Hate to bust your bubble on the Suites in the SR4A book, but there is absolutely no mention that these Suites run in a single program space (Unless I missed this somewhere... Can you provide an SR4A reference to this? I ask because in SR4A, ALL running programs take a slot each, says so right in the description, and the Suites there are not exempted from this). They just cost less than the normal individual program costs (so I would have to go back and readjust my above post... probably too much work, but that would possibly make my package even cheaper than original in comparison to the Unwired Packages - But I do not think so). You can certainly institute this, if you like (Houserule?), but the only mention of such a thing is for the Unwired Program Packages, which are specifically called out as such.

Well, it is a common house-rule, but in fact you are right - in SR4A, there is nowhere stated that this falls under the rules in UW, p. 128. Also, there is no errata that clarifies this matter.

There is always an ARC. Even if it is the default one that came with the Comlink.



There is a difference between program crashed and restart, and Program keeps crashing because every time I start it my Computer Hangs. In that case, I reboot, Scan the Drives and remove whatever malware has just been installed. I will try a restart once, if that results in further issues (and in the game scenario, it will) then I Hard Reboot as described above. I don't have many infections. Why? Becasue I learned my Lesson after the first time. Annd even though I like to think I am somewhat knowledgeable about Computers (been using them for 33 years now), I am not a guru. All it takes is once for most people to learn to use security precautions and procedures.

In the world of Shadowrun, Hacks happen all the time, literally (gotta love those viral adds). Therefore, teh average Joe Wageslave will have learned to use basic security processes and pocedures. Wont stop a dedicated Hacker, but a low-end crappy Agent Hacker (rating 2 on the targeted comlink due to constraints of the hardware) will likely not be all that successful.



Indeed... Missed that one. Thanks



Disagree here. The "Suites" in SR4A are not the same as the Program Suites in Unwired. Yes, they can be, but you see no real cost savings or difference than for what you can get in teh Basic Netware Package for that low-end comlink, as the Netware is still a better package. *shrug*




Sure, but he takes up a slot. Notice how Edit is not in my Must have for the 'Link (Analyze, Browse, Encrypt (Not in ANY Suite), Reality Filter). So you take out Browse and replace it with an Agent. Still have the slot used.



Well, you do have to load the agent, as you do not want an open subscription that the user will notice. A subscription that will be there with an apparently up to an Hour delayed start for the Money grab. Not my scenario, but _Pax's_.



Requisite in the scenario. And it does not matter if the Agent has access to server side programs, the Agent itself kills the 'Link.


EDIT: Again, to make the Scenario work, as _Pax_ supports it, you have to assume that Joe Wageslave is stupid, and that is not the case.
Now, that does not mean that it cannot be done, just not by a crappy remote Pocket hacker program agent. The Hacker needs to take a hand, and at that point, it is not as deniable any longer.

Yeah, Pax' scenario does not work really well (except for a Rtg. 6+ Sleuth Sprite w/ Decrypt and Exploit). It would be easier to mass probe (UW, p.99) via a geostational satelite link and/or use malware like a combination of RAT/Pupeteer/Vector trojans, Swiss Cheese/Inertia Viruses and Data or Trackerworms.

Indeed... but where is the fun in that?

Well, many computer "users" (more abusers -.-) are completely uninterested in computer stuff (besides surfing the web and doing stuff in Office) and have nearly zero idea what to do in unusual situations. As someone who had some experience in the computer branch, concerning computer security, Joe Wageslave IS stupid (or simply not a bit interested).

This is in 2012 where a large majority of the population didn't grow up with the technology, in 2070 everyone have and it's even more integrated to society then the mobile trends of today, anyone not knowing basic computer security must be a shapeshifter or something

To each their own dystopia. For me, the wageslave dystopia involves Big Brother-esque indoctrination, working ridiculously long hours, and for the lucky few life in the corp enclave away from the mean streets. The corp wants its wageslaves to have *some* disposable income, else who buys their sleek corp products and keeps the company consumer machine going? The corp wants its wageslaves tied down with family and kids, so much the better to keep them in place with school fees, and the next generation of corp servants brought along in the bargain.
So, my gameworld wageslaves are not *badly* off, just worked to the bone for minimal reward.


So 900 - 1,200 an hour in your book. Still not great, if you assume there is some chance of detection from random sweeps to moniter hidden commlinks and/or alerts from failed hacks, which you are still not explaining how you are going to counter.


Fair enough, but these two cost-cutting exercises increase your risk of getting caught:
1) If your hack is detected and the transmission of funds traced, you are caught when you go to get the money. If you transfer it, you leave a paper trail and that 100 nuyen bank account bank is gonna sing like a canary as soon as a mega/the cops come threatening lawsuits.
2) Any programmes you load onto the targets' commlinks can be forensically traced back to you if you don't burn them with the commlink. True, you have to be caught for this to mean anything, but is is still added risk.

