Is it stated anywhere how "far" this wireless handshake range goes? Probably its not further than 10-20 meters, which would reduce the danger of getting your gear hacked by some degree, because the guy needs to get close to you and it would not be able to get hacked by someone who just drives by in cyberspace.

Actually, I think you might be wrong here.

Let's have a look at the iconic runner team. They are right on the SR1 cover. A mage, a streetsam and a decker. So, we have these three iconic core classes in SR. Ideally, every one of them has it's own playing ground, where he excells. The sammie has the physical world, the mage the astral world and the decker has the matrix.
Now, what happens, when the opposition of a conflict is lacking in power in one of these areas:

• Physical World: If the sammies is the only one with wired reflexes and a good gun, his side will have a much easier time in combat. You sort of have to invest in your own physical threat to counter one on the oppenent's side. If you don't the sammie will be more powerfull.
• Astral World: If your side has access to spells and spirits and the other side doesn't... well we all know how this will end. You need to invest in a mage to counter the opponent's magic. If you don't , the mage will get more powerful.
• Matrix: Well, if you're the only one with matrix resources you can do... not so much. Because the opponent can either also invest in matrix resources or simply opt to not invest at all and completely drop out of the matrix. And when that's the case, the decker gets LESS powerful.

I think the devs realized that and tried to make the option of dropping out of the matrix much less attractive. And I guess for the sake of balancing the three core classes in SR, this has to be done in some way. I'm still not convinced that SR5 does this in a way I like, but I will wait for the printed book and then decide. I vaguely remember someone (maybe Frank Trollmann?) posting an alternative set on matrix rules quite some time ago, that tried to fix the same issue and that were far more radical in allowing actual brain hacking.

On the other hand, I totally see that somehow people will freak out, because someone could hack their cyberarm and strangle them with it. But the same people are somehow fine with the fact that a mage could cast Control Actions on them and then strangle them with their cyberarm... And they can defend themselves even less against the mage.

-CJ

Unfortunately you ignore something:

Just like the face can usually not really exploit his powers during combat, a "normal" hacker is more able outside of combat. Information gathering, hacking security systems (often he is the general tech guy as well) etc. Even without forced online devices in a stupid way he was able to contribute in combat (radio communication, tacnet, drones - and you would have a very special enemy setup if all this is not used).

The basic premise of the SR5 decker changes "everyone needs to be online in order to be hacked" is simply a lie and or missing knowlege of SR4 rules and missing game experience.

SYL

Yeah, Ends of the Matrix was Trollman's system. That it's not commonly used (it is a good system overall, but has forced wireless vulnerability) might clue you into whether or not people consider wireless vulnerability a problem. And it is a problem, a massive problem, because it forces anyone not an opt-out mage to be constantly babysitted by a decker. constantly, meaning also in legwork and hiding phases of a run. And since only decks can deck, it's safe to assume a commlink isn't capable of viably defending even against a mediocre deck - and someone who is worth paying 50K to go up against probably can afford a decent decker. Hence, the streetsam, the rigger and the face canot exist without a decker constantly watching over them that they're not getting fried by something that is relatively common and they have no viable means of defending against.

Sure, maybe it will balance out in that the GM won't use deckers against players that way, or maybe it will just be houseruled by everyone, but it is a very bad call to make by CGL. If an idea gets a bad reception, turning it to eleven and forcing it down everybody's throat isn't the best way to approach this.


Well, yes. It was my first main problem with SR4, at least.

wait a second, does this here mean, my cyberware will not work in a dead zone, underwater, in a wifiprotected laboratory, etc, because it can't connect to the matrix?
Nevermind some hacker I might cross at some point of my career, but if an area jammer makes you quadriplegic, cyberware sales numbers will drop dramatically...

No, it doesn't mean that.
There's a difference between basic functionality and wi-fi bonuses.
A basic functionality (like walking, seeing, thermographic vision, etc.) is always available (unless it's hacked, of course), but the wi-fi bonus is only available if the piece of gear is connected to the matrix.

