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kzt
It's NYC. Fire arm. As in a pistol that one somehow didn't have a license for. Which is actually very common in NYC from what I've heard.
Draco18s
QUOTE (kzt @ Dec 4 2012, 03:19 PM) *
It's NYC. Fire arm. As in a pistol that one somehow didn't have a license for. Which is actually very common in NYC from what I've heard.


Ah that makes sense.
ShadowDragon8685
That does make more sense...

Though, wielding a fire axe at a criminal would be pretty badass, too. Better yet, do both; one of you draws a wakazashi, the other draws a fire axe. Caught between a samurai and a viking, most people would soil themselves.
Halinn
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Dec 4 2012, 09:26 PM) *
Though, wielding a fire axe at a criminal would be pretty badass, too. Better yet, do both; one of you draws a wakazashi, the other draws a fire axe. Caught between a samurai and a viking, most people would soil themselves.


My money's on the pirate standing off to the side with his brace of pistols.
Lionhearted
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Dec 4 2012, 09:26 PM) *
Better yet, do both; one of you draws a wakazashi, the other draws a fire axe. Caught between a samurai and a viking, most people would soil themselves.

Actually axes were quite uncommon, most weapons found from that era are swords and spears. The axes that existed were mostly balanced throwing axes or you know... tools. They didn't have horns on their helmets either. There was horned helmets, but those were for cermonial purposes and didn't show up until way later.
Sorry, I have a severe allergy against the pop culture perception of vikings. wink.gif
Critias
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Dec 4 2012, 04:56 PM) *
Actually axes were quite uncommon, most weapons found from that era are swords and spears. The axes that existed were mostly balanced throwing axes or you know... tools.

I think "quite uncommon" might be putting it a little strongly. There's plenty of physical evidence of axes being used, but there's also very strong anecdotal evidence like the Bayeux Tapestry and all kinds of mention of axes (used for combat) in the old sagas. They couldn't have been that rare; they're too useful, and too common in areas that had a strong Viking influence (you can track the spread of the Danish Axe outside of Scandinavia by regions that had contact with Vikings, down into Ireland, Normandy, etc). Heck, they even became something of the badge of office among Huscarls and the like.

Now, I'll cheerfully concede that they were just one of many weapons used (you didn't see hordes of screaming Nords with just axes), and I'll certainly agree -- not that you mentioned it -- that the mental image of "battle axe" most people get is much more fantasy two-headed greataxe nonsense than anything historical accurate...but I don't think axes were as uncommon in Viking hands as you're making them out to be.
Lionhearted
QUOTE (Critias @ Dec 4 2012, 10:13 PM) *
All kinds of mention of axes (used for combat) in the old sagas.

I can honestly not remember this... Is this from the danish or icelandic sagas? or from the british isles?

QUOTE
Now, I'll cheerfully concede that they were just one of many weapons used (you didn't see hordes of screaming Nords with just axes), and I'll certainly agree -- not that you mentioned it -- that the mental image of "battle axe" most people get is much more fantasy two-headed greataxe nonsense than anything historical accurate...but I don't think axes were as uncommon in Viking hands as you're making them out to be.

Yes this was what I was getting at. There's also finds of weighted maces and warhammers, but by far the broad hiltless sword was the most common weapon. I think "not the most prominent" would be more accurate. Still small throwing axes would be the most common axe used in combat.
almost normal
The Saxons brought along battleaxes that completely tore up the weak-wood shields of merry ol`.
FuelDrop
When you think about it an axe is a good raiding weapon:

It's multipurpose. An axe can kill people, cut down trees, break open doors, all sorts of things. a sword may be better at killing people, but it lacks flexibility. To my mind if you're storming across the country and want to save on weight then that sort of thing is important.

It's common. A village blacksmith might never have seen a sword before you took him prisoner, but it's a safe bet he knows how to fix up a damaged axe. They might not be in every household, but compared to swords axes must have been fairly common so if yours breaks you can probably find a replacement. it won't be designed for combat, sure, but it's better than your sword breaking and having to pick up a different weapon with a completely different technique.