I do not see anything I have asserted that "makes shadowrunning impossible".

Stealing 15K/day, if it is as easy as you claim it would be, would amount to a cool 5 mill/year unchecked ... and as your pocket hacker can be assembled cheaply and easily (low entry barrier), if the corp world ain't taking precautions economic losses to mass hacking by say 100 or even 1000 practicioners would soon outrank annual losses that the corp might face from suffering the occasional shadowrun.

As it is, corps spend billions shoring their facilities up against shadowrunners - all that security mook salary, astral security, IC and spyders, drones, fences, maglocks etc is not just for show. Sure, a team of pros with the right blend of skills and knowhow (very high entry barrier) might be able to pull a run off, but the countermeasures are there.

Why you think mall security/the police not expend fairly cheap measures to occasionally monitor for mass hacks in crowded areas is beyond me. I am not saying such things would be impossible, I am just saying they would not be free of the risk of getting caught, and that the risk of not covering your burned commlink/agent/programmes upfront costs is IMHO fairly high.

First, I disagree about Encrypt, on the basic premise that if it doesn't come with teh commlink, and isn't absolutely required, that most wageslaves aren't going to bother with it.

Second, Inever objected to Analyze .... and Analyze is part of the Basic User Suite.

Third, Basic User Suite. Analyze 2, Browse 2, Command 1, Edit 2. Costs 300¥, representing a 50¥ savings over the cost of buying all four separately.


.... um, what?!? Reality Filter isn't a custom interface, reality filter is for VR (hot or cold alike), and is a custom PARADIGM. Obsessed with medieval knights and castles and so on? Poof, all matrix iconography is translated into "medieval-knight-and-castles stuff".

If you want a customised interface - something out of Star Trek, or Star Wars, or whatever? You pay 250¥ for the not a program "Customised Interface" modification.


...


You have a very unrealistic view of the kind of things that the common, security-ignorant masses do or don't do with their portable communications systems.






The Basic User Suite is 300¥ (Analyze 2, Browse 2, Command 1, Edit 2); independently these programs would cost 350¥.
The Basic User Plus suite is 400¥ (Analyse 3, Browse 3, command 1, Edit 3); independently these programs would cost 500¥.
The Pro User Suite is 600¥ (Analyse 4, Browse 4, Command 2, Edit 4); independently these programs would cost 1,300¥.

Basic book stuff, there.


Red programs are not needed by a typical non-shadowrunner/wageslave. And, you're missing Command - so the commlink can't for example unlock their car door as they walk up to it. Nor do any other "make X device perform Y action", for that matter.


Only if you ignore the User suites - core rules, p232.






If the responses you have proposed were to be normal and rgular things, for what is toa corporate accountant small-time crimes ... then the response for an actual shadowrun, costing the company at least two orders of magnitude more, would have to be at least as strong, and as swift. More likely, two to four TIMES as much of a response.

And since the consequences of the responses you described would invariably amount to "roll up a new character" ... yeah. They render the entire premise of the game null and void.


Full stop. I, myself, have always advocated doing this every 10-15 days, for the sole reason of not providing a quickly-recognisable pattern. Certainly not "every day".


It can be neither such thing. I do believe the commlink itself came to somewhere around 5,000¥. The agents and the programs loaded onto them will cost in the neighborhood of 20,000¥ (the R5, Ergonomic, Optimised +2 Stealth alone is 5500¥). And on top of the 25K¥ to 30K¥ "Seed money", to get those programs without copy protection you are either a modestly skilled hacker with time to spare OR you have Warez-related contacts. All in all, neither "cheap" nor "easy" are applicable adjectives here.


In two words or less? "Human Nature."

For one, it won't be the mall's liability. They're not going to cover the costs associated with it. And since it's not happening twice in a single year (not by the PC running the scam at least) in that mall, there's not a lot of PR damage done.

For two, "security theater". It's always cheaper and easier to LOOK like you're doing something productive, than to actually enhance security. For proof of this, ... look at the TSA.

And to me, it's all that you desribed and they're badly off.


"Ignore them, and rely on the general stupidity of the majority of humankind". Seriously, most wageslaves aren't going to set up the hue and cry if their link alerts them to a hack-in-progress. At most, they're going to say "Feck, not again!" and hit the shiny Restart button. Possibly for the fifth time that day.


The credit account is in an offshore bank run by one of the major crime syndicates. Once you discontinue the service, there is no paper trail at all. And that is straight out of the book, by the by.


