete pain in the ass for something that I agree is not going to be worth it in most cases.

But don't misunderstand that: it is absolutely clear that with the way the rules approach critical failure as a function of purely one's skill, with no impact from the weapon fired or the conditions it is being used in or the treatment it has recieved. Critical failure, then, at least statistically, represents only skill failure. There is absolutely no room for debate on this fact. If the GM wants to call that weapon failure and not operator failure, that is, of course, his prerogitive, but let's not get two separate issue confused.

As for GM shoving weapon failure into the mix as fiat, I like it. It's a good idea. But an elegant mechanic to handle it behind the scenes would be better because then the players know it's just chance, and that's just combat. Is it the best way to handle it short of mechanics (which, as previously mentioned, are not going to cut it with the system as designed)? Pretty much. But don't rely on dice rolls that statistically reflect only skill failure. That's just completely flawed.

And maybe, while you're at it, you can try and not rip out my throat?

Of course it can mean anything. As the GM, it is your right, if you so wish, to drop orbital bombardments of cattle on your players when the roll all ones on their weapons rolls, but this does not make rolling all ones in any way representative of one's chances of experiencing an orbital bovine artillery bombardment. To say that the numbers, in and of themselves, without the GM's tampering and redirection, represent something they clearly do not, makes no sense. The example of picking up a poorly maintained gun and having it magically become perfectly maintained is enough to definitively prove this. If you then go on and decide to use that bad roll to represent weapon malfunction, go ahead, but that's not what the numbers statistically represent. Same deal for the floor caving in under you in melee: do it if you like, but since you are only rolling skill, the numbers represent nothing but skill failure if they come up 1s.

... annnnnyway...

Typically, I play a magic-type, so casual strolls around the city don't require much. A light pistol, if my character feels it's going to be a rough day.

Other types might pack a medium pistol, just for better takedown of the larger calibers.

Clothing is just normal street clothes and an armor jacket w/ plates or Secure Longcoat, depending on weather and what he might run into.

Reminds me of the guy I used to play with who wanted his skimpy decker character to have a Savalette Guardian on each forarm in slide holsters up the sleeves of jacket...

I don't think ever grasped the size of a Guardian...heh...

Mcb: Yes, WW2 firearms were still very reliable. Evenso, they were lesso than many firearms today. And when we bring in full-automatic fire, it's clear that many of them were not excellent. Many were. The MG42 for example, is still used with the Bundeswher, if I'm not mistaken. Garands are excellent rifles. Mauser Kar98s are excellent. And then you have Sten guns, MP40s and StG44.

Today, you have well made firearms, and shitty cheap knock-offs. And many of these knock-offs use inferior materials in parts of their firearms. Quality has more to do with reliability than anything else. But it's ridiculous to think about that in shadorun.

Agreed Gotti

mcb

That was quick.

What does your character keep near him when he's sleeping, showering, shitting, etc. Do you stay armed all the time, or not?

Heh. Having experienced a week of paranoia, I would say most of my characters routinely carry a weapon of some sort either on their person or within easy reach on a daily basis.

This includes the three "s's" -- showering, shaving and personal toiletry needs.

-Siege

Gees, you guys carry an armory round with you. Most of my PCs carry a light pistol and a cell phone. If they are serious gun bunnys its a pred clone.
The trunk of a car? Well thats a very different story...

'Carry' a phone? Who carries them? That is what your head is for, quick bit of brain surgery and suddenly you have no problems with leaving it in your other coat...

It's paranoia. Most of my characters have atleast fucked atleast onething up. Be it making enemies among local gangs, enemies of a corporate exec, or the mob. Or the fucking police. So I carry enough to back my self up.

My characters and the ones in the same campaign as me have always adhered to the 'Hope for the best, prepare for the worst' philosophy. We truck around just about anything and everything we can possibly get away with. You never can tell.

One of the neat things about the char who has the Slivergun on person and the dart+Hk227S at home was his very fatalistic attitude about his life.
Acording to background his home was searched several times with no ill effect(he still doesn't know what they were looking for) and he never carries when meeting with Johnsons.
The gun is protection from the local thugs, if someone wants the char dead there is very little he can do to stop a snipers bullet

Strangely enough, the character I am using at the moment seems to be in the process of "evolving" into a gun bunny.

He started out with only a telescoping staff to his name - strange, as he is a PhysAd with Killing Hands(M) - which would be "concealed" in a long "sheath" stitched into the lined coat he wore. However, since he started getting into firefights and had to learn how to use a gun (he started off at Pistols:2 and Shotguns:1 to represent a passing familiarity from his ganger days) he's started to get a bit trigger happy. He collects them from fallen guards with no intention of ever using them. There are things he's after from a "firearm ambition" point of view, but currently he's got a Max-Power and a Walther Palm Pistol for daily carriage. Also high on the carry list are a pager, smokes, a Zippo™ lighter of sentimental value and as many sweets and candy bars as he can stuff into his pockets. All other weapons are stashed at the safehouse for later use (along with some grenades bought for a run that were never used - hey, do they have a shelf life?) Next on teh wish list is an Armtech MGL6 and a SPAS-22... Muahahahaha!

if you only carry a light pistol and cellphone then you:

1. are just starting out in your glorious life of crime

2. are completely naive and possibly suicidal

3. are a mage/decker

4. if your not #1 there is something wrong because you obviously don't have nearly enough people who want to see you killed.

anyone who can't get by on wits alone on a day-to-day basis isn't worthy of considering themselves a good shadowrunner. It's the amateurs that need the weapons. Professionals know that carrying a piece is just going to CAUSE trouble. And if people want you dead THAT badly, odds are they'll get it done regardless. The trick is not pissing people off that bad and letting them know you did it.

