Are you joking, or did you just forget that the SR3 programming rules (if I remember correctly, my Matrix 2.0 book's out in the gameroom) had rules for the programming tests to write your own firmware. Down to custom-written MPCP chips for decks, and everything you need to know to print and burn your own chips for it.

Offering such firmware wasn't a commercial thing in SR3 because it didn't need to be, any decker worth the name could fix it in their sleep.

You need not come up with runner gear that suffered similar "faults", because that wasn't the part I was talking about. I was talking about the fact that prior to the SotA books of 3rd Ed. file sharing, cracking and firmware reprogramming on a broader scale were virtually non-existant on a technical level (at least fluff wise). Deckers "cooked" their firmware chips for their decks but that kind of was it. Pretty much everything else was (near) perfect closed source and most of the tech needed computer resources (in form of large host systems) that kept things out of the grey market. Removing programming faults from existant code was extremely difficult even for good coders.

So I can actully fathom the idea of coders not (yet) having found ways around these "wireless on" restrictions within the core rules (and providing the means in form of an advanced ruleset in SR5's version of Unwired wouldn't surprise me the least), since the "you can't touch this" idea in coding isn't new to SR ... However, that doesn't change the fact that I also find this particular implementation to be one of the most ridiculous changes in SR historyy.

I can think of a way that this make sense...

The onboard chemical scanner does not have enough memory to keep a list of every possible chemical so it uploads what it detects and lets a central sever decide if it should do something about it. And the corporations can use it as a marketing ploy to the general public.... get real time smog alerts in your area from all of your neighbors from this device.
Or
Your smartgun can get accurate up-to-date localized wind and weather conditions out to 2000m so it can predict bullet trajectory and factor in the wind/rain whatever during the entire flight time instead of estimating it when you fire.

Now... That is not saying I agree with the rule and I would not use it anyway. But it is easy to come up with in-game logic for devices getting bonuses for being always connected.

Yeah, but look at when most SR3 books were written, lol. They have at least somewhat of an excuse for anachronisms.

Nope. SR4/5 is just stupid.

My two cents:
I like this rational. It fits right in with the fact that everyone hates DRM, but still buys shit with invasive DRM and puts up with it anyway despite their loathing of it.



As to this:
The players might but who says the opposition did? This change gives PC hackers toys to mess with too, you know.

The opposition is generally other 'runners and/or corpsec. Neither will likely have invasive DRM issues, either due to being issued non-problematic versions by their employers, or being in the same sort of mindset as the players.

Edition differences are one thing. Wired Reflexes in SR4 couldn't possibly work mechanically the same as Wired Reflexes in SR3 or SR5, because the Initiative system is different, Reaction is different, and the whole device needs to be tuned specifically to the edition rules (+2 in one edition may not equal +2 in another edition). That's all fine and dandy.

What's being implemented here, though, is a change in the lore of how things work, with accompanying mechanical changes to back up that lore.

Compare Smartlinks. Smartlinks no longer make it easier to hit, out of the box. They make the gun "more accurate" (which doesn't give you an actual bonus in order to accomplish shooting). Smartlinks in SR3 made it easier to hit by lowering the TN. Smartlinks in SR4 made it easier to hit by giving you extra dice. Now Smartlinks no longer make it easier to hit unless you hook it up to some network (presumably). That's a fundamental change in the lore of the Smartlink. Smartlinks no longer do what they used to do unless you take some extra steps with them that weren't required previously.

That's my whole point in the matter -- the imposition of online-vulnerable gear is a change in the way the SR universe works, with accompanying mechanical changes. What kills me is that there doesn't seem to be an accompanying lore reason for technology taking this tack. It's being set out there with a "oh this is how they work" without regard for adapting the existing universe rules to the new universe rules.

This is the same sort of thing that crashed shaman and mage summoning into one lumpy mush, or converted Otaku (with their necessary cyberware) into Technomancers (who are allergic to cyberware in the same way as mages). The universe changed, presumably to satisfy some developer's desires, but it didn't really change for a good, evaluated reason.

