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Wounded Ronin
So, a short while back, there was a very fun thread someone started on bullshido.net about how if someone were legally barred from owning firearms in the US they could nevertheless legally own an "archaic" weapon system such as a cap and ball black powder firearm. The discussion then focused on the awesomeness of shooting a carjacker with a blackpowder weapon.

Thread: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=118509

Funniest post from that thread:

QUOTE
Very true. I have a persistent nagging desire to keep one of these fuckers loaded up in the console of my truck just for the hell of it. Could you imagine the look on the faces of the cops arriving on the scene after someone smoked a carjacker with one of those things?

The best part is the cops could get in on the fun because they'd have to take it out and shoot it to empty it before they could take it into evidence. Ha ha.



So, then I am thinking, in Shadowrun, one of the themes is paranoia. Every item can have some form of tracking associated with it. The gun you buy from your fixer may be hot. When the topic of cased versus caseless ammunition comes up, whether or not it's a realistic assertion, someone always says, "Oh with caseless you leave less evidence behind."

What better way to get around all the creepy big-brotherism of the setting than running with a brace of cap and ball revolvers? You manufacture your own black powder, you don't drop casings, and a large caliber slow-velocity lead bullet going through someone's chest is still super deadly.

In terms of game statistics, I'd make a black powder revolver perform worse against ballistic armor than a contemporary firearm, due to greater energy of smokeless powder and full metal jacket bullets in the contemporary firearm. I'd also give it a seperate set of range categories a bit shorter than a contemporary firearm, again due to the lower energy of the blackpowder load.

Perhaps the smoke caused by repeated firing of your blackpowder weapon could cause visibility based penalties for everyone involved in the firefight standing near you (including yourself) and people shooting at you.

Depending on how detailed you wanted to get, the GM could also come up with an extra roll for failure to fire depending on how long the blackpowder has been sitting in the gun, or the weather conditions. That's why you have a brace of pistols.

It's hard to imagine a better way to make your shadowrun character a raging badass than by having him terminate his cybered nemesis with a blackpowder weapon. Your enemy pulls out his caseless rifle, thinking he's the man, and then pop, low velocity lead bullet with a called shot, and the ownage ratio just gets absolutely huge in your favor since you were running a cap and ball pistol versus his G11.

If you think reloading a centerfire revolver in the middle of combat is masculine and badass, think how much more masculine and badass it would be to reload the cylinder on a cap and ball revolver...in combat. You'd have to have antifreeze running in your veins.

Yeah...if I ever play Shadowrun again, I'm going to make a character who runs cap and ball revolvers, and a musket with a bayonet.
kzt
No, a revolver with a bayonet!

You do need to buy the caps. Making blasting caps, detonators, percussion caps or primers at home is crazy dangerous.
Manunancy
There's no reason not to mix the old and the new - have your blackpowder gun fitted with an electric ignition system and you'll get rid of many problems - I'm not sure the electric ignition system from a gas cooker would be enough but odds are there's some heavy-duty version available that won't be traced as 'weapon part' and can be scrounged drom a dump rather than bought.
Seriously Mike
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Nov 19 2012, 08:13 AM) *
There's no reason not to mix the old and the new - have your blackpowder gun fitted with an electric ignition system and you'll get rid of many problems - I'm not sure the electric ignition system from a gas cooker would be enough but odds are there's some heavy-duty version available that won't be traced as 'weapon part' and can be scrounged drom a dump rather than bought.

That's just my kind of insanity, I love it!
But, what you should be worried about, I'm thinking about how to do it in real life. biggrin.gif
Mister Shed
You run into distinctive style territory though - not many people are going to be running around with black powder firearms so if you're the only one (or one of a few) in an area then there are going to be far fewer suspects for the cops/corp/gang to look at than if you were to pick up something conventional at the last minute and ditch it right after the job.

And they'd be pretty easily identifiable too as a lead ball is gonna leave a visibly different wound pattern than a full metal jacketed bullet would.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Mister Shed @ Nov 19 2012, 09:36 AM) *
You run into distinctive style territory though - not many people are going to be running around with black powder firearms so if you're the only one (or one of a few) in an area then there are going to be far fewer suspects for the cops/corp/gang to look at than if you were to pick up something conventional at the last minute and ditch it right after the job.

And they'd be pretty easily identifiable too as a lead ball is gonna leave a visibly different wound pattern than a full metal jacketed bullet would.