However, I admit I'm an armchair historian at best and this is all speculation.
Draco18s
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Dec 4 2012, 08:13 PM) *
A village blacksmith might never have seen a sword before you took him prisoner, but it's a safe bet he knows how to fix up a damaged axe.


Scythes make wicked good polearms too.
Critias
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Dec 4 2012, 05:34 PM) *
I can honestly not remember this... Is this from the danish or icelandic sagas? or from the british isles?

One sec, lemme do some digging. It's been a few years since my last big research project on how awesome Vikings were (grad school had me focus on American history more), but I'll see what I've still got lying around. wink.gif

The Fóstbræðra saga talks about a few (including when Snorri dies to a cleverly-hidden short axe held behind a shield), the Sturlu saga mentions an axe used specifically to hook and drag someone and the Þorskfirðinga saga details someone trying a similar hook maneuver to grab someone's shield, where in the Eyrbyggja saga the axe is used to hook a wall (and then climb over, ninja-Viking style). The Valla-Ljóts saga discusses the different axes that Ljótur carried based on his mood, the Brennu-Njáls saga mentions the haft-wrapping (for protection/weight) some warriors did, while the Harðar saga has axe combat (where a plucky warrior kills six guys despite being surrounded, until the head flies off his axe and he dies). The Þórðar saga has someone using the back-end (non-bladed) of his axe to knock a dude out and take him prisoner. The Króka-Refs saga, Fljótsdæla saga, and Eyrbyggja saga all have axe combat (against the equally popular spears and swords), but detail the axe being used to parry and block.

So they're there, as part of the cultural memory, being used as weapons, decorated and customized like weapons, being used to break into forts, bashing in heads, knocking dudes out, parrying and fighting, and even using specialized combat maneuvers that you couldn't mimic with a sword or spear. I'm certainly not denying they were popular as tools also, and -- again -- I'm not saying that the popular image of nothing but axes is quite right, either...but they certainly had their place, and that place was often on the battlefield.

QUOTE
Yes this was what I was getting at. There's also finds of weighted maces and warhammers, but by far the broad hiltless sword was the most common weapon. I think "not the most prominent" would be more accurate.

Yeah, absolutely. I just had to be a little nit-picky when you made it sound like the Viking axe in combat was as mythical and made up as those goofy horned helmets, was all. smile.gif

There's just too much evidence to the contrary, ranging from archeological finds to mythical battle accounts and more reliable historical accounts that include them as weapons, not just tools. I didn't want to see 'em written off!
QUOTE
Still small throwing axes would be the most common axe used in combat.

Those wicked little throwing axes (especially linked with the Saxons, as they spread down into England) were really cool, yeah. But it also makes sense they'd be more common (small/lighter/cheaper to make, easier to carry, and they evolved to become status symbols as much as weapons).
Lionhearted
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Dec 5 2012, 01:13 AM) *
To my mind if you're storming across the country and want to save on weight then that sort of thing is important.

Not if you have a longboat that can carry alot of cargo smile.gif
QUOTE
It's common. A village blacksmith might never have seen a sword before you took him prisoner, but it's a safe bet he knows how to fix up a damaged axe. They might not be in every household, but compared to swords axes must have been fairly common so if yours breaks you can probably find a replacement. it won't be designed for combat, sure, but it's better than your sword breaking and having to pick up a different weapon with a completely different technique.

Well... They would most likely bring their own blacksmith along for the trip. As for the captured blacksmith, it would probably be easier to plunder the village armory then trying to explain to the blacksmith what he wanted.

As a sidenote. A lot of the travels was for trade and exploration, an oft forgotten fact next to the conquering... So a lot of the time they just traded for their swords.
QUOTE
However, I admit I'm an armchair historian at best and this is all speculation.

The best kind! smile.gif

QUOTE (Critias @ Dec 5 2012, 01:58 AM) *
One sec, lemme do some digging. It's been a few years since my last big research project on how awesome Vikings were (grad school had me focus on American history more),

It saddens me how the wealth of culture from these parts are often ignored. Not just the other aspects of the vikings, but also the older things. Especially the myths. The oral tradition of the Finns or the Sami is practically untapped... Tis a pity.

