Is Force 20 is ludicrous for a great dragon?

No?

Do the math using the crunch and find out what happens.

Dragons have no problem surviving the Drain we use at our table. *shrug*
Especially since it is Stun for Drain. *shrug*

What force are your dragons summoning?
How much magic do those dragons have?

We have no dragons in our game (they are not PC material after all), but the canon examples would not even be bothered. *shrug*

*Facepalm*

Pretty simple really...

The Game has a Drain Mechanic...
We use Edge to Resist Summoning/Binding, which possibly increases Drain.
At the Rates you say are common (Force 20 Spirits apparently); and since that Force (20) is below all canon examples of the Great's level of Magic that I have seen, the Drain is Stun Damage and those Dragons could easily survive that Drain.

I base this on the premise that was touted above of Typical Force 20 Spirits.

Therefore, Dragons have no problems surviving the Drain we use at our table. What is so hard to understand?

It's the "always" using Edge just because of the spirit's Force that is the issue. That Force 8 spirit suddenly goes from a challenge to successfully summon (let alone bind) to possibly becoming an instant brain melter. Drain is not that easy to get more dice to resist, and if someone goes to the trouble to sustain Increase Attribute spells for their Drain stats they're either suffering -4 to the summoning and/or binding or they have to have invested significant resources into appropriately powered Sustaining Foci for those spells.

And that is certainly a valid opinion. I happen to disagree with it. If you are capable of summoning a Force 8+ spirit casually at our table, you have EARNED it, not been created with the ability to do so out of the gate. *shrug*

And if you've gone to that kind of preparation (which is what it takes to do that all that casually due to Drain issues), you have earned being able to.

AS I said... So, The Edge expenditure should not bother you then. *shrug*

It still does because if they're always spending Edge to resist, then there's a pretty good chance that even that level of preparation won't help because while the preparation helps with the Drain, the summoning/binding pools aren't any better and suddenly with the Edge expenditure the spirit blows the summoner's pool out the water. Basically the Edge expenditure if done too much can make taking the Drain for no real benefit--failing to successfully summon the spirit--more likely. That is the problem.

Uh.

Great Dragons, by RAW, have Magic 12.

Check the Friends and Foes section of the core book.

I think he's trying to say Lofwyr and Hestaby represent the majority of Great Dragons in Magic rating... *facepalms at that thought*

Also, a GD only has 26 dice to resist drain, which if you're facing down 26DV worth of even stun drain, you're facing down 17 boxes of damage (pro-tip: GD's by the book have 15 boxes on their stun track).

And that's just summoning. For binding you'd have to drop Force down to 10 and face the same amount of drain.

Oh, and that's before the spirit adds edge to any of these tests.

Which adds up to deep fried Great Dragon brains for dinner just because they tried to summon a spirit. (Lofwyr and Hestaby notwithstanding, those two might be able to handle it, but I wouldn't bet on it)

Hestaby maybe not but Lofwyr's Initiate Level could easily be taken as average.

Slight correction:
The 26 DV was after Edge, but only on a summoning for a F20. 31DV if I account for average number of additional successes from exploding 6s. Only ~13DV not including edge.
Binding would average out to about 46 DV (including edge & exploding 6s).

Which does pretty much work out to "dead or unconscious dragon."
(46DV resisted by 26 dice on average works out to "3 boxes shy of overflow" assuming it was all stun)

Except that the "average" Great Dragon is printed in the Friends and Foes chapter of the SR4A core book. Both of those two would be rather exceptional even among Greats.

Yeeeeees.... the Great Dragons in the core book have magic 12. I think this was propaganda put out by the GDs (Probably Hualpa) themselves to get everyone else to underestimate them. It is ludicrous in my mind that a being that's been around, actively doing stuff for hundreds or thousands of years to have never initiated.

Lofywr is in the 20s, Hestaby in the 30s, and I would imagine some of the others above even that. Dunno about the rest of them, but 12 seems a bit low, even if it is RAW, to base any assumptions on GDs on.


*Not to say that a force 20 spirit wouldn't be a drain, but certainly not melting faces. Hestaby has a Great Form force 20 after all, that sources say she uses to mix cocktails.

Correctamundo.

Dragons are already granted initiations (normal dragons have MAG = ESS and ESS = 6+1d6). Oddly great dragons are not granted a random factor, it's simply ESS = 12.

