Less, actually. The amount of the world that is "industrialized" - as in cities and roads - is roughly 3%. 30% may be liveable but not lived upon.


Actually it's not. Not one single scientific experiment since scientists have tried to create life in a lab has succeeded, and they've been using ideal situations (or some of them that are impossible - the Miller-Urey experiment used impossible atmospheric conditions. for example). It is safe to say that it is a fact that life cannot spontaneously arise. Life can't even be artificially created in laboratories, to any extent I've seen.

By life I mean a full working cell. Scientists have had limited success creating amino acids, but their success in this field is the equivalent of creating a "P" and a "Я" and claiming to have written a complete Encyclopedia Brittanica. Amino acids are required to make life, but they are not themselves life, in much the way that letters are not books.


This is the best way to go in this discussion.


The aliens came to steal metahumanity's soy and krill farming techniques!


I didn't know of any controlled experiments testing for the absolute radiological decay rates either. In other words - so what?


The point of this thread is not to debate how long or even whether life could have evolved or not. I could easily go on about this subject for tens of thousands of words, but this is not the proper medium for it.


Where did that come from?


1) Spellcasting Foci and Aspected BC do not add on to a Magic Rating.

2) Psionics is still the equivalent of a gun against melee versus normal Awakened. Not to mention the lack of a need to muddle up game mechanics any more - there is literally no need of that mechanic in the game.

Critter powers are magic.

You could argue that they're treated as magical as there's no other description for them. Compounding the issue, they can't be counterspelled.

I'm not really pushing this angle hard, I'm just saying an avenue could possibly exist.

Sure, but if all we had were very limited ressourced ans Rome could throw legion after legion at us, we'd meet our end really, really fast. Not to mention Romans would be perfectly capable of capturing and torturing our soldiers, and of observing how they talk long-distance talk into their mikes.


Why would that be a deal breaker? 'No man left behind' is a Western obsession, not even general human behavior. But robots produce better results, sure. Technically, we could well send people to Pluto.


They'd have next to no contact and would diverge fast. If the colony survives at all. And we have had a civilisation capable of sending humans to space in theory for maybe 100 years. Of some 3.000.000.000 years.


A planar portal scenario makes much mroe sense in the setting. Of course, the Horrrors is pretty much exactly that ...

And I still disagree with the Spaceships. Spaceships, contrary to American fiction, usually are NOT WELL ARMED. They keep down mass as best as they can, and weapons are dead weight nearly the entire time. A mishap colony ship? Maybe. That'd be a District 9 scenario then, though. An invasion? There is absolutely no way that would make sense for the aliens. None. Except maybe religious shenanigans, but that would horribly anthropomorphise again.


Point taken, but most land is used for some country to some extent. We also use the seas in part, but most of it is an abyss we have little idea of. And that is still our own world.

I never considered how alien that alien life could be until now.
I've always thought that it was very silly how pretty much every alien race in sci fi fiction is hominid to some degree, it's by no means an ideal shape.
But only now do I realise that I couldn't even begin to imagine how alien life would look like...

No, critter powers are explicitly magic, as they depend on the Magic attribute. There is no Psi attribute in Shadowrun.

I'm reminded of an old dumpshock thread, in which someone pointed out that black IC should/could be a telepathic raygun.
Because it already kind of works like that, since you can use remote sim modules to hook up to someone - it literally doesn't even need to be on their person.
The implications of this are what the thread was based around: with this revelation the 'hotness level' isn't based on the connection type your target is using. If you take that knowledge and apply it, then theoretically its possible to make remote death and brainwash(psychotripic ic) rays.

(Thread also had some interesting ideas, like technomancer counterspelling, if anyone cares to dig it up. I can't find it at the moment, and dumpshock's search is notoriously bad.)


I'd also consider technomancers close enough to psychics to count - at the very least, all technomancers can brainwash people for 5bp. Some can do it by touching you, others may even do resonance quests and research to turn PAB's into a complex form or metamagic.