But it was already possible in SR4 - in a far more logical way.

SYL

There are plenty of other things they could've added for hackers, anyway:

1) CorpSec upgrades -- corporate security uses integrated visual and audio recorders as mobile sensors for the security base station. Isolating and neutralizing security personnel requires a hacker to shut them out of communications and replace them with a dummy so the system doesn't notice and sound an alarm.

2) Immediate security rigging -- technology is now advanced enough that decks can grab specific objects. Rather than having to fully hack a site to get a specific camera or door panel, you can directly hack any object you can isolate (IE, see). A good AR observe in detail type action could be to scan and tag broadcasting devices and dump them on yours or your team's visual overlay.
The hacker leans out into the hallway and runs a scan. Popped up on his monocle are the symbols and device names for a camera, an elevator RFID scanner, and a laser tripwire. He disables the tripwire and puts the camera into a loop. A better-hidden decibel meter in the ceiling is missed by the hacker's sweep, though..

3) Decoys. The hacker sets up a remote relay on the other side of the compound, and uses it to brute force attack the security node. CorpSec quickly tracks the location of the the hacker and sends a security detachment, and then finds.. a small box with an antenna. Meanwhile, the team has broken into the lab, snatched the MacGuffin, and made it back over the fence before security got wise to what was happening.

Other stuff, for sure.

If they keep it from SR4a they have Image Link and Video Recording included.

Fun note, if standard cybereyes come with Image Link and Video Recording, are hackable by default, and GOD sees all Matrix traffic, doesn't that mean that every Joe Salaryman with a set of cybereyes is a mobile security camera for the AAA's?

Hold on to your hat, you're about to get shredded, boyo.



So, exactly what happened to the "Unless you're dealing with truely spectacular amounts of data, memory has gotten so small and so cheap that you have enough computer memory to store whatever you need to store" thing? Hmmm? Where did that go - what happened, did some Great Dragon or Immortal Elf wave a magic wand and reduce all computer storage memory to 1/1000th of its size on 1/1/2075?

No, they did not.

Also, even taking your preposterous claim that the suit's onboard storage has to contain every imaginable chemical warfare agent (instead of just saying, for instance, "Okay, something unknown was detected, seal up,") what about my commlink? It's going to be much faster for it to access my commlink than "the cloud" or the "central server," and for my commlink to say "hey, seal up." Or, better still, for me to just say "Hey, holy shit, that guy threw a grenade and there's a green cloud coming out of it, DNI command: Seal up!"

Preposterous, that's what this claim is. It's trying to retroactively justify a game "balance" decision that nobody wanted.




Funnily enough, my commlink - you know, the choke-point where my PAN has the highest security - does that anyway, and is feeding that data to my smartlink via my skinlink, or even my fiber-optic cable, if I'm feeling particularly retro. Also, this presumes that weather data which has a granularity fine enough to determine differences between where I am and where I'm shooting at is actually available, which is unlikely unless the world has carpeted in miniature weather stations.




No, it is not. Not any of them that stand up to more than a moment's scrutiny.

Could we please stop making the smartlink into a tacnet. A smartlink makes a crosshair visible in our field of vision. It is not a tacnet.

SYL

Additional 2 cents:

People are complaining that the changes to the matrix system are worse than they were before?
Golly gee, what a surprise.

This only further enforces the opinion that the matrix is unfixable. That is: no set of rules is going to work for everybody. Sit down, shut up, and play.

The discussion is not about the matrix rule system itself, but a rather important design/lore decision, that everything need to be online, to get bonuses (besides limit breaking). And that is not unfixable (because it was not there in the first place, but added in SR5).

SYL

Exactly. The rest of what we've seen of SR5's Matrix setup has been pretty well accepted. Converting hacking to no longer be as time consuming, and simplifying the way programs and ratings work are exactly what many people were calling for as the fix to SR4's problems.

It's the always-on bullshit that's got people riled.

That was something the designers wanted, because they took the players not wanting it in SR4 as an incentive to introduce it more forceful in SR5. And what's much, much worse, they did so lazily and in the worst possible way. Wireless Boni are a good tool, if they're actually Boni. As is, they're taking away functionality unless you bend over to be device hacked.

