Cars do stand still every now and then

That, and we're talking about an axe specifically designed for combat using 2070's material science. At 10-13+Strength Damage+AP, you've got a pretty solid chance of getting through, sure, but there's no getting around the fact that this weapon is designed to get through Armour. And it still takes a 5 to have a shot at damaging a Nightsky with a single net hit - otherwise, you've got to do a bit more than just hitting it, but actually hit it in the right place.

I have, actually. Not only am I a boy scout with the woodcutting merit badge (cutting wood with an axe is kind of a requirement) I do live on a farm. That said, we do have a 2700 foot-pound powered log splitter. We have a LOT of wood.



Pretty sure I mentioned hitting the battery.
Which I'd like to add is right under the hood. I don't know about armored vehicles, but I do own a car. My car's hood is not anywhere near the durability of a gumtree log. Pretty sure my car would crumple if it met one.

Now, even if we don't disable the car by smashing it to pieces, you know what else happens when a massive strike hits a modern vehicle?

Air bags.

It is in fact possible to set those off just by smacking the front of the car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1m2xNeAKfI

Also you do not have to hit it with an axe to set off the airbags... just jump in it's path.

High-end armoring covers the battery with ballistic steel... still if you hit right...

and this is kinda where we get into 'logic our way around everything we like but not the things we don't like'.

I'm not talking about making called shots at the tires (I can't imagine most armoured vehicles have tires filled with air or at least run-flat tires but that's just me). I'm not talking about taking to a Toyota Yarris. I'm talking about what is ACTUALLY happening in Shadowrun. I approach a vehicle like a Bradley and remove the engine with said axe, no called shots required. I'm not sure why the vehicle doesn't have 2070 defence technology to match the extra sharp 2070 axe though?

Why do we even get to use the 'Oh but in 2070...' argument now anyway when it can't be applied to the matrix apparently? I don't actually care whether you can turn a car into swiss cheese with an axe. I actually think it's kinda cool, but I'm simply pointing out that it breaks as many realism rules as people think the matrix does.

Ah, the all so popular "R" word. I dare to say, that nothing in SR is about realism, especially not the rules. Especially the latter, as has been pointed out now and then, is an abstraction. Still one would like rules to make sense on all levels, the world and the game, it definitly is a balance act. I do not think, that I would like to play a game, that is very realistic.

Now that would mean that you are not from around these US parts, 'cause the BSA has never had a woodcutting merit badge. Eagle Scout, 22-years as a Scout leader, and a BSA history buff.

Yeah, they do like their wire saw more than the choppy choppy toys it seems.

Ironically the Boy Scouts DO have a Merit badge for Atomic Energy as well as one for Nuclear Science. If I recall correctly building your own Geiger counter was one of the three things you had to build for the AE badge.

They still exist in the 2070's but I think they are called Soy Scouts now.

Right. And the airbags going off tends to be detrimental to the driver's ability to drive.



Ah, it was the wood carving badge, which requires getting a Totin' Chip, which requires "using an ax as a tool."

It's been 16? years since I did that. I got the last (timed) requirement for Eagle Scout at 7pm the night before my 18th birthday, and that was over 10 years ago.

So while I'm not someone who "works with this kind of stuff all the time" I can easily imagine it being possible. Afterall, we're talking about a max-strength orc here...which is significantly above my Strength of 2.

Also recall that the biggest, baddest armored vehicle in the core book is a glorified riot control vehicle, not a tank or armored troop transport. Military-grade armored vehicles would probably, if you look at the kinds of damage that anti-vehicle rockets do and construct even marginally effective armor ratings, would probably have armor up in the 30s.

No armored ground vehicle has yet been developed that can't be beaten by a big enough pit.

*cough* Helitank *cough*

Question is... Does it actually work?

Well the rotors are mostly for deploying the unit to hard to reach areas and bypassing obstacles.

While you can launch the missiles while airborne, to really open up with the Twin Gatlings (using ramjet ammo for added punch) you need to land as it will toss the whole thing like a leaf otherwise.

Will let you know how it performed when we get back from trying a couple of these out against those flying bears that took out our Banshees awhile back.

Just waiting on the last shipment of reflective coating for the units.

Gonna get me a flying fur rug.......

