So I'm trying to figure out how a scenario with a hidden sniper on a roof top would work out in practice and I came up with two scenarios.

1. The sniper stays hidden
• He need to spend a complex action to be able to roll his infiltration eliminating the possibility for take aim
• the turn/pass he takes the shot the infiltration drops, the sniper can lock on and take a called shot.
Is the defender considered unaware(unable to roll surprise) if he didn't beat the infiltration previously?
or is he allowed to roll surprise normally provided he spots the now not hiding sniper?

2. Sniper not hiding, but aiming!
• The defender are able to roll perception vs the not hidden sniper to become aware (which can still be tricky with good position and ruthenium coated armor)
• Sniper may spend unlimited actions taking aim/locking on (provided the target is moving) receiving benefits up to half his longarms/sniper rifle skill.
• Sniper may not(?) Call a shot as that wouldn't break the take aim. (re-read the rules and it's explicitly stated that you can)
•Target is surprised if the sniper is undetected.
a) Surprise is resolved normally if the sniper is spotted and act upon it
b) the sniper is spotted and do not act upon it??

Edit: Added edition tag

Camoflage keeps a sniepr hidden even while shooting. Camoflage is handled via the Disguise skill.


The defender should be considered completely unaware for the very first shot, presumign his perception roll does not beat the Sniper's infiltration and/.or Disguise (Camoflage) roll(s).

Keep in mind, that a good "hidden sniper" is going to be using an integral silencer/suppressor, and probably subsonic rounds, and maybe Electronic Firing. Together, those three amount to a -9 to perception checks to detect the weapon being fired at all, as well as to perception checks to localise the firer's position.

I prefer having a sorcerer as a spotter, who can then summon a spirit to give Conceal to the sniper, thus really screwing the chance of finding him. And of course, if you have enough distance between you and the target, there's almost no chance they'll ever see you before you fire off the shot. Hell, with Conceal, even after the shot, they're extremely unlikely to spot you. Change position, and prepare another shot. They're not going to get defence - the shot'll hit them before they get any indication it's coming in.

If I'm reading this correctly the target is always allowed to roll surprise, however they receive +3 if they have spotted the attacker (assuming the attacker acts on being spotted, if not... uh?) while the attacker receives +6 for setting an ambush.

and guys. Im not out to execute the players Wanted style. Just to spook them a bit.

If you just want to spook them, just fiat it: they don't spot the sniper, they fail the surprise check, and ... the sniper misses. One shot, then he pulls a fade.

Yes, but good luck with actually making that roll. First of all the roll should be secret so you are unlikely to spend edge. Then there are a lot of negative modifiers that all apply:
-2 Perceiver is distracted, -2 Object not in immediate vicinity, -3 Object far away, most likely -2 Interfering sight. So even before visibility modifiers you have a penalty of at least -7.

It gets even worse if the sniper is an adept with Combat Sense. [Edit]The Surprise roll, that is.[/Edit]

Even a successful Perception roll will not negate the +6 the ambusher gets and ambushers are entitled to the perception roll as well (for another +3)

I'm not sure how you want to spook the PCs, but if you want to do it on behalf of an NPC, use capsule rounds with dye. They will know that they had no chance at all to avoid the shot but no harm came to them.

Well I'm not a fan of handwaving which is why I'm trying to get the rules down. Also it's good knowledge for when I actually want to hurt them.
The Sniper is a prime runner part of an Ares striketeam I intend to use as re-occuring rivals... The rooftop snipe is their introduction to this member of the team.
Funnily enough her street name is Fade.

I don't think a single one of them have a perception DP over 10, and she got ruthenium armor...
Sounds like I should simply resolve it as a surprise roll where the sniper got +9

I like the painting the target scenario, sounds like something someone with an superiority complex would do.
"I could kill you right now, but I won't because that's no fun"

If you want to do this you need a redshirt, because someone is going to die.

An Ares firewatch sniper is going to kill whoever you target if you roll it, plus get away. The sniper is covered by s F6 concealment, plus camo, plus probably silence. With probably 20 dice against no defense. Plus the sniper is either the start of a direct assault or is covered by the rest of their team, including the other snipers.

