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tasti man LH
So, I'm planning a run for my PCs, in which they will be infiltrating/storming a farmhouse that's filled with a cell of militant TerraFirst! members.

Very, very militant...so militant, that one of them actually is packing a Panther Assault Cannon (4th edition version)!

Now, reading up on the fluff of this bad boy, I get presented with the idea that this is the go-to weapon for all heavy-weapons specialist runners. And that the fluff mentions the thing having a hell of a recoil. Which, you know, should be expected from a gun that's supposed to deliver the same firepower as main gun on small tanks.

In 4th, they state that all heavy weapons' uncompensated recoil gets doubled. The problem is that the Panther Assault Cannon fires in Single-Shot only.....and Single Shot weapons typically have no recoil. At all. Meaning that in-game, firing a Panther Assault Cannon incurs no recoil penalty (if we were to exclude the numerous recoil compensators).

...

...am I missing something?

I find it hard to believe that what's essentially a portable tank cannon to have NO recoil. I can't find any special note or rules regarding specifically just assault cannons (at least in Core), and I even went back to peek through at the old Street Samurai Catalog to see if that Panther has any special notes...and nothing.

I feel like I'm not seeing something important but I dunno...I'd rather not just slap an arbitrary recoil penalty on the gun and call it a day.

Help, please?

EDIT: Also, the enemy in question that wields the assault cannon may or may not have the Increase Reflexes spell.
bannockburn
Recoil affects everything beyond the first shot. As there is no second shot in a single phase, the recoil is there and it's massive*, but doesn't have any crunch impact at all.
Just fluff.

*massive means: The same as ... a shotgun. Or a LMG. Or any other heavy weapon. Crunchwise, that is wink.gif
Umidori
You can mod a Panther to be FA if you really want - at which point, the recoil most certainly matters.

It's easier to just mod to SA fire and add a single point of RC, though. Oh, and there's no rule saying an assault cannon can't use a Silencer either. wink.gif

Meanwhile, the crazy people who think that High-Powered chambering inflicts a -2 dice penalty on each and every shot that can't be compensated for by recoil compensators seem to think that it makes sense for a single round fired from a Holdout Pistol chambered for High-Powered rounds to suffer the exact same penalty as two rounds fired from an SA Assault Cannon. wacko.gif

~Umi
SpellBinder
You cannot. The Firing Selection Change is available to any gun that does not have an unusual loading mechanism or uses exotic ammo. As assault cannons all use exotic ammo (they have their own special "Assault Cannon" entry in the ammo list), they cannot be so modded.
Umidori
I can easily see that contested. Would you call flechette ammo exotic? There are weapons that can ONLY fire flechettes, after all.

There's nothing inherently unusual about the loading mechanism or the ammo of an assault cannon - it's just really big ammo. The limitation is intended to apply to things that are clearly not normal firearms, like the Screech Rifle or Lasers, things where you aren't chambering a physical round of ammunition into an ordinary firearm.

~Umi
SpellBinder
That's what I've thought too, but that's the same basis that I had thrown at me when mentioning making an assault cannon FA.

And as far as flechette ammo being exotic, actually, no, I wouldn't call it exotic.
NetWraith
I've had this problem for a while... I solved it by having a knock down test for the firer based on the damage resisted by body. Modified by bracing and such.

NetWraith
EDIT:: Double post
Umidori
Had what problem? Players running around with FA Assault Cannons? nyahnyah.gif

That's not the sort of problem that should be coming up commonly. For one thing, they're awfully big, noisy, and attention grabbing, so they shouldn't crop up too terribly often. For another thing, remember that anything the players and their characters abuse can and should be adopted by the enemy. Full Auto Assault Cannons are only fun and laughs until the runners are staring down the wrong end of one.

~Umi
tasti man LH
I might go with resisting Knockdown as suggested by NetWraith.

I do realize that the thing with Single Shot weapons is that their recoil is supposedly so bad, that the can't be fire again in the same action phase.