And if a technomancer can learn to bring non technomancers into VR by turning into their bioelectric fields with a touch, its a fair bet that learning to do so over distance and also configuring people to BE technomancers(after all, deus did it) is within the realm of possibility. Those techno's with electrosense have even begun learning to sense the world around them without using their physical senses. That counts as ESP in my book.

In any case, I think we can all agree the 'psionic tradition' rules are pretty silly.

Please elaborate on how the conditions in the Miller-Urey experiment were impossible. Wikipedia says that there would be more kinds of molecules than the ones that were used, but also that similar later experiments that included that also produced amino acids.

And while it's not life, it's more like creating the entire alphabet (and a couple of extra letters on top of that), and stating that every known book could be written with those letters. We might not have figured out how to put the letters together to make words yet, but it's a lot closer than you claim it to be.

Here's one step closer that has been done: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteinoids

Hahahahaahahahahaha. You're great man <3




Not even close. It's like ink. And then saying ink is like having letters, and letters is like having a book, and a book is like having a complete guide to building a motor vehicle, and having a motor vehicle is like having a working one in motion with gasoline, fluids, and everything.

It's one of the most basic components. It's not even close to being on the same scale of complexity of life.

I don't agree at all.

Sorry, what I meant is that I wish that they didn't mention it at all.

No. Just having ink would be the metaphorical equivalent having only the most basic ingredient, i.e. the molecules used in the experiment.
Having all the letters, if I combined them in an infinite amount of completely random ways, somewhere along the way I would have the collected works of Feynman. Same as if I combined the amino acids in the infinite amounts that they can be put together, they would form the very complex proteins needed for it to be life at some point. The trouble is that we can't do that whole infinite combining thing.

Not necessarily. Infinity doesn't work like you think it does.

It does when I additionally specify completely random.

Except for Technomancers, of course.

Thank you. Someone agrees with me.

That's an awfully big assumption, and one completely unsupported by canon so far as I am aware. Resonance is a technological phenomenon; the powers of technomancers are all about interfacing with technology. I am not familiar with any depiction of psychic powers which focuses exclusively on that ability.

Yeah, Technomancers seem to fit the definition of psychics / psionics pretty well. Using nothing but their mind, they're able to affect the physical world. Although most of the "traditional" psychic powers would seem to come from Submerging...

Ummmm... Technomancy is NOT technological. It is the ability to interface with a Machine with no technological assistance whatsoever. The Point being that there is a mechanic that is not magic, that mimics Psionic potential. *shrug*

Really? Never heard of Cyberkinesis then, Huh? Been a Trope of Psionic Potential for at least 20 years.

Resonance is about bio-technological stuff...and not all powers of Technomancers focus exclusively on tech. Many of the Submersion powers are physical (E-sensing, Trodes, Biowires, Acceleration, etc)

Resonance is a technological phenomenon in the sense that it is related to and interacts with technology. Also, please note the word "exclusively" in the sentence, "I am not familiar with any depiction of psychic powers which focuses exclusively on that ability."


Each of those powers is about emulating technology. See above.

Technomancers do not emit "psi waves," "psi particles," "neural fields," or any of the numerous other technobabble terms used for psionic/psychic energy. Their brains simply include a structure for emitting bog-standard radio waves, and for interfacing with computers via that mechanism. The in-universe explanation for this has already been established: Deus experimented on a bunch of people and turned them into living radios.

TECHNOMANCERS ARE NOT PSYCHIC.

There are powers in Shadowrun, magic or otherwise, that emulate technology. Just because something emulates technology doesn't put it in one category or another, except maybe the category of "can also do with tech". There are also technomancer powers that definitely don't emulate tech. E-sensing and resonance link off the top of my head...


Really? Radio waves, invisible things that travel through the air directly from your brain to control the physical world around you - you don't think those could qualify as psionics? What's in a name, would a psi-wave by any other name be as powerful...

And a standard trope of psychics is that they have a part of their brain that is more developed or radically different than normal people's...


Shouting doesn't make your point any more valid

Each and every one of the powers you mentioned not only falls into the category of "can also do with tech," but emulate specific, identifiable pieces of technology: E-Sensing replicates an EMF meter; Trodes replicates (shockingly enough) trodes; Biowire replicates skillwires; Acceleration replicates wired reflexes; and Resonance Link replicates a good, old-fashioned radio.


