With only a few exceptions, the only gun my gun bunnies have ever needed was a pistol. Usually an Ares Predator. Automatic pistols aren't necessary.

But anyway, the answer to your question is that, everything else being equal, spells need to do more damage to offset the risk of drain. Although there are ways to twist the system for better results, for the most part combat spells (direct and indirect) don't produce the damage output to make them viable combat options. You're frequently better off shooting someone.

Where spells are more useful is doing what guns can't. For example, area effect, elemental effects, and the ability to ignore armor are cases where spells have an advantage. What that means is guns are better for straight-up damage, but spells are more versatile and are better in corner cases. They have different roles. That's what makes them "equal"-- they're equal in utility, not DPS.

It was technically possible in SR1 and 2. The skill web led to all kinds of silliness.

Do don´t pay karma for your your weapons, your armor, your attributes that cannot be raised by cyber, you don´t have to deal with drain (which is our ammo), with background-count, and so forth, and forth, and forth. So i would say that the sides are equal. The mage CAN be the swiss-army-knife of the team, i agree he has a lot of advantages but you pay for them and it comes also with massive drawbacks. The sam has his part in the team as every other class has and i haven´t seen any class outshining another if you play right.

I have. The adept in SR5 can outshine the sammies at everything they could possibly do. They're simply better in just about every objective measurement, and have a bundle of non-objectively-measurable advantages as well.

I don't think drain values are the only explanation, though those certainly played a part.
There's also the fact that direct combat spells are a lot less iconic, i can certainly understand an incentive to give indirects more use than the odd anti-vehicle application.

Since for a lot of players the only incentive that really works is the nerfbat...

Ok, than is THIS the new problem and we can agree that mages are over-nerfed and everything was fine before except that the drain for direct spells was too low (which i absolutely agree to)?


Can you point that out a bit more detailed or transfer me to a topic that might discuss this problem at the moment? Is it just a long-term problem (means at SOME point the Adept outshines the sam or is it already a character-creation-level-problem?

Sorry for the massive use of the word "problem". ^^

Overnerfed? I'd say without reagents they'd be nerfed just right. With reagents? Still quite OP.

Please don´t start this dicussion again. We just came to a spot where we agreed that we have different point of views. ^^

I'll help you out.

Adepts and mages are fine.

It's Mystic Adepts that have the problem.

Build an adept. Doesn't matter how.

Now replace "adept" with "mystic adept." Lose nothing, gain a fuckton of other abilities. Same priority, same karma costs, same abilities with the same dice pools and same limits. But now you have spellcasting.

Ah, ok. Of this problem i was aware. But with common Adepts everything is fine? ^^

Less Iconic for whom? Magic Missile is THE Iconic Direct Spell...

Reagents are just stupid, in my opinion... *shrug*

Except that ti is NOT the same SKills and Abilities. Since you have an Adept that just changes over to Mystic Adept, his spellcasting abilities are completely nonexistant. Also, his Adept abilities are ALSO non-existant unless you spend the Karma to purchase them back (as a Mystic Adept you do not start with them by default). So No... You DO lose a lot from a pure Adept with just a replacement. However, if designed with the Abilities of a Mystic Adept in mind, then yes, they are the default archetype. They are an Adept+, or a Magician+ depending upon your viewpoint, to be sure.

Thank you for proving my point. Yes, they lose in a minor way by having skill ratings a point lower in some areas, but in general they are Better than being pure mage or pure adept.

You are welcome... They are broken, is what they are.

In a long-term-point-of-view every awakened char. is broken because the theoretical limit oif development is non-existent, but the REALITY shows us, that it comes with the price of being not-so-good at the start and this is what equals them out compared to mundane ones.

Sadly, they are only inequal at start if you design them that way. You CAN make a starting Adept that is better than a Street Sam, depending upon your design goals of both. Same goes with a Magician vs. Street Sam. Yes, the Awakened will have some drawbacks the Mundane's do not ever deal with, but that is often beside the point, if you actually plan for those situations, which you CAN do, especially since the most common drawback (Background Count) is moving from a detriment to a simple Dice Penalty in SR5.

I haven´t read about the changes in BC in SR5 up to now. If it really is only a dice-pool-penalty anymore, i agree that the balance is switching the wrong way. BC was a good way to control awakened chars and made the Sam THE reliable force to save your ass. If this barrier falls...it would make Sams obsolete which is bad.

Actually as a dice pool penalty BC got more usable because it wasn't "Oh you lose X points of adept powers, X points of magic/force, spells get reduced by X amount, and you take X amount more drain, and you lose X dice, and...unless the BC is the same kind as your casting, in which case you gain those benefits, and..."

SR4 background count more than rating 2 was devastating to an awakened character, but should have been all over the place (cough, large city, cough). So they ended up being unused except for rare situations.

While they're not as much of a hindrance any more, they are FAR more usable mechanically.