The reason why I bring all of this up (which I think I should have mentioned in the OP...I'll get to that after I finish this post) is because the guy that's wielding it, I'm playing around with the idea of giving him the Increase Reflexes spell..... rotfl.gif

(...too evil? lol)
SpellBinder
Should take a look at one of my favorite wish-list weapons, the Ares Thunderstruck (Arsenal, page 30).

Also in Arsenal, page 162, is an advanced combat rule Carrying Heavy Weapons. Aside from requiring a Body & Strength of 8 (each), the firer takes half the weapon's power (round down) as Stun damage, and can be knocked down. That is, of course, if you're not using something like a gyro stabilization unit.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Feb 19 2013, 08:59 PM) *
That's what I've thought too, but that's the same basis that I had thrown at me when mentioning making an assault cannon FA.

And as far as flechette ammo being exotic, actually, no, I wouldn't call it exotic.

"Exotic" is like musket balls or arrows or rockets. Or ghoul midgets.

Assault cannon rounds are just gigantic bullets.




-k
SpellBinder
Here's the start of a similar discussion from a long while ago on the subject of assault cannon rounds being exotic or not: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1053364

General consensus, as I understood it, assault cannon rounds qualify as exotic ammo.
Umidori
The "general" consensus in that thread seems to mostly consist of Yerameyahu, so I'd call it more a "specific" consensus. wink.gif

That said, why exactly are you against Firing Selection Change on assault cannons? Are modded assault cannons honestly a problem for you? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

For example, compare to sniper rifles. Why is it cool to have a FA modded Barret Model 121 (9P, -4AP, 14c), but a FA modded Panther XXL (10P, -5AP, 15c) is off-limits? Especially when the sniper rifle is not only smaller, cheaper, more available, and can use EX-Explosive Rounds to match the Panther's damage and armor penetration, BUT it also suffers half as much uncompensated recoil as the Panther AND uses the very common Longarms skill instead of the highly rare Heavy Weapons skill?

What rational, reasonable complaint do you guys have about a FA modded Assault Cannon? Clearly it's not imbalanced or overpowered compared to other available options - quite the opposite, really. So I can only assume you're just being pedantic and getting hung up on the word "exotic" without having any practical reason for doing so.

It's not like we're trying to rapid-fire surface-to-air rockets or compressed-air-launched dildos or 18th century naval cannons and cannonballs. Assault cannons fire normal firearm ammunition, with a bullet, a casing, propellant, and a primer that is either detonated by impact or electrical spark. They are chambered exactly like smaller bullets. They fit in a clip (yes, we know, technically a magazine) just like smaller bullets. In every respect except for size, they are normal bullets. They should not qualify in any way as "exotic" ammunition.

~Umi
Mantis
I think the 'exotic' part comes from these quotes.

Assault Cannon Rounds: These highly stable explosive rounds are made of HDX superplast compound. (pg 323 SR4A)

Panther XXL: This enormous assault cannon fires special ammunition common to the primary weapon in many small tanks. It comes with a smartgun system. (pg 320 SR4A)
Emphasis mine.

That said, I agree with you on modding the weapon. It isn't such a big deal to make this thing full auto since you can't pack that much recoil comp into it anyway (not a machine gun so no gas vent for you) and FA mod uses up a lot of your mod slots. Your only real option is the gyro mount and if you are pulling all this out in a gun fight then you better need it. You can bet the cops with respond with extreme prejudice if you do.
Stingray
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Feb 20 2013, 04:51 AM) *
Should take a look at one of my favorite wish-list weapons, the Ares Thunderstruck (Arsenal, page 30).

Also in Arsenal, page 162, is an advanced combat rule Carrying Heavy Weapons. Aside from requiring a Body & Strength of 8 (each), the firer takes half the weapon's power (round down) as Stun damage, and can be knocked down. That is, of course, if you're not using something like a gyro stabilization unit.

..by accepting that rule in game, humans and elves can say tear-jerking goodbye to Ares Alpha
due it's under-barrel Grenade launcher. (wo using gyrostabilization, or being Adepts boosting attributes...)
SpellBinder
Yet another example of where the rules aren't clear.