Overall, having a competent sniper as recurring foe is only good if your players really like rolling up new characters every game session and you don't mind that every move in the entire game becomes a paranoid search for the sniper. You might as well have a recurring foe whose schtick is dropping laser guided 2000lb bombs on the players houses as they sleep.

Well they're not going to have to worry about it constantly, I intend to use the team episodically so they know when they have to worry about them.
Seem like something I have to practice extreme caution with using however. If handled fairly it should be manageable. No magical omnipresence, opportunities to engage her while she's at a disadvantage etc.
GM petting is not my thing and at the end of the day if authenticity have to make way for a good game experience. So be it, I play with my players, not against them.

Even a ganger with a sports rifle can be dangerous to lethal for a pc. But the most fearful sniper is a rigger with a few sniper-equipped chameleon blimp-drones with gunnery 6+3(Control Rig Booster Nanites).

With PCs are we talking about the unaugmented face with 10 dice to his DR pool or Sir Soakalot the street sam with 25+ dice?

Against a ganger with an 8P AP-1 Sports rifle more like the former.
Against a 2 Initiation cybered Warriors Way Adept Sniper, with 24 Dice (before targeting) who ignores up to -12 on penalties (Adept Centering+Centering Focus R5+Heightended Concentration) and a Barret 121 with AP Flechette Ammo (War!), even Sir Soakalot is dead.

Whelp! That's way beyond the recommended for a superior foe of their team. What's heightened concentration? I can't find it in Core or SM.

Heightened Concentration is broken, is what it is. It's in the Digital Grimoire, p. 18, and costs 1 power point.


The way it works is you use a Complex Action to choose what negative modifier you'd like to cancel out. You only ever need to use another Complex Action if you want to change which specific modifier you're canceling. It works on pretty much anything, even recoil.

~Umi

Its in Digital Grimoire, or in the German SM. I just noticed i can easily get a Technomancer Command Rigger to a Gunnery Dicepool of 29+Hit on a Sensor Targeting Roll, without a diagnostics Roll from a Machine Sprite - chargen legal.

Sometimes I'm very happy my group don't read these forums

Why does he have a Street Name? Is he Moonlighting? Does the sniper even have a reason to introduce himself that way? The purpose of a sniper is to take out high value/dangerous targets at long range without being seen.

I'm not sure, that kind of person would be recruited by Ares.

If the PCs are aware that a sniper could be in the area, after such an introduction, they will probably either refuse the job or the gameplay will be very much bogged down as they will probably check for possible lines of fire, remain indoors, where possible etc.

Sorry for the double post. Delete please.

Former Tir ghost not even her team mates know her real name.


If your good enough at something you can afford a few quirks.


They're not really in a position to. Currently they're full-time employees for an Evo subsidiary, the running is a side assignment they got elected to participate in. Sure they may jump ship eventually, but as is they take the assignments they're given.
This particular run is a race to the finish for a common objective, the Ares team is not so much out to get them as they are to get the objective.
It makes sense for the sniper (in her point of view) to show these up-starts that they're outclassed and should know their place.

Yes I'm going lightly with the mirror shades and shooting for a more cinematic experience.
Partly because I don't want to get bogged down fail-safe scenarios, partly because real mirrorshade paranoia is quite overwhelming for someone new to the universe.

Also, I know it's restrictive but the players are brand new to the game and benefit from having some structure.

Doing something as unprofessional as announcing your presence and skill level and possibly equipment does not count as "good enough" in my book. It it's the first time that happened I just have to ask, why now?

Then somebody screwed up in giving them those assignments. As far as I can tell, there is nothing the team can do against a sniper and even less if he is part of a team of special forces.

It would be a lot more professional to either avoid the team altogether or take them all out (possibly non-lethally).

While structure may help, I think you are using a structure that neither fits the players nor the characters. If you use a full-fledged Ares Strike Team (where at least one member is a former Tir Ghost) against a group of starting characters in a more or less straight forward confrontation, there can be only one outcome. The strike team wins, the only question is how many of the PCs will remain alive.