Earlier, I suggested the Agent be directed to delete (or Corrupt) everything on the 'link immediately after the 5¥ transaction was complete. Yes, including itself.

I Disagree with you. It is inevitable that in the next 60 years, users will be a bit more cautious. *shrug*
As far as what is part of the Software... we are not really disagreeing much on that. You will need, at the minimum, a Browse (or Agent with Access to Browse) Program, Analyze Program, and Encryption Program (which I see as the bare minimum if you want to at all protect your 'Link, so what if it is not part of a Package). You should also have a Scan Program (Which comes for free with every 'Link) and a Command Program. Reality Filter is another No-Brainer Program if you are on the "Link a lot. So, at that point, there is STILL no room for that Hacking Agent you keep talking about on a Rated 2 "Average" 'Link before it shuts down completely. *shrug*



Custom Iconography is a Reality Filter. It is customized to you and your preferences. Call it a paradigm if you like, either way, it is cheap and works well for what it does.

Yes, there is also a Custom Interface Hardware modification, which I did not comment upon becasue we are talking about Software. *shrug*



I do not think so, based upon what I see today. More and more people are becoming more aware of the risks of the Internet and are taking steps to secure their data. Yes, right now, there are some who really do not care; obviously we are not all the way there yet. However, in time I think that more and more people will start to be more cautious. It is happening already. *shrug*



Already covered those. You should read the thread a bit more closely. I think that the regular user WILL get the Encrypt and Reality Filter for a couple of reasons. The Encrypt to secure their data a bit more securely (even if it is nothing more than a speedbump to real hackers, it will keep the Pocket Hackers busy); and the Reality Filter for its obvious benefit to the user (which is a DP bonus and not a program rating bonus). *shrug*
And yes, Command can be added to my Package, as already outlined above. For a mere 50 Nuyen. *shrug*



Not ignored. And again, the CORE rules say nothing about the use of those suites for single program space. In addition, the Suites DO NOT ALLOW YOU TO RUN A PROGRAM at a higher rating than would otherwise be allowed. So No, I am not ignoring anything here. Besides, that has Already been covered above. You're lagging _Pax_.




You do not think that doing this two to three time a month would not quickly generate a recognizeable pattern? *Shakes Head*




And yet any competent hacker will start with such capabilities. That being the case, it is rather cheap and easy. Especially if you are generating the amounts of money that you keep claiming this scheme will generate. If it is not so easy, then your scheme will cover the cost of a new link each time. Not a really good scheme if that is all it is providing. *shrug*




So, A PC is the only person capable of trying such a scam? Again, Hacking attempts are likely going on ALL THE TIME in the 2070's. And all it takes is ONE negative publicity piece to make sure that people start taking a look at this.

So, you do not think that taking their money and then destroying ALL THEIR DATA is not going to raise a hue and cry? Really? You simply astound me _Pax_.

No, I really don't think they will be more cautious than now. I think the relative stupidity of the majority of the human species will win out over common sense ... again ... just like it has for the past, oh, hundred thousand years or more.

And we do disagree. I don't think everyone and their uncle will have an Encryption program, and even if they owned a copy, I don't think it would be running 24/7. Encryption is readily available right now. The majority of people do not use it. And that's because the majority of people are not concerned iwth, nor even particularly conscious of, computer security issues.


I completely, totally, and vehemently disagree with this. You don't need a Reality Filter to do things on the matrix, especially not if you typically use AR rather than VR. And even if youhave it - unless you're actually in VR (which means, slumped over and drooling on yourself), you won't be running it. And "customised iconography" is not where Reality Filter stops - nor is it required for a "customised interface".


See, here's the problem with that. If Encrypt was intended, per the RAW, to be in widespread, common usage - to the point where every Tom, Dick, and Harry shoudl be expected to be running it? It would be included in the suites presented on p232 of the main book. Those suites represent what everyone does have, and at least occasionally run. The things not included, I would say, are not part of most people's software setups. And that would include both Encrypt, and Reality Filter.


The Basic User Suite is Analyze 2, Browse 2, Command 1, Edit 2. Each of which functions at it's full efficacy on a 2-2-2-2 commlink.


You are ignoring them, if you insist that published suites are "mostly useless" for a 2-2-2-2 commlink. At least one is tailor made for such a 'link, in fact.


Two or three times a month, each time in a different location and jurisdiction.

