Which makes the idea of 'combat decking' a little preposterous. At least with what we know so far.

Honestly, if a new player has to buy a "Cyberdeck" to hack, it doesn't take a genius brain to see why he's called a "decker".

Anyway, such a big fuss about how they're called...

I prefer the iconic "Decker" term tough when I explain what they do, I say they "hack" systems. I think that explaining archetypes through:

"You have hackers. They divide into deckers, using a cyberdeck (a powerfull computer) and technomancers, who hack using magic." =>is a nice way to describe things.

"Bio-electric fields" you mean.

While I agree with you, the wireless/fast hacking can work. It just needs to be toned down to the same...realm as Magic. That is, "useful, but not godlike."

You need fast resolution for small tasks, e.g. GM: "You turn a corner and spot a security camera on the wall." Hacker: "I got this *one dice roll* Ok, it's hacked, we can walk right past it and it won't see us." Rather than GM: "There's a security network" Hacker: "Ok, so first I find an access point, hack into the security node, beat up the roving spider, avoid the IC, take control of the system and voila, we can do whatever we want and they won't know about it. Let me get my dice..."

Hacking cyberware shouldn't fall into the former realm, unless there's a viable defense other than "make yourself immune."

Exactly. If the game design intent is for this to be a viable strategy, then by definition it has to be commonly possible. Doesn't so much work if every corpsec drekheap and two-bit runner out there is full-on silent running.




Yeah, the fast resolution doesn't bother me at all, and actually would be very nice for game flow. Up until you get into the realm of 'combat hacking' against people who are actively shooting at you. Then it just gets preposterous and we start wondering why there aren't drones doing this without the lag of a meat-based processor involved at all.

Beyond that, your magic comparison is pretty apt. This is the same problem that has popped up with possession magic more than once, if I recall.

Combat hacking really should be just like firing a gun or tossing a spell.

You make an attack roll, target resists, determine success.

They shouldn't be able to achieve the same level of control as a full on network infiltration. Effects that momentarily overwhelm the target's cyberdefenses before being fought off. Ideally they should be effects that aren't just replicating stuff other archetypes do.



-k

Exactly.

Yeah, in combat, the hacker shouldn't be probing a system or stealing data or coding. They should be able to trigger programs and other prearranged cyber assaults. I would like to see a hacker be able to do things like:

1. Overload a targets AR with spam and noise, so that they have to turn off their AR or take distraction penalties. Do something similar with sensors. So you can do things like drown out a camera's wireless signal in static or overload its processor with millions of subscription attempts so that it can't observe your team, but not take full control of it or the whole security system.
2. Jam a target's communication, preventing them from calling for help or coordinating tactically with their team.
3. Possibly send false tactical information using an enemies signal, but nothing that will hold up to close examination. Or maybe just bothersome noise, so that their ear pieces are suddenly screeching painfully in their ears while they're trying to fire at you.
4. Locate enemies based on their signals and communications and provide that info for targeting to drones' and teammates' fire. Improve your teams accuracy or allow them to ignore visual penalties to hit targets.
5. Instantly, provide data from map softs ect. to help the team navigate and map out important things in the teams AR.
6. Use sensors and analysis tools to quickly identify the best cover and/or isolate weak points in the enemies cover or defenses. So they can do things like say "Duck in the left doorway, that will put one of the building's support beams between you and him." Or, "That's a type M83-MkII security drone, shoot just below the Ares symbol, the armor's weak there." Or, "I've outlined the targets in your AR, they're on the other side of this wall. The walls are thin, shoot through them."

Put the hacker into more of an intelligence and counter-intelligence role, while in combat. Providing bonuses to their team and penalties to the opposition.

Hacking runs at combat speeds already.
At least it does at our table anyways.
It is just that hacking other people's gear is just dumb, for the most part, but hacking that camera around the corner? Not all that bad. The biggest disconnect is that you assume you can do it in .75 Seconds to 1 Second. I call BS on that. It SHOULD take 3-6 seconds for that (which is ludicrously fast as it is).... *shrug*

It should, but the SR5 notes above mention wanting it to run at the same speed as guns and magic, which is combat rounds.

If you just replace "hack" with "spoof", you can do it in SR4 already.

Does it say that it runs in IP passes (will go back and look)? It already runs in 1-2 Turns as it is. *shrug*

Nope: It just says that they should be fast. And they are.

Ok, well, just made my first 5e House Rule, before it even came out. [takes out magical item - GM's Gavel of Overruling] Bang! Overruled!

I personally prefer the team decker / technomancer / AI to be at a safe remote location as often as possible. It only makes sense to me - why bring more people along than necessary? No need to put all your eggs in one basket. As necessary, carry wireless relays to help a remote hacker access a target, but leave them in armored bunker as much as possible.

Obviously play styles differ, but I see this as a really stupid rule designed to force a specific playstyle on players, but well, that's why House Rules exist. I like the other points mentioned, however.

One would think if the 'Just bring wireless relays to help remote hacker access a target" was the holy grail of dodging said Decker from having to be present. Said security forces and drones would be on the look out for those first and foremost. Then put a bullet through them ASAP. If they're relaying your signal in, you simply have drones (or people with scanners, whatever) sweeping for said extra signals, Zeroing in on the relays and toasting them.

