Some of those concerns can be fixed pretty easily, though.

(1) Give TMs a "package deal" CF, that covers Analyze, Browse, Edit, and Command - the programs that are in the Basic User Suite - all with a single rating, bought as a single CF. (Data Search is an action, using Browse, not a separate program, btw.)
(2) Give TMs a default Scan CF equal to their resonance (which has slight precedence: any wireless device automatically has Scan 1).

There's five of the nine programs you just cited as must-haves, for the cost of just one.

Does it completely solve the issue, no. Does it go a long way towards mitigating it, yes.

...

... and 5E may make all of that irrelevant, anyway. With the idea of "programs only enable actions, you still use your matrix stats plus a skill for yur die pool" ... CFs will probably also become a yes-or-no, on-or-off affair, without ratings - eliminating most or all of the extra BP burden.

To be fair a TM can summon a sprite or thread any complex form they need and take a complex form and thread it higher then a program, while a hacker can not. Like wise a techno can't have their node hacked by a hacker, which eliminates a few matrix threats. Its not like they're always at a complete disadvantage in every way because they offer more on the fly utility. Its a trade off. Kind of like being a mystic adept over a mage or normal adept.

That is not bad in itself. The only part I have a problem with is the need for a decent Charisma score, which does not at all match the stereotype of the sociopath nerd. For shamans, the need for high CHA can be explained by the classic image of the"awe-inspiring wise tutor" type, but for TMs? What they would need is something like a quality which gives +1 to all CHA for purposes of drain, sprites, and Biofeedback Filter, and -1 for everything else.


At least those are just "active" programs. What is worse IMO is the amount of programs required to negate other characters' actions. No Purge? Well, you're screwed. Running high Armor? Whoops, it does nothing against black IC...

To the first point: Virtual Personality Rating 3 combined with Reality Impaired. However, sociopath (a) is no longer a term, and (b) did not mean what you think it meant.

To the latter point, stuff that's needed on a case by case basis like that is what Threading is for. A technomancer can have absolutely any program or program option they need when they need it, so long as they're willing to deal with the Fading. Building one is, in no small part, about knowing what you must have access to reflexively or without sustaining penalties versus what you can rely on sprites for or thread. For example, I have one technomancer not too far out of chargen running around with Analyze, Armour, Attack, Blackout, Exploit, Shield, Smartlink, and Stealth. Anything else I need, I can thread when I need it or get a sprite to do it (strictly speaking, there are probably some changes I'd make for optimization, but they don't fit the character so well yet). They're perfectly viable - and actually quite strong - if you know the tools available to you and make effective use of them.

Also, the Armour/Black IC thing is less relevant given that the Biofeedback Filter is built in, and not part of the limit on starting Complex Forms. Plus, it does help that being knocked out means that their connection is shut down regardless of the Black IC rules, because the bionode shuts down.

However, I'm very curious as to how the de-emphasis of programs will change technomancers - especially since we already know they're not going anywhere (it has been confirmed multiple times they're still in SR5).

A techno doesn't need edit and many others as permanent CF's.

He can thread them on the fly if he needs them... Really rating 3 complex form isn't much to ask for on the fly and is more than adequate for most tests. If he needs higher for some tests all he needs do is use any registered sprite to thread it even higher. Even rating 1 or 2 works... And if he does want them as permanent CF's he can buy them after play starts for 1 karma each (3 for rank 2)... which is still damned cheap.


Put simply... the argument is flawed... a techno will have little trouble getting ANY program at rating 3-6 he desires when he needs it. (thread to 1... then use a rating 5 sprite to raise it +5 for 5 combat turns per service).



Also all this talk about this and that is premature... all that can be done now is just wait to see what comes out of the printers for SR5.

Threading is not as powerful as you people seem to be implying.

1) You can (realistically) only thread one program at a time*
2) It takes an action to do so
3) Caps based on one of those highly required stats.

Edit? Could probably thread.
Stealth? Probably not.
Stealth AND Exploit? Definitely not.

*At a -2 to everything else you're doing, at which point you're threading to gain back the loss.