LOL at the reaction of the downtrodden police investigator at finding a John Woo massacre where everyone was shot by lead balls.
Lionhearted
Isn't blackpowder like... unreliable, incredibly smoke producing, very variable in its burn and messy as hell?
Not sure if the pros outweights the cons
Draco18s
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Nov 19 2012, 12:13 PM) *
Isn't blackpowder like... unreliable, incredibly smoke producing, very variable in its burn and messy as hell?
Not sure if the pros outweights the cons


Pros:
totally legal

Cons:
everything else
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Nov 19 2012, 09:13 AM) *
Isn't blackpowder like... unreliable, incredibly smoke producing, very variable in its burn and messy as hell?
Not sure if the pros outweights the cons


It does vary in burn rate depending upon its form and consistency (Batches should be consistent, though); and it does produce a lot of Smoke, but it is not too messy... Besides, I love the Smell of Blackpowder (cordite too) after a gunfight. smile.gif
Lionhearted
Isn't it totally worthless when wet aswell?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Nov 19 2012, 10:58 AM) *
Isn't it totally worthless when wet aswell?


Pretty much. Easy to keep dry, though. smile.gif
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Nov 19 2012, 11:13 AM) *
Isn't blackpowder like... unreliable, incredibly smoke producing, very variable in its burn and messy as hell?
Not sure if the pros outweights the cons


It's also corrosive.

But hey, in the SR world people also choose to go up against fire teams swinging a crappy Cold Steel katana, so...
almost normal
Make it past security on the way to a meet. Go to the bathroom. Have the Jury Rigger quality. Make a blunderbuss out of the urinal piping. Make ammo from ceramic shards from a toilet (Surprisingly dangerous). Step out of the bathroom while dual wielding pisser pistols.
Lionhearted
He needs a oneliner!
Like... "Now Im pissed!"
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Nov 19 2012, 11:07 AM) *
It's also corrosive.


Indeed, Necessitating that you clean your weapon meticulously after firing it. smile.gif
Stahlseele
QUOTE
The best part is the cops could get in on the fun because they'd have to take it out and shoot it to empty it before they could take it into evidence.

this is actually an interesting question . . how would they be able to use it as evidence for anything, if it has to be fired to be used as evidence and thus is changed and not the thing that was supposed to be used as evidence?
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Nov 19 2012, 01:43 PM) *
Indeed, Necessitating that you clean your weapon meticulously after firing it. smile.gif



As a user of a cap and ball 1858 Remington revolver, yeah it gets messy. Most people nowadays use pyrodex pellets, but even that is still messy. Also, glitches could be bad and should be more often (cap falls of and jams the cylider).

Side note: I was talking to a forensics expert a while back about how they would do forensics on a black powder pistol revolver. She noted that the lever mechanism used would leave distinctive marks on the the ball that could be used to track it back to the weapon used. Another downside is that any explosives sniffer is gonna go mad when you get near it (unless you vaccum seal the entire gun).
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (almost normal @ Nov 19 2012, 01:08 PM) *
Make it past security on the way to a meet. Go to the bathroom. Have the Jury Rigger quality. Make a blunderbuss out of the urinal piping. Make ammo from ceramic shards from a toilet (Surprisingly dangerous). Step out of the bathroom while dual wielding pisser pistols.


That would you get you two shots of 9P(f) damage, probably with a penalty to your shooting because, you know, you're using a frigging pisser pistol!

Make them count. Preferably by putting them right up against a motherfucker's temple before you pull the trigger.


Still, lethally McGuyvering yourself a couple of shotgun pistols out of the contents of the Men's room is pretty fecking awesome.
Critias
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Nov 19 2012, 12:48 PM) *
Pros:
totally legal

Cons:
everything else

This.

Yeah, you're bypassing (potentially) some forensics issues, and earning some major style points. But as weapons go, by today's standards they pretty much suck. Your concealability, rate of fire, accuracy, armor penetration, etc, etc, are in the crapper.
Lionhearted
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Nov 19 2012, 08:30 PM) *
McGuyvering


My friend told me that in portuguese there's a word for "doing a mcguyver" can't for the life of me remember what it is, however every language needs a word for that imho
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Nov 19 2012, 12:40 PM) *
My friend told me that in portuguese there's a word for "doing a mcguyver" can't for the life of me remember what it is, however every language needs a word for that imho


I will ask my Brazillian friend later what this word is.
KarmaInferno
"This guy was shot with a black powder weapon! How do we find the shooter?"

"Look for the guy with a black powder gun. There's what, like six in the entire state?"