QUOTE
The Fóstbræðra saga , Sturlu saga ,Þorskfirðinga saga , Eyrbyggja saga ,Valla-Ljóts saga discusses the different axes that Ljótur carried based on his mood,Brennu-Njáls saga,Harðar saga, Þórðar saga , Króka-Refs saga, Fljótsdæla saga,

That's extensive, Personally I only read parts of the poetic edda and Kalevala... Really want to learn more of the icelandic folklore although Alfùrféyn is such a fascinating and romantic idea.
Hat off for you sir

Oh, for those wondering þ is pronounced th-.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Dec 5 2012, 01:50 PM) *
Oh, for those wondering þ is pronounced th-.


And when þ wasn't put into the printing press, the substitute y was used instead.

So "Ye Olde Bookshoppe"?

Pronounced "The"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVVTk7yy4kU
Vegetaman
QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Nov 19 2012, 07:27 AM) *
That's just my kind of insanity, I love it!
But, what you should be worried about, I'm thinking about how to do it in real life. biggrin.gif


Just thinking out loud, but you could make some badass wicked looking gun like a derringer with two stacked barrels and basically car-style spark plugs that get fired off to ignite the powder charge. Pretend there's a magneto reaction when you pull the trigger, lol. grinbig.gif cyber.gif
Snow_Fox
I meant fire arm, I've ocrrected that. me with an axem, unless I went ape shit would not be intimidating, I'm 4 foot 13 ok (thats 5' 1" for those not on their 3rd martini tonight) but a sword held to a throat, that got his attention. NYC is notoriously difficult to get a fire arm permitt. As a result a great many people who move there own guns and don't go through the hoops needed to make it legal.

DLN's husband had his WW1 pistol sotred at a friend's house in Pennsylvanai before they moved here.

The other thing with black powder weapons is the cartridges are not what you'd call ..small. A .75 brown bess musket ball is 3/4 of an inch in diameter and with a 1210 grain charge behind them it's like carrying a half cigar with a metal ball at the top for each shot. Compare that with the size of a modern rifle round or even better an smg round just mass alone it's an issue. The one advantage of black powder is it should give you an advantage against ballistic aromor because the sheer mass of the bullets hitting with kenetic energy will do a lot of damage. the reason there were so many amputations in the days of black powder weapons was because the kenetic energy shattered bones.Modern bullets cleanly clip them but back then they were destroyed to the point there weren't bones left to set.
Manunancy
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Dec 6 2012, 04:38 AM) *
The other thing with black powder weapons is the cartridges are not what you'd call ..small. A .75 brown bess musket ball is 3/4 of an inch in diameter and with a 1210 grain charge behind them it's like carrying a half cigar with a metal ball at the top for each shot. Compare that with the size of a modern rifle round or even better an smg round just mass alone it's an issue. The one advantage of black powder is it should give you an advantage against ballistic aromor because the sheer mass of the bullets hitting with kenetic energy will do a lot of damage. the reason there were so many amputations in the days of black powder weapons was because the kenetic energy shattered bones.Modern bullets cleanly clip them but back then they were destroyed to the point there weren't bones left to set.


It depends of what exactly you're shooting with, but soft leads bullets fare quite poorly against body armor - kinetic energy wise the low velocity soft lead bullet sucks (velocity is squared, which means it's a bigger factor than mass). They have more momentum (straight speed times mass), but you usually end up with a flatted bullet and a bruise rather than the actual injury of a bullet going through the armor and messing the target's insides.
Kliko
Actually short axes and Dane-axes are pretty common early medieval/viking era weapons. Thye're pretty effective and the cost of steel put into them is as small as possible. But any early-medieval re-enactor could have told you this. Swords were expensive!
Manunancy
QUOTE (Kliko @ Dec 6 2012, 08:36 AM) *
Actually short axes and Dane-axes are pretty common early medieval/viking era weapons. Thye're pretty effective and the cost of steel put into them is as small as possible. But any early-medieval re-enactor could have told you this. Swords were expensive!


