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Umidori
QUOTE (Kruger @ Jun 28 2013, 10:50 AM) *
Either way, there are two real problems. First and foremost was the design team's inability to maintain balance in the system. "Magic" continued to get better, and worse, started to slowly supplant the "Machine" of the game. Not a problem if this was some other kind of game, but when the Street Samurai are reduced to the level of the cannon fodder bad guys, the game is no longer Shadowrun. The second glaring issues is with Shadowrun's tech progression, in that it can't seem to decide whether it is going to follow a "believable" advancement (a lot of this is skewed by the last thirty years of rapid advancement), or whether to maintain a level of forced normalcy to keep the game world intact. Considering that it is all fantastech, there was never any need to make things slowly get outdated. Maybe cyberware just hits a wall where it's just not going to be able to get any better just because it is limited by human capacity. Maybe it uses components that never really get any cheaper. Fixed costs and margins will always keep certain products expensive. Cyberware implants aren't (or don't have to be like) consumer electronics such TVs. Either way, it would have been extremely simple to keep cyberware's performance as a constant. Though, this problem is almost definitely linked to the decision to continue making Magic bigger and better (somebody must have had a hard on for mages at some point, lol). The funny part is, since Magic is entirely make believe, curtailing its power was probably the easiest thing possible had some planning and foresight been used.

This got me thinking. If someone gave me the reins, I think I'd do something like the following.

1) A sudden negative spike in ambient mana. Over the course of a week, magic all across the globe starts dropping off significantly, then over the course of the next week it just plummets. The Awakened community is panicking, because no one knows what's going on and everyone's magic is failing. The Corporations are scrambling to protect themselves, because everyone at least dabbles in magical goods and most certainly relies upon magical defenses to protect a lot of their resources. The natural world is in violent upheaval with critters running wild, ley lines shifting, natural disasters rolling in one after another, and an inexplicable surge in plant growth resulting a creeping tide of green causing untold damage to human infrastructure. The Infected community is reeling and desperate from a sudden mass weakening of their powers, prompting record numbers of attacks on the ordinary population. All in all, things are crazy.

Another week rolls by and mana levels are still dropping, but the rate has mercifully slowed. Everyone holds their breath during a tense fourth, and final, week in which mana levels just sit unmoving, and then everything just snaps. The whole ordeal culminates in a massive rubber banding effect, with the ambient mana figuratively (and in a few places where the ley lines cross, literally) exploding, ushering in a couple months of record high mana levels, which slowly drop off again, but which still level out higher than they originally started.

Magic just had a growth spurt, and it shook some things up in the process. The door is opened for all sorts of interesting (and largely unpleasant) changes for the Sixth World, some at nearly fundamental levels.

The net effect? There's more magic in the world. Critters and the natural world are nastier than ever, as are the Infected. Awakened metahumans are finding that despite greater mana levels, they're having a harder time "using" mana. Hermetic schools theorize that a fundmental shift in mana has pushed it to a different "frequency" which metahumanity has a harder time "resonating" with. Shamanic communities intead argue that Nature is merely angry, and that the Earth and its powers are fighting back against the abuses of humanity. Whatever the case, overall, people are less able to control magic as they wish, despite it being stronger than ever.

Et cetera.

2) Technology gets a boost, but it comes at a price. Maybe some new material is designed which has revolutionary benefits, a la Plasteel, and it starts sweeping the tech field. Or maybe the recent shifts in the nature of magic have also resulted in unforseen consequences for technology, like new alchemical processes allowing for new factoring methods. Or maybe physics itself has been slightly altered along with magic, if that sort of thing would fly lorewise, I dunno.

Whatever the case, cyberware is now cheaper and has more benefits and options than ever before. The downside is that it also rots your soul more than ever before. Chrome can make you faster and fiercer than anything else out there - even magic - but it flies in the face of all that is natural. People might be readily accepting of lopping off limbs and replacing them with machines, but Nature isn't. This produces some interesting physical results, ranging from cyber-invoked "Critter Spooking", to magical resistance and spell backfiring, to bizarre medical developments wherein cybered patients respond normally to synthetic food and drugs, but allergically to natural ones.