And I could live with that.

Registered Sprite services, Thread'n'Drop, and eventually the Swap echo (taken twice, you no longer have to worry about that penalty at all)...

Exploit and Stealth are amongst the ones you take as base. Though, for Probing, you can thread Exploit way up, and drop that before threading Stealth. Plus there's always Assist Operation. There are so many ways to boost CFs it's not even funny.

Yes, you do need some complex forms, mancers shouldn't not have at least a few. At the very least stealth, exploit, and analyze, and maybe attack. But everything else is situational enough to be threaded on a need to use bases.

Exploit and Stealth is a combination you'd best have. Offensive and Defensive forms in case cybercombat is thrust upon you, too. Analyze to passively scan for intrusions by other technomancers. Outside of that, the rest is threadable. Rigging 'mancers may want a couple of others. There are some that you do need to just have, but it's a small list.

Exactly. 'Die in a tire fire.' is my personal opinion on the matter.

Constructively, I'd prefer to see the entire TM archtype banished to whatever the new Matrix expansion book is going to be, so as to make them a fringe case instead of a major archtype, and thus easily banished via house rules or just plain ignored.




They are. But much like modern Shamans are not the Shamans of previous editions, Technomancers are Otaku in name only. They have a few common mechanics, but are wholly a different thing.




Exactly why I suggested Black IC as the way to get rid of them in-universe. Several of the megacorps are already heavily into psychotropics anyway, so all it would take is something in the local grid putting in a little suggestion that 'you want to be online all the time', and walking into the wrong area leads to TMs starting to show stigmata.

Like I said, I don't particularly care for them. You want to know what I do with my dislike of them? I don't play them. I'm not going to demand or even suggest that the company just slaughter every Technomancer in the setting and remove them as an option for those who do like to play them though.

... How does the difficulty of speaking the words "Technomancers don't exist in my game" change, exactly?

Yeah, what All4 and RHat just said.

Actually, Black IC would be the worst idea; they get to resist that. Normal Cybercombat will murder them.

+1

Reality Impaired doesn't really fit the bill, and it takes levels of Virtual Personality to offset the cost of one Charisma point, while the maximum level is 3...


I am quite aware of what the term implies (or used to) and used it in that sense: A guy who is not just a bit socially awkward but actively does not give a shit for the meat world, its norms, and what consequences his actions might have there. Especially the descriptions of the old Otaku went into that direction


My point was the very existence of all that stuff, which makes the Matrix a bit like the fencing in Monkey Island: The GM tells you what is ahead, and you can only win if you remember the right comeback.
And of course it gets really bad for regular hackers. The list of programs they have to buy is far too big and non-descriptive to make new players comfortable

They get to resist that as well...
Shield and Armor CF's, as well as access to Paladin Sprites makes for a very hard to hurt (let alone kill) Technomancer.

Unless all of that is not enough to reduce matrix damage to 0, then you're killing the TM with each attack.
And if all of that is reducing the damage to 0, then TMs are overpowered.

Just like Wall of Troll in actual combat? So what's your point exactly? ^^

[A] is [broken] just like [B].
Therefore [A] is [not broken].
QED.

Fantastic logic.

When referring to logic, you should really read the post you try to dispute or it makes you look a lot less smart.
"Just like" means "there is another thing that is equal to this one thing".

I ask again, with a bit more clarification: What is your point? Why is the TM more broken than other kinds of characters? Your outrage isn't understandable to me.
To rehash: You hate technomancers, with a vengeance. For various reasons. You cite fluff reasons, you cite crunch reasons, just as they present themselves and want to a) not see them anymore (ideal world, not necessarily in the books) and b) have them cut down so they are less broken than other broken things. Or I misunderstood b) and you want both broken things to be not broken anymore? This is a genuine question, I am not trying to be a smartass here.

It begs the question however, why you think that b) won't happen in the next edition?

Hacker-type characters have always been a more 'advanced' character type with more complicated rules. The same thing goes with spell casters (in multiple games for that one). It's generally a good idea for new players to stick with the combative types for a while until they have the simple stuff down before moving on to more complicated characters.