Please explain how that works if the chem seal isn't connected to anything.

But it is, just not to the matrix.

If you can shut off your commlink's wireless, sure. I'm still wondering if that's explicitly made possible in SR5.

Some thoughts. Anger directed at me for them will be ignored.

If using a skinlink, would it be fair for a hacker that can touch you or something connected to you through it to hack your things?

If something touching you is skinlink capable and matrix enabled, could it be hacked to serve as a bridge to you by enabling the skinlink capability?

Could there be a special round (dart) especially for attaching this kind of bridge onto you?

If using fiber cables, would it be fair for a critical glitch on a damage resistance test to result in a bullet going right through one?

Could some combatants well-versed in cyberware knowledge purposely target those wires with a well-placed slash, not unlike going for the jugular? Could a very skilled sniper try his luck?

Could bandwidth be an issue? Could wireless protocols of the future implement a nearly full-spectrum approach that at very near distance can utilize the combined bandwidth equivalent to multiple high definition satellite channels (by today's standards).

Could the difference between the speed of light traveling in a direct, straight line between your systems, and therefore potentially remotely hackable, make any difference as opposed to the speed of light through fiber (slower) that may need to curve to reach its destination (requiring a slightly longer distance)? What about the latency of converting an electrical signal into photons able to travel through the fiber, as opposed to the electrical current needed to broadcast? Is it plausible that your body or nerves are also not as fast?

Does this nerf cybered characters in favor of deckers? If cyberware is unable to let characters safely max out their intuition, does that further empower magicians that can, and can do it for their teammates?

If you can't then you just use a signal 0 commlink for your PAN, but really not being able to turn of commlinks wireless would be some serious BS.

You are talking about standard setups in SR4? Because that is what you are asking, and it was already answered throughout the sourcebooks in SR4.



Well, lets just say that playing a troll streetsam (especially if they get the first version of the basic book with +50% cost for troll cyberware and troll bioware *giggle*) won´t perhaps the most popular character choice ever. My bet is the mystic adept with an area jammer.

SYL

You know a lot of the problems seem to come from the issue that rather than total immunity, you rely on your hacker to defend you. Similarly, a big problem I have with the magic rules is that the only way to protect against magic, is with magic. There seems to be a strong parallel here where you have a hacker on your team not just to fuck with the enemy team, but also to protect your own. Similarly you have a Mage not just for his magic shenanigans, but to prevent enemy casters from tearing you apart like tissue paper.

It almost feels like what's needed is a third axis, something that Sammys protect their teammates against that without them would kill the mages/hackers. Problem is, there's really nothing that fits that bill in any logical sense. Alternatively there should be relatively cheap/easy ways for people not belonging to a certain specialization to defend themselves from attacks of another specialization (ie how Armor protects Hackers/Mages from bullets).

Even with Signal 0, you're gonna be online. And not being able to turn of wireless sounds like something the corps would put together.

You mean, like in SR4, with disabled wifi, a centralised PAN, a secured commlink with an agent/ICE running surveillance? Which every non-hacker could buy for some thousand ¥, depending on which rule you use?

JH already stated, that this had crippled the hacker in combat and is no longer wished. You MUST be hackabale, otherwise the hacker has NO options in combat (because there is no tacnet, drone remote control or radio communication to manipulate in SR4)

SYL

Nah, you can still run with your Matrix connection off.

You just get gimped for doing that.




-k

No anger.

I think this was part of the mistake of making previously cyber-only gear available as non-cyberware. If you look at the transition from SR3 to SR4, a lot of the really important benefits of smartlinks, cybereyes, and cyberears (primarily those three) were restricted to installed cyberware. SR4 took those things and applied them without penalty to small bits of gear you could wear with no essence loss.

That is, you could wear vision-enhancement contact lenses with a display link and skinlink connected to your smartlink, and earbuds with spatial recognizers and record everything on your commlink (skinlinked) and transmit information to your team without ever using an invasive bit of cyberware. By and large you could skip the transmission step and keep everything local.