There are also some less tangible effects floating around as well. Certain types of spirits have begun acting differently towards the cybered. Large numbers of Beast Spirits, Plant Spirits, and other "natural" spirits have begun reacting negatively, and even violently, toward those sporting 'ware, while substantial numbers of Spirits of Man, Task Spirits, and other spirits tied to "humanity" seem to be of the opposite persuasion, appreciating the boundless ingenuity and craftsmanship of humanity that they see cyberware as representing. And perhaps most unsettlingly, amongst the rest of the chaos that unfolded during the brief dip in mana levels, a strange breed of unknown spirits appeared and began attacking heavily cybered individuals. Cases ranged from simple harassment and astral "hallucinations", to full blown possession and even eventual madness. Attacks stopped suddenly when global mana levels recovered, but in many cases the effects lingered.

(Also, while I'm at it, maybe we could also have some advances in jarhead cybernetics, opening up the extreme end of the tech/magic dichotomy. Once you start down the unnatural road, where exactly do you expect to stop? Just how far are you willing to go, and just what price are you willing to pay for power? You can do such much more with a fully robotic body if you're willing to take that step, and it would offer some very interesting roleplay and gameplay challenges to make that option more readily available alongside traditional cyber.)

~Umi
Chance359
Cheaper than muscle aug and toners. You can get alpha Muscle replacements for less.
binarywraith
QUOTE (apple @ Jul 1 2013, 07:06 PM) *
Yeah ... why play a cybered characters in SR5?



25 years of SR are upon us and muscle replacement is still useless? Is that a kind of running gag?

SYL


It sure seems like it!
Chance359
I made a mistake, Betaware is now x 0.7 essence reduction and 1.5 cost multiplier.
Mäx
QUOTE (Chance359 @ Jul 2 2013, 01:43 AM) *
It looks like most ware costs about 3 times as much now.

Magic/decker-run it is.
Elfenlied
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 2 2013, 07:18 AM) *
Magic/decker-run it is.


Which, sadly, kinda fits the background of the setting. Those with real power, the movers and shakers, have always been from the Fantasy part of Shadowrun, not the Cyberpunk one. Immortal Elfs, Dragons and their like are all spellcasters and take a big dump on those relying on Chrome.
Mäx
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jul 2 2013, 02:30 PM) *
Those with real power, the movers and shakers, have always been from the Fantasy part of Shadowrun, not the Cyberpunk one.

There are a lot more mundanes at the top of megacorps then not.
Elfenlied
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 2 2013, 12:53 PM) *
There are a lot more mundanes at the top of megacorps then not.


Not denying that. But at the very top of the food chain in Shadowrun are Immortal Elves and Dragons, both of which I could gladly do without, since they really detract from any Cyberpunk feeling in the game.
Serbitar
True. AI should at least be on par.
Moirdryd
I'm not seeing the magic run/decker run thing, except of course the CyberHack!NERPS! Which is looking harder to achieve now we've had more details (and will still be getting hose ruled at my table. Idea nice, implementation weak etc). But otherwise I'm really not seeing it.

Maybe that's because I'm going from 3 to 5 having skipped 4.

But from my perspective in doing so this is how it looks.
The Resources A is half of what it was (475k vs 1m) but a lot of the Cyberware we've now seen costs for are something like 30-40% of what it cost in SR3 and sounds more essence friendly out the bag (or is around the same). Some of the Bio seems to cost more (muscle toner and aug) but is half it's base index cost (which, sure is essence now but hey). Also the improved grades cost ALOT less making the alpha ware something like 25% what it used to.

Magic on the other hand isn't doing anything New this Edition apart from the Limit (system wide) and bringing back(slowly) the division of the traditions thematically and systemically. Initiation sounds like its going to be a bit quicker and cheaper Karma wise, on the other hand you have to buy up magic seperately instead of just getting a new point when you initiate so that bit's more expensive overall. Background count has become a standard magic rule it sounds like instead of an optional additional and sustaining spells without a sustaining Foci carries a decent penalty. Pure combat magicians are now harder to achieve success with. (although I will be looking at the initiative boosting spell...)

Adepts still seem to be adepts and have always been the real challenge to Cybered characters in SR3 and I don't see it changing much in SR5. I liked the Way guidelines back in my BBB and MitS (and SotA) and they helped my players balance their characters thematically so to know Critias had a hand in there allays my worries entirely.

