BTW I got a deadtree copy a couple of weeks ago and three rules pages already popped out of the binding (on my first read through). Did I just get a bad copy of have others experienced similar issues?

There have been several people observing the same problem. There's a thread on the official Catalyst board about it.

The FASA Glue strikes back from the dead!

My thoughts on grenades:

I played a grenade thrower in SR4 and it was so effective, it wasn't fun anymore. In close combat, throw some gas grenades (with different gases) and have your team wear the anti-dote patch and a gas mask. Farther away it is even more powerful, with some luck, chunky salsa will kill everyone, even before the first round is finished. Or you set up a rain of grenades, so the opposition does not know where to flee to. The GM then offered, either the opposition will start doing the same, or I stop it. So, we banned grenades alltogether from the game. (I made a new char. ) In most rounds, I visited, there were either "creative" interpretations of the ruleset and/or none of the players had ever had the idea to play with grenades.

In 5e, grenades are about as OP as they were, from what I am seeing. Neurostun is upped to 15S from 10, so I don't even have to throw two grenades anymore. One suffices. Just as well, since I can't throw two in an action anymore. Now the whole cannot-be-dodged issue is even harsher than in SR4. From my (somewhat limited) gameplay experience in SR5, I can see that dodging is both extremely effective and often leads to fights lasting over quite a lot of rounds, before someone meets their usually quite sudden demise. On the other hand, you do get an extra turn to prepare for the onset of the vomiting. Also, I don't get the whole does a grenade kill my combat ork not not discussion, as with some Reaction boosting or by lending a grenade to one of your friends, there is always the possibility of throwing TWO grenades. Which remains just as deadly as it was in SR4.

So, I can't really see how this is a flaw of the 5ed, unless you compare them to 3ed, where explosive grenades were ridiculous in a different way. (Trolls eating them for breakfast).

They were even marketed as Troll Pop Rocks way back when.

Because its worse in 5e. In 4e you could survive a lots of grenade attacks, in 5e you can't. Sure yeah chunky salsa is a crap rule always has been, always will be.(and if you watch myth busters far from accurate) but in non chunky salasa situations grenades were very survivable in 4e, deadly yes, but not instant inescapable death. 4e basically had a decent balance on it. And yes, chemical attacks whther neuro stun or narco jet darts have always been OP in shadowrun, supposedly balanced by the cost.

Sounds like the easy way, just drop grenades from the board due to lack of working rules for it.

I tried to summarize the grenade rules that I could find and found that to get to "no defence" you have to be a bit creative. As if someone tried to add "but you can defend" but forgot to do the math and talk with the rest of the team (as with much in the game).

My summary is found here:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=39934

And shows that a creative decker, use of jamming and not standing near a slow "friend" actually give some degree of defence against grenades. REgular: Always blow up next turn (A full turn to run away, requires special initiative planning to work around for no defence), Motion sensor: Must target a person, not possible to target "ground at his feet", so opposed test. (worked around by having a grenade with no damage falloff like gas, flash or spell), Airburst: requires wireless on and is the only place where a Technomancer is useful thanks to blowing up all airburst grenades at once without having to put marks on them first (pupeteer), airburst is also very easy to defend against using a jammer. (Jammer rating must be greater than grenade device rating for this to work, this also means airburst don't work in spam areas or wilderness?)

Yeah, well, saying that grenades are prime targets for hackers just escalates the violence imho.

It does make good fluff for "discouraging" players to use wifi-grenades, as they could be hacked easily and then just blow up in your face (actually getting bricked, they would just fizzle a bit). The regular grenades are a tactical nightmare, but make good cover busters, similar to how they are used in the real battlefield.

But then you could simply turn on wifi manually when actally throwing the grenade. Even if that takes a simple action that gives you another simple action to throw the grenade.

And neuro gas is clearly OP and if they get all hacked, you probably carry non-wifi backup, which is about as deadly (or stunning to be more precise).

I've always imagined (even in SR4) that the wireless of wireless grenades was turned on when the pin was removed. It would make sense.

Speaking on the wireless grenades and switching them off/on for wireless, where would this switch be kept do you suppose?

It has to be easy enough to flip easily and quickly, but not so easy that it can be flipped accidentally. And keep in mind grenades are often handled a bit roughly: being carried on external belts, kept in crates, generally on the body of an active soldier doing soldierly stuff like running, jumping and hitting the ground to avoid other grenades....

@Blade, I thought about that too and it would make sense that the grenade does not go 'live' on the wireless front until the pin is pulled for those being manually lobbed, but what about a grenade launcher? Is it live when loaded into the firing tube or after it launches?

I realize it detracts from the game play itself, but there is so much talk of flipping everything's wireless on or off, but given the number of potential devices external to the body and therefore needing their own turning off and on (one assumes that internal ware just has their wireless on or off by DNI command from the head) this can be a bit time consuming in some circumstances.

I would theorize that a launched grenade wouldn't have wireless activated until it had passed the safety range (5m) and thus wouldn't be 'live' until after launch. Saying that though spoofing a DETONATE command to a grenade, contained in a drum of grenades, held by a person is just funny

@Sendaz: There's already a security feature on grenade launchers so that the grenades will only blow up after a certain amount of rotations (to avoid getting blown off by your own grenade if it hits something too soon). This could also be used for the wireless.
Or I guess you could have a mechanism inside the launcher that switches something (physically) on the grenade right before launch.

For Thrown Grenades, Wireless should go active once the igniter releases from the Body, and as for Launched Grenades, Impact detonation is far better than wireless. *shrug*