In SR3 you could do similar stuff, but at huge penalties. Non-invasive ("external") smartlinks took the form of special goggles with bulky cables and even then didn't provide the same level of benefit (-1 TN for external, -2 TN for internal, which was a relatively huge advantage). Vision enhancement could be accomplished with goggles or binoculars, but they were bulky and obvious and had to be put on and taken off. Recording images and sounds required extra equipment, and required links to storage and transmission media in order to get the full benefit. Also these objects were generally limited to a handful of operating modes, and you couldn't toggle them freely like you could with the DNI of cyberware.

I think for SR5 they should really have reestablished the barrier between internal cyberware and external gear. Then they should have killed the skinlink for mass data transfer (say that transferring large amounts of information over long patches of skin is too easily disrupted, too much resistance, etc, and force the hookups to be wireless that way). Internal cyberware costs Essence and should be relatively free from interference, generally not obvious (unless intentionally made obvious or spotted by a millimeter wave scanner), and fast. External gear should require some transmission sites (eyes and ears could be routed through a Google Glass type headset and wirelessly connected to your commlink which serves as a data processor and storage medium, smartlinks would have to wirelessly connect through your commlink to those devices, etc), and be vulnerable to hacking.

So then you could have your physical adept with his smartlinked contact lenses and noise filter earbuds hooked through his glasses, but he'd be hackable. Meanwhile the guy who spends Essence and large amounts of cash could have his eyes and ears replaced and a nerve-induction data line to a smartlink skinpad, and not be hackable.

And then the internal cyberware should provide better results than the external stuff (in SR5 lingo, +1 accuracy +1 die for external, +2 accuracy +2 dice for internal?), in addition to being more secure. They could easily make it so there could be literally no debate over why someone would buy the internal cyberware rather than the external gadgets.

But if they're following the SR4 trend, then it's backwards. There are presumably large benefits to not getting the full replacement, since for example contacts are cheap, easy, noninvasive, and hey, if you get hacked you can always pluck them out.

All in all, most of the wireless non-cyberware technology out of SR4 and later is too good for the game and needed to be scaled back. Following the trend, I'd expect to see 'trode-induced reflex enhancers that cost 0 Essence and mimicked Wired Reflexes. Or spray-on peel-off dermal plating.

Also, hackers have their thumbs surgically amputated when they get their cyberdecks, so they can't buy a handgun.

It seems like, in part, the answer to the necessity of Matrix Aware cybernetic augmentation has to be Big Data™.

Big Data is a silly buzz word in a lot of respects, but the underlying technology and applications of big data are not insignificant. Today, decades and decades prior to SR 5th Edition, Big Data is getting good at predicting what you're thinking before you've realized you're thinking it.

It knows your favorite play lists, it knows the things you regularly order for your home, it knows how frequently you go to the gym, it remembers the childhood phone numbers that you have long forgotten. It can tell when your kids are home by the things you're streaming, and it can tell when you're a bachelor for the weekend because of the all the sports you consume. In ten years, it can probably remind you of an old ex you had, then talk you into buying her flowers after opening a new American Express card.

And Big Data is getting better at making you think you're a special snowflake while it sorts you into your appropriate prepackaged behavior profile.

Fifth edition has extrapolated, in some respects, Big Data out to levels that our current grasp of technology can't fully appreciate. Yes, the change is fundamental. But Technology changes things (and itself changes) fundamentally.

I'm not going to defend that part of this implementation is gimmicky. And as the type of player whose frequently driving a Samurai, I don't necessarily relish another part of Shadowrun that gives a nod to the superiority of Magic. But hyperbole filled remarks like "There is literally no reason for X, Y, and Z!!!" is silly. On multiple fronts.

It is not unimaginable that the scope of data and efficient decision matrix processing power sixty years in the future is like nothing you've personally encountered, and can completely comprehend.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Well, apparently it was possible to run without your wired reflexes offline just before Dec 31 2075 ... and one day all the cozy reaction enhancers stopped working. While being offline. In your spinal cord. Consisting of superconducting material.