We use Background Count a LOT in SR4A. It is very usable... Now, it is only a nuissance, at best, and not even that when planned for.

I've had it come up twice in games I've played, ever.

Once as Mana Static (cast at the PCs) and once as Astral Hazing (on a PC; who we actually hurled at a low-force spirit on one occasion).

And once again the MAIN-RULE of SR needs to be mentioned: a balanced game stays and falls with the skills of the GAMEMASTER. If he doesn´t use the options of the game, the different classes run wild.

Or as someone's signature points out:

"The less the GM understands the Matrix rules, the less powerful the Hacker archetype. The less the GM understands the Magic rules, the more powerful the Mage archetype."
My GM could really push the Matrix fairly well. There was still the Pizza Problem, but at least he could make the matrix useful to a degree that a Hacker didn't feel useless. On the other hand, he didn't run a lot of the magic stuff in a way that hurt power gamers.

Taking this statement as true, that "The sam has his part in the team as every other class has and i haven´t seen any class outshining another" then why are we discussing mages being over-nerfed? Surely if that statement is true then they've been nerfed just right and everyone now has an equal place?

I should have added the phrase "in SR4A". ^^ In SR5 mages ARE overnerfed. ^^

As a Shadowrun Missions GM, saying goodbye to Force 12 Stunballs is a good thing. Except in a rare edge case, a high initiative mage throwing a F12 Stunball turned combat off.

Sometimes I welcomed that... it meant that we could get done in less than the 4 hour time slot... but it also got boring.

Then the mages initiated... running Y4 mods about a month ago I got to see F16 stunballs.

Direct Spells suck. My thought on fixing it was to let mundanes learn counterspelling so they'd have an equivalent to dodge.

I think this solution is viable, but it wouldn´t fit the setting. I would rather accept the optional drain-rule from SR4 and then F12+ Stunballs are also history. Except in very rare cases when the shit hits the fan THAT HARD, that the mage rather risks being knocked out or flattened physically by drain than being shot.

Letting mundanes learn how to focus their minds/bodies to resist the magic affecting them doesn't see too setting messed up.

I didn't mean for them to shield each other, just use counterspelling as a means of "magical dodge/armor" so they could be on a fair footing vs direct spells just like mages were.

Even an F6 stunball effectively turns combat off. F6 + 5 hits vs 3 willpower = unconscious NPC almost every time. Once the initiated mage hits magic 8, F8 + 5 hits pretty much still ends combat.

Right, but don´t forget that the game is intended to be a team-game. Having a mage in your group is an advantage. Most of my time as a mage, i solely have the part to provide counterspelling. Being hit by a spell without counterspelling is like being hit by a pistol without wearing armor. In both cases you go down. The mage have to be able to one-shot his target, because he can only shoot in SS-mode and if he doesn´t succeed, HE is most probably the one that goes down in the next action phase. I still don´t see the problem. BEFORE the mage can one-shot you, you

1) need to stand right in front of him (which is stupid, no matter what class we talk about)
2) he needs to act before you do (which also is not standard)
3) you need to be alone (or if you act in a group) your all have to stand within the same range (both stupid actions).

For me it is rock/paper/scissors. A mage can do nearly nothing against a rigger, but i haven´t heard a rigger or a mage complain about this fact. Your mage one-shots the enemies? Send a drone.

Actually, it doesn't. The optional rule would leave F12 stunballs as just as effective as they are now:

Mage rolls, gets net hits, the spell effects the targets. He chooses to use 0 net hits to increase the damage. Targets resist 12 damage (av. 3 dice). The NPC would need to roll all-hits to stay conscious.

Optional rule has had no impact.

Then I would say that your GM just did not use it as it should be. BGC and Wards should be a common occurrance. And before you (or others) mention that Mages are rare, they are more common than a Doctor is, and I see Hospitals, Clinics and Dr. Offices everywhere. AND you can get a consultant right out of the phone book...

1) of course i think that. If not here, where else should i get this data? I could start a relationship with one of the publishing-crew but this would take too much work and time. ^^

2) I know, but the german books always include the erratas before they get published. So one goes with the other.

3) thank you.

Yes, the optional rule in SR4A was garbage... Better to go to a F +/- Modifiers Drain mechanic.

You are right, i think i had the rule wrong in my mind. Ok, so we need more drain. MORE DRAIN, MORE DRAIN, FREE TIBET, MORE DRAIN!!!

Which is why I like the SR5 rules for BC. It's very easy to say "oh you get 3 less dice to your tests from BC" than it is to say "oh by the way, here's a list of status effects for you to keep track of."

Or Magic Armor that Mundanes can buy in a store. After all... F12 Stunballs are just big, weird, magic grenades.

It's a Missions problem, generally there's only 1-2 combats in the mod, and the player takes his character home to heal before the next one.