Don't forget that while a Strike team will only be a handful of guys, they will have a lot of infrastructure, like drones in the sky, access to all sorts of databases, better equipment etc. Do your PCs have similar resources?

Let me stop being a smartass and simply urge you, in the strongest possible terms, to not go there. Snipers are completely horrible recurring foes. They are either a joke or they kill player after player. For new players it's even worse.

Even a joke gang banger at 600 yards with a sporting rifle will eventually get lucky and it stops being a joke. At which point your game STOPS. When your players spend 30 minutes of real time trying to arguing with you about how to get into their house or to a meet without getting shot the fun is over.

I'd love to discuss my GMing philosophy with you, but please stop telling me how I can or cannot run my game?
I've been involved in several groups playing and leading for over ten years, I know the pitfalls and I've learned how to craft an enjoyable experience that works for my group.

You meant characters, I hope.

+1

Unless your PCs have seriously high soak pools sniper situations are very binary. Either the sniper misses or a character is dead. With a sports rifle the minimum damage will be (7_base+4_{called shot}+1_{net hit})P and AP -1. Real sniper rifles with better ammunition are worse.

An average ganger (as listed in core) is not even going to be able to make a called shot.
3 agi, -1 defaulting, +0 take aim (it's limited to half skill rating round down), +1/2 (smart link or laser sight) -6 range (he can't take aim!) He can't even make a long shot test with that.

For what it's worth: If you want to scare them, load the rifle with Hollow Point rounds.
It will allow for a higher soak pool while making sense for in-world reasons.
A sniper may go for unarmored locations, but there's no location system in place

I found that an Capsule round shot through their car door would still do 19S, admittedly he got +8 soak dice for that. Yes I know what kind of numbers were dealing with here.

That is not a sniper, especially if you give him a weapon he is not skilled in and don't give him a scope.
If instead you change the automatics 2 skill to longarms 2 and use a scoped sports rifle you are at a pool of 3 _AGI + 2 _longarms -0 _{range penalty with scope} -4 _{called shot} = 2. Those are not good odds but it is possible. If the attack hits the target has to resist 12P and the ganger can shoot again with a minimum damage of 8P and a dice pool of 6.

Not being likely to hit the target, does not make the shooter stand out more. Even if the shot misses the ganger can probably get away without being seen. That way he can try again later.

19S from a capsule round through a car door? That does not work at all. Stun attacks cannot penetrate barriers. Period.

I've used snipers in my SR4 game. The PCs gave the enemy early warning they were there, and time to prepare for them. When the signal was given to shoot, one of the PCs took enough damage he had to burn an Edge to live. I figure that's good enough - the PCs have the tools to survive a sniper shot (Edge), so if it makes sense for a sniper to go for them, so mote it be.

if you're looking for the Sniper to slow them down, I have 2 suggestions.

1. load the Sniper with Gel Rounds or Stick & Shocks, have orders that if the runner team gets ahead of the Ares team, take down 1-2 of them with non-lethal means, then leave. Most groups when confronted with a scenario where 2 people drop instantly will stop, take stock of the area & look for the problem.

2. Load Ex-Explosive Ammo & lay down a couple of shots in the ground near the PC's & then change positions quickly & do so again quickly, When small explosions start happening around PC's they tend to stop & look around for what caused the explosions

as a Sniper player, the second one is less professional as a Sniper normally will not give their presence, but a true professional will follow the orders given, if those orders happen to be, "use non lethal means" or something along those lines, they will come prepared to do the job given.

Also just to throw my opinion in on snipers, I'm playing a former Ares Adept Sniper, I throw 20 dice minimum & thats by being nice to my GM & ignoring several things I could do to improve my pool such as metamagics (the only metamagic the character has is Adept Centering) he rolls average damage of 8p+net-11p+net & with a 20+ pool he can take down even your decently Armored targets in 1-2 shots.

Where do you get that from?
As long as the modified DV exceed the vehicles modified armor rating the projectile goes through, in fact fists are listed twice as being normal DV vs barriers. No mention of stun damage not being able to bypass barriers.
Edit: Alright vehicles are not subject to stun damage.
But does that apply when shooting through the barrier?