But if your legs have a wi-fi bonus, apparently that will stop working in such a situation.

I think basic functionality is always available even if hacked. I don't know the actual rules, though, it just seems like there are certain things that shouldn't "turn off" even if the hacker gets into the device.

Uh. No. If someone hacks your commlink, its basic functionality of making a call is compromised. If someone decrypts a file protection, the basic functionality of protecting the file is gone.
Same goes for every other item that can be hacked.

Not saying I'm a fan of wireless bonuses, mind you, but that's the deal with stuff that can be hacked.

Well you might still be able to see even if hacker gets into your eyes, whether you wan't to see the Troll on elf porn the hacker is piping in is kinda up to the character in question

So if the hacker hacks your cyberheart, its basic functionality of keeping you alive...?

Then he can kill you, but really why would you have your cyber hearth connected to any possible access point from matrix.

Yes. He can kill you, if your cyberheart is hackable. Just like it will kill you if someone EMPs a pacemaker IRL.

But why would you let it be wireless? You're constructing a hypothetical situation without providing a reason for it being online all the time (i.e. giving it a wi-fi bonus).
I'm pretty sure that there's no cyberheart in any source yet and see no reason why there would be one, and even if there were one, why it should have a wi-fi bonus at all.

Sure, you may have access ports to access data readouts, but if that malevolent decker can just plug into your neck, you have other problems.

Also, for now I only know of the necessity for wireless matrix access to achieve a synergy between wired reflexes and reaction enhancers. It's also not surprising that a decker could kill the basic functionality of boosting your reflexes if he gets a high enough access level to your boosters.
Until I know exactly how reasonable or unreasonable the wi-fi bonuses for cyberware are, I'll hold off on a final judgement.

Edit: It's decker now!

Considering what I see there, atm, I think I will houserule it by: you can DNI and get wireless bonus if you spend +10% essence cost.

At least, I will be able to justify this.

I would just house rule all the wireless bonus crap completdly away and let everyone get those basic functionalities as standard, +10% essence cost is still quite a big premium to pay for what use to be basic function.

Indeed. I can see the benefits of the new system, but I am also aware of the drawbacks.
If it's "not better" than 4E, just use 4E. If it is better, then use it.

That's the point all of us have been trying to make all along. Why would you have anything hackable connected to any possible access point to the matrix? The 5e rules as presented require matrix access for entirely internal cyberware like wired reflexes or cybereyes to function at full power, and those systems are connected direct to the owner's nervous system just like a cyberheart would be.

It's a dumb rules concept from the start that should never have made it into draft, much less been published. I can only assume the devs responsible have never actually played an RPG where the GM uses this sort of thing against the characters.

They stop having fun, real fast.

While I could see a lot of corporations installing this sort of vulnerability into their externally marketed hardware, why would they, or any government be willing to make use of it? The best and brightest are going to be totally wireless dark when it matters just to reduce their risk of getting detected, and I think a year of playing SR5 is going to confirm that the entire black trenchcoat crowd will also decide that the bonuses aren't worth the risk and will just shut them off. The Pink Mohawk crowd will rely on their GM deciding that exploiting the team's massive EM footprint and hacking their gear is "lame" and will only do it as the plot demands.

In the end, the problem will sort itself out, generally boiling down to the groups of players deciding these rules suck. The sole exception will be Missions, where we'll all just play deckers, rather than the previous seasons where damn near everyone played a mage.

TBH if, that's IF, I decide to take a deeper look at SR5 I will be ruling that things that should work together via DNI or other items that logically function just fine without the Matrix access do just that. They may still have WiFi transponders than can be turned off (or physically removed) since I can see the Megas pulling that kind of thing (probably not with Military contracts though, although CorpSec may very well use those functions as I've seen some of the utterly dumb things companies pull because someone in Direction thinks it's cool or a benefit).

For SR3 I usually run close to canon, I can see SR5 if it happens at my table having some House rewriting for some of the setting>mechanics logic and consistency.