Now you're playing games with semantics, the sure sign of a weak argument. Please name one non-obscure work (obscurity to be judged by common goddamned sense; some Ruritanian author in the 1890s who sold 42 copies of Radio Brains from the Future will not count) in which psychic powers operate by neurally-generated radio waves, and/or identify one Shadowrun sourcebook wherein technomancers are explicitly referred to in the crunch as psychic.

It looks like you are hung up on this technology thing. The Detect Truth spell can be duplicated by a lie-detector machine. Mindlink allows mental communication, which also apparently replicates a radio. So what? This only means that technology and "something else" might have similar functions.

I will admit Technomancers have been given a "technological" slant (it's in the name even ), but that doesn't disqualify them from being psychic.


It's not semantics to discuss the made-up words used to describe a made-up phenomenon. I notice you ignore my point about the brain, so since you're trying to be rigorous about this, it means you concede that point. Although I did edit that in a few moments after my original post, so apologies if it was ninja-edited for you.

You seem to be really fired up about this lighthearted discussion, for some reason. I don't think anyone is saying a SR sourcebook actually refers to technomancers as psychic, but they seem to fit the template remarkably well. I've been arguing from the duck-typing rule, where if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Detect Truth and Mindlink replicate only the effects of lie detectors and radio; Resonance Link replicates both the effect and the mechanism of a radio. The technomancer is explicitly sending information via radio waves. His nervous system, in addition to the normal properties of a metahuman nervous system, is also an organic radio, identical in its operating principles to the walkie-talkies you can buy in any electronics store. It is not magic, it is not psychic, it is a current running through a conductor and generating a modulated EM emission. The same is true of the other powers mentioned: they each replicate a piece of technology, not just the effects of that technology.


It's not just a slant; everything about technomancers, every aspect of their powers, relates to technology, either interfacing with it or emulating it.


Semantics is the study of meanings. Unless you're going to argue that made-up words are, by definition, meaningless, it is very much a semantic issue.


In fact it was ninja-edited, but that doesn't matter because the point is immaterial. In the supers game Aberrant, all superhumans ("novas," in the game's jargon) are empowered by an organ in the brain which ordinary humans do not possess, the Mazarin-Rashoud Node. Nevertheless, the only novas who could be said to be "psychic" are those possessing powers directly related to the mind, and even that is purely fluff. Crunchwise, there are no psychics in Aberrant, any more than there are in Shadowrun.


This is a case of you stretching the template so far out of shape that it becomes unrecognizable. The single most identifiable common thread among depictions of psychic powers in fiction is that they are explicitly identified as psychics, or psions, or psionics, or some other immediately related term. The other common thread is that psychics wield "powers of the mind," or some similar phrase. Technomancers fail the sniff test on both counts: the source of their powers is explicitly the Resonance, and psychics are explicitly Jossed in Street Magic.

Bottom line: you can call technomancers psychics in your game if you want to, but you need to understand that you are flying in the face of SR canon by doing so.

Resonance link does not just replicate any radio that I know of. Resonance link sets up a "one-way empathic link...the technomancer can discern the dominant mood and emotions of the linked companion." Mental images, emotions, whether the linked one is in danger...do these sound like a radio?

This is just one example of how the technomancer powers differ from technology. E-sensing allows sensing that someone else is a technomancer, not something an EMF meter can do. Resonance trodes allows dragging someone into hot VR, without that person having any network interaction of their own. No SR technology allows this.

But, again, I say so what? Just because some (many?) of the Technomancer powers replicate a piece of technology...the "psychic" part of it is that they do so without having said technology. And no need to access "mana" or anything else either. They do it all with the power of their brain.


I'm going to argue that made-up words that apply to made-up phenomenon don't require such a strict adherence to meaning as actual, real words that apply to real things. What standard dictionary did you find the meaning of "psi waves" in, again? It's the ideas these made-up words represent that matters. Call them psi waves or neural fields or whatever, it's the idea of an invisible something reaching out from someone to affect the physical world.


