I remember that group I played with some time ago ... 3M 2F ... and the mage used the Orgy spell for the first time ...

Great GM skills and good RP involved we had a very good laugh ... well several.

The Saturday continued, we imbibed some Alcohol and some other "stuff" and had a real good time ... until one of the players brought up the idea of testing that Orgy stuff OC ...

I just say it was a very interesting weekend and we played together for 3 more years

Oh well *blush*

Things you don't want to hear in a Shadowrun bedroom.


Oohhhh... critical glitch

While they did change a lot in this edition, for the past 4 editions the power focus has only improved the dice pool for all magic linked skills and has never actually improved the magic attribute. I can't imagine they would actually allow for it to raise the limit on when spells hit physical drain. But I could be wrong.

To balance that Drain is now based on F instead of F/2?

Ummmm... 2nd and 3rd Edition Power Foci RAISED YOUR MAGIC RATING.

Did they? My brain must be addled again.

It wasn't as big a deal in SR3 (my edition) to have your magic go up. Spellcasting was limited by Force learned which cost Karma = force. Usually you'd see points being spent on more skills or else initiations rather than Force 12. Not as many nukes being thrown around back before the Magicrun editions.

Back on topic:

The Hail-Mary F12 is quite dangerous. Odds for at least 12P (which might kill you) are 18%;
14P (which will kill you, unless you are a troll) 7%
16P 2%

F10 looks much more survivable
12P - 8%
14P - 2%
16P - <0.5%

And should be about as deadly.

I really wish they had done something to weaken summoned spirits drastically in this edition. Their power and versatility are absurd. Hell make the default resist the spirit puts up x2 force with binding being x3 and great forms x4. But in SR4 mages routinely summoned up force 8-9 spirits and they were game changers. It seems no different in SR5. The most broken things about mages in SR4 was not changed at all, well even if it was an over correction at least they caught that direct damage spells were an issue and hey the change to control spells are fairly solid so that is nice. Too bad they didn't catch this amazingly obvious issue while playtesting.

Hey, in SR4A, we had a Mage that took 20s Drain from the F5 Spirit he summoned. Was quite entertaining. And it almost killed him.

They are indeed powerful, to be sure.

Not at our table they didn't. Force 5-6 was taking your Life into your own hands, and Binding Force 5+ was REALLY dangerous.

Funny, Mages never seem overpowered in our games, Not really (Powerful, yes, Overpowered, No). Of course, we encounter Background Count, Wards, and other magical constraints fairly commonly, so...

TJ Fallacy

Summoned? you mean bind?

Well, spirits right now are all the mage has left that is really outstanding powerwise. Spell damage below F6 is simply so uncompetitive it isn't even funny (and even F6 is worse than some Heavy Pistol loadouts). It'll take boatloads of Karma before they can even think about competiting with any rifles.

Sure, spells are still versatile, but the only real shortcut they get in comparison to other characters is mental manipulation, and that is only because most DMs tend to drastically lowball and curb the effects of social engineering? I mean, how often does the Face get to be Sophie Devereaux?

So yes, high Force spirits are powerful, but the mage kinda needs access to them. Below F6, a Heavy Pistol will circumvent the ItNW without special ammo, and with APDS being significantly easier to access, it will be a lot more common. A Predator with APDS can easily pierce F7. The moment real weapons enter the playing field, spirits aren't that special anymore.

Give it a shot in your game, and test it. I've found that spirits are not nearly as strong as they were in SR4, and neither are spells.



You had a F5 spirit use edge to resist summoning? Wow, that's probably the lowest Force by far where I've seen a spirit use edge.

Well, you get a roll to soak damage anyway. Edge it up and it won't be that bad. 10 points in drain attributes would be normal. And further maybe initation or whatever.
10 Points reduce drain by about 3 points. Now you can reroll for addition 2 hits or add edge for hits depending on your edge attribute.