F12/F16 Stunballs with their massive AOE means, that NPCs who aren't really that close (16m = about 50 feet radius ) only within an area of 800 Sq meters or 8654 square feet are all affected if the mage can see them. Giving the defenders a couple dice as a vision modifier defense bonus doesn't even give them a chance.

The mage might take a couple points of physical drain, but there's the post mission recovery period to put him back together to do it all over again.

And high initiative mages seem to be the norm in Missions... Sustaining Focused or Quickened Improved Attribute spells + Increased Reflexes and in SR4a I tend to see mages go on initiative 25 or so.

How hard is it to say "subtract the BGC from your Magic Rating/Foci Ratings/Active Spell ratings; Add the BGC to your Drain?"
Simple, and done in a sentence. No more difficult, really

Never underestimate the value of Cover, since the defender gets that modifier to his defense as well. It is not all that hard to get decent resistance if you actually pay attention to your environment rather than trading blows across open ground. If that is your preferred fighting style, a mage isn't even a requirement to remove you from the fight.

You can say "rewrite your character sheet" with a sentence. It's still lengthy and annoying.

I disagree that it is annoying... Others may differ in their opinion. I far prefer SR4A's BGC than the proposed SR5's version. I feel that the SR5 version is too easlily sidestepped.
No worries, though...

I don't know about y'all, but I'd say only 20% of my games end up being actual combat.

It's fun and all to say the Samurai or the Adept is better because they can throw 18 dice towards their attacks, or what have you, but in my experience the mage being able to use "Influence" on the guard to let them by or "Mind Probe" on their kidnapping victim to determine who he works for seems to make Mages plenty powerful. If you acknowledge that a limited portion of the game is combat, then it's ok that the Street Sam is significantly better at it than the mage. The mage has always been a swiss army knife, not a bludgeon. Our sammy spent a not insignificant amount of time on our last run twiddling his thumbs because he wasn't as useful at information gathering, scouting, networking (gotta love that Charisma plays into drain AND contacts), etc. etc. etc. If you look at the system as a whole, from start to finish each archetype has their place in a group. It's just a matter of the mage not being lords of all creation anymore; and frankly I'm fine with that.

-DrZ

actually, magicians can still be beasts in combat.

it *does* take a bit more preparation to do it, plus an extra skill (and it does cost you some nuyen).

how does it work, you ask?

well, you start by adding abilities that increase your natural healing rate. which just adds to the power of mystic adepts, mind you. but regardless, that's just the first thing.

having done that, you now beef up your alchemy skill. use it to prepare an indirect combat spell (force of double your magic). use reagents to set the maximum hits to your magic. give it a command trigger. you may or may not be able to pull off multiples of this. the potency will hopefully come out at 6, and presto; you now have a single use of a high force indirect spell which you've probably already slept off the drain for by the time you need to use it, and that spell likely has a pool ranging from 15-18 dice at chargen (in extreme cases, it could be 21 dice). with a limit of 10-14, depending on starting magic attribute.

and there you go, your magician can now wreck people completely and utterly in combat (note: area versions will need to be thrown or placed first, because of the rules for preparations... on the plus side, the rules for preparations also reduce the area, which when you're talking about a 12 meter radius that would likely have included you, is generally actually an advantage).

hell SR4 had that "Weapons Platform" that could swap into an AR, a Carbine, a Sniper Rifle, a Shotgun, an LMG, all of which used the Automatics skill.

It didn't have an attachment that would let me use Automatics to fly, turn invisible, read the minds of strangers, detect everyone within 600 meters with hostile intent towards me, offset the effects of sleep deprivation, or see what was happening on the other side of the world, though.

Obviously you didn't buy the Machine Gun Jet Pack.

yes but DWC, count how much Karma a mage had to sink to get those spells? & in general I would say Karma is the rarest commodity a team of runners has. Besides..how often are you looking across the world? Not often in my games.

ummm... the ability to fly for 5 karma is pretty much a way better deal than almost any other way of spending karma. if you offered the street samurai the ability to use "automatics" to fly for 5 karma, you would not hear complaints, you would hear celebration, because that would be the best 5 karma that street samurai ever spent.

or he could call his fixers & get a personal Flight unit to fly...& since he only needs cash he probably can buy one.

It's 5 karma per spell. Less than a session worth of karma, to gain a new wondrous power every session, all readily usable at full effectiveness with a skill you bought at a 6 at character creation. Karma is far from a rare commodity. Even on jobs where you don't get paid, or where you take a financial loss, you're still getting karma. The mage spends ten bucks on a new cutting tool for his CMM machine. The mundane has to go out and spend tens of thousands on an end mill, or a drill press, or a lathe.

Your argument does not hold water. I can spend less nuyen, than a single point of Karma would convert to in Chargen, getting a Grapple gun than it takes to learn to Fly, and with no drain. And viola. I can levitate up and down buildings with the greatest of ease. If my street Sam actually needs to fly, it is still less Nuyen (Just over 3 Karma) to get me a machine that will do it for me, and far less problematicaly.