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kerbarian
There's a troll tank as one of the archetype builds, but the archetypes are never very optimized. Trolls are great at stopping bullets and punching things, so I decided to see how far I could go with that. Turns out... pretty far.

[ Spoiler ]

Pinky gets his name from a used cyberarm with a color that might not have been his first choice, but he's certainly not complaining about the results. In melee, he can hit with its spurs for 16P/-2. For ranged combat, he relies entirely on shuriken (at troll scale, think rotary saw blades) that are 14P/-1 and have a long range of 65 meters. Either way, he's rolling 17 dice with an accuracy of 10.

On defense, he has 13 dice to avoid attacks (Rea+Int), 35 armor (!), and 7 body, along with damage compensators 4. Naturally he's not as tough vs. magic, but he does the best he can with high willpower and Magic Resistance 4. One of the odd findings here is that used cyberhands/feet are apparently the most efficient way to stack armor.

Pinky's initiative will only get him two passes, but if it's ever important he can spend Edge (of which he has plenty) on Blitz to get 3-4 passes. An Edge of 6 also makes his attacks ridiculous with Push the Limit or lets him reroll his mountain of damage resistance dice with Second Chance.

Edit: moved a couple points from body to willpower and shuffled Pinky's gear around a bit for better defenses against non-bullet threats (chemical protection, air tank, better commlink).
Chance359
Does seem like used cyber is the way to go, if only for the lower availability.
FuelDrop
Well, I can't say much until my book arrives and I get to take a look at the new rules. HOWEVER...
I did hear that armor is supposed to be stronger in 5th, but I also heard rumors of troll tanks with soak pools of 40+ from chargen in 4th. Which bit of my intel was wrong?
Stahlseele
None
Draco18s
Just as an offhand comment:
Willpower dice are just as expensive as Magic Resistance. At least, they were in SR4 (did the quality get cheaper, or did you just run out of stat points)?
Nath
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 16 2013, 03:20 PM) *
Just as an offhand comment:
Willpower dice are just as expensive as Magic Resistance. At least, they were in SR4 (did the quality get cheaper, or did you just run out of stat points)?
They were not in SR4. Magic Resistance was 5 BP/10 karma per point, while the Willpower attribute was 10 BP/10-15-20-25-30 karma (or 6-9-12-15-18 karma with the original x3 multiplier).
Draco18s
QUOTE (Nath @ Jul 16 2013, 09:42 AM) *
They were not in SR4. Magic Resistance was 5 BP/10 karma per point, while the Willpower attribute was 10 BP/10-15-20-25-30 karma (or 6-9-12-15-18 karma with the original x3 multiplier).


And that shows you how long its been since I've played SR4...
kerbarian
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 16 2013, 05:20 AM) *
Just as an offhand comment:
Willpower dice are just as expensive as Magic Resistance. At least, they were in SR4 (did the quality get cheaper, or did you just run out of stat points)?

Ran out of attribute points. With the priority system, you can't easily shift points between attributes and qualities. Magic resistance is effectively cheaper anyway, though -- 6 karma per point.

It might make for a more balanced defense to shift a couple points from Body to Willpower...
X-Kalibur
So you basically just made Metal Man from Mega Man 2?
kerbarian
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Jul 16 2013, 04:11 AM) *
Well, I can't say much until my book arrives and I get to take a look at the new rules. HOWEVER...
I did hear that armor is supposed to be stronger in 5th, but I also heard rumors of troll tanks with soak pools of 40+ from chargen in 4th. Which bit of my intel was wrong?

I think both of those are true. You could get 35 armor in SR4 (plus lots of body dice), but it took every trick from the splat books and meant sacrificing most other aspects of your character. In SR5 you can get 35 armor from the basic book and still spend a respectable amount on other areas.

It's possible to go a bit higher than Pinky on defense in SR5 -- e.g. dermal plating, (used) titanium bone lacing -- but then he'd be pure defense, and why waste your bullets on a guy if he isn't a threat?
ElFenrir
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jul 16 2013, 02:34 PM) *
So you basically just made Metal Man from Mega Man 2?


This dude should totally run around in a maroon Urban Explorer Jumpsuit with the speakers built in playing this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IibI9U81V_M
Psikerlord
hmm cyberlimbs are going to break tge game again (just like 4e). better work out some houserules. cant believe armour stacking is sooooo easy. i dont think you can add cyberhands to cyberarms though, they come with the arms already.

actually this is an easy houserule fix - consistent with 4e rules - armour enhancement only available for full limbs, torso and skull. ie no .25 essence armour boosts.
binarywraith
QUOTE (Psikerlord @ Jul 16 2013, 04:17 PM) *
hmm cyberlimbs are going to break tge game again (just like 4e). better work out some houserules. cant believe armour stacking is sooooo easy. i dont think you can add cyberhands to cyberarms though, they come with the arms already.