Seattle presents us with (at present) no less than 4 non-corporate jurisdictions within easy "day trip" distance: the Seattle Metroplex, the Ork Underground (until it's part of Seattle anyway), the Salish-Sidhe council, and Tir Tairngire. With a boat and a free weekend, you could nip up to the Tsimshian Protectorate. If you're willing to fly, well, nearly the whole damned globe is at your fingertips. So, yeah. You run the scam once in Seattle proper, you run it again in Portland two weeks later. A week and a half after that, you head up to Billingham for a couple days. Two weeks later you go to the Ork Underground, and plant a 'link on the Tourist Highway, somewhere innocuous .... just before getting on a plane for a two-week business trip to California, near the end of which, you run the scam in a mall there. Finally, you take a ten-day fishing trip northward, stopping for supplies (and running the scam) in Kitimat, halfway through the trip.

Total elapsed time? about sixty days ... two months. And you've run the scam five times. Each time in a completely different jurisdiction, and probably, different Police Service Provider areas. Widely separated locations, widely separated times. You pull in maybe 25K profit (assuming that money laundering and replacement commlink purchases eat up al but 5K from each iteration). Possibly as a sidelight to, you know, actual shadowruns (those trips to Billingham, California, and "fishing"). Yur next job takes you to Denver? BOO YAH, there's like six highly-suspicious-of-each-other jurisdictions within WALKING distance of each other. Last day or two before you go, plant yourself a bunch of disposable 'links, and yayy, money!


So because it's easy for the character who should be thinking about this kind of stuff ... it's somehow too easy?

Okay, fine, it just became "easy and inexpensive" for a shadowrunner to pack full-on milspec weapons and armor. Nevermind the expense, nevermind the availability ... weapons dealer or merc contact and some cash, we're done.






"They" are unimportant wageslaves; whatever hue-and-cry they might try to raise? Unimportant. Until or unless it actually, materially affects a corporation's or government's or actually-important person's bottom line? Shadowrun's setting is supposed to be a dystopia - one in which "the little guy" gets the short end of the stick every day of his life, and noone in power cares to hear anything but "yes sir" and "right away ma/am" and "would you prefer coffee or tea" from them.

So, let 'em raise the hue and cry. Noone with the ability to do jack over squat is going to listen. Not for a very, very long time.

Dystopia, people. Keep that firmly in mind.

It DOES give the GM plenty of possible future enemies.

Just take Falling Down movie as an example and now you exchange that for a disgruntled hacked wageslave that is out for revenge - and the players actually find out that the guy is outright devious and cunning regardless of his less than impressive attributes and lack of shadowrunning skills.

Or for that matter - that disgruntled wageslave is a former desert war veteran who just wanted to get away from it all and have a quiet deskjob...and now some poor bastard took it all away from him...

And that is IMO a much better disincentive than "XYZ security measures that mysteriously disappear when you're hacking bigger, better-funded megacorp facilities even though they have more to protect/hide"

You could also go with a gang of teen- and tween-aged hacker "Script kiddied" (or otaku-esque technomancers) who're torqued off that you intruded on their "turf".

So many possibilities, that don't have to involve Omniscient/Omnipresent security forces, or show-stopping anti-hacker defenses.

Certainly your perogative; and yet more and more people are starting to actually secure their online interactions. Yes, we have a long way to go, but we have come a long way in the last 15 years.



I will hit these all at once.

So, DO you use Encyrption, or any type of security Software at all? If so, did you get it with your Microsoft Office package? I do, and no, it did not come with my Suite. So, that tells me that Encryption is not meant to be sold with a Suite. But here is the Thing. IT IS A COMMON USE PROGRAM. Examine that phrase a bit. COMMON USE. Which means it is commonly used. Same goes for the Reality Filter. Pretty much case closed on that linguistic issue, I think.

As for the Suites being Mostly Useless to the Average Joe. Only 1 out of 5 Suites (that is 20% for the math challenged) is fully useable to the Rating 2 Comlink. Yes, I would call them "Mostly Useless" to the Average Joe.



So, According to you, the person running this scam is not a Hacker. The one Archetype that this would excel for, and teh one person who likely knows just how to accomplish this scam. So now, it is apparently a non-Hacker, with few Matrix Skills (Do not remember, but weren't these also your words?). With a lack of money, obviously, because that is what you are saying above. So tell me _Pax_, in this dystopian world of yours, where everyone is treated like crap and is totally unimportant, HOW is the average person going to save up the, what was it, 30,000 Nuyen, to start with this scam? Since you intimate that the person running this scam is likely living a low lifestyle, that is 15 months of Lifestyle upkeep THAT DOES NOT GO TO UPKEEP before he can even begin this scheme. So, how is he living? Since he is not making an EXTRA amount of money to put away in savings in this dystopian world of yours (Your words, though maybe not exactly). Please explain that one to me.