All of the named ones have more than 12, sure. Look at it this way, the dragons that have just achieved Great Dragon status (which precludes any of the ones named so far in the stories) probably do have stats pretty close to those in the core book, but that isn't the point. The point is that TJ's house rule causes brain melting on anything up to and including the Great Dragon in the core book.

Fair enough.

Their Essence is 12 and Magic is 12 without Initiation. Dragons continue to grow as they age, at a certain point they are deemed to be Great Dragons. There is no indication of Initiation anywhere in the entry in the Core Book.

True, there isn't. Although it seems odd that dragons are the only critter which have more than 6 essence.
I've always treated it as a shorthand for initiations, due to the relationship Essence, Magic, and Initiations have.

Any Great Dragon is by its very nature going to have a name. TJ's house rule is essentially a matter of RAI vs. RAW. People always cry about high force spirits ruining their game, well making a spirit automatically resist with edge under certain circumstances solves that problem. As to a Great Dragon having difficulty, sure if he is allowing those sets of circumstances to rule or if he chooses not to use Twist Fate and negate the edge use.

Here's the thing.

Force 4+ does not "ruin the game."

Force "above your magic rating" ruins the game. And that already hurts you pretty bad to summon them, and is out of reach of most PCs to bind (by RAW, no edge involved*).

(Well, objectively speaking, there's a critical threshold on some spirit abilities, due to the way the rules are written, that end up breaking things in other ways. But for the most part these aren't a problem until Force 7+)

*Force 7 rolls 14 dice. The mage rolls 6 MAG + 6 Binding = 12 dice, looking for more successes. On average, that's going to be nil.

Essence has no relationship to Initiations. That is the biggest clue. As to it being odd for Dragons, well not really considering the connection to Earthdawn, the Dragons book for that game line goes into a lot of stuff, and even Fan Pro did Dragons of the Sixth World which used a lot of lore from that book. Dragons clearly hold a unique spot in the SR ecology that is still not entirely clear because they have hidden or rather covered up so many things, and anyone who knows anything ain't talking, well except maybe our little lunatic IE who has decided to wage all out war on dragon kind.

MAG = ESS + INI

As ini rises, so does magic. Ess for dragons is irrelevant as there are ZERO cybernetic or bio enhancements they can receive. Essence also has NO basis for being RANDOM.

That's the relationship I'm talking about (collapsing ESS + INI to just ESS as a shortcut).

I pretty much run spirits the same way in my game, and well it leads to spirits being more meaningful parts of the game. I really don't get the idea of GD's somehow being screwed by it.

Never said it did... I said that we tend to limit the Force of spirits in play by having them spend Edge if they are Force 4+. You can still summon Force 6-8 Spirits in the game, and we have had a mage or two do so in dire need (One at force 7 and one at Force . But it limits the occurrences of such spirits greatly, which is the intent. Otherwise, you have characters starting play with Force 10 spirits, which is a common occurrence apparently for many here on Dumpshock. Well, guess what... We do not have that problem in our game. *shrug*

Your Numbers are off, though. From what I have seen here on Dumpshock, the Summoner build has 6 Summoning, 6 Magic, Mentor Bonus (+2), Power Focus Bonus (+4, commonly stated to be stupid if you do not have this) and Specialty (+2). That equals 20 Dice (18 for Binding)... Imagine That. You can effectively go up to Force 10 (with that DP) at our table and have the opportunity to actually succeed at your summoning, and Force 6 for a Solid Binding. And if you are using the craziness: 9+9 for Base Drain is 18 Dice (Assuming you are a Human with Max 9's). With a bit of Karma, you can add in a few points of Initiation and a Centering Focus/Centering Metamagic, and you are well over 20 DP for Drain.

So, even with Spirits spending Edge you can conceivably summon a Force 10 Spirit. But you know what? It ain't so common at our table, and we do not even need house rules to accomplish that. We just allow the Spirits to use Edge. And you know what? We do not have spirit issues in our game, and there are TONS of spirits in play. Just not Force 6+, most of the time. They are in the Force 1-5 (Average of Force 3, I would bet) range. Which is where they should be, in my opinion, more often than not. *shrug*

Which is an Assumption on your part, but not rules. *shrug*

Indeed... Spirits are an extremely meaningful part of the game, they are just not ridiculous.