Cyberhand's on the other arm, I assume. smile.gif


That said, yeah, the armor stacking from cyberlimbs is going to get nerfed. It's in the 'Unintended consequences' level of good if you twink it by taking as many partial cyberlimbs as possible.
Psikerlord
yeah its the partial limb stacking that is OP. just need to fix that and all's well.
binarywraith
QUOTE (Psikerlord @ Jul 16 2013, 04:36 PM) *
yeah its the partial limb stacking that is OP. just need to fix that and all's well.


Actually, I think my preferred fix would be to simply double the capacity cost of armor from Rating to 2xRating.
Psikerlord
edit -ah poop u already quoted me below, haha
binarywraith
QUOTE (Psikerlord @ Jul 16 2013, 04:52 PM) *
that would also fix it. actually i think all enhancements should probably be 2 capacity, not just armour, but that might be too much. or perhaps engancements should add to availability of the overall limb, instead of having separate availability


The other enhancements aren't as useful, though, given the rules that state cyberlimb strength/agility enhancements are cut down based on the number of applicable limbs to a test. Means that to reliably apply the enhancements, you have to match them across all of your limbs, which gets expensive fast.
Psikerlord
well shooting with agility 9 is pretty good for 1handed guns? anyways the armour rules need a tweak, i think my preference is similar to 4e - no armour for less than full limbs. that way if you want that armour, you pay the essence price.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jul 16 2013, 02:41 PM) *
Actually, I think my preferred fix would be to simply double the capacity cost of armor from Rating to 2xRating.


That or maybe limit how much armor it can hold. 0 for hands/feet, 1 for lower arm/leg, 3 for full limb.
Psikerlord
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jul 16 2013, 11:04 PM) *
That or maybe limit how much armor it can hold. 0 for hands/feet, 1 for lower arm/leg, 3 for full limb.

sounds good too
CanRay
Makes me think of this...
RelentlessImp
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 16 2013, 11:56 PM) *


I thought that was an ork.
tsuyoshikentsu
What priorities were used here?
phlapjack77
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jul 17 2013, 07:04 AM) *
That or maybe limit how much armor it can hold. 0 for hands/feet, 1 for lower arm/leg, 3 for full limb.

I like this idea, but would maybe go 1/2/3 for armor. Seems easier to remember, and makes sense (to me).
Stahlseele
Why is the first thing that people always do to nerf cyber(limbs), when it is being awesome for a change?
phlapjack77
Was that aimed at the armor thing above? To me, it just seems like it makes sense that a cyberhand wouldn't be capable of as much armor as a full arm. I'd rather go for something that makes sense than for "awesome".
kerbarian
QUOTE (tsuyoshikentsu @ Jul 17 2013, 12:44 AM) *
What priorities were used here?

A: Metatype, B: Resources, C: Attributes, D: Skills, E: Magic/Resonance.

Note that 2 of the attribute points come from buying up Logic and Charisma with karma at the end. 1 karma was also converted to 2,000 nuyen.
Novocrane
Wasn't there an errata for fourth edition that halved the armour bonus for anything smaller than a full cyberlimb?
Psikerlord
there was some nerf, i forget exactly what it was.

binarywraith
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 17 2013, 03:19 AM) *
Why is the first thing that people always do to nerf cyber(limbs), when it is being awesome for a change?


Because these armor stacking rules are an obvious oversight, not an intended buff to cyberlimbs.

15 inherent armor (full conversion cyborg style with four limbs and a cybertorso) is already pretty out of whack with the armor values for the rest of the system, but allowing the same thing using just cyberhands and cyberfeet instead of full limbs is obviously borked.
CanRay
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 16 2013, 11:56 PM) *
QUOTE (RelentlessImp @ Jul 16 2013, 11:58 PM) *
I thought that was an ork.
Oni. Close enough. wink.gif
Stahlseele
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jul 17 2013, 04:29 PM) *
Because these armor stacking rules are an obvious oversight, not an intended buff to cyberlimbs.

15 inherent armor (full conversion cyborg style with four limbs and a cybertorso) is already pretty out of whack with the armor values for the rest of the system, but allowing the same thing using just cyberhands and cyberfeet instead of full limbs is obviously borked.

damage went up all over the place.
so did armor. why should it be different here?
armor is the one thing cyberlimbs are actually good for.
especially untill the book with more ware comes out.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 17 2013, 12:06 PM) *
damage went up all over the place.
so did armor. why should it be different here?
armor is the one thing cyberlimbs are actually good for.
especially untill the book with more ware comes out.


But for only nuyen.gif 100,000 you can, on a human, have a cyber arm with 9 str, 9 agi, 2 armor, a shock hand and a cyber spur. It's practically a steal..........
Stahlseele
Aside from that being at least 25% of your starting money and 16,6% of your maximum Essence.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 17 2013, 12:31 PM) *
Aside from that being 25% of your starting money and 16,6% of your maximum Essence.