I like that, probably stick to gel although because I haven't gotten around to unbreak SnS.

I can't find it either at the moment. It must be an oversight though. It makes no sense at all that you cannot ever damage a vehicle or barrier with stun damage but any projectile can penetrate any vehicle or barrier if it is aimed well enough.

Still 15 net hits with a called shot or 19 without?

Don't you use the normal DV attacking through a barrier and DV2 for bullets when you're aiming to destroy it.
Ohhh no,no capsule rounds does the same damage as gel rounds. The same as normal convert P to S

It only says that vehicles don't take stun damage... It's logical to assume the same shooting through the barrier.

Although following that logic it's completely impossible to throw yourself or someone else out a window...

SnS rounds are less broken for a sniper rifle (9P down to 6S, 1/2 impact instead of -3 or -4) than for if you're sticking them in a machine pistol or something.
Now considering that the sniper is part of a team you can scare the players by having his hacker buddy deposit photos of the PCs as seen through the sniper's scope with a warning "back off".
Also, he can hurt the PCs without touching them by taking down their extraction target, killing their vehicle as the cops begin to rock up, covertly eliminating their drone spotter network... You don't have to ever attack a PC directly with this guy to seriously inconvenience them.

How, at times, we have dealt with an enemy sniper.

I find that enemy snipers work best when your team has one of their own.

Sniper duels are the stuff of legends. They make good memories and give a chance for the PC sniper to really shine. Having a PC sniper gives the team someone with the knowledge, tools, and skills necessary to counter the threat on equal footing.

That said, because of the binary nature of the rules, it's pretty darn important to set up the encounter carefully, as well as monitor and adjust it as it plays out. The high base damage and armor penetration of a sniper rifle makes every hit potentially fatal, so care must be taken to ensure the players don't just get blown away before they have any chance to respond - because that's no fun for anyone involved.

An enemy sniper serves a very specific sort of purpose, story-wise. A sniper isn't scary in the way that a platoon of elite soldiers is scary, or the way a helicopter gunship is scary, or the way a cyberzombie is scary. You don't feel the same sort of fear that you do going up against overwhelming odds or overwhelming firepower.

A sniper is frightening because it is hidden. Its power is the fear of being stalked by an unseen hunter - the fear of trying to avoid dangers you cannot find, of trying to fight back against a wraith. The street sam who laughs at facing 10 to 1 odds suddenly finds himself jumping at every shadow and emptying his gun into thin air. The face who can bluff his way out of a room full of armed and angry yakuza suddenly doesn't know what to say, or who to say it to. The hacker who enjoys ruining people's days from well behind the front lines suddenly wishes quite dearly that his enemy wasn't quite so far away.

Realistically, the job of a sniper is to use underwhelming force to overwhelming effect. In a straight fight, a lone sniper against a squad of trained soldiers is a goner. To survive, and to thrive, a sniper must use the power of fear, and the strain of attrition. Snipers are not only assassins, but also time wasters. They tie up resources, force the enemy to respond to their presence, and then slip away into the shadows. Maybe a world class special ops sniper will take out an entire platoon alone, but it's much more common for a sniper to simply pin his enemies down, force them to either take cover or return fire. A skilled sniper knows that airstrikes and artillery fire are expensive, and that for the cost of a few bullets he can panic an entire camp of enemies into shooting at ghosts and leave them on edge for hours. A skilled sniper knows that a killshot is good, but sometimes a crippling shot is better. Killing a commanding officer might rattle his subordinates, but tagging him in the liver and making them scramble to drag him into cover and try to stop him from bleeding to death will get into their heads much better.

For a good story, you want your sniper to be frightening, not lethal. You want them to be unseen, but not undetected. You want the players to live in dread for a short while, but you also want to give them a golden thread of escape or retaliation. They need to know that they're in the deep end, but they also need to know that they can actually try to do something about it. Escape should be possible. Counterattack should be possible.

