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Byrel
In SR4A, it says that people can detect concealed weapons using a perception test, applying the concealability modifiers.

My question is, what threshold do you use on the test?
FuelDrop
I think palming probably comes into play somewhere. My group would likely make it an opposed check.
Byrel
I was thinking for a nonopposed test; PC's sitting at a table and simply being observed without his knowledge.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Byrel @ Oct 20 2012, 03:22 PM) *
I was thinking for a nonopposed test; PC's sitting at a table and simply being observed without his knowledge.


Palming is to conceal the weapons better in the first place, otherwise threshold would be 1. An unskilled character is probably better off not rolling.


The GM might simply roll a Palming test for a character secretly, so he doesn't know how well concealed his weapons are.
Raiden
all weapons have a base conealabillityu modifier. light pistols get -1 or 0 heavy pistols are at 0 or +1 and so on and so forth. you could make somthing fromthis system. or do as stated above. or you could rule that he isnt hiding it.
Byrel
Well, that makes palming a lot more important than I realized, for non-pickpocketers.
Thanks!
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Byrel @ Oct 20 2012, 10:40 AM) *
Well, that makes palming a lot more important than I realized, for non-pickpocketers.
Thanks!


Or you could get the group Palmer to conceal your weapons on your person.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Oct 20 2012, 05:03 PM) *
Or you could get the group Palmer to conceal your weapons on your person.


You suddenly made me think of an old lecherous man called "The Palmer." Yesh, i can conceal it real good like miss... meh meh meh"
Lionhearted
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Oct 20 2012, 07:54 PM) *
You suddenly made me think of an old lecherous man called "The Palmer." Yesh, i can conceal it real good like miss... meh meh meh"

I was more thinking off a mother getting her kids ready for school.
"Now dear don't forget your switchblade... Tis rough times, here let me hide it for you"
kzt
It's actually very hard to spot someone carrying a small (or not so small) gun in a decent appropriate holster. Particularly if they are not moving and are used to carrying it.

Not that reality has much to do with any of the SR gun rules...
Stingray
QUOTE (kzt @ Oct 21 2012, 05:41 AM) *
It's actually very hard to spot someone carrying a small (or not so small) gun in a decent appropriate holster. Particularly if they are not moving and are used to carrying it.

Not that reality has much to do with any of the SR gun rules...

..when combining Concealed Holster, decent Palming skill and Legerdemain-speciality ( That speciality is
for hiding things under the clothing, right??), it is almost impossible to spot firearm..
Krishach
that is the point, though, isn't it? If concealment and legality was not an issue, I'd never carry less than a battle rifle or sniper rifle.
Xenefungus
Actually, that +6 perception modifier for katanas/assault rifles is not that bad at all. If you are good at palming, that won't help anybody to notice that large weapon you are carrying. RAW-shit as its best - again wink.gif
Stingray
QUOTE (Xenefungus @ Oct 21 2012, 12:30 PM) *
Actually, that +6 perception modifier for katanas/assault rifles is not that bad at all. If you are good at palming, that won't help anybody to notice that large weapon you are carrying. RAW-shit as its best - again wink.gif

..so true.. Agility 9, Palming (Legerdemain) 6 (+2), and Lined Coat/Greatcoat.. cool.gif
ShadowDragon8685
It's not all that impossible to imagine someone concealing an assault rifle or a katana (especially a katana, which is a LOT less bulky than an assault rifle,) under an enormous, bulky coat.
Lionhearted
Would a troll hiding a human sized katana in his trenchcoat get an extra modifier? Bigger coat, smaller sword
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Oct 21 2012, 06:29 PM) *
Would a troll hiding a human sized katana in his trenchcoat get an extra modifier? Bigger coat, smaller sword

Well to a troll the katana is just a knife...
Dolanar
Under the Using Perception heading of the book there are some basic thresholds based on the observability of the target etc. for instance a hidden object has a threshold of 5+
Lionhearted
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Oct 21 2012, 12:51 PM) *
Well to a troll the katana is just a knife...


Hm, the troll called weapon rack, palming expert carries around half of the teams arsenal in his trenchcoat
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Oct 21 2012, 07:09 AM) *
Hm, the troll called weapon rack, palming expert carries around half of the teams arsenal in his trenchcoat


That's not so hard to imagine if most of the contents are assault rifles and smaller. Big sniper rifles is pushing it, and the rocket launchers and Steel Lynx are a little out-there, even for a troll.
Halinn
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Oct 21 2012, 01:13 PM) *
That's not so hard to imagine if most of the contents are assault rifles and smaller. Big sniper rifles is pushing it, and the rocket launchers and Steel Lynx are a little out-there, even for a troll.