If you're ass deep in a corp facility and one guard at the door laughs and stomps on your relay and suddenly you're 100% cut off from your Decker... the point of having him along becomes very apparent very quickly.

I'd still try my hardest to make long-distance decker presence continue to work, if only on the grounds that I intensely despise my play style being dictated to me by gaming companies. Especially via such blatant, ham-fisted means as this new rule.

...dunno about you, but I'd drag my decker with the rest of my team, because I don't like the fact that me and the rest of the team has to take the bullets while he/she is sitting comfy in his teched out pad, sipping soykaf and TRONing his way through stuff.

So why the hell should the decker get exclusive rights as being not-as-dead as the rest of the team? Suddenly the decker is elevated a bit higher than the rest of team.

And if the decker has less odds of dying compared to the rest of the team and stays back to just remotely hack everything, what's stopping from all of the players to decide to just be deckers, because the odds of dying aren't as bad as physically going into a corp facility?

Actually, I think an all-decker team could be interesting. That said, obviously you like the idea of taking the decker along. I prefer having AI's as the team's decker (usually an NPC slot on our teams), so they *can't* be there physically. Personally, I don't play deckers, but I want them to be safe and not exposed to danger. Again, I don't regard putting all your eggs in one basket as a good idea. Having someone on the outside is always a good idea, in my book. I suppose it's also a stylistic choice - I'm used to the decker being a remote presence, not a physical presence and have grown to prefer it that way.

Again - I will not allow CGL to dictate my play style.

Still though, both being equally viable options is still fine by me. As I put it a couple of pages back:

Well, the runners can take the AI with them. The AI can load itself up in to one of the runner's commlinks, or the runners can take the AI's home commlink with them, or the AI could have a drone as a home commlink so can take the drone in with the runners. AI's aren't entirely helpless even though they lack any physical presence in meat space.

The only problem I can really think of is a quadriplegic hacker. And the problems I can see with that is that his drone wheelchair will limit his mobility and be pretty obvious. But he can still come on the run.

Just have the troll carry him in a baby bjorn or go all MasterBlaster

Overall, I liked Thorya's example the best the rest of the posts...

AR spam is as close to blinding someone as i'm comfortable going, and not comfortable at all with the hacking cyberware directly. Screwing with the AR iconogrphy going into the commlink though that's something else which ends up all over his display.


The more I think about this though... I'd prefer to see riggers and deckers combined even more. Because integrally they're the exact same thing and it just makes sense. They both deal intimately with network security... they both take remote control of systems... just because one is a drone and the other is a database doesn't change much. A deckers combat ability ties directly into how much he invests into drones or personal combat. Even moreso if noise limits the I'm going to daisy chain a signal through a bunch of drones and stay nice and safe out here in the van no longer works so well. As it means that riggers also will need to be with the team to limit noise as well.

Oh yeah.. SR5... Datajacks should give some benefit to using them over trodes. Sorry trodes make some sense as a non-invasive way to do some things... but the datajack should still have some superior qualities.



Other than that, I'd like to see spoof command become much better defined. (get rid of things like spoof new admin account or change password as that's just seriously broken... when you have an exploit mechanic to do the same thing). But make things like ejecting the clip, or sending a 'reboot' command to the device a bit easier. So long as the effects are more like the accident power/glitches... making it much faster and streamlined makes more sense.


Though I disagree strongly with this for cyberware... why should cyber ever take commands from wireless when it has a direct meat interface, is not rigged, and is not subject to 'control device' matrix orders?... It's controlled organically without any actions by the person it's installed into. It makes no sense... it doesn't pass the whole 'why was this even made wireless in the first place? except as part of the everything is wireless whether it makes sense or not campaign.

I believe someone with cybereyes shouldn't be immune to AR spam coming from his commlink... but at the same time cybereyes should have some advantages over the guy who's only wearing goggles & trodes and didn't pay any essence for them.

This is one of those things that makes me wonder if the design team for SR4 even bothered to read SR through SR3 to see their own fluff. Of course, having read the rest of the Matrix rules, it's clear the answer is 'of course not'.




That's pretty much it, yes. It makes me especially frustrated given that there is what, 40 years worth of cyber out there already in existence, the vast majority of it built before wireless was a 'thing' again. Of course, the answer is clearly to ret-con it in despite there being treatises in earlier books as to -why- wireless wasn't used for the Matrix, and why VCR's were about the most bandwidth it could push.

I was just thinking about this. I really liked in SR4 how the Matrix was skill + program, while it was annoying that its not intuitive it made sense to me because technology is the great equalizer.

A troll can be just as good in the Matrix as an elf. Some high school punk can be just as good as a grumpy old man. But going to attribute + skill it means those characters with higher logic will be able to do better at every matrix action.

I guess I'd also like every stat to have its own niche. Logic for hermetic mages. Charisma for shamans. Strength for melee characters. Agility for...everyone...ever... Maybe intuition for the matrix? I don't know...I guess I'm not sold that the Matrix is entirely logical. There are a lot of technologists that are not academics but are still hot shot wizkidz.