I must say your post gives the feeling that

"Technomancer works like Wall Troll so it's ok."

Then let's abstract this a bit
Fringe case a is broken, just as fringe case b is broken. General mechanics are okay.

Should case a be rectified in ed 5?
Should case b be rectified in ed 5?
Should both or neither be rectified in ed 5?
Is there a reason to suspect that it won't be rectified in ed 5?

What makes case a worse than case b right now? Are there more examples of case a than case b?

Question 1: No.
Question 2: No.
Question 3: Neither should be touched.
Question 4: No.

Question 5: Nothing wrong with either except in more fringe cases of games of ridiculously low "power".

Think about this for ten seconds.

The basic assumptions of the rules in the core book are going to be based off of the things published in that book.

So, therefore, that which is not in the core book is not necessarily required to be reflected by the rules.

Not using a specific set of expansion rules is much easier than explaining to players that you've fully rewritten the Matrix section's basic assumptions because the game designers were high when they wrote them.

You first.



Fixed that for you.

... Bullshit. Pure and utter bullshit. You're not modifying the rules of the matrix, which have to work whether or not there's a technomancer involved, you're saying 6 words. That's it. That's all you're doing. Nothing else.



The point is more that the -4 to Social Skill tests allows you to get the TM benefits of high Charisma while being socially inept.



Generally, the term referred to psychopathy and anti-social personality disorder, of which being extremely charismatic is a highly consistent element. Sociopath does/did not mean socially inept or uncharismatic.



So, having options is a bad thing now? The more programs there are, the more options there are liable to be to approach a given situation, which is a good thing. It is a lot to remember (I like to keep a summary reference on hand for such things, as a memory aid), but the flexibility of being able to get any of those programs at any time is part of what makes technomancers powerful.

Once again, reading comprehension is helpful.

The rules of the matrix have design parameters set by what game actions are expected to be taken within that context. The existence of technomancers, and the fundamental conditions of the Matrix necessary for them to be a relevant archtype, have wider consequences on those rules than just the existence of technomancers.


That said, I realize they're not going anywhere, and therefore have long since settled for going the same route as previously developed for people wanting to play ghouls in games I run. 'No.' is a very useful word.

I comprehend just fine. You happen, however, to be wrong. As the matrix rules have to work just as well whether or not there's a technomancer in the group, they would not change appreciably for the removal of technomancers.

Edit : Oh, you edited, and you still don't get it. That makes more sense.

The matrix rules have to account for the conditions required for a technomancer to function. So, for example, for technomancers to work as written, a wireless Matrix is necessary. This puts limitations on ways the Matrix rules can be put together.

Is any of this getting through to you at all?

And AT NO POINT EVER will those rules presume that there MUST be a Technomancer present. In fact, they have to be designed so that they work when there isn't a Technomancer present.

Your objection - the presumption that Technomancers even being a core option means that the Matrix has to work in a fundamentally different manner, is nonsense, gobbledygook, folderol, pure bullshit.


Bullshit. There are no "fundamental conditions of the Matrix necessary for" Technomancers, which are not equally necessary for Deckers. None. At all.






Chicken-or-the-egg.

If the Matrix was Wired-only, then we'd simply have Otaku: technomancers with datajacks. Or trodes, perhaps. Oh wait, in SR3, that's precisely what we had! Funny how that works.

...so you would rather have a Matrix-centric archetype that would work within both Wired and Wireless Matrix with relatively minor alterations when moving between the two...

...and bringing back the Wired Matrix is a viable option because...?

Completely discounting, of course, that Technomancers (unlike Otaku) lose Resonance for having a datajack due to being a kludge of trying to force the magic systems rules into a matrix context.

... which in turn has precisely zero effect on the Matrix rules themselves. And in a Wired-only environment, perhaps Technos would not have lost Resonance for datajacks, encephalons, and other "hooked directly to the brain" cybernetics.

Also, as I already mentioned: Trodes. Not all man-machine interfaces cost Essence.

I think folks are hung up on the details of particular archetypes.