As for the Time you indicate in each jurisdiction, you are wrong. Becasue you are probably not the only individual who came up with this scam. If you can do it, why cannot someone else? So, now you have 2 people, or 3 people or 10, or a 100 trying this scam in each location, and maybe they are not as circumspect as you are and run it every 5 days. Or maybe there are 5 people each and every day that are running it in any given location in the city. So, tell me oh guru of the "Link Hacking Scam, How many instances of this hack are going on NOW? See. The PC does not operate in a vaccuum (Assumptions to the contrary are just Hubris), and becasue of that, the PC is just as likely to get caught like any other person running this scam.



That is pretty funny _Pax_. And you know that is not what I said. You are just being Disengenuous.




Yes, it is a Dystopia, but if it was as Dystopic as you point out, then the world would not work at all. If the citizens are unhappy, then the Corps will try to make them happy. This will not include better pay or hours. However, when you have several thousand Employees complain to the Corporate Higher ups that their Comlink was apparently hacked at the corner food mart where they get their lunch (Because that is the only other place where they all were during the day), the Corp will take at least some action to rectify the situation. Same goes for a Public Transportation Hub and the Police Provider. If they do not, then they have to deal with the consequences. I can guarantee you that it is not a one time thing, like you intimate. If you, the PC, can think about it, then some other yahoo has also thought about it, and is also doing the same thing. Viola, Multiple infractions simultaneously each and every day. See, it is not just you, the PC, trying to do this. It WILL GET NOTICED, and will be investigated. And since it is so easy to avoid, you will not be making much on that scam, either. Becasue the Rating 2 Comlink you choose to target will more often than not detect the intrusion (Actually quite simple and has been detailed more than once) and a log will be created to forward the data immediately to the investigating entity. Why? Because the Corp that these Unimportant Wageslaves are working for has configured their hardware to do so. And guess what, your Peasly little Rating 2 Burglary Agent cannot stop it, because he cannot detect that. *shrug*

So, A Rating 2 Encryption is now a Show Stopper Anti-Hacker Defense? Really? Who would have thought; especially since almost everyone complains that Encryption sucks in Shadowrun.

Detection of this scam is damned easy. A Single Security Node with a Security Agent that scans for Hidden nodes in an area, and then details someone to handle the situation, ESPECIALLY IN PUBLIC AREAS where Hidden Mode is disallowed. Your Hidden Node Agent 'Link will be discovered in a matter of minutes. And if the Otaku/Technomancer gang can detect this intrusion scam, why cannot an authority of some sort? And if you counter with the "its only in Passive mode" it will likely be discovered even earlier than that.

You really do amaze me with your contradictions.

Yeah, you know what? You're arguing just to argue, and I tire of yoru obtuseness (is that a word?).

whatever.

I counter your points with valid arguments, and I am arguing just to argue? Wow. Okay then. Point still stands. It is trivially easy to eliminate your proposed Hacking Scheme. *shrug*

Yes, Obtuseness is a word. You should look it up, It does not mean what you think it means. And if it is what you meant, then I would thank you to not conduct personal attacks.

One thing that bothers me with "hidden mode is disallowed" - that means your whole PAN has to be in active/passive mode, because if not, someone will come and investigate why you have a device in hidden mode.

Correct, but that is what you get in the Corporate Zones. If you are hiding something, the Corp wants to know. You should not be hiding things from your Corp. The same goes for any Zones that the City declares as such, as well. When such a thing is detected, the Controlling entity sends someone to investigate (generally a drone to "politely remind you" that you are in a Zone that requires Active/Passive Modes). *shrug*

"Seize illegal activities with immediate effect, you have ten seconds to comply, failure to comply results in extermination!"

Exterminate! Exterminate!

It stops pretty much any agent from getting inside. A cheap encryption program deters pretty much all the autonomous spambots, dataminers, and identity-theft scripts you may walk by in daily life.
LoL for agents not having electronic warfare.

Also, I should remind everyone that Encrypt programs double as Zip files, for packing things up into accessable files. (the only difference is Sr4 encrypt assumes its password protected, while most people in the real world don't bother passcoding their family albums when sending them to family)
That alone makes the program one of THE most common use programs out there. Who here uses winrar, winzip, or winace? I do!

*Grabs them illegal activities*
"Ok Boss, now what do I do with 'em?"

(You're looking for "cease")

Yes, it will stop low level spambots, but NOT an actual Hacker. It is Not so useful for the high level stuff (but that is okay, because there are higher level Encryp Programs out there). Which is at it should be. *shrug*

I find it interesting that there are some that are now decrying the humble Encrypt Program as the end all be all of Computer Security.

It can be, if you consider War! military programs.

