No, they aren't. Their commlinks are off, with the battery in a separate pocket.

Really, that's the biggest setting-breaking thing there. The level of freely available sensors that would have to be Matrix-accessible to enable that kind of thing, when combined with GOD's apparent chokehold on Matrix traffic....

Well, let's just say a camera every six inches all over the sprawl, all feeds being correlated at GOD, means that the ideas of anonymity and plausible deniability for runners go right out the window.

Also, "Hey, we're going to install a Smartlink in your gun that wants to wirelessly connect to the Matrix to pick up data to help you fire! It's got to have a pinpoint GPS tracker in it to be effective, and we're TOTALLY not going to use that to record data on when and where you use it!"

Nowhere did I say that Shadowrunners would like this type of connectivity, but I'm certain there would be ways around some of it to, while remaining connected. After all, if I'm in Canada, and I want to watch HULU, which is region locked, there are ways to do this, spoofing where I am, so that I can watch it. In the same vein, I'm certain some Shadowrunners want all the perks of being wired, but want to keep anonymity, and I'm certain there will be ways to do that, too.

And, speaking of Smartlink, sure, GPS and target finder would be the default things that they do. However... how much do you bet that's not the only thing these things do? I'm certain Ares, Renraku, SK, Aztechnology, and other companies have their own little perks they provide "free of charge" which requires a connection to the Matrix. (I'm looking at you, XBoxOne....)

I can think of a few options a smartlink can have that would require matrix connection, so this doesn't seem far-fetched. Now, is it something Shadowrunners would want going on? No, of course not. However, I consider this a setting thing, and the setting doesn't have to cater to the Shadowrunners -the Shadowrunners have to evolve to the new reality.

This is one reason I can disconnect how I feel about the changes, with how some of my characters would feel. Some of them would absolutely hate this, because it makes their life difficult. (Some of them would adore it, because it makes their life easier - but then, they deal with high society). Me? I just find it interesting as hell.

Agreed, while i on the whole like fifth edition (i picked up a book at Origins and have done a complete 180) the simple fact is it's a lot easier to "go dark" as a mage then as a cybered character. Between that and things like the first aid penalty for essence loss and social pool penalty means there has never been a better edition to play a mage, even with the spell damage nerfs.

Most of mine would be fraking confused as hell when their non-wireless enabled gear suddenly one day stops working like it should for no reason.

this is shadowrun, not D&D.

your mage can use the exact same gun as the street samurai, unless your street samurai just happens to have a way higher strength and is using that strength to haul around a gun that would normally be vehicle-mounted.

and i'm not convinced that combat spells were ever really the best solution for dealing damage. they were certainly a very good solution some of the time, especially on certain targets, but for all-around usefulness, i think it has generally been better to use a gun or explosive anyways.

It's not that some of us don't know, it's that "realism" doesn't really matter in a game that's clearly thrown so much of it out the window. There's no way to reconcile Shadowrun's long-existing firearm classifications, gun rules, and combat systems with something like real-life firearms without throwing a whole lot of stuff out the window, and introducing whole new levels of complexity, and all of that is silly to do -- IMO -- in a game where ballistic gelatin shot results probably don't matter too much because you're shooting at a troll who's covered in sheet metal and kevlar with titanium-laced bones anyways. And, more to the point, what some of us know about guns doesn't matter, if that's not the chapter we're pitching and the stuff we've been contracted to write. We're freelancers. We write what we're paid to write, and that's not often "overhaul the entire system, start to finish, to make fold in more real-life gun knowledge."

But hey, thanks for taking the cheap shot.

We need an unofficial CanRay supplement...

CanRay's Stash: A guide to Projectile Weaponry, Stabby Things, and You.

I'd buy it... as long as it was for 4th Edition.

Alternatively, "Mungo's Guide to Bang Bang"

Even small efforts to subvert a system like that would be highly effective. Surveillance on that scale would work when things were working, i.e, against normal folks, but would have incredible overhead to detect even small attempts to undermine.

Why? Because the overhead of capturing data and even analyzing captured data is dwarfed compared to the overhead of capturing data, analyzing, AND VALIDATING data. And since the cost of validating data would be enormous, combined with the very, very, very low liklihood that that data would need to be validated at all to begin with, it likely wouldn't be.

This is called 'Risk Acceptance' in the world of Security Engineering. A 'compensating control' would come in the former of a Corporate sponsored hit squad who actually performs the legwork necessary to get to the bottom of things, when it matters.

Additionally, Corps have a vested interest in maintaining plausible deniability, even were such a system not easy to subvert -- Therefore it would be subverted anyway.