Also though, reminds of some of those sweet paranoia days of the threat of having some form of Psychotropic Cascading Black IC lodged on a FailSafe switch into your new piece of NovaHot 'ware from Renraku that triggered if you went to the wrong kind of place (IE: Their RD labs) that could flood straight into the DNI of your cybersystems and fry your brain.

This is false; he's changed all kinds of things when I've given him reasoned feedback. As for the last crack...I'll try not to take it personally, but he keeps asking me for stuff, so some kinds of logical twists could say that my stuff's not quality. It's early, though, and I've not had any caffeine.

Also false. I'm on record...somewhere on this forum, don't have a link...that I hate them and fought against them during development with a passion. I was not alone. I wound up losing that one.

So don't make blanket statements like that. It irritates some of us.

Actually, I am a fan of Ghost in the Shell type connectivity. To me, it is a natural extension of where cybernetics would go - there is a lot of advantage to the industry to have cyberware connected to the matrix, and the general (legal) public would probably be fine with the idea of having their 'ware connected to the matrix.

I'm wondering if most of the complaints is because as shadowrunners, this may make things more difficult, or if it is a dislike of the genre as a whole. The thing is, the Shadowrun world shouldn't 'stagnate' - advancements should be part and parcel of the setting, and this includes evolution of technology. I can easily see the Shadowrun world growing more interconnected when it comes to technology, with a huge chunk of the programming for electronics and cybernetics being 'in the cloud' so to speak. If the matrix is (mostly) everywhere, then the corporations would do well to have everything where they can see them.

Would Shadowrunners hate this? I think a fair chunk would. Does this mean it's bad? Not in my opinion. It just means that Shadowrunners will have to think smarter, and weigh risk vs reward more.

Yeah, for me, this is something between Ghost in the Shell, Enemy of the State, and Minority Report -- three of my favourite movies, all neatly bundled together into a nice package with a bow on top, just for me.

Going on a limb here, but I think that refers to the editing work of Hardy-era product, not his or your writing.


Now I'm curious. Would you share, in brief, the arguments presented in favor of this decision?


Seemingly spiteful and ultimately lazy taking away of basic functions of items to enforce a certain thing that was so scathingly unpopular pretty much nobody wanted to do it, and that it initially turned a number of people off 4th entirely, is not the same as a developing setting. It is a bad design decision, and should be called out as such.

This isn't an advancement. This is a designer deciding to force a game mechanic by making things lose in-game functionality unless a mechanic that has been previously soundly rejected by the players is used, and from everything we've seen, without any in-setting explanation.

Nothing we've yet seen has any explanation for why these things didn't require Matrix access in SR4 but do now, beyond a single paragraph that states they do.

If someone who got their hands on the book at Origins wants to dig through the fluff and see if they mention it, that'd be great, but I'd lay fairly large bets that it never comes up. Because there isn't any good way to explain it in-game other than writer fiat.

Maybe but the basical goal to get the hacker alongside of the other characters is a good idea. Whether my pricing is too high or not isn't the core of the debate.

I have an idea that may be consistent with the game setting AND follows the goal of having the decker active and usefull in a fight.



Does one have to be usefull is another separate debate.

Oh, that's easy: The corps wanted it. See also: the New Matrix.

For them, it's all a win. For Shadowrunners, it's a gamble ... more power, but more vulnerabilities. Are the bonuses worth the risk?

For Bob Average, it's a no-brainer. His wireless came on as soon as it was installed and the corp gives him frequent updates and better functionality than Frank has, who's stuck with a lame non-wireless model from four years back. He can show it off at gatherings, including the new features, and talk about how it interacts with things and everyone ooos and ahhhs. And since the New Matrix is unhackable, everyone with commlinks can take pictures of it while he's safe and secure in the knowledge that he's completely safe, unless one of those dirty nasty Technomancers comes around. Somebody should really lock those freaks up!