I'm curious how they're going to make program ratings worthwhile at all, if they're going to attribute + skill for rolls.

Program rating as a cap for net hits?

I expect they're getting rid of the majority of programs and settling down to a list of 4 or so primary attributes (I'm hoping it's a take on ACIFS) to serve as hit caps.

Would make sense, so we'll have to wait and see what they actually do.

From the comments that have been made, it sounds like programs are going to be opening up specific capabilities. Which suggests that, rather than decreasing, program variety is likely to increase such that while in SR4, you have Exploit 6 with whatever options and it just does what it does, SR5 might see a whole set of Exploit utilities that a decker might use.

That's pretty optimistic. Haven't they kind of hinted that there are too many utilities as it is?

Regarding this business about long ranged hacking and play style. You will still be able the hack from long ranges. It's just impractical (and always has been). The best parallel is a mage who just astrals into the run. Ya, it's way safer if there is little magic security, but it limits your options. I think the idea had always been (at least as far back as 3rd) to bring the hacker along so he can hack the protected system. Sure, you can get into repeaters, drones, and wireless adapters. But it's just as easy to just go into the run with your team and doo your job. After all, most hackers have other security and technical skills as well. So CGL isn't dictating your play style. They are just presenting a practical team based game that favors not being a coward.

Regarding the use of programs, I'm all for using the Attribute + Skill formula. The Matrix is the great equalizer, but you still have to be good at hacking. I'm hoping that this will curb the behavior of simply buying your way to hacking, rather than developing a good character.

The problem was, there was little or no poin to have more than one Decker.

Which meant that, for the half-hour or hour the Decker spent doing the matrix side of a run, the REST of the group - 3-6 players - basically sat with their thumbs up their asses, doing little or nothing related to the game.

...

Sure, the Decker could join the party in meatspace. But the opposite was not true ... the rest of the party couldn't (effectively and contributarily) join the Decker in the matrix.

"Sure they could! All they have to do is buy a few programs."

That's called "Decker+." If a decker is an entire concept that takes up all available BP (just like mage or street sam) then no, another class can't simply "buy a few programs and contribute" (ergo the above statement is false). If being a good decker is possible whilst also being something else, you've entered "Decker+." That is, all characters are deckers, plus something else (ergo "decker" isn't an archetype). Afterall, you can just simply buy a few programs...

I think getting it down to 10-12 would be sufficient. Any expansions should just explore program options.

Note, I didn't mean the Decker could be "something else", too. Just that they could join the party, and participate in the game, for non-matrix scenes - and not be an automatic detriment to the odds of success during those scenes.

Whereas the opposite was most definitely not true. Carrying the others along through the matrix, was quite literally carrying dead weight.

I was agreeing with you.

If they're doing what I suspect they're doing, actually, that would be horribly limiting. It would be like if the core book only had twelve weapons.

Hacking is already like if the core book only had ONE weapon in each category. >..>

Exploit = Trusty Rifle
Spoof = concealable holdout
Nuke = Grenades

You misunderstand me. I mean 12 total. Across all categories. Meanwhile, there's 24 categories.

The way I'm reading things, it looks like different programs are going to open up different capabilities. They do not add to dice pools, they do not set your limits.



Source: http://www.shadowruntabletop.com/2013/02/s.../#comment-19983

I know this.

And I love this.

It creates a lot of very interesting possibilities, including such things as specific-effect combat programs. Still, I'm wondering what they'll do with Technomancers with this change before I get too happy about it.

Get rid of them.

^Yea no.

Retcons = bad times.

Plus, the Matrix post already confirmed that TMs are there to stay.

So they get merged with otaku....

Problem solved.... they were just freaks to begin and end with.

Rather, just retcon the idea of not needing a datajack. Then they essentially become otaku without Fading

Or, retcon nothing. The hell do they need the datajack for when everything it wireless? It's not like it would change anything - you stick a wireless adapter into there, and functionality's the same.

Basically, retcon for no effect. Would be foolish.

Unless if you want them to suddenly retcon trodes for no reason...because otherwise it would make no sense why people can access the Matrix wireless-ly with trodes, but for some reason TMs can't.

OH, I HAVE AN IDEA.
IMPLANTED COMLINK, BAM. SPICEWEASEL.

Easy if they don't have a datajack they automatically suffer 'noise' when accessing any wired system... since they must hop through at least one wireless device to get to the fiber.

All for that... really deckers should always have datajacks. Trodes should cause issues with noise!

Skinlink complex form.

Also, it's not "any wireless at all" that will be causing Noise. It's "not in mutual signal range, nor directly hardwired" that will cause Noise.

If the smaller Signal rating between TM and device is 2, just be within Signal 2 or less distance. Poof, no Noise.

Skinlink doesn't matter... and is not a complex form.

It's a no different than going wirelessly into the commlink...
Or using trodes -> sim module -> commlink
then plugging the fire into the commlink.


Datajacks for all for best noise-free system performance! Down with the stupidity of wireless everything and anything. Really they should make a comeback along with decks...

The point is that they're not jacking directly into the tech.. there should be a price to pay for that.