Now, if you got somebody with a medkid you will be save up to 14P. The major Problem with high force spirits is, that they are able to solve a "run" if things go the players way. If you get knocked out summoning it just regroup...

It is not balanced if something will kill you in one out of 1000 cases. It might be balanced in the "real world" because nobody would risk it on the long run (espacially with the fact major injuries will have long term consequences). But Shadowrun ignores a lot of that and you heal quite fast.

thought medkits don't help with drain anymore?

@Sendaz
Stabalize, but I am not sure about that, I have to admit.

The problem with the high drain is that you are not only dead (or close to), but have no services as well.

Still, if the odds are either you are 100% dead (or your friends are) or you hail-mary a F12 then who wouldn't go with the odds.

So, I would expect that from non-professionals confronted with lethal force. No discussion here.

I am trying to look at the problem from the point of view of, say a military adviser writing a recommendation on how to proceed in such a situation. Realistically speaking however, if you know you are being attacked and it is forseeable that you will drastically lose, than in many cases even a F12 will not help much, because they do not have AoE. Also, we always ruled that spirits will likely stop their mission, when their master dies. (Is there an official rule for that?). So killing the summoner is the highest priority and probable much easier that getting rid of the spirit.

We have always run it that if your character is the kind of person who uses spirits as fodder, then they break free the first moment they get the chance (you go unconscious, there's a flaw in the services request, etc etc). If you've been treating those spirits more as equals, word gets around in the spirit world, and they're willing to finish up the tasks you assign, or even defend your unconscious form until their time runs out.

That said, if I were a shadowrunner mage, and I had options of X and dead, or Y and not dead, I'd always choose Y unless I had no choice. Players don't play that way as a rule. Instead, they go "Sure, I might die, but odds are I won't, so here goes!" If it turns out their character gets brainfried as a result of the spell or summoning, they can just go "Eh, oh well. New character." People don't get that choice in life. So to say that people would usually or always go with the "Might die" option is a little disingenuous.

But then again, no one said that Shadowrunners were stable, balanced, rational people.

Damn, Did it again.

No, I mean Summoned. Spirits resist Summoning at our table (if they are Force 4+), just as they resist Binding.
So Summoning a Force 5 Spirit is 10 Dice Exploding, Binding a Force 5 Spirit is 15 Dice Expoloding. Not many mages are willing to casually summon high force spirits when they spend Edge to resist. And totally within the rules, too. *shrug*

Indeed... Force 4+ at our table Elfenlied.

The Mages I play would NEVER (ever, ever, ever) attempt to summon a Force 12 God. That is just stupid.

If I could summon spirits I'd be eating drain daily. If my life depended on the strength of spirit I summoned I'd be eating a lot of drain every day for breakfast and diner. I actually think it is a roleplaying decision to summon powerful spirits. While playing it safe is also a valid roleplaying choice I don't think it is the logical one or the one most people would take.

Playing it safe is not the same as choosing to never take drain. My point was that I wouldn't risk lethal drain on a regular basis. That's playing magical russian roulette.

Ah allready two houserules in effect. We had no way of knowing this

Not sure where you're seeing house rules. The spirits are choosing to use edge. That's GM prerogative, not houserule. Force 5 + 5 edge, spent prior to roll = 10 dice exploding. Force 5 x2 for binding +5 edge = 15 dice exploding.

Maybe I'm missing something?

OK only one HR (ALLWAYS using Edge).
From the first description I got the impression Force x 2 + exploding dice where the base pool and Edge use would be possible in addition.


I mean per RAW Spirits dont allways resist binding...

Disclaimer: English is not my first language.

when your choices are to almost definitely be killed by approaching corp security, or to take the chance of being killed by high amounts of drain, i expect the decision-making process gets a little more fuzzy...

Well, per Raw they also do not not always use edge to resist binding or summoning. He is right it is ok by RAW, due to the wording of the section. Where you draw the line is up to the group. Be it force 4 or force 5, does not matter...Basically everytime you summon something which the group considers "out" the GM can make the spirit resist with edge.