Mystic Adepts? Okay, as written these are kinda silly. I know they are bring erratta'd but I can see me breaking out MitS to Houserule these little buggers. That or I just won't allow Mysads (and no one has ever played on at my table anyway).

So between 3 vs 5 the actual differences are that Chrome has gotten easier to do (although with potentially more vulnerability raw) And magic is much the same (with cheaper Foci).

Ultimately I think it comes down to which ever someone thinks is the "cooler" or more fun concept for that particular campaign or stand alone session. I've been GMing Shadowrun for 12 years now. In that time I have run it for five (regular) player groups each with six regular players and the occasional extra or stand in here and there. There have been three long campaigns and five short campaigns and two single mission games. In that time I have seen: 3 Adepts, 3 Riggers, 1 Shaman, 3 Mages, 2 Cybered Snipers, 1 cyber ninja, 3 Deckers, 4 Skillwire multifunction multi SIN running "face" covert types, 1 Aspected Magician and 18 Street Samurai. Almost everyone knew the rules, had access to all the major splat books and knew the setting.
apple
I do not want a SR without IEs and dragons - it wouldnt´be SR anymore. But, yes, some "mundane" boosts would not be wrong.

SYL
Moirdryd
If such is your desire Elfenlied have you tried Cyberpunk 2020/2050(I think the reboot/newer version is)? Because there is no magic or dragons or elves in the game or setting. Trying to do away with them in Shadowrun is counter intuitive since they've been part of it all (Lofwyr certainly) since the first book and are what makes the setting unique in its genre.
Irion
QUOTE (apple @ Jul 2 2013, 12:26 PM) *
I do not want a SR without IEs and dragons - it wouldnt´be SR anymore. But, yes, some "mundane" boosts would not be wrong.

SYL

You can't have the one with the other.
The point is, with every generation there is a new generation of mundane but the elfs and dragons are still there...
Mäx
QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Jul 2 2013, 03:24 PM) *
Maybe that's because I'm going from 3 to 5 having skipped 4.

But from my perspective in doing so this is how it looks.
The Resources A is half of what it was (475k vs 1m) but a lot of the Cyberware we've now seen costs for are something like 30-40% of what it cost in SR3 and sounds more essence friendly out the bag (or is around the same). Some of the Bio seems to cost more (muscle toner and aug) but is half it's base index cost (which, sure is essence now but hey). Also the improved grades cost ALOT less making the alpha ware something like 25% what it used to.

Its definedly that your coming from SR3, for those making the jump from SR4 its a lot different:
Resources A is less then double what the max was in SR4*(250kvs450k), but in general ware prices where about tripled(in some cases less and in some more). Also lower of cyber/bio essence used to only count for 50%.
*And thats with out taking account qualities that can affect this, my SR4 combat face build used up 320K in chargen.
Elfenlied
QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Jul 2 2013, 01:27 PM) *
If such is your desire Elfenlied have you tried Cyberpunk 2020/2050(I think the reboot/newer version is)? Because there is no magic or dragons or elves in the game or setting. Trying to do away with them in Shadowrun is counter intuitive since they've been part of it all (Lofwyr certainly) since the first book and are what makes the setting unique in its genre.


I have taken a look at the 2020, but the system seemed really clunky to me, and fax as state-of-the-art data transfer medium seems even more wrong for me than decking. Also, it is a bit too lethal for my taste.

Personally, I've started to treat SR less like a Cyberpunk game and more like a Sci-Fi+Magic game. Helps me keep my sanity. Also, MagicRun is really fun if no one in the group wants to play cybered characters anyway.
Sendaz
QUOTE (Irion @ Jul 2 2013, 07:30 AM) *
You can't have the one with the other.
The point is, with every generation there is a new generation of mundane but the elfs and dragons are still there...

The Azzies and a few others are working on that last one. wink.gif

Ares is blending and bending magic & spirits to try and bring it to heel, granted I expect that to bite them in the arse, but that's another tale.

The Tech is always growing, bioware and nanite is still relatively in its infancy, but they both have the potential to grow into some mean mofo's.

Magic means either you are born to it or have to spend a ton of time developing those powers. Tech is the great equalizer because you do not have to devote the same level of training/resources to obtain comparable results and it can be mass produced, following the adage of quanity over quality, while again mages are born in a sporadic manner. Hell just because you are a mage does not guarantee any offspring will be and same for clones.