-k
Modular Man
QUOTE (almost normal @ Nov 19 2012, 08:08 PM) *
Make it past security on the way to a meet. Go to the bathroom. Have the Jury Rigger quality. Make a blunderbuss out of the urinal piping. Make ammo from ceramic shards from a toilet (Surprisingly dangerous). Step out of the bathroom while dual wielding pisser pistols.

Gonna do that sometime. I'm currently thinking of tinkering something out of the Street Sweeper anyway, that's slightly the right direction. If ever in need of sharp rubble to be fired at enemies, visit the restroom!
Combine with a small camera and standard detonator cap (to be found in the core rulebook), this can be triggered wirelessly and will make for a good trap barring a corridor.

The Street Sweeper is also the only weapon in Shadowrun 4 that actually uses blackpowder and a musket firing mechanism, or at least the description text says so. There's even prices for cubes of condensed black powder.
Can also be loaded with pretty much anything. Ball bearings double as a nice impromptu trap. Maybe even small packages of debris, held together with a low-grade glue for loading and carrying purposes, will do. Alternatively a bunch of nails, held together by a rubber band, could also do. Heck, I've even been thinking about launching a micro grenade (in a protective casing) this way, but some of these stunts still require a lot of GM fiat smile.gif

Granted, this is not really on par with the original idea, and shooting an actual blunderbuss would be way more awesome. Sadly, I'm playing a character who I'd get killed this way.
Halinn
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Nov 19 2012, 10:40 PM) *
"This guy was shot with a black powder weapon! How do we find the shooter?"

"Look for the guy with a black powder gun. There's what, like six in the entire state?"



-k

The problem would be that it's not a registered weapon, and why should the police know that you have or use black powder weapons? Especially if you get a little gunsmithing going on in your Redmond hideout.
Achsin
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Nov 19 2012, 08:47 PM) *
I will ask my Brazillian friend later what this word is.


Desenrascanco
Critias
While we're on the subject, don't forget the old Remington Streetsweeper, the jury-rigged, instructions-for-download-on-the-Matrix, black-powder-cube-taking, shotgun from Cannon Companion.
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Critias @ Nov 20 2012, 06:19 AM) *
While we're on the subject, don't forget the old Remington Streetsweeper, the jury-rigged, instructions-for-download-on-the-Matrix, black-powder-cube-taking, shotgun from Cannon Companion.

And... you beat me to it. The street sweeper from arsenal is the worst shotgun in the game by most objective measures, but it's dirt cheap to own and operate and because of this is common enough on the streets that it won't rack up distinctive style for you, and in fact may implicate a gang or the like.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Critias @ Nov 19 2012, 03:19 PM) *
While we're on the subject, don't forget the old Remington Streetsweeper, the jury-rigged, instructions-for-download-on-the-Matrix, black-powder-cube-taking, shotgun from Cannon Companion.
And reprinted in Arsenal, so that design isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
ShadowDragon8685
A Street Sweeper was the very first firearm discharged in my game.

A dirt-poor ganger wannabe shot one point-blank at the neotenous little elf when she woke up with amnesia in Redmond.

She was wearing an Urban Explorer jumpsuit and Lined Coat. She didn't even feel a thing, despite him unloading from close range.



Then she whipped out her taser and double-tapped him in the nuts. You better believe he felt that.

(Then an enormous Newfoundland dog saw her, fell in love with her, and sat on his chest, while another growled menacingly at him with her hugging it from behind. He felt that, too.)
Draco18s
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Nov 19 2012, 11:07 PM) *
A dirt-poor ganger wannabe shot one point-blank at the neotenous little elf when she woke up with amnesia in Redmond.


Reminds me when one of our players decided to ride his bike to the meet with the Johnson through the Barrens. A couple of orc gangers stepped out of a doorway in front of him.
"No problem, I draw my katanas"
The one orc fired his shotgun, knocking the PC off his bike and almost killing him.
nezumi
I remember one of the books (maybe in SR2?) had stats for a home-made pipe-rifle, a la Fallout 2.

But I am still a little confused about the advantages. A character with the gunsmithing skill can remove any tags, serial numbers, firing pins, etc. from a hot gun. And while owning a black powder weapon may be legal, I can't imagine walking around with it loading and shooting people is.

But if you're going to do it like that, you may as well do it well. Replace the stock with carbon fiber, the barrel with ceramic, perhaps with rifling. The balls replace with some sort of alloy which is soft enough to fit into the rifling without being machine-fitted. Or replace it with specialty rounds. The black powder replace with a water-proof explosive, paired up with an electric igniter. Install your smartlink.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (nezumi @ Nov 20 2012, 10:38 AM) *
I remember one of the books (maybe in SR2?) had stats for a home-made pipe-rifle, a la Fallout 2.