SYL

That said, they should have kept data transfer, storage, and processing limitations in the game as a balancing agent. One of the problems inherent in your Big Data is that a huge component is metadata (that is, data about data). While your Excel spreadsheet or Access database might only contain a few hundred kilobytes of actual legible text, the metadata part tells you all the important stuff -- what's cross-referenced how and where, what meaningful information can be determined from this bit and that bit and this other bit all together, and so on. Storing a million useful facts about 100 pieces of data. Which is part of why databases get huge and hard to process in real life.

SR used to recognize that as Megapulses, which were a creative way of recording the general ratio of metadata-to-data, efficiency of storage compression to available storage, and the bulk of processing power, without getting into the fine details of how many sectors your cyberdeck hard drive has, or how many gigahertz your processor runs at. This week, since those numbers would be changing constantly. Megapulses could be defined at the industry-average level, and software/hardware upgrades could be tacitly assumed to keep pace.

With that sort of mindset, then you could write in a host of benefits and limitations to keep things in check. Sorry, your commlink can only handle 50 megapulses at one time, so you can't have all of your equipment on at once or everything's going to get throttled back to compensate. Or you're able to overclock your smartlink since it's the only operation running right now. That sort of thing.

'There is literally no reason' is the more reasonable argument.

Extrapolating Big Data, along with the existence of GOD as it has been explained, means that shadowrunning is impossible. Since 4e decided years ago to ignore the actual cost and limitations of processing data, assuming a surveillance state and Big Data levels of correlation of data, along with every set of cybereyes on the planet being hackable, means that the people in power (the AAA megacorps that make up GOD's backers) can real-time cross reference all known data about anyone.

That means no more anonymity, no more plausible deniability.

In short, no more shadowrunners.

Oh, btw, can some of the SR5 Origin owner confirm or deny, that you need a wireless enabled mini grenade and a wireless enabled grenade launcher to detonate the grenade in the same action? Which previously was simply an airburst link and a set amount of time after launch? Just found that rumor.

SYL

I think that we miss an information from SR5 rules about "matrix bonus":

Does your commlink is still a gate between the matrix and your PAN and all your equipements (including some cyberwares) are slaved to it or not ?

If yes, perhaps you receive "matrix bonus" for devices slaved to your commlink and no bonus for isolated gears.
But now, a hacker can hack your commlink and then corrupt (or switch off) your slaved gears.

For the exemple of the chemsuit, it is slaved to your commlink and now received data from your teammates or a scouting drone with a chemical detector and then it could be closed faster.

For the wired reflexes and reaction enhancer, they need to exchange data to add their bonus, so they are both linked to your commlink.

Indeed, it's more a question of "network bonus" than "matrix bonus".

if the answer is no... "network bonus" could be an house rule which give more senses.

And another round: what happens if you are in a desert? Or in a building with wifi inhabitating walls (like every research facility, corp HQ, black site ops etc). Online is then ... off? And with that your entire equipment?



No, not really. One of the points is that is seems very strange that this amount of data MUST be forced over third party items/networks/matrix and not simply transmitted via cable, skinlink or DNI.

SYL

They make no rules comment on how a piece of wireless-bonus-capable gear might access the Matrix, just that the gear needs a Matrix connection to get the bonus.



-k

Lots of things changed on that day. In my view, the year moving forward is to keep the game world sufficiently in the future. Rules can change.

I'm still open minded and cautiously optimistic, and yes, I can feel that there are changes that I disagree with. Just about every long-running fiction I can think of is full of instances where I can't believe they actually had certain things happen. Star Wars, Star Trek, Superman, Shadowrun, they all have things I don't like in them.

Which just says to me that even the devs admit there's no good way to explain it other than 'we shoehorned this mechanic in'.

Separate discussion (Though certainly one worth having): Big Data in the context of Shadowrunners, Signal, and Noise. Short Answer: No. Longer Answer: Well, yes. Sort of.