Snipers are ambushers. They get in position, take a few shots, and move. But they're ultimately not strong enough to handle a fair fight. If your players get too close, they can turn the tables with little to no effort. Likewise if your players take cover and slip away, the sniper is going to have a hard time following them.

~Umi

Have the sniper kill their ride.
Here's 3 reasons why.

1) It's still scary, because it could have been their ass.
2) It's irritating because it costs them a set of wheels, (until it is repaired, which takes days of automotive checks or a cred,) which grows the antagonism, serving story.
3) It's professional, because it helps remove the players from the McGuffin hunt without making bodies. (Creating bodies when you don't need to is the most amateur thing a corp agent can do.)

Also, snipers die when spirits get involved. So, one shot, and gone gets the job done with no messy complications.

Snipers and mages are kind of foils to each other.

Best way to find and attack a sniper? Spirits and astral projection.
Best way to keep a mage from ruining your day? Accurate, prioritized fire.



~Umi

Meanwhile, a mage with a telescope is a sniper...

Gah! Not starting this train of thought!
Where's the scratchout tags!

At least mages can't double tap, or shoot through walls.

*shudders*

~Umi

Spy Games, p.163 - the looking glass Spell. Make a ranged version of it, and you can shoot through walls with some preparation.

No!
You shut your dirty mouth!
We are not talking about assassin mages!

NEVER<MAGES<<<@!GAAH

Very well. Instead of magical snipers, this discussion is now about mêlée snipers.

To that end, I'm gonna go stat up a dwarven physical adept and give him a scoped mace.

~Umi

I've taken a look and there's a possibility for a team of PCs to spot a sniper.
Pre-shot:
Player DP 10 (highest value) +5 (group bonus)
-2 distracted, -2 interfering element, -3 target far away, -4 ruthenium polymer coating: -11
So that's 4 dice to make a Threshold 2
After shot:
to notice the gun: -4 silencer, -3 distance, -2 interference, +2 standsout, +3 actively looking
DP 11 vs threshold 2
Noticing the sniper: -4 ruthenium coating, -3 distance, -2 interference, +3 actively looking:
DP 9 vs threshold 2.

Ofcourse this is not very harsh conditions and the sniper can slip back into the shadows after shooting.
Currently considering having the sniper tag their vehicle, and possibly off one with Gel/SnS if they're stupid enough to get out straight away to check. As their first encounter that is. I'm starting to get a pretty good idea on how to use her. A lot of nice not-lethal/harrasment suggestions have come up.

This is only if the GM decides that it is a Success Test instead of an Opposed Test. Most people I have played with run it as an Opposed Test.

Well, unless the sniper is spending a complex action hiding or have prepared camoflague (which would serve as the threshold) the sniper is clearly not hiding

A sniper who is not hiding, is a marksman.

Since a sniper is basically in a static position when aiming, it would seem logical to have the result of his dissimulation test carry on until he moves - probbably at a penalty once the shooting starts.

Logically, after his dissimulation test, the sniper is in place, with his gun already pointed at the target area and he would neeed only minutes ajsutements for the final aiming. Especially if he's using a spotter (be it a drone, a buddy or a hack of the street surveillance cams) feeding the wide view directly into his scope and switches mode when the target is where it's supposed to be shot. There's zero change in location and almost none in position (beyond the barrel swining a few few degrees for the final aim) fro mteh moment he went into hiding. And not much more once the firing starts.

A somewhat similar situation would be a brwaler hiding around a corner - once he's there and until he jumps out, his dissimulation test should hold as as he's basically doing very little (of course if he peeks around for a look or lights himself a smoke he would need a fresh dissimulation check to get back into hiding.)

True at the same time you run the risk of turning the stealth group into invisibility.

This happens anyway: My players believe in using Concealment all the time. Mind, I think I started this from when I was a player, and would use everything at my disposal to go 'ninja' for my runs, ensuring that my team wasn't detected when we did infiltration missions.

As a GM, I'm willing to grit my teeth and accept it however - I can't punish the players for being smart and playing it safe. If they want to stealth mode through everything, that's their choice - and I'll do my best to accept the consequences of this -- it means most times, they can simply avoid any encounters they'd normally have.