Not sure about this non sequitur. Other games' treatment of psychics really doesn't apply, does it? I'm not arguing that SR psychics are also psychics in the Aberrant game world.


You read my mind (psychic!) - I was going to ask for your definition of what makes a psychic. It seems that one of your ideas is circular, the idea that psychics are considered psychic because they're called psychic. Your other idea, that psychics are such because they wield powers of the mind...I guess we could get into a discussion of mind vs. brain, but I'd rather not. You yourself have said Technomancers get their powers because of an altered brain. How is this not "powers of the mind"?

I posit that the single most common thread among depictions of psychic powers is having effects on the physical world or on other people's minds using nothing but your own mind powers and nothing else. Technomancers fit this depiction very aptly.


You need to understand that this was more of a what-if discussion, and speaking for myself, was in no way trying to pretend or even caring that this is SR canon. I doubt anyone else was either, and so thank goodness the SR canon police can relax once more.

Yep, like a radio transmitting Simsense information to be precise.

Radio waves can be intercepted.

...and where does it say that Resonance Link works in static zones or under heavy jamming?

My question for everyone saying that Technomancers are NOT psionic is this... how are they generating those radio waves?

I don't know about you, but my ability to generate radio waves is non-existent.


@Sengir: where does it say that it doesn't work?

I don't know about you, but I don't consider my cellphone to have psi abilities. Might have something to do with the fact that EM radiation is a pretty mundane affair and has little to do with mind reading or levitation...



Technomancers use the same matrix as anybody else, they just don't need a commlink/sim module. That means if they want to transfer data, they need matrix access or Mutual Signal Range.

Yes, but your cell phone does have an antenna. Radio Antennae are notably not structures found in the typical human brain.




Technomancers use the Matrix because it's the dominant form of electronics on the planet. But a Technomancer who can find a way to interface with ancient gear can still technomance it. Find an ancient Soviet SCUD launcher? Yeah, you can technomance it, if you can (a) somehow make it wireless, or (b) have the Skinlink echo.

An antenna is a piece of electrically conductive material that, when in the presence of a fluctuating EM field, experiences local voltage changes and current flow. Neurons, muscles, tin cans, a loop of wire, all can be used as antenna to one degree or another.

Whether they are _good_ antenna is another question.

There wasa sci-fi story written way back in the 1950s ("Waldo") by Heinlein which explored the possibility of now-modern widely prevalent EM fields causing subtle physiological damage due to continuous low-level interaction with the nervous system.

Trivia: This was also the short story which invented the term "waldo" for remotely operated mechanical arms.

Except if you are are a TM. Read Emergence, Technomancers do not interact with devices by magic but by sending and receiving EM signals just like a commlink.

Other problems with calling Technomancers psychics:
1) Telekinesis, including the ability to create elemental effects by manipulating kinetic energies.
2) Telepathy. Psychics can talk telepathically (brain-to-brain communication) with people who are not themselves telepaths.
3) Body control can be done slightly with Acceleration and a couple others, but psychics also have been "known" to alter themselves with abilities more akin to Adept abilities.
4) Psychoportation (teleportation). Again, a staple of magic in many settings, SR has already explained this one away... for now.

Where are you getting these attributes you subscribe to "psychics" from Neraph?
Just curious, feels like I missed something with people stating what can and cannot be psychic...
The broad definition that I usually run into, as portrayed by fiction and real life "studies" all revolves around unlocking the hidden potential of the human mind, whatever this potential might manifest as.
TM's fit that definition pretty well imho.
I must say I greatly enjoy the TM fluff in this thread, gives lots of ideas.

Yes, TMs fit the definition of psychics, since it is a very broad one.

To demand they may fit the definition fleshed out in any other fictional game, movie or book does not make any sense at all.

Following that logic mages would not be mages for the lack of pointy hats.

Dungeons and Dragons. Babylon 5. Vladimir Taltoss. Phenomonon. Stranger in a Strange Land. Wikipedia.

I could go on.