Thus Shadowrunners continue to exist. Along side big data. In harmony.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

No offense, then it seems fairly pointless for Aaron to ask the question he did.

I wasn't asking you to replicate something amazing like 93 Studio's Reflex System. That's way more detail than most Shadowrun players want to involve themselves into. I'm just suggesting that perhaps it isn't a good idea to give any kind of real world analogies or explanations if you're not a subject matter expert. If Shadowrun had rules for building bridges, I wouldn't make too many comments about whether or not they were realistic. The bottom line is that the idea of a smartgun link needing to download data in realtime from the environment is kinda silly. And there's a reason why many of us have been saying that,which I outlined.


Nobody asked though. These were unsolicited answers. If you're just a freelancer, and the answer is "I don't know", then... I mean, I never tried to explain the rules for weekend libbo, or why we were forming up at the armory three hours before the range to Lance Coolies. We're not attacking you as freelancers, just the people who created the rules. Though, to be fair, what "you" (meaning CGL) did was actually overhaul the entire system to force the wireless mechanic on players. Once for SR4, and again, even worse it seems, for SR5. So, if you or anyone else here was part of that process, you bear a certain amount of culpability. It's really all a matter of how you choose to identify yourself. "I write stuff for Shadowrun sometimes" or "I'm actually a representative of the Shadowrun license." If it's the former, then there's really no reason to be upset.

And it really wasn't a cheap shot. Game designers are notoriously awful at designing guns, lol. 40K, for example. Good freaking lord. Chaos bolters with ammunition belts hanging out of the magazine wells but with no discernible feed tray? Maybe that's why they were all mutated, because it would take three arms to effectively load the thing. A large number of Shadowrun's weapons concepts have come half from stolen but misunderstood real world ideas, and half from complete imagination.

It's the Interwebs. It's full of really dumb and stubborn people you should ignore most of the time. But there's also a fair number of really smart people who, if they're giving you a fairly long and detailed answer, it might just be true. Hey though, I mean I just gave you the quick and dirty on how a smartgun system would actually function. You can use that in the future to lend a higher level of authenticity to your work.

Yeah, in a world where hell is an interstellar travel medium and people build 10 km long space churches, that's really inexcusable.

As I said before, what's normal for one edition, might not be normal for the next. For example, in 3rd Edition and prior, you had dikote. In 4th edition, it's presumed everything is dikoted that could be dikoted - but they removed the 'can cut through cars' thing. "Hey, why's my dikoted katana not doing massive damage to objects anymore?" - Because, as of 4th edition - dikote doesn't do that. You used to be able to burst fire with a smartlink, and not hit allies. That got taken out. If you used the Path of the Wheel, you used to have some nifty bonuses from it - removed.

And it isn't 'this stuff suddenly stops working / vanishes'. This is a new edition. In-setting, some of this stuff just never existed. You can try to explain why things suddenly changed, or you can accept the edition's going to be a bit different. Or, for some things, you can look at it, muddle out why things have shifted, and go with it (I've got my pet explanations, they make perfect sense, and I'll roll with that until I get the book and see if I'm right or not).

So. If you had non-wireless gear in 4th edition, you can presume that they're still non-wireless in 5th edition, and use the 5th edition rules. That's how they always worked (accepting rule differences). Or, alternatively, you can presume that the gear now work 'okay' without connection, and 'better' (and as good as the old gear) with, and presume they stopped making wire-free gear, and stopped supporting wire-free gear. (The PS3 and PS3 slim effect - where the former was able to play PS2, and be hacked for Linux, and the PS3 slim... didn't, and wasn't). Any of these are viable.

LOL. Sometimes I wonder why I bother. Nevermind.

I'm thinking about London at the moment, and the system they've got going there. And now putting it on a global scale. And this little voice in my head is squeeing in delight. I've seen some of what the programs do for London's cameras. It's absolutely delightful. You mill around a bench, drop off a briefcase, then wander off, and the cameras - without human interference, have studied your body language, your facial expressions, gauged how long you were there, notices the briefcase dropped off, and runs a risk-assessment on the item after a period of time, before contacting humans to potentially send in the bomb squad or the police. It studies loiterers, looking for potential risks, gatherings, in an attempt to gauge 'mood', and does a hell of a lot of other things, including predictive prevention.

The entire thing's just incredible. I love it. This should have been 'par for the course' in Shadowrun ages ago.

It certainly makes the concept of AAA Security Zones more intimidating for runs. "Sir come with us. I have a gun in pocket and sniper trained on your position. Oh, and sir I need you to keep smiling, nod a bit and walk casually or I'll be forced to shoot you. Great sir. You're doing well. Now wave friendly hello to the giant freaking troll in the van that has a large gun aimed at you, and climb in. No seriously, wave hello and keep smiling."