For me, I find it interesting that a lot of the arguements against this are almost word for word what you get from the current Xbox One talk, to which I say... good! But not for the reasons people might think. I want that anger directed in the in-character world. I want 'runners to feel betrayed and be snarly at the corps. I want Shadowrunners who make runs against the powers that be because they *hate* those guys (and get paid) rather than being high-level experts that work for those guys first and foremost and shrug about it being 'just business' as they kick SINless squatters out of a run-down clinic to make it easier for a corp to roll in and tear it down to build a new thing. (Wow, that was a run-on!) ... I want 'runners that sit around and go, "Chummer, this new world is oppressive and Orwellian and Do Not Want ... we might not be rich corporates, but we're *free*, and we'll fight back!" ... get some of that old school Neo-Anarchy up in people's grills again.

I *don't* want people going, "Stupid Catalyst. These rules suck. Houserule ALL the things!"

Hopefully, the initial waves will pass as more and more people get the book and see both the crunch *and* the ongoing fluff. Or will at least be re-directed into an IC format. People that are upset against Big Brother and want to strike out is rather a nice story seed, I think, and that's a flavor that got lost over the years during the switch from 2nd ed and 3rd... for a lot of people, the corps went from being the Bad Guys to being "Where the money comes from", and the resistance movements vanished. Hopefully, this will start bringing some of that back.

Except, by the book, this new wireless paradigm is somehow affecting gear made 20 years ago.

Because there is no in-universe explanation for most of it, just "wireless makes everything better!"

Fortunately, it appears that simply houseruling the wireless bonus rules away won't measurably affect the game, since there's already plenty of routes for hackers to exploit even without them.



-k

That's the thing. The characters have no reason to be angry, as without there being an explicit change, this is business as usual for them. Even if it's a change, as presented they've got no reason to be angry at the corps anyway, as the ones exploiting it would be... other Deckers. Shadowrunners just like them.

The anger is entirely in the PEOPLE CATALYST IS TRYING TO SELL THE NEW EDITION TO.

But this still ignores that while it makes sense for junk the corporations are selling to consumers, it might be the dumbest idea in history for a product they are selling to a military, or are issuing to their own door kickers.

Taking it back to the good old days, cyberdecks were differentiated from normal cyberterminals because the deckers had ripped apart and rewritten parts of the firmware to eliminate all the undesired "features" in the OS that would make them trackable, or might potentially impede illicit matrix activity. Where is that spirit in this? Why didn't the street doc who put in Joe Street Samurai's wired reflexes and reaction enhancer come up with a kludge that lets them interact with each other at full effectiveness without exposing him to the risk of getting shut down by GOD? You can't claim to want to go back to the good old days of the Neo-As without embracing the idea of repurposing The Man's tools to use them against him.

Probably. Like I said, I hadn't had any caffeine, so I wasn't entirely sure how to parse that one.

I can't. I can say that I fought it, but the actual arguments are still, I think, covered by NDA. I'll see if I can do some paraphrasing, but I'd rather not cross that particular line if I can help it and haven't already.

Sorry, not gonna happen.

The Hacker already had something to do in combat. He puts his commlink down, draws a machine pistol and starts laying down covering fire for the Sammy.
Or he calls in a drone strike.
Or he hacks the other team's drones, or their turrets.
Or he hacks the lights/etcetera.

He does not get to hack the opposition's wired reflexes or their smartguns, because that is retarded, and exists purely for the metagame reason of making him an MMORPG debuff class.

Yeah, sorry. Frankly, I almost wish I had one of those con books, so I could go through the gear and matrix sections line-by-line and make a comprehensive "bringing the sanity back" houserules post.

If something gets haphazardly bolted on, it's fortunately easy to tear off again...

BA HAHAHAHA! Yeah fragging right.

Hacking does not take place in combat-time, entirely due to two reasons:
1) Extended tests (which people seem to be up in arms about getting rid of because "now it makes hacking too fast" and "hackers can now choke me to death with my own cyberarm as a complex action" and "makes him an MMORPG debuff class.")
2) It is not a single test. First you have to Scan (extended test) to locate the correct node. Second you have to hack the target to gain access (extended test). Third you have to actually give the command! which itself may involve yet another (threshold) test. Oh, and if the signal is encrypted, you can add an other extended test between steps 2 and 3. Even if all of these extended tests used up Free Actions (and you got one, plus you could convert simples and complex actions into free actions) it would still take a absolute minimum of two passes to complete this hack-action (unless you're under some kind of delusion that the hacker can roll enough dice to make the thresholds in a single roll without edge....).