This discussion: Justification for matrix aware cybernetic augmentation functioning above and beyond matrix unaware augmentation.

Answer: Matrix aware augmentation is SmartWare. Matrix ignorant augmentation is DumbWare. Done.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Cool idea, if it was supported by the rules, rather than removing basic function of dumbware and putting it behind the 'must be this dumb to ride' paywall of opening yourself up to hackers.

As I said, most of the wireless bonuses give zero in-universe justification for their existance.

Just a general "expose your ass for this nifty expose-your-ass bonus".



-k

So, is the "workaround" with "i use my commlink as minor matrix and such reduce everything to signal 0" forbidden by the rules or allowed (by not being forbidden).

SYL

And that's what really kills me. It's a major turn-off to the game in general. Shadowrun is a game universe that requires solid internal justifications, because the gameplay specifically relies on exploiting the reality of the game universe to your advantage.

In SR5 you are either connected to the matrix, or not at all. So having wireless, and getting the bonus, means you are connecting to the matrix. (Your commlink, PAN, and freidnly Decker/TM are what can protect you, but you are on the Grid)

There is no separation between devices other than distance and noise.

So the Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers must be devices available on the matrix via "wireless" if they are to interact at all.

I'm sure there will be an expensive option costing essence and nuyen to directly link the two piece, or perhaps a Move By Wire system that incorporates both bonuses in a later release.

Whether you like this model of the Matrix is up to you, but that's how it works in SR5.

What onboard scanner? This is not about the chemsuit autonomously deciding to seal up, this is about the user deciding to seal his suit which suddenly requires less user intervention because the suit can post a twitter update about it.

This has probably been said but I don't want to bother reading all the posts. The problem with hacking in combat was never that it couldn't be done -- it was the fact that it couldn't be done FAST enough.

Breaking encryption was measured in Combat TURNS in a version of the rules where at most it took the Street Sam and Mage 1 PASS to down an enemy. If you couldn't decrypt in 3 seconds flat then you were better off shooting most of the time. Then Unhinged went made it 24 hours to decrypt.

Previously a decker could down encryption in 1 pass if his programs were good enough (either attack or decrypt). This meant that an edition that was designed from the ground up was harder to hack people's guns during combat than an edition where the IDEA of doing such a thing hadn't even been thought yet. Google wasn't really a thing when Matrix was written. Blackberry's and tablets were the realm of science fiction. And the rules still supported AR hacking better than SR4.

Fucking fail.

Your personal PAN is not The Matrix, any more than your home wifi router is in itself The Internet.

The whole point of the new rules is to get people to expose themselves to outside hacks. It was just done in a hamfisted inelegant clumsy fashion.




-k

I'll elaborate:

Most of the meat of Shadowrun is an engineering problem. You take a problem and approach it with a bucket of tools, formulating a plan to solve the problem efficiently with your bucket of tools, and trying not to get shot too much in the process.

Now, saying "reinvert the tachyon field emitters and align the phase emitters" works great on TV in Star Trek, because the technobabble doesn't have to make any sense to the viewer. The viewer doesn't have to go through the process of how that particular string of actions actually affects anything, or how it differs from "polarize the dampening coils and decouple the main plasma shunt."

But Shadowrun is a game of fine details. You can gloss over the finest points of the technology, since we can only imagine that certain things work because Science!, but knowing the comparative benefits of a skinlink versus a wireless link versus a DNI link versus a point-to-point laser link versus a satellite link is actually a big deal. There are specific processes, bonuses, gear, and potential problems that could all arise based on one fine detail like that. And a lot of the game is about coping with those sorts of differences. In short, you need to know to use the autopicker for the padlock and the maglock sequencer for the card reader, and that the ultrasonic detector can pick up your invisible mage.

I forgot to write something:
With my "network bonus" you should slave your chemsuit or wired reflexes to your commlink for the bonus but you can do that with skinlink, wire or wireless connection.
As your commlink use wireless communication to get a network with your teammates, a hacker can still hack your commlink and then switch off your slaved devices.

Indeed, I agree with you for a rule based on a generalisation of tactnet.