"What's the concealability modifier on our Citymaster? 20, you say? I can do that."
Kliko
For Assault rifles, just think of the bank robbery scene from the film HEAT...
Stingray
QUOTE (Kliko @ Oct 21 2012, 03:14 PM) *
For Assault rifles, just think of the bank robbery scene from the film HEAT...

Colt M733 in it's finest..
devil.gif
Raiden
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Oct 21 2012, 06:51 AM) *
Well to a troll the katana is just a knife...


more like a wakasashi.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Halinn @ Oct 21 2012, 01:19 PM) *
"What's the concealability modifier on our Citymaster? 20, you say? I can do that."


Luckily, the concealability modifier on anything larger than assault rifles/swords is more akin to "yeah, right!"


+6 for rifles and swords seems fine to me, what is really silly is that if someone feels your jacket he only gets +3 instead....
ShadowDragon8685
One can conceal vehicles and other, more improbable things, in excessively improbable locations, but it requires the 35-point positive quality Tactical Genius.
FuelDrop
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Oct 21 2012, 09:38 PM) *
One can conceal vehicles and other, more improbable things, in excessively improbable locations, but it requires the 35-point positive quality Tactical Genius.

... And a really, really, REALLY big troll. grinbig.gif
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Oct 21 2012, 08:53 AM) *
... And a really, really, REALLY big troll. grinbig.gif


Worth it when the vindicator on top of the CityMaster you didn't see behind the troll spins up, though.
Lionhearted
I'm gonna go with the great dragon hiding behind lamppost theory on this one
FuelDrop
Which book is the 'tactical genius' PQ in?
Halinn
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Oct 21 2012, 04:01 PM) *
Which book is the 'tactical genius' PQ in?

Imperial Guard Codex, I believe.
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Halinn @ Oct 21 2012, 10:19 PM) *
Imperial Guard Codex, I believe.

You mean the same codex as the 'Send in the next wave' PQ? actually, that might be a viable tactic for a rigger...
ShadowDragon8685
It lets you infiltrate any unit type that is not cavalry, anywhere. (You can't infiltrate cavalry because it would not make sense for them to be scouts.)

Note that that applies specifically to the "animal under human rider" type of cavalry, not expanded definitions including "armored cavalry" and such.


The note that tanks are not cavalry. Baneblades are not cavalry. Warlord-class Titans are not cavalry. smile.gif
FuelDrop
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Oct 21 2012, 10:26 PM) *
It lets you infiltrate any unit type that is not cavalry, anywhere. (You can't infiltrate cavalry because it would not make sense for them to be scouts.)

Note that that applies specifically to the "animal under human rider" type of cavalry, not expanded definitions including "armored cavalry" and such.


The note that tanks are not cavalry. Baneblades are not cavalry. Warlord-class Titans are not cavalry. smile.gif

However, if you plonk your Warhound class titan on top of your Warlord class titan then suddenly it's cavalry and can't infiltrate! rotfl.gif
Meanwhile my grav-tanks can't deepstrike, while blood angels can do it with their landraiders...

OK, let's leave the 40k stuff for the bell of lost souls. We're here for shadowrun... and working on how to conceal our twin hundred-round-barreled assault rifle under a dressing gown in case you're surprised in bed!
Lionhearted
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Oct 21 2012, 04:37 PM) *
how to conceal our twin hundred-round-barreled assault rifle under a dressing gown in case you're surprised in bed!


Planet Terror springs to mind
Byrel
On the topic of real-life concealment:
Youtube
Now, I think the top comment would be my GM-brain response: "Yeah, a kid walking like a penquin wont alarm anybody"

But seriously? It doesn't take exceptionally high agility or palming skill to conceal a holdout IRL... Particularly not with appropriate gear. For that matter, I'm not sure Agility is particularly relavent for most, traditional concealment mathods in Real ifr.
Xenefungus
Oh yeah, real-life concealment. I guess Ladies should get bonus dice for that.
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Xenefungus @ Oct 22 2012, 06:56 AM) *
Oh yeah, real-life concealment. I guess Ladies should get bonus dice for that.

Finally a reason to take the breast implant cyberware from augmentation! change your breast size to fit whatever you're trying to hide... within limits.
TeOdio
QUOTE (kzt @ Oct 20 2012, 10:41 PM) *
It's actually very hard to spot someone carrying a small (or not so small) gun in a decent appropriate holster. Particularly if they are not moving and are used to carrying it.