And you may want to look at he Cyperpunk 203X stuff for ideas on new technologies ranging from genetic engineering to crazy nanite stuff that you may want to introduce into your own game.
apple
I sure can have drongs and IEs in my game ... put perhaps not that all-powerful. wink.gif

SYL
Chance359
Also disliking how alpha wired reflexes: 2 is now out of reach at character gen, the +availability for getting alpha puts it at avail 16.
Sunshine
QUOTE (Chance359 @ Jul 2 2013, 03:41 PM) *
Also disliking how alpha wired reflexes: 2 is now out of reach at character gen, the +availability for getting alpha puts it at avail 16.

Which will be fixed by the splatbook with the Restricted Gear Quality, I hope.

I also hope that the 5th Ed Quality Mechanic is transparent enough to "reverse engineer" some of the 4th Edition Options that are already out there.
Looking at the german sr4a book at 405 pages and having read that the english 5th basic book is about 480 pages they must have run out of space to figure all that "splatbook goodness" in.
Moirdryd
Now that DOES sting Chance359. I can see me allowing some wiggle room there.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Chance359 @ Jul 2 2013, 03:41 PM) *
Also disliking how alpha wired reflexes: 2 is now out of reach at character gen, the +availability for getting alpha puts it at avail 16.

where'd you get the availability from?
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Jul 2 2013, 05:19 AM) *
True. AI should at least be on par.

CEO of Horizon?
hermit
QUOTE (Chance359 @ Jul 2 2013, 03:41 PM) *
Also disliking how alpha wired reflexes: 2 is now out of reach at character gen, the +availability for getting alpha puts it at avail 16.

*sigh*
Chance359
QUOTE
where'd you get the availability from?


Wired reflexes starts at 12R, +4 from making it alpha puts you at avail 16R.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Chance359 @ Jul 2 2013, 06:32 PM) *
Wired reflexes starts at 12R, +4 from making it alpha puts you at avail 16R.

Ah, so straight SR4 Numbers then?
And just the restricted gear edge is missing from the core book?
cndblank
QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Jul 2 2013, 08:01 AM) *
Now that DOES sting Chance359. I can see me allowing some wiggle room there.



Agreed.

I'll work with my players on that.

I felt that cyberware should be more expensive (double would be good.), but not that expensive (at triple the price is nearly back to 3rd edition prices).

Personally I liked Street Samurai, not carrying a half million nuyen worth of cyberware.
Once again we are at the point where why is the Sammy on the battlefield if he can afford to layout a half million for his cyber and bioware?

Also the lower prices in 4th made it easier to justify the opposition having some cyberware.
And you had less to worthy about player' looting the battlefield.

There were some very good reasons that the price of cyberware came down in 4th. Now it is nearly back to the original price.


I can see that this is balanced out some what by the reduction in price for upgraded cyberware.

Before I saw just how much more cyberware was costing, I figured one advantage to being cybered was that you could afford to customize your cyber load out for a particular missing (say picking up Gills and webbed feet if heading to the South Pacific), but not at these prices.

And the allowing non enhanced combatants to get get two pass at least half the time will help the GM in providing opposition for the players.
Course that does nothing to encourage someone to play a cybered character.

But we are back to exactly the same place as always in Shadowrun where Decker and Samurai are totally desperate for cred so they can upgrade and stay State of the Art while the Technomancers, Mages, and Adepts are rolling in the cred.

In my game, the Gunslinger Adept is riding in a tricked out Ranger Rover and has cred to burn (mostly on APDS ammo - it is hard to keep it out of his hands when he invests in the contacts and is willing to put down a grand for six rounds). The Street Sammie has an old bike.

With the new things for the Awaken and Technomancers to spend cred on, i was hoping that would balance out, but I see I'm going to be disappointed since the increased costs for the cybered individuals just means more cred all around.

I like decks being a real investment so you don't have script kiddes out there who spent a couple of grand, but we have the same problems for the Decker as the Street Samurai (and a deck is a lot easier to loot then a set of Wired II).

So far the only reason i can see to play a cybered individual is background count, maybe skill wires, and in some places a cyber virgin will standout like a sore thumb.