Spears use even less metal and were the 'base' weapons who ended up in the average grunt's hands - though some sort of big knife for both utility and last dtich or close in fighting was probably ubiquitous. Though reworked farm tools were probably about as widely used as spears, though more amongst levies than regular (or at leas tsemi-regular) troops. The various bills, hooks, war forks faucards and the like falls in that category, either directly or havign evloved from such makeshit predecessors.
Lionhearted
QUOTE (Kliko @ Dec 6 2012, 08:36 AM) *
Swords were expensive!

A lot of the people that went viking either was wealthy or became wealthy, you were far likely to find a poor man carrying a spear then an axe as Manumancy pointed out. Bear in mind these weren't outfitted armies, every man was required to own and bring his own weapon and armor...

On topic.
Why not take it to eleven? Surely you can build a portable blackpowder cannon with modern materials.
almost normal
Danger? You're putting alot of faith in science and manufacturing, which is something no person in their right mind wants to do.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (almost normal @ Dec 6 2012, 10:33 AM) *
Danger? You're putting alot of faith in science and manufacturing, which is something no person in their right mind wants to do.


What danger? They are actually not all that hard to make, especially with modern technology and techniques. *shrug*
Hell, when I was 15, I made a Balck Powder pistol from Scratch (materials) with the aid of my Uncle and his machine shop. *shrug*
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 6 2012, 02:21 PM) *
What danger? They are actually not all that hard to make, especially with modern technology and techniques. *shrug*
Hell, when I was 15, I made a Balck Powder pistol from Scratch (materials) with the aid of my Uncle and his machine shop. *shrug*


When David Hahn was 15, he built a nuclear reactor in his backyard.
wink.gif
(Actually, he was 17, but he'd been working on it for 6 years or more)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 6 2012, 01:44 PM) *
When David Hahn was 15, he built a nuclear reactor in his backyard.
wink.gif
(Actually, he was 17, but he'd been working on it for 6 years or more)


Yes... And you make my point for me. smile.gif
almost normal
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 6 2012, 01:21 PM) *
What danger? They are actually not all that hard to make, especially with modern technology and techniques. *shrug*
Hell, when I was 15, I made a Balck Powder pistol from Scratch (materials) with the aid of my Uncle and his machine shop. *shrug*


Yes. Because the amount of black powder put into a small pistol is the same amount of black powder as you'd put into a large cannon. *shrug*
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (almost normal @ Dec 6 2012, 02:37 PM) *
Yes. Because the amount of black powder put into a small pistol is the same amount of black powder as you'd put into a large cannon. *shrug*


If you have the capability to make a cannon, you can do so safetly.
There is absolutely no need to be afraid of doing so. If you don't have such a capability, or are afraid of the process, then you have no business doing so. *shrug*
almost normal
If you don't have a healthy fear of explosives, you shouldn't be anywhere near them. *shrug*
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (almost normal @ Dec 6 2012, 02:45 PM) *
If you don't have a healthy fear of explosives, you shouldn't be anywhere near them. *shrug*


I do not FEAR explosives. I have a Healthy RESPECT for them, and worked with them for many years. BIG Difference.
But, if you want to let your fears rule you, that is okay by me. smile.gif
almost normal
I choose to use fear, not pretend it doesn't exist like some bullshit 80's macho stereotype. *shrug*
Draco18s
QUOTE (almost normal @ Dec 6 2012, 05:49 PM) *
I choose to use fear, not pretend it doesn't exist like some bullshit 80's macho stereotype. *shrug*


You don't have to be afraid of using a dangerous object in a safe and responsible manner.

You do need to be aware of what it can do if misused, but that doesn't mean you need to be afraid of it.

(Case in point: the guy who invented TNT got the Nobel Peace Price for it.)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 6 2012, 02:50 PM) *
You don't have to be afraid of using a dangerous object in a safe and responsible manner.

You do need to be aware of what it can do if misused, but that doesn't mean you need to be afraid of it.


Thank You Draco18s. Well Said. smile.gif
And Almost Normal, There is nothing about Explosives that makes me fear them, but as I said, I have a healthy respect for them. Of course, if you have never worked with them, well, then your fear is understandable.
almost normal
QUOTE
to consider or anticipate (something unpleasant) with a feeling of dread or alarm


I'd rather have it in my head that the giant pile of explosives can explode and be ready for it then act fearless and get my balls blown off.