Sorry, I was hoping the intended sarcasm would go through. Honestly cyberware in general all seems excessively expensive for the essence cost. I do feel the increase on bio prices was necessary, to hold back mages and adepts for a while. But the cyber jump seems too much.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jul 17 2013, 10:33 PM) *
Sorry, I was hoping the intended sarcasm would go through. Honestly cyberware in general all seems excessively expensive for the essence cost. I do feel the increase on bio prices was necessary, to hold back mages and adepts for a while. But the cyber jump seems too much.

ah, no, sorry, i did not catch that sarcasm <.<;,
And even if the money/essence cost would not be a problem:
due to no more limbs being available, you are still limited to doing this 4 times.
for a whopping 8 points of extra armor!
which translates to . . what? statistically 3 more hits in damage resistance against physical force?
Psikerlord
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jul 17 2013, 02:29 PM) *
Because these armor stacking rules are an obvious oversight, not an intended buff to cyberlimbs.

15 inherent armor (full conversion cyborg style with four limbs and a cybertorso) is already pretty out of whack with the armor values for the rest of the system, but allowing the same thing using just cyberhands and cyberfeet instead of full limbs is obviously borked.

agree. if someone takes only feet and hands, for only 1 essence total (less alpha etc) they get 12 armour. combine with armour jacket for 24 armour, 6 points more than security armour but completely concealable, and u still have 5 essence left. if that isnt OP, what is?

i have no probs with armour on full limbs, torso, head - these all cost significant essence (though frankly i do think its still a bit too good).

so far, i see two banned things for our SR5 campaign: 1) mystic adepts and 2) cyberlimb armour on partial limbs or hands/feet.
Stahlseele
security armor costs only a fraction of the nuyen and no essence at all.
so the cyber-version SHOULD be better due to cost/use balance.
Psikerlord
no, imo security armour is the benchmark indicator of where pc armour ought to top out, and going higher than that should have a very significant opportunity cost - in essence, social and concealability, for example. hands/feet armour is just way too cheap and concealable with no significant downside. its not a meaningful choice... its a no brainer. it is so good in fact that, thru a minmax perspective, all pcs should do it.
UmaroVI
Cyberdiabetes is pretty silly yup. At this point it's been around for two editions, so I guess that's how things are.
DoomFrog
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Jul 16 2013, 10:47 AM) *
This dude should totally run around in a maroon Urban Explorer Jumpsuit with the speakers built in playing this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IibI9U81V_M

QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 16 2013, 08:56 PM) *


I don't know. Reading the character description made me think of this scene.
binarywraith
QUOTE (Psikerlord @ Jul 17 2013, 04:19 PM) *
no, imo security armour is the benchmark indicator of where pc armour ought to top out, and going higher than that should have a very significant opportunity cost - in essence, social and concealability, for example. hands/feet armour is just way too cheap and concealable with no significant downside. its not a meaningful choice... its a no brainer. it is so good in fact that, thru a minmax perspective, all pcs should do it.


Exactly, especially once the inevitable (and inevitably stupid) return of FFBA in the gear books.
Sendaz
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jul 17 2013, 09:30 PM) *
Exactly, especially once the inevitable (and inevitably stupid) return of FFBA in the gear books.

I heard FFBA will come with built in Armorlink (armored version of skinlink) to boot to discourage you from wearing stuff over it. biggrin.gif

Comfortable & connectable
phlapjack77
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jul 18 2013, 10:30 AM) *
Exactly, especially once the inevitable (and inevitably stupid) return of FFBA in the gear books.
Amongst all other criticisms of FFBA, another thing I didn't like about it was that it overshadowed all other (cool) choices imo. Like the "Second Skin Line" from Arsenal - stuff was FFBA except 5x as expensive and it didn't stack.
Psikerlord
we've never allowed ffba in our games. for the same reasons as no armour on hands/feet: its so good everyone uses it.
Novocrane
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Jul 18 2013, 05:05 PM) *
Amongst all other criticisms of FFBA, another thing I didn't like about it was that it overshadowed all other (cool) choices imo. Like the "Second Skin Line" from Arsenal - stuff was FFBA except 5x as expensive and it didn't stack.

Tegmentum holowear was my favourite bodysuit.
binarywraith
QUOTE (Psikerlord @ Jul 18 2013, 03:49 AM) *
we've never allowed ffba in our games. for the same reasons as no armour on hands/feet: its so good everyone uses it.



Yeah, it always makes me wonder why every corper on the planet isn't wearing it, given that FFBA has been universally cheap and amazing for what it costs.
Draco18s
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jul 18 2013, 08:54 AM) *
Yeah, it always makes me wonder why every corper on the planet isn't wearing it, given that FFBA has been universally cheap and amazing for what it costs.


Because it makes you hot and sweaty and that just sucks.
(No really, that's what I've been told by people like TJ)
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 18 2013, 04:18 PM) *
Because it makes you hot and sweaty and that just sucks.
(No really, that's what I've been told by people like TJ)

That and as a Corper you usually don't have much reason to go somewhere where it's dangerous in the first place.
binarywraith
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 18 2013, 08:26 AM) *
That and as a Corper you usually don't have much reason to go somewhere where it's dangerous in the first place.


Of course not, but you'd think it'd be standard on anyone they're worried might be extracted/assassinated, and all of corpsec. Security armor costs, but even Bob The Newbie can be squeezed into FFBA sold on payroll deduction for less than a month's wages.
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