It is really, really hard to beat a threshold 20 Cryptanalysis test without glitching, considering the decreasing extended dice pools mechanic.

Fun thing about that: that's not actually a rule.

Yes, the response is swift. The book suggests that the corp will dispatch a HTRT that will arrive on the scene about 10 mins after the alert is raised. And yet, you think mall security will let a pocket hacker steal from all and sundry all day long.

The reason shadowrunners succeed is not because the corp wants them to, but because they pull the job off before the corp can react, and have the skills and tactical abilities to defeat all the corp's exprensively assembled security systems, and manage to get away scott free.

Saying "If the authorities are gonna do anything to prevent or pursue a 15K crime, a 1,500K crime would therefore be impossible." is flawed logic. Also, as I keep saying, countermeasures and responses to a "highly skilled rare heist" and a "simple and common computer crime" are apples and oranges, and direct comparison is meaningless.


But this is just your team. If, as you are maintaining, mass hacks should be simple as shelling peas, you are not going to be the only people in town on the act.


Remember you are comparing this to shadowrunning, which generally involves a team of people each at the top of the game in their respective skillsets and using SOTA gear to something anyone with a basic understanding of the wireless world and malicious attitude could do with 30K. Being able to source cracked programmes (or even design your own) is not uncommon nor much of an additional barrier for anyone with a hacking bent, and you could do a bare-bones version of your scheme for much less than you are quoting.


Not sure how much you understand about "human nature".

Malls that do not take preventative measures against hackers will lose business. The victim may feel less happy about visiting that mall, and word of mouth will have a multiplying effect ("Marge got her commlink hacked down ABC mall last week. She went back yesterday, and they said they were not liable and there was nothing they could do. I was gonna take the family next week, but I'm not so sure now.").

Your point on security theatre is all very well, but it doesn't explain why the mall security would want to take no preventative action or countermeasures at all.

You are talking about hacking 3000 commlinks for 5 nuyen each. If you assume about 6 million people passing through Seattle (or wherever your game is set) per day, that is 0.5% of people passing through the city per mass hack. Pull it off twice a month, and within one game year your character will have ripped 5 nuyen off about 10% of the city's population. So, even if there are only 10 people working this scam in the city at your rate, on average each citizen has been ripped off once. If you consider you are only targeting people with rating 2 Firewall or below (let's call it 50% for argument's sake), for the subset of population affected the cost is more likely 10 nuyen. Make it 100 people a year doing it, and the hacker vulnerable portion of the population are each getting ripped off for 100 nuyen, at which point the gameworld victims are likely to upgrade security on their commlinks sharpish.

Just throwing it out there, but aren't worms and similar virus-type programs loaded onto hackers gum (from attitude) perfect for mass hacks like the ones you're talking about? as I understand it the hack would hit everyone in the radius at once instead of hacking one link at a time...

Your grip on gameworld reality seems pretty thin to me. Who is hacking their commlink 5 times a day, and to what end? And why would Joe Wageslave ignore a hack on his computer? Would you? Would any PC?


Not having Unwired myself (which perhaps explains my quaint view of the wireless world), I couldn't comment on your rules quote. A one-off 100 nuyen payment to set up an untraceable offshore bank a/c that magically launders money for nothing and shows the finger to the police/megas if they come snooping seems pretty stupid to me, but who am I to say?


So as well as ripping Joe Wageslave off for 5 nuyen, you are destroying his commlink as well. The cheap options of buying better firewall or Encrypt to Joe Wageslave are starting to look much more appealing, and the economic costs of your cybercrime have just snowballed. It is not just 15K that you have syphoned off the system now, but 3,015K. 3 mill economic cost for 1 mass hack, but nobody can be bothered to do anything about it. Yeah, right.

I'd like to just pour some white phosphorous on this debate:


Everything is assuming that the victim realizes they have been ripped off.

Nearly nobody is going to have immediate alerts set for 5 transactions or whatever. By the time they get their monthly statement, they probably won't even notice five extra nuyen. If they do, and assuming they do manage to correctly suss out the right 5 transaction (and don't blame it on the wrong person altogether,) they're likely to think "Oh hey, I must have got two soycafs that day" or something, not "Oh my god, I've been robbed! HUE! HUE I say! HUE and maybe even CRY!"

Can you back this point up at all?
Because I'm nearly 100% positive its a core rule in the latest printing of the core book. (4a)

Spotting that sort of shenanigans is inmy opinion fialry easy : if you're a mall owner or the like, just set a few honeypots 'links around and have your beefier system keep an eye on them - a mass hack is bound to pay the 'pot a visit, at which point it's going to be spotted and probably traced.