I've still yet to see anyone who is so adamantly against gear being hacked comment at all on the dissonance between refusing to accept this, but having no problem with literal mind control spells. Why is a hacker spending 3 passes to shut off your cyberarm totally unacceptable, but the Mage spending 1 pass to turn you into a puppet and start shooting your friends perfectly okay?

I can understand the fluff arguments, the ones that say the change makes no sense from the in-game standpoint that these things that used to be doable without wireless now require wireless. I am all for calling out bad fluff, or unimaginative bonuses, or whatever else. What I do not understand is people whose sole problem seems to be "I hate the idea of losing control of my gear", as if gear/cyber hacking is somehow worse than what is already a part of the game.

Regarding JH:

Errata.

WAR!

Layout.

SR5 online bonuses.

I measure things on what they are, not on what they are said to be or should be or wished to be.

If SR5 will have a usable errata policy (errata documents or errata forum topics, if new printings and PDFs are updated (hello Arsenal PDF) and if online bonuses become offline bonuses except for real online bonuses (like tacnet or drone control) then I will happily pull back what I said.

And yes, I would be (as Hermit) very happy to see a full listing of arguments pro/contra online bonuses from a dev/author point of view (especially considering the fact that hackers were already capable of combat hacking during SR4 (tacnet, drone etc)), because I am still looking for the big selling point.

--



Then CGL should not put up stupid rules. It´s that easy.

SYL

Then you understand the reason why so many people are upset. It´s not about comparing the usefulness of hackers and mages, it´s not about the DPS output of sams and faces - it´s simly in this case about a certain part of matrix rules.

SYL

QFT

I've seen lots of people who are adamantly against any possible reason that would give hackers access to their gear though. Like I said, the people with fluff complaints I can understand (though if the complaint is fluff based, it seems to me the better solution is to find a fluff based solution, not a change to the rules), but there are people whose whole complaint is divorced from the fluff and instead focused on "I don't think this should be possible in the game. It existing at all in any form is something that upsets me", which is a stance that I really can't comprehend. It's like if I decided I wanted to demand a way to turn off my astral connectivity with no drawbacks, so I could be immune to all magic.

Making things which should be combat-hackable hackable in a reasonable amount of time by reducing matrix cruft actions is acceptable - after all, the Sammie doesn't have to waste a pass "acquiring" a target, and while in theory he may have to spend a simple action drawing his weapon, he can bypass that with a "Prove you are this badass to ride" roll.

Also, you failed to counter my "stop playing with your cell phone, draw your gun and start flinging hot lead downrange" argument, which really, is the #1 thing the hacker should be doing in combat. The best time to hack the other guy's drones is before combat starts, so when combat does start, he still thinks they're on his side until they put a long burst into his back.

Ultimately, the "wireless everything" was the problem.

Deckers have always been an iconic part of the Shadowrun universe, but SR4 tried to shoehorn them into a role that not only never existed in the universe prior to that, but also one that just doesn't really make much sense, or ends up being much fun.

Let's be realistic, having a traditional decker in SR1-3 required a group that was patient, and a really good GM who could handle the multi-tasking in order to keep everyone engaged. Sadly, only a handful of us are that fortunate, so decking often got shunted aside. And it's kinda sad, since the game borrowed so directly from Neuromancer, in which the protagonist was effectively a decker.

But in the effort to make the decker a more viable character, the game went too far, introducing mechanics that made the decker a further annoyance to characters that relied on technology. The problem is, these characters were already slowly losing the power creep battle to magically active characters. So the game now had NPC hackers that would screw with your already increasingly ineffective cyberbits. Sweet Brown said it best. Ain't nobody got time for that.