How? The only way to start play with bound spirits is to pay a number of BP equal to the services they owe you, and their Force is equal to your Magic rating. I guess if you're doing like 1200 to 1500 karma Karma Generation it could be possible, but at that point you're creating advanced characters so they should have commensurately higher abilities and resources at their disposal.

Ummmm... Easy... Play Starts, you summon a Force 10 Spirit. Never said that they were Bound Spirits.
Done... Play has started and you have a Force 10 Spirit.

And look, no advanced options... this is right out of character creation. And you can do this all day, since if the Spirit does not spend edge, he is likely to only get about 3.33 successes (on Average). You do not see this sillyness at our table when play begins, but it is apparently not that uncommon for this to happen at tables frequented by many Dumpshockers, from their own testimony. And they then complain that this is broken.

Again, we do not have this issue. The Edge expenditure completely solves this issue 100%. *Shrug*

They probably complain that it's "broken" after the GM sends one after them.

It doesn't "solve" anything. It's "fixing" something that isn't actually "broken" with a sledge hammer rather than a screwdriver, and it creates other problems--namely brain melting Drain where the Drain shouldn't be brain melting.

I do believe I stated as such.

"Always been my interpretation." I didn't even try to claim that anyone else thought the same way.

One of the Denver Missions episodes has Ghostwalker (aka: Doll-Maker, best dragon spirit summoner from the 4th age) listed as having a Magic score of 24 with an untold number of initiations along with several quickened spells.

As an aside, I would not be the slightest bit surprised to see that Dragons have metamagics that make it easier for them to summon exceptionally strong Spirits. I've seen it often alluded that Dragons (particularly Greats) have metamagics that are not known to the common populace.

Right out of character creation you also wouldn't have all that stuff you mentioned for resisting the Drain, which means that you're applying the house rule for nothing, as the Drain resistance bonuses are what is really necessary when dealing with high Force spirits. You said that if the player earns the ability to summon those spirits casually they should be able to do so, but with your house rule, even with all that Increase Attribute casting and bonding two Sustaining Foci to get out of the sustaining penalties (all that preparation is earning that ability) the character STILL wouldn't be able to reliably pull it off, and thus he isn't getting what he has earned.

And it's not just a matter of fluff.... it is actually encouraged by the rules... sidebar page 189.
"Most spirits resent attempts to bind them, as it turns the relationship between magician and spirit from a short-term contract between equals (or near equals) to a forced servitude for an extended period of time. ... A bound spirit can e forced to harm itself to further the magician's ends- ... binding spirits, then has far higher potentil for turning nasty than simple summoning does- especially if the spirit becomes uncontrolled."

That's why I disagree with TJ... 4+ is just too simplistic and arbitrary... and really rather weak spirits... especially if the spirit is weaker or equal in strength to the mage. A summoning may very well not be fought heavily... while a binding will be fought tooth and nail. It doesn't reflect the relative power of the mage... and even worse... if *EVERY* spirit is going to edge anyhow... I'm far more likely to simply burn spirits who do it excessively into a cinder by having them lose force to power my effects and kill them. The mage can retaliate and retaliate hard...

Edging to resist shouldn't be a guarantee... it should be a viable threat... carried through with discretion... not blindly applied to anything 4+. It shouldn't be a certainty or an uncertainty... just more likely the bigger the spirit gets...


Onto the rest....
Many problems here as well in other posts... just because you *CAN* raise magic to whatever your essence is without initiating... doesn't mean you should. Initiations are too damn useful (and CHEAP!)... It's highly likely the dragon has initations equal to half it's magic score as just a very rough guestimate... (look at all the metamagics... pick 6 and you get some very useful basic and advanced ones). Things like centering are too useful.

GD's aren't just a matter of age in SR... there is some magical ritual which is part of it if I remember the lore properly.

Ancient dragons from the last age are nowhere near the basic stats here... I think others are right a GD in the main book reflects an anonymous 'newly minted' lesser great.

Ancient dragons are the only ones mentioned with force 20 spirits bound... it's fairly safe to say that a magic 12 dragon is not that suicidal.

Exploding 6's aren't the threat on edging summons resists... it's the reroll failures use of edge... though you could o with exploding 6's and edge in advance if you want to go for pure luck and it can potentially work more... it's just a far bigger issue of 'luck'.