The associated costs are fairly low, just a few low-end comlinks in teh security's pocket who wander ober the place, a few extra subscriptions to the mall's system and you're set.

That sort of things is beat cop level security and won't catch any halfway decent hacker (who are likely to spot the surveillance), but it's enough to detect and stomp over bots and script kiddies.

A meatworld analogy would be having a few cops our of uniform walking around known fleshspot looking for hookers soliciting Johns where it's not legal.

Manumancy: And the appropriate countermeasure to that is to install your flypaper commlink, walk away, and program it to monitor the site for a set amount of time (three days should be sufficient, but you can go to one week if you want to,) and have it exclude any device nodes that are there more than a certain amount of time in that threshold:

A lot of devices (probably the majority of devices) are going to be Rating 1 and 2. It does you no good to hack into the Device Rating 2 soycaf machine at the Starbucks in the mall, because it is not going to have any financial details on it. You're also going to want to exclude any commlinks present after working hours (assuming the mall does shut down,) and want to exclude any employees or the types of people who come and go all the time, as they are more likely to be willing to make waves by storming up to the management office in full Entitled American mode and demand the mall do something about their financial losses.

If they're using honeypot commlinks, they will be excluded on the same grounds that employee commlinks will be: that they've been there too often.

[e]Oh, and it was asked earlier: the reason you want your viral Agent to be as Ergonomic as possible is because it's going to be running on very crappy commlinks, and their users will get suspicious if their commlinks suddenly slow down. At the very least, they're likely to run a Purge program, or Analyze for the Agent. Did your Agent think to bring along a Disarm program and run it on the commlink's Analyze and Firewall? Probably not.

That HTRT only gets dispatched if an alarm has been raised - and not just "two guards sent to check camera ourage in parking area two", no, more like "ALARM! ALARM! INTRUDERS DETECTED ON SITE! ALARM! ALARM!" The mall security guys? If all goes well, they won't ever GET an alarm, until at least two or three days later. At which time, calling out the HTRT-level response? Waste of time, energy, and all-importantly money. What good would be lokcing down the mall, two days after the crime took place?

Also, Corporate Security's HTRT's are head, shoulders, and then some above Mall Rent-a-cops where it comes to professionalism, training, response time, and the salary that pays for all of those. So even if a mall-wide alarm sounded? Mall Security would probably take longer to get their asses in gear, than the HTRT would take to arrive at a corporate black site, anyway.

Finally: see ShadowDragon's comment.

The whole reason the theft is 5¥ per person, instead of a bigger number with multiple 0's after it, is to go largely unnoticed for an extended period of time. It's really easy to miss a one-time 5¥ charge.

Diminishing dice pools is listed at the end of a paragraph of various ways the gamemaster can limit how many rolls the character can make.

"The character may have a limited timeframe," "the gamemaster can limit the number of rolls," and "the suggested method is to apply a cumulative -1 dice pool modifier to each test after the first."

It is only suggested it is not actually a rule. The actual rule is that extended tests assume that given enough time a competent character will eventually complete the task (the problem is, you don't always have "enough time").

Indeed....
Only if you use the extended DP Mechanics. Not every one does, from what I understand.

Funny thing is, they do not need to have that. At Rating 2 Comlink, The second the Agent Loads to the 'Link, the 'Link Crashes becasue it has just gone over its response limit (Rating 2 Comlink, remember, Running Analyze, Browse (Or Agent to access Browse) and Encrypt as a Minimum. Likely Reality Filter as well (Some Disagree, but it IS a common use Program for a reason) to gain the "Edge; " one of which is likely to be Ergonomic (Encrypt would be my choice) that is 3 Programs actively running at all time, 2-3 of which are not Ergonomic. When the agent is loaded, the Response reduces to Zero (Agent has 3 programs, only 2 of which can be Ergonomic, and if The Target 'Link has an Ergonomic Program running, even the Agent's Payload will be degraded for Ergonomic Options due to comlink limits, so 2-3 Additional Programs Load with the Agent), and the 'Link Freezes up). Pretty sure that will be noticed. If the Hacker Node starts unloading Programs to make room for its own, Pretty sure that will be noticed.

Except that they do not have to be Honeypot Comlinks. Your Hacker 'Link will by necessity need to be in Hidden Mode. As such, a Simple Scan for Hidden Nodes will detect them. Then it is a simple process of elimination to discover the Pocket Hacker wherever it is Hidden.