You could if you go on the train of thought that all weapons that use the Heavy Weapons skill are the heavy weapons spoke about in that rule. If so, then even the compact ArmTech MGL-6, a pistol sized weapon that uses the Heavy Weapons skill and shoots mini-grenades, is out of the question for the smaller metatypes.

I'd expect the intent was towards machineguns and assault cannons and weapons that are frequently used with things like bi-pods, tri-pods, and the sort. Even present day, people can use the single shot M203 40mm grenade launcher on the M-16 without getting knocked on their ass. A weapon that I figure is very similar to the underbarrel grenade launcher on the Ares Alpha you mention, save that the Ares Alpha gets a six round magazine.
Stingray
..personally i suspect that rule is left-over from SR3 ed, (vaguely remember) where is actually cyberware (Dermal sheath?? + high level Muscle replacement??) that
make it possible the humans and elves have 8 Bod & 8 Str..
Stahlseele
SR3 had a bit more bite in the Recoil for the PAC:
9l Stun Damage if you fire it without having at least body and STR 9 i think.
Tanegar
QUOTE (Umidori @ Feb 20 2013, 01:02 AM) *
compressed-air-launched dildos

8S, AP- vs Impact armor, Composure test (3) or the target spends a whole combat turn doing the heebie-jeebie dance. biggrin.gif
All4BigGuns
QUOTE (Mantis @ Feb 20 2013, 12:37 AM) *
That said, I agree with you on modding the weapon. It isn't such a big deal to make this thing full auto since you can't pack that much recoil comp into it anyway (not a machine gun so no gas vent for you) and FA mod uses up a lot of your mod slots. Your only real option is the gyro mount and if you are pulling all this out in a gun fight then you better need it. You can bet the cops with respond with extreme prejudice if you do.


If someone shows up at your table with a character with a Full Auto Panther Assault Cannon, take the advice of Mirikon from the other forum. Smack them with a phone book.
Stahlseele
Yeah, doing that is stupid.
He should go for a battery of missle launchers.
Umidori
If someone shows up at my table with a Full Auto Panther Assault Cannon, I'll raise an eyebrow, check their Heavy Weapons skill, and ask them why they have it and what they plan to use it for. If they answer in a way that leaves me doubtful as to their sound judgement, I'll ask them to reconsider. If they persist, only then will I involve my good friend Mr. Telecom.

~Umi
Mantis
Sound advice for many of the things players bring to the table. Asking them about it forces them to think about and justify the choice which can lead them to rethink the choice, all without the GM having to say no.
SpellBinder
Hopefully. I knew a guy who would've said he'd want it for the noise it'd make when he fired it.

This is also the same kind of guy who'd always say "I dodge." during a D&D session whenever his character was declared a target of an attack.
tasti man LH
...yea, no. A FA Assault Cannon is far too silly for my taste, even if it is feasible or not.

Just like how I warned against one of my players on how silly it would be if he tried to use his heli to air drop drones like it was 1944 in Normandy.

(because despite being plausible, that would be silly)
StealthSigma
QUOTE (tasti man LH @ Feb 21 2013, 01:56 AM) *
...yea, no. A FA Assault Cannon is far too silly for my taste, even if it is feasible or not.

Just like how I warned against one of my players on how silly it would be if he tried to use his heli to air drop drones like it was 1944 in Normandy.

(because despite being plausible, that would be silly)


I'm questioning why that would be silly. In every situation? Yes. That is silly, but there are certainly cases where air dropping drones could be useful.
tasti man LH
Just the mental image of it raining drones like cats and dogs is enough for me to facepalm, despite how it's technically plausible.

Then again, this is the same guy who wanted to make all of his Steel Lynx drones essentially the Tachikomas from Ghost in the Shell...until I pointed out to him that drones can't really develop personalities of their own unless driven by a sentient AI.
Stahlseele
you realize that there are drones made especially for this right? O.o
tasti man LH
The air drop drones or the Tachikoma drones?
Stahlseele
airdrop at least.
and tachikoma are just medium to large size drones with wheels and walker adaption technically.
the only thing where they fall short is the no metahuman transportation capacity on any drone . .
StealthSigma
Well, airdropping drones into a compound would probably make security flip their shit and provide ample distraction for the rest of the team.
tasti man LH
Well, as long as he doesn't spam air-dropping drones like there's no tomorrow, it's fine. wink.gif

Otherwise, the exploits of the man that Rains Drones will pass quickly throughout the corpsec world, and suddenly he'll find himself going up against facilities that are armed with Anti-Aircraft guns/drones.