You might not have intended to be a cheap shot, but from where I'm sitting it certainly was. Your assertion is that, because Shadowrun firearms aren't terribly realistic, it must be because "Shadowrun writers or artists, lol" don't know any better. If I were to turn that around, and say that obviously the players are a bunch of ignorant buffoons who don't know anything about firearms -- they must not! they're playing the game! -- then I'm willing to bet the response might be something along the lines of "No, some of us know better, we just don't care that much because there's other stuff in the game we like so we still play it."

And that's pretty much how it is for the writers, too. We've got cops and military vets writing for us, to say nothing of civilian enthusiasts (with some training) like myself. Lots of us know better. Lots of us know guns don't work the way they do in the game. The point of my last post was just that we don't feel like that knowledge is worth trying to scrap 20+ years of the game over, to try and make it something it's not (and never will be).

That's the problem. SR4 started the trend, and everything we've been told about GOD points to it continuing, that the writers have decided to blissfully ignore the processing power and storage requirements of actually implementing what they want the Matrix to be like.

The level of observation and assets on hand required for GOD to actively respond to hacks in realtime dwarfs what it took to run full-on Ultraviolet systems capable of supporting a rampant AI.




And yet it's worth scrapping 20+ years worth of worldbuilding on how cyberware in general and DNI in specific works to force a wireless mechanic that has often been defended as 'well, wireless is everywhere in real life!'?

Come on, man.

You just don't seem to understand that not everyone is as interested in guns as you are. Many - I'd say, most - players can suspend disbelief about things like caliber and weapons classifications and weapons add-ons much easier than a lot of other things.

But that's the thing. Nobody asked anyone to do that. Games are all about abstraction because trying to quantify everything that factors into a real world action would be ludicrously boring. Phoenix Command tried to do that. Only like 8 people played that game, and they're still trying to finish. Gamers don't care that the writers don't know how real guns work. We just want to be able to roll dice with a reasonable understanding that what we're trying to do makes sense in the context of how our imaginary character is interacting with our imaginary world. You're obviously missing my point, so I'll try to clarify it. The point is not that the rules were written by somebody who doesn't understand how guns work. That much is obvious. The reason I was making about Shadowrun's designers and artists coming from a long line of people who don't know anything (substantial) about guns in the first place was because a writer for Shadowrun was making the suggestion that the smartgun link should function in a particular way when there are a lot of us who know for a fact that it would not. It's simple cause an effect. If you (individually) know better, but you weren't involved in the process, then it has nothing to do with you, and you're all good.

Just don't defend an rule that abstracts an action that wouldn't occur in a believable incarnation of an alternate real world. That's what the smartgun does if it has to be linked into the Matrix in order to function properly because there's no discernible realtime data that it should need from the Matrix that it would be able to be supplied with via that connection. I don't actually care whether or not Aaron (or you, or anyone else) actually knows how guns work. It would be helpful if somebody in the rules design did though. Then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

In short: Abstract "real life", fine. Abstract fantasy, fine. Abstract "not-real life", bad. We're not talking about explaining how fireballs get thrown or even how cyberdecks work. This is the sort of technology we can understand because the science of ballistics is hundreds of years old, and geometry is even older. Making that technology feasible, practical and miniaturized down to the pistol scale is the only thing we haven't mastered yet.

No. What you don't understand is that I wasn't worried about whether or not 40K guns made sense, they were just an example that game designers often design guns that wouldn't actually work. This is why if you think about making a snarky comment, you should make sure you understand what the original author was trying to say.

I'll assume you just don't speak English as a first language, and forgive your misunderstanding.

I can't, and I won't defend all matrix bonuses, though I like the general concept.

That said, software development in the world of Shadowrun would naturally lead to matrix connectivity required for most devices. At least, as far as modern trends show.

A bit of background. Today, major software companies are working on making JavaScript, an interpreted language, function nearly as fast as native code, and on almost every PC, tablet, and phone regardless of chipset, OS, or browser. The bleeding edge has JavaScript based web servers and databases designed to function across multiple sets of hardware. It has frameworks that share the exact same code on both the server and the client, allowing processing to occur on either depending on need. And it's all being made fast and easy.

The Matrix is a mesh network. The common development frameworks would encourage loading software packages from online hubs. They would automatically do data distribution and duplication to make software development easier.