As for the Agent and its Payload. It is entirely impossible to load the Agent with the right programs to accomplish what it needs to do, since the Agent will ALSO be affected by the Crappy Comlink. That Rating 3 Agent becomes a Rating 2 Agent on a Crappy Link. As such, you just cannot be proactive enough. Now, the easy solution for the Hacker is either do it himself (risky ands likely to get him caught if he sticks around; reason you wanted a Robo-Hack to start with) or use a Better Suite of Agent/Program Loads and Target Higher End Comlinks. Unfortunately, those are the 'Links that you likely want to avoid. AS it stands, targeting a Rating 1-2 Comlinks is ludicrous, Simply because they are the Average Joe's communication interface, and are likely to get you nowhere.

I don't think this program does what you think it does.



I don't know about how YOU use VR, but I certainly don't use VR while wandering around a mall.



So no, I don't think the average Joe wandering around a mall is going to be in full simsense VR.

Also note the rules section at the end of the Reality Filter.



Some shlub running a 2-2-2-2 comlink with a Reality Filter (rating 2, due to the device limits) is going to have 4 dice in this test.

Odds that the server wins: rather poor.

A "Public Library" nexus node (Arsenel p50) has a System of 4 and a Response of 5. That's 9 dice to Joe's 4. Joe would have slightly less than 50-50 odds even in a "Small Matrix Cafe"; 5 dice to his 4. Most wage slaves aren't going to bother, because almost every time they activate their Reality Filter, they lose, and the jumbled mess of icons reduces their system's Response.

I know exactly what it does, and the Reality Filter would be for the Comlink, not the Mall's/Store's/Library's/Etc Node, since the user benefits from his own Iconography Scheme, and he does not need to log into a node that is public as a Data Request will handle most interactions (if not all) required. And the results of that Data Request will be translated into his Reality because the information goes to his 'Link.

Yes, he would need to be in VR for this benefit (Duh?), which is why it may not always be applicable, but I cannot see anyone not actually buying it (and even if they don't due to price, it does not affect my argument in the least). *shrug* Another reason why I default to 2-3 active programs (Analyze, Browse (or Agent) and Encrypt (possibly Ergonomic)) on the Rating 2 Comlink for my main argument. Whether it is 2 or 3, the 'Link downlines the second the Hacking Agent is loaded. No way around that one. It is, after all, a Crappy Comlink to start with, but is likely the one that the Joe Average WageSlave can afford)

It pretty clearly works in AR, too, though as the +1 response isn't conditional at all. Unwired also introduces a bunch of AR-display augmenting/changing programs, so its quite possible(a near certainty, really) that a common use program can also works similiarly to its cheaper brethren.

Have you made a hacker recently?

Have you used Reality Filter recently?

It's awful. It's a 50-50 (or lower) chance of getting a bonus with the risk of a crippling penalty. And that's for a shadowrunner. As soon as Joe Shmoe activates his on the Library's node with his 2-2-2-2 comlink, loses the roll off, his comlink crashes. That's right crashes. He's not at a response of 1 running a minimum of three programs (as you're so keen to point out). If he's running all 3, his comlink ends up with a Response of 0, and it freezes up.

ITT: Commlink rules about program limits are retarded, news at 11.

Also, if you want to be technical, your pocket hacking commlink doesn't actually need to run jack shit on the other guy's commlink. It can hack in just like you do and do things remotely.

Many times when the rules talk about lowering RESPONSE on a commlink (apart from running an X amount of programs) I prefer to simply apply it to all response TESTS. So whenever the game calls for a test involving the response attribute THEN you are affected.

Rules quote on that?

I'm digging through the books right now, and almost every mean thing a hacker can do to a target system that effects response will freeze the node when response is reduced to 0.
(DDOS, Sparky echo, Nuke*). Many other sections refer back to "Response Degradation" on page 212 of the core book (which offers no insights into what happens at a response of 0).

*Nuke specifically needs to reduce both System/Pilot and Response to 0.

Yes...
Yes...

I guess we differ on whether it is Awful or not. *shrug*

I see the Reality Filter as a program that the masses use a lot. Only high end Sculptured systems will have their own reality (High Level Corporate R&D, Entertainment Industries, Etc), for the most part, so the common user will not run into those all that often unless they choose to (so Obviously no RF on the Local Library Node). Why? Becasue the Corps want to sell a program that allows the user to experience his OWN reality the way he wants to experience it (makes them feel less oppressed). Which is why the RF is a Common Use Program. Yes, as mentioned above, there would be some places that do spend the money to go all out and sculpt their system. Virtual Disney, Virtual Six Flags, Virtual Mideval Times, etc. But they are likely the exception, not rule.

It can, yes, but not with the Constraints placed upon it by the Scheme. Mainly becasue they want deniability, and distance, prior to the actual transfer of money. At which point, the Agent has to be loaded to avoid such little things as being out of range due to Wi-Fi Inhibition.