Maybe Cyberlimbs will really kick hoop.

When I first looked at SR5, I was really glad that the designers of 5th are totally not afraid to take risks and make changes, but I didn't think it through.
In my mind SR5 alternative title will be Too Much of a Good Thing.
Moirdryd
Cndblank. the price margin SR3-5 is still massively lower. As I said a few posts ago you get 47.5% the cash in slot A in 5th compared to 3rd, but the prices are 30-40% of what they cost in 3rd and Alpha ware comes in at around 25% what it used to cost in 3rd. That's a lot more cyber option from that edition to this, it's only the jump from 4-5 that might be feeling a pinch.

It's just the availability ratings that seem off for starting out.
Cochise
QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Jul 2 2013, 11:16 PM) *
It's just the availability ratings that seem off for starting out.


And the fact that instead of a combined cost of 8 (16) points you now can only have 6 (12) points of cyber and bio. Delta being cheaper won't change that. As a matter of fact, with cheaper and more availible deltaware an augmented character will his this hard limit earlier than before.
Moirdryd
That means nothing to me Cochise. For me it's Essence 6 with 3points of BioIndex before it starts effecting Essence. Never saw the SR4 Cyber-Bio cost rules. So that'll be entirely new.
Stahlseele
Since SR4, and in SR5, Bioware does not have it's own index of Essence+3 anymore, but it costs essence the same as cyberware does.
It just costs less essence than comparative cyber. More money though. Under SR4, you still tallied these two essence ammounts separately.
And the smaller one got halved. So if you had 4 points of Bioware-Essence-Loss and 3 Points of Cyberware Essence loss, you had used stuff worth 7 Points of essence all in all, but the smaller ammount, in this case the 3 Essence from Cyber got halved and so you ended up with exactly 5.5 Essence lost.
As of SR5, no more halving. just straight adding up cyber and bio essence.
Cochise
QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Jul 2 2013, 11:45 PM) *
That means nothing to me Cochise. For me it's Essence 6 with 3points of BioIndex before it starts effecting Essence. Never saw the SR4 Cyber-Bio cost rules. So that'll be entirely new.


Coming directly from SR3 it's even worse, because there the combined essence and bioindex that could be accumulated before automatically dying (unless cybermancy is involved) left even more room for implants before a sammy hit his hard cap of "you're not going any further". So despite your claim, this certainly will mean something for you. Not in the beginning, but most certainly during later progression.
Moirdryd
Perhaps, but the essence costs seem a lot lower in SR5 than they were in 3rd anyway and the bio stuff is 50% lower. So the final math based on that would be nearly 6 pts of Essence in 5th being much the same as what nearly 6 + 3 was for 3rd.

Of course until I see all the numbers I don't know how blanket that is.
apple
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 2 2013, 05:53 PM) *
just straight adding up cyber and bio essence.


To be honest: I prefer this straight mechanism. However, I do not prefer the new base or essence costs. I certainly prefer the new grade modifier costs.

SYL
Stahlseele
QUOTE (apple @ Jul 3 2013, 12:03 AM) *
To be honest: I prefer this straight mechanism. However, I do not prefer the new base or essence costs. I certainly prefer the new grade modifier costs.

SYL

even if it means that using just my example up there, you lose out on at least 1,01 Points of Essence you can use?
cndblank
QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Jul 2 2013, 03:16 PM) *
Cndblank. the price margin SR3-5 is still massively lower. As I said a few posts ago you get 47.5% the cash in slot A in 5th compared to 3rd, but the prices are 30-40% of what they cost in 3rd and Alpha ware comes in at around 25% what it used to cost in 3rd. That's a lot more cyber option from that edition to this, it's only the jump from 4-5 that might be feeling a pinch.

It's just the availability ratings that seem off for starting out.


Some good points.

I agree with getting rid of the Bio/Cyberware essence bonus but still not feeling the love for the non awakened in SR5.

Cheaper cyberware would have been one way to help balance it out.
Stahlseele
just curious but:
why are you all okay with the useable essence being lowered?
that's the one thing the mundanes need to shine to put in toys.
Moirdryd
Well, for me it's because is functionally higher than what I'm used to. 6+3 for Sr3 cyber and bio and with the average essence cost having halved for essence and bio my players can get the equivalent of what would have been 12 now. So it's a net gain of 3pts (ish).