But I am still a little confused about the advantages. A character with the gunsmithing skill can remove any tags, serial numbers, firing pins, etc. from a hot gun. And while owning a black powder weapon may be legal, I can't imagine walking around with it loading and shooting people is.

But if you're going to do it like that, you may as well do it well. Replace the stock with carbon fiber, the barrel with ceramic, perhaps with rifling. The balls replace with some sort of alloy which is soft enough to fit into the rifling without being machine-fitted. Or replace it with specialty rounds. The black powder replace with a water-proof explosive, paired up with an electric igniter. Install your smartlink.


The other way to look at something like that is have a melee combat specialized physad and make his weapon a musket with a bayonet. It's his spear with reach bonus that can also shoot.

As a GM, in a melee heavy campaign, I'd consider assigning a penalty to sub-optimal or improvised melee weapons versus specialized weapons, i.e. a modern carbine with knife-like bayonet fixed versus a giant musket with gigantic spike bayonet.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Nov 20 2012, 08:55 AM) *
Reminds me when one of our players decided to ride his bike to the meet with the Johnson through the Barrens. A couple of orc gangers stepped out of a doorway in front of him.
"No problem, I draw my katanas"
The one orc fired his shotgun, knocking the PC off his bike and almost killing him.


Was he unarmored or something?
almost normal
Everyone's unarmored if you can aim.
almost normal
Everyone's unarmored if you can aim.
Halinn
QUOTE (almost normal @ Nov 20 2012, 06:57 PM) *
Everyone's unarmored if you can aim.

-1 dice pool for every point of armor you're bypassing. Generally not worth the tradeoff.
almost normal
Depends. If you can aim for a tire on a moving vehicle for a minor penalty, you can aim for the head, which in general is unarmored.
Lantzer
QUOTE (almost normal @ Nov 20 2012, 06:10 PM) *
Depends. If you can aim for a tire on a moving vehicle for a minor penalty, you can aim for the head, which in general is unarmored.


As Halinn said, that head shot is -1 dice per armor point bypassed. There are no explicit hit locations in shadowrun.
Draco18s
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Nov 20 2012, 01:56 PM) *
Was he unarmored or something?


He had armor, but it was a close range tight spread shotgun blast. The armor is what kept him from being a red smear on the pavement.
DnDer
<double post, sorry>
DnDer
Too much "Assassin's Creed III" has got me thinking this would be an AWESOME idea.

And it's so very not.

But it'd still be cool when you gear up, instead of "shoulder holster" or "battle harness" you tell your teammate that you need to get your "brace of pistols." Just for the look they'll give you.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (DnDer @ Dec 3 2012, 03:51 PM) *
Too much "Assassin's Creed III" has got me thinking this would be an AWESOME idea.

And it's so very not.

But it'd still be cool when you gear up, instead of "shoulder holster" or "battle harness" you tell your teammate that you need to get your "brace of pistols." Just for the look they'll give you.
And the line "Don't go off half cocked." becomes a very real piece of potentially life saving advice for that person nyahnyah.gif
almost normal
Brace of pistols = piece of string.
FuelDrop
How about modernizing the brace of pistols with a bunch of Krime stoppers? quickdraw 2, fire each twice (They're single shot so use separate actions), discard, repeat.
That single-shot heavy pistol of doom also works for this.

For bonus points have them all upgraded for high powered rounds to represent the inaccuracy of ye olde unrifled weapons.
almost normal
well, you'd need the quick draw power, and wrists of adamantium. Other then that, maybe?
FuelDrop
QUOTE (almost normal @ Dec 4 2012, 09:02 AM) *
well, you'd need the quick draw power, and wrists of adamantium. Other then that, maybe?

This is why people invented cyberlimbs.
almost normal
Cyberlimbs + adept powers = not so much.
Snow_Fox
black powder weapons are notoriously finiky. DLN's husband reneacts and we've experimented with his musket.

For weird look on the face-in New york i stopped a guy from pushing into my aprtment with a wakazashi. He tried to push in the door ad stopped cold when I put the edge to his throat. What was even better was the double take the cop did when writing it up. I think he was expecting to have to do a little editorial shuffle to not mention a fire arm stopping the guy, but when I said 'samurai sword, THAT got a oduble take as he looked up at me.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Dec 4 2012, 12:08 AM) *
not mention a fire are stopping the guy


*Stumbles over this*
ShadowDragon8685
I think she might have typoed "fire axe"?
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