...right. because random street crime, that's just a myth propogated by weapons dealers.

No, that's no myth; that's why you don't walk around dark alleys in expensive clothes and with credsticks falling out of your pockets. Or, less ironic, that's why you keep a low profile and don't wander around with lots of expensive weapons/armor that random crimminals aren't going to want to take from you.

My dwarven medic Pierce walks around in normal clothes and a secure long coat with a Slivergun in a concealed holster. I don't expect him to get hassled much because quite simply he doesn't have anything to steal. Well, that and he has Good Rep II and anyone who messes with him will have lots and lots of hot steaming revenge piled on them from several sources.

Depending on neighborhood, in all fairness of course.

Packing anything that wouldn't get you laughed out of the local Shadowrunner bar in an A neighborhood is likely to get you molested by the Star.

Packing anything less than what some small infantry squads carry in a Z-zone is begging for that molestation.

But we all knew this, right?

So, I need more suggestions on what my female Elf Japanese stripper/sammie/sniper/covertops/et. al. should pack. We've already established that I've somehow fit twin-linked HVLMG's on her motrocycle along with the GAU-8 Avenger (all of which is Ruthenium-painted for concealability) so am I missing anything?

Grenades should have a shelf life of 5-15 years, depending on the quality and type of the grenade.

Random street crime isn't a myth propagated by arms dealers (though I HAVE been talking smack about arms dealers on this forum lately--maybe not the wisest move...)

Random street crime is a myth propogated by conservatives. There is no such thing as RANDOM crime. If you got hit, it's because you were an easy and/or rewarding mark. Carrying a gun around is just going to attract attention from the Star and anyone who is desperate enough to try to take you out for your gun (it's a 450 nuyen piece of equipment that provides a valuable service to anyone who would mug you in the first place). And anyone who tries to take your money is FAR less likely to kill you if you don't have a gun. There's simply no need, and killing you is more trouble than its worth. Unless you have a lot of cyber, I guess, but there's a whole ton of issues there that I don't think I have the lifespan to get into.

Hehe, I said TON of issues in reference to the average shadowrunners cyberware. I wish I'd intended that; then I'd be witty.

*shrug* not everybody has the opportunity to become the perfect shadowrunner. most of the people who do have that opportunity probably use it to become the perfect company man. nor is every street criminal smart enough to only go after the easy/rewarding targets--it'd be just your luck to run into the snotnosed punk who decides that today is the day he's gonna start his career as the Sixgun Bandit, holding up everybody he sees with his stolen Warhawk.

Or, for that matter, you could look like a confident badass but you're just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Crime happens, and it's not always sensible, though most of it tends to be intelligent enough to pick easy marks. But that doesn't make it a myth generated by the gun libertarian lobby.

I suppose most runners live in 'bad' areas, so the expectation is that they stay armed fairly well. I tend to have the higher-class runners. I tend to play well-off deckers who live with or close to respectable mages. Mage helps me with the magickal stuff, I do the net-stuff for their house.

What more do you need when the mage can barbecue the average ganger, even if he does get into a decent neighbourhood...?

In some respects, looking a badass will get you hassled more by people looking to pick a fight or earn face among their buddies (homies?).

To paraphrase "Ronin", a gun is a tool. And as any professional will tell you, it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Given the hectic and dangerous lives of most runners, wits will only take you so far.

And sometimes if you plan on being nosy, it helps if you have something to back your play besides snappy banter and a bad attitude.

What's the holy trinity -- "Wits, skill and equipment". Most people toss in "Luck and timing", but it throws off the trinity bit. ("Holy Trinity" -- Carrie Anne Moss in a leather miniskirt? )

Although the opposite end of the spectrum holds true -- if you walk to the corner pub carrying enough weapons and ammo to outfit a small mercenary company, you may be lacking the wit component of the holy trinity.

-Siege

Rocket-Propelled Grenade hidden in a nun's habit.

I guess the question of whether or not the game you're playing in is a gritty, dark world or not. In a truely gritty environment, you'd have to live a very boring life (out of the house 9-5, the rest of the time locked up behind closed doors or all day in an arcology or the like--actually, that one's not boring... depending on the arc) to avoid street violence.

So you're a halfer or an elf in rumpled clothes walking down the street trying to be nondescript. Got nothing of value on you? You've still got to worry about Humanis and racially motivated gangers (orks and trolls are particuarlly bad). Humans still have to worry about most gangs, since the mere fact that they are human tends to make them "easy" targets for larger, relatively unintelligent metahumans.

You can minimize the chance of trouble, but you can't prevent it 100%.

Ya know, all this talk about Savalettes make me wish for a special damage rule involving a weapon pressed against the target's belly...or maybe I'm just being violent this morning.

-Siege

Research has repeatedly shown that when a criminal believes someone may be armed they are much less likely to attempt a crime against them or in their presence. Simple fact.

Unless that criminal is a Shodowrunner....

People may be less likely to attack a person that is armed, but when they do, it they are FAR more likely to shoot first, ask questions later. If you're unarmed, and someone wants your money, they'll hold a gun to you and demand it. If you're armed, they'll kill you and take it off your body.

You guys are equating "mugging in RL" to walking the streets of the Sprawl in 2060ish.

Lets not forgot nasty paranimals, rogue spirits, corrupt cops, the Yaks, the Maf, the Soele Men, the Triads, Corp head hunters, Mercs, bounty hunters...oh yeah, and Gangs, Gangs, Gangs....