(and hey, I have my own love of theatrics myself. hell, when the time comes for me to be a player and not a GM, my planned rigger character is going to do his best to recreate this famous scene, but with micro to mini drones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V94K2eJnuCA)
All4BigGuns
QUOTE (tasti man LH @ Feb 21 2013, 01:48 PM) *
Well, as long as he doesn't spam air-dropping drones like there's no tomorrow, it's fine. wink.gif


What about Drop Bear bio-drones? nyahnyah.gif
tasti man LH
Eh? Biodrones?

*quickly looks them up*

...

...you people are SICK. sarcastic.gif
SpellBinder
That's what you get with unlimited funds and no scruples.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (tasti man LH @ Feb 21 2013, 03:48 PM) *
Well, as long as he doesn't spam air-dropping drones like there's no tomorrow, it's fine. wink.gif

Otherwise, the exploits of the man that Rains Drones will pass quickly throughout the corpsec world, and suddenly he'll find himself going up against facilities that are armed with Anti-Aircraft guns/drones.

(and hey, I have my own love of theatrics myself. hell, when the time comes for me to be a player and not a GM, my planned rigger character is going to do his best to recreate this famous scene, but with micro to mini drones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V94K2eJnuCA)


If he's talking about air dropping drones then they're either really inexpensive and disposable (because recovery will be very difficult) or their very expensive and fewer in number and he will attempt to recover them.
Umidori
I'd just airdrop feral ghouls. Use enough of them and it's really hard to shoot them all out of the sky while they're parachuting down. And even if you do, that turns them into air-deployed HMHVV bombs.

~Umi
Lionhearted
QUOTE (tasti man LH @ Feb 21 2013, 09:56 PM) *
Eh? Biodrones?
*quickly looks them up*
...
...you people are SICK. sarcastic.gif

*smirk* Wait until you look up dropbears, or stumble into the OG dropbear thread
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Mantis @ Feb 20 2013, 07:37 AM) *
That said, I agree with you on modding the weapon. It isn't such a big deal to make this thing full auto since you can't pack that much recoil comp into it anyway (not a machine gun so no gas vent for you) and FA mod uses up a lot of your mod slots. Your only real option is the gyro mount and if you are pulling all this out in a gun fight then you better need it. You can bet the cops with respond with extreme prejudice if you do.
You put that weapon (or the modded Barrett if the assault acnnon rounds are special enough to disallow firing selection change) on a C-D Dalmatian modded for undetectability, so recoil is not an issue... wait a minute, what I can figure out the GM can as well and he has a bigger budget.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Feb 21 2013, 12:54 PM) *
airdrop at least.
and tachikoma are just medium to large size drones with wheels and walker adaption technically.
the only thing where they fall short is the no metahuman transportation capacity on any drone . .

Rigger cocoon?

Or Special Storage + Rigger Cocoon if you want to be conservative about it.



-k
Umidori
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Feb 21 2013, 05:01 PM) *
You put that weapon (or the modded Barrett if the assault acnnon rounds are special enough to disallow firing selection change) on a C-D Dalmatian modded for undetectability, so recoil is not an issue... wait a minute, what I can figure out the GM can as well and he has a bigger budget.

Exactly. Once it becomes known that a runner team is doing missions in the region with a drone equipped with a FA assault cannon, the local corps are gonna take extra measures. That can be anything from more drones, to more mages, to more vehicles, to an enemy team of runners.

And even if the corps can't beef up their physical security at every conceivable target site, they can outfit an HTR team with a military gunship and have them on standby to respond to the next big break-in the runners pull off. Nothing drives a runner team to ground like the threat of Death From Above™.