If skinlinks seemed too powerful, it's not because they were. It's because they were exactly the kind of solution that every single Shadowrunner would use. They weren't too powerful. They were exactly the right amount of power, because anyone not using a wireless solution was an idiot. Why would you run anything with an inherent security flaw if there was a simple way to avoid it? The answer is: you wouldn't. I mean, I live in a good neighborhood, but if I park my car on the street for whatever reason, I lock the doors. Why? Because I'd be an idiot not to, and there's a very simple mechanism for basic security that is available for cars.

The excuse that the hacker needs something to do, like it has been pointed out, is bulldrek, to use the parlance of the game. The decker always had something he could do, even if sometimes it was just "pull out a gun and shoot at some dudes".


Basically, what has happened was there was a perceived need for a drastic alteration to the universe done at the time of SR4. It was a good idea in theory (giving the deckers a larger role) but the problem was that it was so poorly conceived and executed that nobody wanted to use it. It seems that the problem is that the SR5 team thought that the solution was trying to fix it, instead of recognizing that it was an inherent flaw in the design itself, and eliminating it. The decker's job is to be the superfreak computer hacker. That's it. A good player gave his decker other reasons and ways to be useful when he wasn't plugged in.

Catalyst would have done a far better job if they'd recognized all the flaws in the design they could fix that would scale back the ridiculous power creep for the mages and combat monsters, which would introduce the parity to make a decker with a halfway decent attribute and skill to be able to shoot a gun and affect the combat. I don't think most decker players were ever concerned that they weren't quite as good as the street sam or physad. They just wanted to feel like they mattered. The problem wasn't that they were underpowered. It was that the rest of the characters were overpowered.

It´s about believability.

One thing is magic. And yes, it´s magic. If magic is too powerful or too weak is an entirely different topic. The other thing is online connectivity, which is enforced for no good reason with explanations in the area of "please wear a glowing pink suit for +3 to initiative". This enforced gameplay is based on a lie (JH claiming that a hacker was not able to contribute enough in combat while completely ignoring tacnets, drones and radio communication)



No one, really no one, has argued that real online activities (like radio communication, tacnet, drone control etc) can be manipulated. Why not exploiting that? Why not give program options and hacker/decker actions on how to manipulate radio communication (with a searing pain due to overload, -x to actions, while your ear almost explode in pain) or that the enemy tacnet can be manipulated by a "mirror room program" where you shoot on your own team with 3 - or, God beware, the fun you could have with 3 marks on an enemy drone). No one here is talking about immunity against certain forms of attack or balance between mind control mages and hacker. It´s about believability, the reason why it exists and metagame reasoning. And in that area this specific kind of rules completely fails.

Edit:
Oh yeah, astral connectivity. Image if everyone (mundane included) is now being forced to become dual natured. Because, you know, mages cannot contribute to physical combat while in astral space. And if you turn of your dual nature, you suffer X negative dices every round. How does that feel? Totally stupid, right?

--

Brainhacking is, again, a totally different topic. It already exists partially in the sixth world (psychotropic ICE, PAB treatment) and yes, it is indeed a very interesting topic. Some does not want it, I, for the record, have nothing against it - if it is done properly. Aka not the JH way.

SYL

I think we are still missing some crucial information in this discussion. And that is, how easy or hard is it to defend myself against hacking attempts on for example my cyberarm.
Is a good commlink with an IC or two enough to discourage most deckers? Or am I absolutely defenseless against hacking attempts if I'm not protected by a decker myself?

Could someone with access to a SR5 book please find some infos about this?

-CJ

Exactly.

I have my own problems with mind control magics, but they're not germane to this issue because they've been written into the system from the start as something that can happen. There is a massive amount of in-game reasoning and exposition on just how magic works, especially as concerns influencing other people.

The better comparison here would be if everyone were made physads, and mages were allowed to ground spells through all such astrally active targets from astral space. Players could sacrifice their power points in exchange for not being subject to this.

That sort of thing would get just as much pushback as this is.

What astral connectivity?