There's no reason the details HAVE to be the same.

At their base, deckers and technomancers represent one hacker who does the job with gear, and another that does it with force of will. As long as those base ideas are kept, everything else can be changed if they need to.


-k

That's true, Karma.

But there's a couple folks here who owuld like the "does it with force of will" archetype to disappear entirely. I believe one phrase used was "Die in a fire", in fact.

Ah. So you're under the delusion that the wireless matrix exists only because of technomancers, or that the presense of technomancers somehow precludes wired-isolated systems - this is not the case. The rules even account for such things at present.

Fun fact: All a technomancer has to do to get access to a wired only system is plug something into it that's wireless. If the facility is listening for wireless emissions and throwing up an alarm in such cases, you use the skinlink echo.

You may not like the wireless Matrix, but technomancers are in no way the cause the things you don't like about it. The wireless Matrix exists because we already have nigh-ubiquitous wireless and thus, in order to stay relevant to the modern day, Shadowrun must have wireless.

For reference: Read the fiction on Unwired page 129. It describes an absolutely zero-wireless facility where you must surrender all wireless devices to gain access. This is the opening to the technomancer chapter. So if you think completely non-wireless facilities are not a possibility in the rules as they stand, it is not my reading comprehension that is insufficient.

Outside the Matrix...though admittedly better than nothing



Which is exactly what I wrote, thankyouverymuch. Also note that the charming guy who successfully deceives everybody may be the standard media treatment of the topic, but not necessarily the standard epidemiology. Brazenly lying is a criterion, being particularly good at it is not.


How exactly is "X can only be countered by Y" an option? The acting user has options, the reacting user only has the option of knowing the right answer (beforehand for hackers, immediately for TMs) or having his pants down.

"Here's how to build a viable [X]" -> fringe case

Wow.

You complain that an optimized techomancer with paladin sprites soaks matrix damage as well as an optimized troll soaks bullets?
YES. Both are fringe cases. Welcome to the real world, Mr. Anderson.

Wow.

"Technos are terrible and non-viable" -> "this fringe case isn't" -> "that fringe case is broken in the other direction" -> "everything is fine"

We get it, you don't like Technomancers, and like I said, neither do I really, but others do, and the character type shouldn't be removed as a choice for them just because we don't like them.

Fugging elle.

I'm advocating for a rewrite of their mechanics, but everyone insists that they're fine.

When I point out that they're not fine people accuse me of trying to write them out of existence.

I give up.

...ok, how about this:

If they rewrite the mechanics to the point where you not only could have a TM and a decker on your team, but you WANT to have both on your team, and neither outclass or outshine each other (unless if one has higher Karma than the other) and complement each other well, I think that will do nicely.

And everyone will come out with big, tusky smiles.

This suggests a serious bias against them which can prevent suggestions which are good for the character type to function.

Part of the problem is that you're arguing from what I would contend is a false premise - specifically, that they're not viable. Generally, I'd say technomancers are a good deal more powerful than mundane hackers once you get some Karma going, and in a way that it isn't possible for mundanes to catch up with through nuyen. The flipside of this, however, is it's way easier to make the mundane more than just the Matrix guy, and far more difficult to do the same with the Techno. And, due to starting costs, it's easy to wind up with a technomancer that's weaker without really knowing how they work.

That said, they HAVE to re-write technomancer mechanics. If you used the current mechanics with an attribute+skill Matrix, they'd by terrible.

Well, a Logic Stream Technomancer would be pretty good...

Much like traditions and Drain Attributes, they've all got their advantages. Combat-hacker or AR-rigger style technomancers are best off with Intuition to feed initiative. Logic technomancers can take some serious advantage of 'ware for Fade resistance and Logic-linked bonuses. Charisma streams get to make more extensive uses of sprites and cross into being secondary faces very easily - and the elf charismancer is nicely Fading efficient in its own right.

1-Yes
2-Yes
3-Both
4-No

I do think that a gamesystem should prevent every types of overpowered characters. (unless it's style is Epic and you face the same kind of opposition).