~Umi
toturi
QUOTE (Umidori @ Feb 22 2013, 10:24 AM) *
Exactly. Once it becomes known that a runner team is doing missions in the region with a drone equipped with a FA assault cannon, the local corps are gonna take extra measures. That can be anything from more drones, to more mages, to more vehicles, to an enemy team of runners.

And even if the corps can't beef up their physical security at every conceivable target site, they can outfit an HTR team with a military gunship and have them on standby to respond to the next big break-in the runners pull off. Nothing drives a runner team to ground like the threat of Death From Above™.

~Umi

I think the corps in question would do their own cost-benefit analysis. Depending on the runner team, such a threat might not work and may even backfire.
ShadowDragon8685
If the Runner team is slick enough, getting an HTR team put together against them might be exactly what they want, so they can then provoke an HTR response and intercept the HTR VTOL in the air and hijack it.

If you're crazy enough to air-drop drones equipped with full-auto panther cannons, you're crazy enough to try anything, and so crazy it might just work.



[e]Of course, at that point, if you're air-dropping drones with FA panthers and hijacking airborne HTR VTOLs, chances are the corps will be willing to pay you handsomely to go somewhere else. Or else pay to employ you. That's about the point where you should be making the transition from "Shadowrunners" to "Mercenaries," I'd say.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Feb 22 2013, 03:14 AM) *
Rigger cocoon?

Or Special Storage + Rigger Cocoon if you want to be conservative about it.



-k

i think the cocoon can only be placed into vehicles, not drones O.o
Dakka Fiend
QUOTE (toturi @ Feb 22 2013, 04:06 AM) *
I think the corps in question would do their own cost-benefit analysis. Depending on the runner team, such a threat might not work and may even backfire.


Especially as high-powered directional jammers (and maybe cannons that fire that sticky foam whatever it's called) are a more efficient approach. "Thanks for the drones. You may leave now."
Summerstorm
Eh, if you put that much stuff on a drone, you can have them upgraded to work perfectly independent und secure (Wifi disabled).. also load them up with bombs to selfdestruct. NOBODY gets my drones.

I remember having a rigger in my games (SR3) who had a roto-drone loaded up with two auto-cannons. Under the rules it had like a 15-minute usability and only ammo for about 2-3 combat rounds on board because it was so overmodded and heavy.

The damn thing got activated, heaved itself out of his vehicle flew a few meters to the targeted location and MURDERED everything, shooting through walls and cover, completly ruining whole buildings... then left and locked itself into the charging station. Fun times...

I don't have anything against that, or FA-modded Panther's. Those things always come back to you, and it's just over-the-top-fun.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Feb 22 2013, 04:08 AM) *
Eh, if you put that much stuff on a drone, you can have them upgraded to work perfectly independent und secure (Wifi disabled).. also load them up with bombs to selfdestruct. NOBODY gets my drones.

I remember having a rigger in my games (SR3) who had a roto-drone loaded up with two auto-cannons. Under the rules it had like a 15-minute usability and only ammo for about 2-3 combat rounds on board because it was so overmodded and heavy.

The damn thing got activated, heaved itself out of his vehicle flew a few meters to the targeted location and MURDERED everything, shooting through walls and cover, completly ruining whole buildings... then left and locked itself into the charging station. Fun times...

I don't have anything against that, or FA-modded Panther's. Those things always come back to you, and it's just over-the-top-fun.


Rule of cool trumps all. And this coming from a rules lawyer! Sometimes it's okay to throw out rules to make the game fun and memorable... when done responsibly. As stated, there isn't really anything game breaking about an SA or FA PAC vs a modded out sniper rifle that can achieve the same level of destruction. Now, if you wanted to re-do the PAC ammo so that it had some sort of bonus against barriers (for busting thru walls and cars... and tanks........) then we could talk.
SpellBinder
Just expect the NPCs to do the same thing as well.

Got a burly ork toting around a full auto Panther cannon? Well, look out for the really burly troll down the street doing the exact same thing.
tasti man LH
^Just like the Squirt Gun Wars, so many years ago?
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