Then again, with some modifications your comparison actually works: Criticizing the concept of everything being coerced to go online just to allow some Neo tricks for hackers? That is like deciding you do not want every person in the universe to be permanently dual-natured because you believe a permanent threat of being mana-nuked by Astral entities does not belong into the setting.

Great minds think alike, I see.

Actually - this does not really matter that much. Because there is another thing to consider.

If you are online, your signal can be found and tracked. Depending on the situation even that alone is enough to alert the authority and to screw the entire run (it´s like in SR4 with hidden networks). Of course you can disable your online connectivity or simply reduce signal range to 0 or 1 (which was quite common in SR4, depending on the situation). If you do that in SR5 however, your cyberware and items are ... suboptiomal.

There was a basic explanation on how the matrix rules work in the Quick Start rules. I do not recall the details but my impression was that the hacker defense for "non hackers" was far weaker then the attack when the attacking decker and the defending item was on a comparable power level. But I would have to check again.

SYL

Well, this is still shadowrun... so running the shadows should still be possible. Which means I totally expect that there are some countermeasures against being tracked through the matrix. Something similar to the Hidden Mode in SR4. Because without such a thing that game is dead...

-CJ

Oh, believe me, I'm about the last person who'll get the Xbox1984. Not even for the aggressive DRM, but for the fact this fucking thing is a bug for the NSA planted into my living room, a bug which monitors who visits me, records what is said, records faces, records emotional expressions, and daily sends that collected data it straight to the KGB America for all I know. And then they expect me to shell out $499 for this. No thank you.

The problem is, this isn't really justified by any in-game development. Because it affects legacy ware. Because it affects things that before never needed wireless. Because it just goes too far and is poorly handled, thought out, and written. It is an out-game change forced onto the world because some people apparently wanted combat hacking so bad they never bothered to think about what collateral damage this causes, or whether or not to handle wifi boni with care.

I can get the basic idea, though actually, changing the combat hacking mechanic would have sufficed, even reached the intended goal of the combat hacker as a standard much more successfully. Because in the current, all-hackable-or-all-crap setup? The hacker will nto be crapping the enemy's guns. The hacker will be scrambling his best to try and prevent the team to be killed by hacking, while the rest of the team except for the mage is, basically, dead weight that occasionally shoots in case it is not being hacked right now. You made mundane cyber characters pretty redundant with this move, as it seems now.


Uhm, no. Because this is not what these rules changes are. These rules changes are fucking players over, not runners, in-game. And besides, these changes look like they kill the concept of a cybered runner, which is more than a bit sad for a cyberpunk setting.


The problem is: these are not bonuses at all. These are basic functionalities taken away unless you go all-hackable.


But, unless the actual rules are extremely misrepresented in this discussion, you will get exactly that, or workaround like bio-sams, more awakened characters, or opt-out skillmonkeys.


Pity, though understandable. I'd still like to know. Maybe we're overlooking something; after all, I doubt I'm the only one who doesn't have an origins pre-release book.


Which was what I said at the beginning of SR4. It becam handleable with Skinlink. Now, it is a problem again.


That was a carryover from SR1 and SR2, really, with it's elaborate Data Dungeons. SR3's Matrix system in Matrix, for the few who ever read it and worked into it, was mechanically crassly different from the trest of the game, but made Matrix runs no more time consuming than Astral runs by mages. And nobody ever complained about them. Both the decker and the mage are effectively short-term teamsplits. With the small houserule that deckers and everyone else operate on the same initiative turns, you could even play a viable combat hacker concurrent with everyone else in the same combat! Of course not hacking everybody and their dog's cybernetics, but the environment, which can be pretty lethal too.


Well. It's still possible if you play an opt-out awakened, a bio-augmented mundane or a decker, I suppose (barring some great defense mechanism that nobody mentioned yet). It kills all cybered characters (and maybe also riggers, depending how they get shafted this edition). Except if you houserule that stuff out, which looks increasingly like the best solution.

Of course, if that's the best solution, I know I at least won't be buying the book.

I'm not up to pay $50 or so for the privilege of fixing the dev team's fuckups and making their game playable.