Also don't forgot is a GD has edge control powers... he can spend edge to 'negate' the spending of edge of the spirit... or worse.. to make the spirit reroll all it's successes after edge. The spirit edging is likely to simply only annoy/piss the GD off who may retaliate by sending a spirit or few to the spirits home plane to kill it permanently if it does somehow resist... or worse... succeed in the binding then force the spirit to kill itself by bleeding it's power to sustain something and lose a point of force per day until dead. (a GD might not care about his reputation with spirits... in a might makes right world... if that's their worldview). Yes... the GD even a force 12 can simply look at the spirit and laugh... you got 20 successes to resist... reroll all 20 and bring it down to a mere 7... for trivial amounts of drain in comparison! (and a *LOT* more services owed! far better than edging to reroll extra drain dice!)

But ignoring that...
But a big great like lofwyr (forget his initiate... but IIRC his magic was in the mid-20's... so I'll guess 20). Lofwyr focused far more on physical stats and physical stats than raw magical power like hestaby did... but he also focused very highly on logic and smarts which is also likely his drain stat. (it was in the high 30's if I recall correctly with willpower not that far behind, literally it's the highest logic score I've ever seen in game... which I kinda dislike as it puts it in the realm of completely alien intelligence so far beyond that I don't think any of the writers/plots can do it proper justice).

Force 20 spirit... rolls 20 dice on bind... round up 8 successes... 4 more from reroll edge... 12 total... 24 drain. Vs. 20 centering + 30+ logic + 30'ish wil== 80 dice... even without edge... the dragon is likely to soak that up... then merely rest an hour to remove stun before doing binding. (I always figured with attributes so high they already reflect quickened spells raising them to those levels; and an increase spell therefor won't do anymore... but as seen below... it's not even needed).

Okay... 40 dice to resist... once again... 13.. + 9 edge.. 22 successes... 44 drain average... Once again... with edge spent on drain highly likely to be fully resisted. Similarly... GD is probably like to simply bargain with high force spirits.


Outcome: the rules work fine... it is perfectly plausible and viable for the biggest of the big to successfully summon and bind force 20 spirits. Though it's foolhardy and suicidal for anything lesser. The force 20 example though is not a good one as that is exceptional in the extreme.

Also, any GD could just use twist fate and undo the spirits edge expenditure.

I had that in the post above Nil... not only that negating a use of edge is the weakest use of the GD's powers....

The latter half was simply to demonstrate that with the hugely inflated pools of some of the named GDs they could manage to soak even the heavy drain of a taxing binding like that.


But the nastiest use is the spirit is summoned gets 13 out of 40... rerolls the failures with edge and gets up to 21. The GD then spends edge and has all the *successes* rerolled... now instead of 21... the spirit only has 7'ish... the GD nets 14 extra services... and cuts the drain by a third.

True drakes have 8 essence.

48 total drain resist dice, 27 magic. Hestaby's slightly better than that. When considering the drain for greats and IEs, don't forget that they probably have the centering metamagic on top of their insane amount of initiations, though (not mentioned in ol' Golden Snout's writeup, but there is a bunch of his somewhat undefined amount that are not specified).
Harlequin also has a great form force 20, but again, centering makes the drain somewhat survivable.

That's not a bad idea.

I generally disallow summoning/binding of Force > Magic entirely, but this might also work, though - I guess - the difference is minor at best.

Bye
Thanee

In SR3. True Drakes don't exist in SR4.

In SR4, they are in Clutch of the Dragons.

And that's what I get for not owning a splatbook that was published two years after the last game I played...

Ahh... Sorry, Missed that.

Nope... NPC's are held to the same standard. *shrug*
The HIGHEST Force spirit we have ever run into is a Force 10 Free Spirit, and 3 Force 8's (In the Zero Zone we attacked). Everything else is also in the Force 1-5 range, with the occasional Force 6.

It solves the problem of players breaking the game with Spirits, which we do not have at our table, and many others complain of having at theirs. And we do so with the rules as they are written. Maybe you should ask your self why we don't have the problems that others complain about instead of assuming that we are casuing issues through our "Fix." *shrug*

It's just me, but I automatically calculated out what would be required for a F12 Power Foci using the SR3 rules....

[eyes bleeding] YEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssh! Yeah. Like that's going to happen. That's the magic version of having THOR shot on call.

Not to mention the TN's for designing it yourself, or the library/lodge you'd need...yerk.

-Tir

Make it a weapon focus and you got Mjolnir?