EDIT: Also see this list, which includes levitation, healing, telekinesis, and other abilities that TM's can't do.

Ah but you don't have to possess ALL of the traits to qualify under a broad definition.
Wikipedia defines a psychic simply as someone capable of ESP, thus anyone with a form extrasensory perception can qualify for the definition. It's not so much about what they can't do but more about what they can do.
I mean it's not like its a recognised phenomenon with a rigid set of qualifiers, its just a catch all term for "brain powers"

Right, but the complete and utter lack of any of the more obvious or significant abilities would seem to disqualify TM's as psychics. It'd be like mages being unable to cast spells or summon spirits.

You mean except the most defining characteristic?
Being able to "feel" the matrix, if that's not ESP what is it?

So a subset of the Full abilities is not enough to qualify for the name: Psionic?
TM's are capable of Cyberpathy and Cyberkinesis (Pretty darn significant if you ask me). Niche abilities to be sure, but they do fulfill the core abilities of these powers. And, as was mentioned up-thread (by you even), they are also capable of limited Body Modification as well. Who is to say what they will be capable of 10 , or 30, or even 60 years in the future. *shrug*

Most Psionic Individuals do not start fully formed with all the powers possible in the Psionic Arsenal. Pyrokinetics, for example, are generally only capable of Manipulating Fire. Charlie McGee was a Classic Pyrokinetic (Get an Internet Cookie if you know from where). She could not talk to people psychically, or force them to do things against their will, or any number of other Psionic/Psychic Phenomenom. She was, however, undeniably Pyrokinetic, which is a Psionic/Psychic Discipline. *shrug*

This is why I said previously, that (assuming your playing your own version of the story and are not afraid to stray from canon) perhaps technomancers are an early form of psionics. The first and earliest form being the otakus, later being replaced by technomancers. Another 20 years down the road, and new forms of psionic capability other than cyberpathy/cyberkinesis begin to appear.

I'd say that the key reason to deny that TMs are psychics is the lack of what are generally considered the most basic, core abilities of a psychic, according to TV and popular culture:

Clairvoyance
Mind-reading
Precognition

And a little less common,
Psychometry
Communing with dead people.

Cyberpathy and cyberkinesis are way off on the fringe, such that most folks wouldn't even associate them with the word "psychic".
Magic really works better as a model than technomancy.

If those three are what it takes for you to consider something a psychic, then they already exist in SR. Magicians can do all that. If you then begin to cry "that's magic, not psionics", remember that that is just a label.

Thermographic vision would also qualify as ESP, so trolls and dwarfs are psionics, too?

Sight is one of our senses its not extrasensory if it enhances an existing sense

I don't mind that Technomancers CAN'T do those... that's not their ability. Also Teleportation breaks the game and that's why it's not allowed. I mean think about it, if a Shadowrunner could teleport, then as soon as things go pear shaped, *POOF*, the mage bugs out and leaves everyone else high and dry. EVERYONE would play mages. It would be the only logical character type.


No it has nothing to do with mind reading or levitation, but if you could make phone calls without your cell phone or a cybernetic implant, then you would be psychic.



Also AGAIN: How are Technomancers generating those radio waves? What process allows them to do what they do. Mages in Shadowrun can access the Mana Sphere. How are technomancers doing their thing... INDEPENDENT OF THE MANA SPHERE?

@KCKitsune


Well, if the mage is only active on the astral, he can do it. Free spirits get this option...
It is more about transporting stuff. Teleporting means, that as soon as you reached the objective you win. And the way out is the major problem in most runs.
So it is practically an I WIN BUTTON for half of the game.

Checking over telepathy again, it seems that the ability to only telepathically communicate with other TMs could possibly qualify them as telepaths, and by extention psychic. However, the vast majority of popular belief about telepathy is incompatible with that concept. And again, the ability to make literal phone calls with your brain is absent in popular telepathic belief.

That is an irrelevant argument. Whether or not psychic abilities and magical abilities use the same source of energy is not of concern. In most systems or beliefs, magical power and psychic power are interchangeable, with only the fewest abilities making each unique.