Software Developers are the reason the Matrix is tied into everything, because the vast majority of developers are Matrix developers. Building based on Matrix hosted modules and APIs is faster and easier. So much so, that it's rarely worth the expense to do otherwise. Especially if device manufacturers have to license software packages, and those licenses require that devices always grab the latest versions.

This, of course, isn't optimal for Shadowrunners, or even high level corporate security. There are then two paths away from this. First, buy more expensive, higher grade ware built by the more expensive developers who know how to work with integrated software. Second, find one of those expensive developers who will modify your gear to work offline.

Not all matrix bonuses can be explained this way. Also, Matrix development frameworks would logically allow for short-term offline mode, though in such a state would lose access to any external services.

Even there, a gun that rapid-fires RPG missiles that for some reason have no discernible propellant at all has bigger plausibility problems than invisible feed trays. Besides, 40K cares about plausible representation of technology about as much as Greyhawk D&D does. Talk about a poorly chosen example.


If you want to be taken serious, try not ending sentences in "LOL". So far, all I see is someone who is very full of himself and lacks proper conduct.


You're in no position to 'forgive' me anything.

That's not an explanation, that's an attempt to headcanon in a way for it to have been retroactively correct. Despite, you know, thirty in-gameworld years and dozens of sourcebooks worth of explanation on exactly how things don't work that way.

Sorry man, it just doesn't follow. It doesn't even follow for real-world software development, because there's no way in hell anyone would have anything life-critical (and anything that replaces large chunks of your nervous system, or major organs, is clearly life-critical) running on a setup that requires a network connection to function.

FWIW, I'd argue that, instead, the New Matrix is an attempt to reconcile the 12 years of old-school SR Matrix with ~8 years of wireless SR4 Matrix, making fluff and crunch line up with both at once.

Whether it succeeds or not is up to individual players, but it's also not quite the same discussion -- I know you had a smiley face and all, don't get me wrong! -- as the firearm one. No one's saying "zomg Matrix is so silly clearly no one that's ever written for Shadowrun knows how to turn on a computer," or something. In both instances, though, the thing is that stuff like game balance, playability, and the game world as it's already been presented? They all win out over "realism."

Good lord. It doesn't matter. The Chinaman is not the issue here, Dude.


You do realize that LOL is like emoticons. They are intended to give contextual understanding of the tone of a piece of written word since online, sentiment cannot always easily be understood.

You were wrong. You misunderstood. Let it go. It doesn't make you a bad person that you made a mistake, but I don't appreciate your continued trolling.

They do!

Which really makes me boggle why the game designers who are getting paid for their efforts are ignoring the game world as it's already been presented to cram in more of what the players of SR4 discarded as a hindrance to playability.

How, exactly, does that require the wireless boni as presented in the book?


No, it is not, which is why there's a little button to add emoticons.

Try to be a bit (okay, a lot) less condescending, and maybe people will actually listen to what you say.

For what it's worth, your mass of lols comes across as very condescending. As does your generous offer of letting the authors use your wisdom to make a better game. Your stealth edit earlier didn't sound too good either.

Maybe reflect on that a little, Kruger.

Maybe not, but all I'm trying to tell you is that some writers DO know how real guns work, they just don't care enough to try and change an existing game system. The longer you post, the longer it becomes clear that you're really hung up on the idea that people don't know things that you know -- really hung up on it -- and what you need to realize is that that is not always the case. Not everyone who is disagreeing with you is misunderstanding you. Sometimes we're just disagreeing with you.


If you don't mean things about Shadowrun writers and artists, maybe you shouldn't say things about Shadowrun writers and artists. That's okay. I'll just assume English isn't your first language and forgive this misspeaking.

Smart people listen to intelligent content, regardless of tone. Besides, I said nothing bad. I asked what his reference was to qualify a statement, since I knew it to be untrue.

And let's be realistic, you were insulting to me first. If you want to be treated nicely, you should start that way. Did you expect me to take your condescending tone better? Especially when your condescension was based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the material you were quoting and insulting me for? We're adults here. Act like one.

It's not worth much. I used lol twice in seven posts. I apologize for the "mass".

Look, I can't help being right. If that upsets the people who were wrong, that is unfortunate. But it doesn't make me rude.

Just wow.

Yes of course. You can't imagine being wrong. All is well with the world. Just go on
I'm back to my popcorn.

But the system was changed, so we know this isn't correct. Whether or not "some" writers do, enough didn't in decision making positions that the rules were changed. Again though, I don't know why you're so fixated on this idea if you weren't a shot caller.

I love that I'm the only one here acting with any modicum of restraint and regards to the rules on the forum for being polite.

Looks like you guys need a little break from this discussion...

Oh, and don't continue it in another thread, please.

Bye
Thanee