@xsansara

Well, thats trying to weasle out of it, in my book. The point is, the risk of death or severe lasting injurie is limited, very much limited. If you get a medic by your side it is even more limited.
It only starts getting tough if you would not play with edge. And to keep it in context, I would add that you may not need to go Force 12, Force 10 is already above the avarage sam out of chargen up to +100 Karma.

I sure am glad that spirits using edge to resist summoning/binding is gone now.

Oh, I agree there Jaid. However, the argument being laid out is that mages should always overcast because there's only a chance they'll die, and that's just plain silly. If you're in a life or death situation, gambling on the option that might get you out is always better. But for those day-to-day things, I'm pretty sure anyone that isn't insane is just going to summon average strength spirits.

Unless you REALLY need that high Force Water Elemental to clean out the fridge, you know the one, with the growing and glowing stuff inside it.

You need a nuclear spirit for that. Only way to sterilize it.

But I already have that inside my 'broken' microwave.

One complex action and the food is ready, even from frozen.

Just needs the occasional rebinding by the crazy Day-Glo shaman from across the swamp, but considering he takes Stuffers in trade it's not so bad.

Flamethrowers and airlocks, chummer.

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/711082/AMV_Cow...g_in_the_Fridge

I'd still use it for magicians who abuse spirits.

What constitutes abuse in your book? Regular combat usage? Sexual intercourse?

If an inordinate amount of table time is spent with the summoning and resummoning of spirits, I consider it abusive.

Made all the more entertaining, since they are not HOUSERULES. They are Normal usage of Edge.
Had this argument more than once. Edge use IS CANON.

Why would it be. Spirits still have Edge, it is just that the player does not have access to it any longer.

Well, it is always reasonable to summon only at the force you need. You will have the spirit around longer and it is better to be slaped by a 100 pound girl, than to big kicked by a mule.


@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
All you say is true, but I have to admit only a very few people rule that strict...True, those guys should then not complain of anything going out of hand. If you do not enforce the rules you should not cry about the rules falling short.

The part about spirits using edge to resist summoning/binding is gone now, and it specificially states that spirits do not spend edge unless their summoner wills it so. And even then, their edge attribute got nerfed hard.

to be fair, that's not entirely clear.

their stat blocks have edge. and then there's a very explicit statement that they either don't have it, or never use it. not just "never use it on behalf of the summoner", either.

You really don't need much concealment to be able to hide in a roof corner or something. Even more if the spirit can just pick you up, add concealment and then add movement.

Its more risk going unconscious though. With reagents or just a power focus a force 9 spirit isn't lethal drain. I'd also add that I think even considering max drain is out of character. Mages probably summon spirits on a 12 hour cycle and in reality not game dice flukes never encounter way outside the standard deviation drain results so you probably never think, geeze this might kill me. Now in 5e without out magic first aid of pure awesome sauce curing all drain, I'd see people keeping it in the stun track more but its not hard to get WTF powerful spirits while remaining in the stun track with a mage out of char gen.

And now don't get me wrong mage on his daily routine probably stops at forcr 4-5, but mage prepping for a run against tight security probably goes force 8-9. Force 8 can actually tank those pesky assault rifle wielding security guards, force 5 not so much. I'm gonna summon that force 8 up at home with friends around in case something goes wrong instead of waiting for something going wrong and trying to wing it there. Its your insurance policy, take a small risk to avoid potential far greater risks.

That is not a house rule as it is well within the rules as written to do so in 4e. It is more of a ground rule. Your perception of mafia goons will create ground rules on how they will react to a players attempt to intimidate them, its not a house rule just an opinion on how you think mafia goons act. TJ sees spirits as sentient beings who logically don't want to be summoned to be someones play thing and once they get a bit of power behind them resist with all they got(edge)

Ah yes the Godzilla threshold.

As this is an SR5 discussion, what's RAW in SR4 doesn't apply.


Damnit, disclaimer that shit!

After going there to get the link I almost made myself late for work.