The only way it benefits mundanes only would be to bring back the BioIndex which cased Magic Loss seperate to that of essence loss (until the bio went past 3pts and started chomping into essence).
apple
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 2 2013, 06:05 PM) *
even if it means that using just my example up there, you lose out on at least 1,01 Points of Essence you can use?


I am talking about the mechanism (1+1 = 2, not 1+1 = 1,5). I agree that the actual essence costs should be lowered, especially so that mundane characters can use some shiny combinations (I am well aware that this would mean that cybermages/adepts can use little more for their 1 or 2 essence points as well).

SYL
Stahlseele
@Moirdryd
Actually, it is only 6 Points of Essence now, no Bio-index or other Tricks at all.
If you go straight from 3rd to 5th, you lose out pretty big.

@apple
ah.
Moirdryd
That I understand Stahlseele. But the Essence cost of Cyber and Bioware has Halved(approx) since SR3 from the few numbers given. So in effect you lose 3 gain 6 if you're maxing out. Unless I'm reading something wrong (on seen a few examples).
Daedelus
QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Jul 2 2013, 04:39 PM) *
That I understand Stahlseele. But the Essence cost of Cyber and Bioware has Halved(approx) since SR3 from the few numbers given. So in effect you lose 3 gain 6 if you're maxing out. Unless I'm reading something wrong (on seen a few examples).

And if the Essence cost for Bio/Cyberware was cut by 25% from SR4 to SR5 then it is a net wash anyway. Can someone do the math and confirm the % decrease that this gear was reduced by?
Umidori
All I have are SR4 numbers, otherwise I'd hash it all out.

~Umi
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jul 3 2013, 01:04 AM) *
All I have are SR4 numbers, otherwise I'd hash it all out.

~Umi


Sure, hope this helps:

'it all' hashes out to '1cd74085899e54e4194efa29650b248654ee0396' (sha1)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Irion @ Jul 2 2013, 08:30 AM) *
You can't have the one with the other.
The point is, with every generation there is a new generation of mundane but the elfs and dragons are still there...


Sure but the immortal elves aren't an issue. It is the things that the players actually encounter that matter. The players and their adversaries/allies should be balanced whether mundane or magical, whether street sam, face, decker, mage or non-bizarre hybrid.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (apple @ Jul 2 2013, 07:19 PM) *
I am talking about the mechanism (1+1 = 2, not 1+1 = 1,5). I agree that the actual essence costs should be lowered, especially so that mundane characters can use some shiny combinations (I am well aware that this would mean that cybermages/adepts can use little more for their 1 or 2 essence points as well).

SYL


I wish they had made essence cost double for magically active folks. A dip for mages and adepts into cyber/bio gives them more bang for their buck than a mundane gets out of it. Sure mundanes can dive in but a mage should not get mor eout of 1 essence than a mundane and sadly they do since they can cherry pick between adept powers, or sustained spells and cyber/bio.
Umidori
QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 2 2013, 06:07 PM) *
Sure, hope this helps:

'it all' hashes out to '1cd74085899e54e4194efa29650b248654ee0396' (sha1)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

First I was like ಠ_ಠ

But then I was like rotfl.gif

~Umi
Chance359
Per SR4 core book p313, theres no increase in availability when you purchase alpha.


Also muscle replacement, augmentation, and toners all have an avail of rating x 5, so unless you're using cyberlimbs (which are avail rating x 4 for stat mods) you're capped at rating 2.
hermit
QUOTE
That I understand Stahlseele. But the Essence cost of Cyber and Bioware has Halved(approx) since SR3 from the few numbers given. So in effect you lose 3 gain 6 if you're maxing out. Unless I'm reading something wrong (on seen a few examples).

The decrease is not linear. For instance, VCRs [1-3] are at 1, 2 and 3 now, while Wired [1-3] still cost 2, 3, and 5.
Sendaz
QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 3 2013, 09:25 AM) *
, while Wired [1-3] still cost 2, 3, and 5.

*cough* wireless reflexes *cough*
Moirdryd
So I noticed on the other thread Hermit. I obviously misread someone's post somewhere before hand.
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