Not that reality has much to do with any of the SR gun rules...

Or how many dakka luvin runners actually carry a hold out pistol.
Midas
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Oct 20 2012, 02:28 PM) *
Palming is to conceal the weapons better in the first place, otherwise threshold would be 1. An unskilled character is probably better off not rolling.
The GM might simply roll a Palming test for a character secretly, so he doesn't know how well concealed his weapons are.

QUOTE (Dolanar @ Oct 21 2012, 11:59 AM) *
Under the Using Perception heading of the book there are some basic thresholds based on the observability of the target etc. for instance a hidden object has a threshold of 5+

I think Friend is right here, to me Dolaner's 5+ threshold hidden object modifier is for items hidden in a room, not on your person (which is a much harder thing to do).

But yes, Palming is a useful skill to have for concealing weapons, as is Disguise for making a camouflage hide for sniping. Stealth group for the win!
Dolanar
yes, perhaps so...so you use a lesser threshold if you feel its a bit much, I can see using palming if you are avoiding an active search, but I can't see a palming test to handle being studied for weapons while not being aware that you are being observed.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Oct 21 2012, 10:26 AM) *
The note that tanks are not cavalry. Baneblades are not cavalry. Warlord-class Titans are not cavalry. smile.gif


Infiltrate a Titan, eh? Orbital drop on a planet that often has meteor impacts.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (TeOdio @ Oct 22 2012, 06:18 PM) *
Or how many dakka luvin runners actually carry a hold out pistol.


Several of mine do... smile.gif
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 24 2012, 08:30 AM) *
Several of mine do... smile.gif

Ditto. An Elan with easy breakdown can get pretty much anywhere... though smuggling the ammunition through with it is the challenge!
Raiden
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Oct 23 2012, 07:43 PM) *
Ditto. An Elan with easy breakdown can get pretty much anywhere... though smuggling the ammunition through with it is the challenge!


WHY i love the pistol slinger, done right, you can pretty much take a guy out of the fight in a single well placed shot. oh, getting in a place, I just show them my gel rounds, "see, non lethal self protection!" and keep my good rounds hidden away >:3
Halinn
Holdouts are a lovely way of delivering stick'n'shock. A bit less ammo capacity in exchange for being able to just take it through MAD scanners, or explain much more easily to security why you're carrying a gun into their building.
Midas
QUOTE (Dolanar @ Oct 23 2012, 08:08 AM) *
yes, perhaps so...so you use a lesser threshold if you feel its a bit much, I can see using palming if you are avoiding an active search, but I can't see a palming test to handle being studied for weapons while not being aware that you are being observed.

I consider use of the Palming skill to help conceal the thing in the first place, so it wouldn't matter to me if you were aware of being observed or not. Of course, any benefit from the concealment go when the weapon is drawn, and the character would have to do another test to secrete it away again after a gunfight.
Raiden
the main char that I have spent the most time on is an ex-swat. has two modded up ruger super warhawks, (no forbidden parts ;}) coneacled holsters behind his back, if they ask, he shows gel bullets, registrations, and usually has a dam good reason for them smile.gif.

one of the mods I DONT like is the chameleon coating for weapons. I mean.. it makes concealability a null point (unless you go through scanners.)
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Raiden @ Oct 24 2012, 05:51 PM) *
one of the mods I DONT like is the chameleon coating for weapons. I mean.. it makes concealability a null point (unless you go through scanners.)

Well, unless someone notices that your clothes aren't moving right right around that invisible assault rifle. for pistols or the like yeah, it does make concealability a non-issue
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Raiden @ Oct 24 2012, 05:51 AM) *
the main char that I have spent the most time on is an ex-swat. has two modded up ruger super warhawks, (no forbidden parts ;}) coneacled holsters behind his back, if they ask, he shows gel bullets, registrations, and usually has a dam good reason for them smile.gif.

one of the mods I DONT like is the chameleon coating for weapons. I mean.. it makes concealability a null point (unless you go through scanners.)


Chameleon applies a dice pool penalty to checks to spot the concealed weapon just as concealability rating providers a dice pool penalty or bonus to perception checks. They are not exclusive options. A chameleon coated assault rifle will grant a +2 bonus to the perception check, a chameleon coated holdout will grant a -8 penalty to the check. In fact, chameleon is one of those things that is significantly useful in order to foil high perception characters.
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