I like my balls. But that's just me. *shrug*
Lionhearted
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 6 2012, 10:50 PM) *
(Case in point: the guy who invented TNT got the Nobel Peace Price for it.)

And the guy who invented nitroglycerin founded the Nobel prize committee through his will. He did so because of the destruction his creation had enabled, he wanted the scientific advances that benefitted humanity to receive more recognition. Ironically the peace price wasn't in the original will. It was added later for reasons I cannot recall right now... Funny how things work out, neh?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (almost normal @ Dec 6 2012, 02:53 PM) *
I'd rather have it in my head that the giant pile of explosives can explode and be ready for it then act fearless and get my balls blown off.

I like my balls. But that's just me. *shrug*


Who says that I act stupidly around explosives (Because in this case, that is what fearless means). I RESPECT their potential to cause harm, but no more so than I do with a Firearm. I understand them, and I respect them, therefore I do not have to fear them.

Again, if fear works for you, that is fine, but it is extrememly limiting.
almost normal
You're the one who said you have no fear of explosives, not me. *shrug*
In fact, you said if you weren't fearless, you shouldn't be around explosives. *shrug*
I'm just pointing out how terrible that advice is. *shrug*
Lionhearted
Fear makes people act irrationally, it makes them more likely to make mistakes or hurry up a process to get it over with.
Better then to approach it calmly, armed with knowledge and a caution served from knowledge and respect, not fear.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Dec 6 2012, 03:24 PM) *
Fear makes people act irrationally, it makes them more likely to make mistakes or hurry up a process to get it over with.
Better then to approach it calmly, armed with knowledge and a caution served from knowledge and respect, not fear.


Thank You Lionhearted. What more really need be said?
almost normal
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 6 2012, 05:33 PM) *
Thank You Lionhearted. What more really need be said?


*shrug*
Halinn
QUOTE (almost normal @ Dec 6 2012, 10:53 PM) *
I'd rather have it in my head that the giant pile of explosives can explode and be ready for it then act fearless and get my balls blown off.

I like my balls. But that's just me. *shrug*

Don't forget the fact that (most) explosives don't just randomly explode. The energy needed to start the reactions is beyond what happens in a steady state.
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (almost normal @ Dec 6 2012, 03:49 PM) *
I choose to use fear, not pretend it doesn't exist like some bullshit 80's macho stereotype. *shrug*


An ITG discussion in an archaic firearms thread? I feel like I should have put odds on this


As others have said:

If you have the skills and means to make black powder weapons and materials from scratch you probably can do the same for modern weapons or retrofit them to not have the traceability issues your trying to avoid.

Inferior technology is inferior in pretty much every way.

Jurisdictional Loopholes: Remember that SR is a dystopia with themes of police privatization, corporate extraterritoriality, and bureaucratic decay. In short legal loopholes only work on oppoents who actually honor them either through obligation or binding.

Also I would never ever ever ever take legal advice from bullshido, and would certainly check with an actual lawyer or local DA before I did something as stupid as storing a black powder weapon in my vehicle for an extended period of time (it's a stupid idea anyway). In many states what will actually get you is not whether the weapon is or is not a firewarm but if it is concealed or not.

Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Dec 6 2012, 07:47 AM) *
On topic.
Why not take it to eleven? Surely you can build a portable blackpowder cannon with modern materials.

because the risk of being blown up by your own ordinance is amazingly high at that point. again you have the issue of just the bulk of your ammo and the risk of loose powder means even a cigarette might set you off.

Artillery were still using linstocks to fire cannons at Waterloo in 1815- a lit fuse- but musket technology had changed to flintlokcs more than a century earlier. The troops armed with these weapons, fusils, we used to guard cannons because unlike matchlocks, they didn't need a constant open flame but with a modern world the risks come back. A cannon's cartridge has leaked some grains onto a trolls jacket and then he lights up a stoogie- There's also cost. Each cannon shot takes a lot of powder. Currenlty black powder costs $15-20 a pound and finding a source for that much can be difficult
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