Maybe the oh but 2070 tech thing works because the rules show us where that 2070 tech advanced. I'm pretty sure the axe I have in my closet is not a +5 DV -3 AP killing machine. But 2070 combat axes are. And besides I think most people are cool with the 2070 tech argument for the tech side of the matrix. They don't buy the its 2070 part for setting statements on how people, security conscious types would treat the matrix. So, its 2070s tech encryption doesn't exist is fine. Its 2070s tech everyone is wireless man even people who are in positions to get hacked more frequently than the random joe, not so good.

Side note cars are not durable enough IMO, too much of the car does not matter. You can take an axe to most of my car all day and all you are doing is making holes and dents. The rules don't reflect that tons of the car just is not important.

Side, Side note. A properly built troll can punch his way into a ciitymaster he doesn't need axes.

Of course...it's a troll your talking about. So no real surprise.

That is like saying that a Human should then be capable of punching through a VW Bug, after all, it is just a VW Bug. Either stance is still pretty ludicrous... *shrug*
I really do think that SR4A had Melee combat right (Fists just should not cause the damage of a Panther Assault Cannon, which you could also sadly attain in SR4A, as well, but it took a fair bit of specialization). It was a sad day when I saw what they did with Melee in SR5, which just ramped the damage up even more.

So, if someone has 2.5 times peak level human strength and executes the strike properly, what should their fists be compared to in terms of the damage or injury they produce?

Ever see a Mike Tyson Fight? There you go... Except that Mike Tyson does not Destroy Cars with his fists... Probably shatter his fists/arm bones though if he seriously tried.

Replace "troll" in the sentence with "rhino" and tell me if the sentence is still ludicrous.

A Troll, However, IS NOT A RHINO... And I am sure that you will agree with that sentiment. *shrug*

Too much realism and you get into the pheonix command type scenarios where it takes half an hour determine what organ got hit, how this affects the target. Great for detail, bad for game play.

... No, that doesn't work. Mike Tyson may or may not have peak human strength, but he certainly doesn't have 2.5 TIMES peak human strength.

He also doesn't have the kind of bone density and leverage a Troll does.

Remember, folks, Trolls aren't just Big Humans.

Neither are they a Rhino... Pretty sure we can agree on that one as well.

So you fundamentally disagree that a cybered up troll with 16 strength--on par, if not exceeding, most large animals like bears, rhinos, and hippos--could not and should not wtf-ruin a car in the same degree as these large animals?

Yes, I FUNDAMENTALLY disagree with your stance... The troll is still only 300 to 400 pounds... Which is a far cry from 2000+ pounds or more of the Rhino (Some even go as high as 7500 pounds)... So No, he will NEVER cause the kinds of Damage that a Rhino is capable of. Sure, he can dent a car up all day long with his fists if he likes (Bears will generally not damage a car to non functionality), but he should not be able to just slap it and cause any "Real" damage. See, I do not agree with the Melee Damage of SR5. I think it is ludicrous. I FAR prefer the Str/2 Damage of SR4A. I see it as less of a verisimilitude breach. *shrug*

SR4 still had trolls one-shotting armored vehicles. Or have we already forgotten about the trollbow on trollerskates?

No, sadly.

Not for lack of trying.

None of My Trolls did that... But yes. However, you had to highly specialize for that. Sadly, though SR4A tried, they did not go far enough to eliminate that issue; and in fact, in SR5, apparently they just decided that this was an okay design principle and ran with it.

Just one more reason I will not buy.

What? Trolls with combat axes or bows have been wrecking vehicles since at least SR3.

If I recall correctly a friend made a Troll that could punch out a panzer back in 3rd Ed.

Naturally I fed him a panzer to punch out, because, yeah.

We liked the Pink Mohawk style.

Exactly, which is Crap... SR4A went a long way to fixing that, but did not go far enough...
You want to wreck a vehicle, you do not punch it or cut it with a Sword. *shrug*

We're back to SR4(a) not really being very much like Shadowrun at all, and thus being a shitty comparison point. Also, you're complaining about the level of realism involved in a Troll with metal muscles attacking a tank with a diamond axe.

I still wonder what you think the damage of someone with 2.5 times peak human strength and titanium reinforced bones properly executing an unarmed strike should be comparable to. Because the only attempt at an answer you offered was someone who is, per definition, within the range of human strength.

Unless it got retconned in SR5, trolls average 8 Body, 7 Strength, and 225kg (495lbs). Not as big as a rhino, but still pretty hefty. I seem to recall trolls maxing out around 365kg (800lbs), but I don't think it was ever explicitly written in the stuff I've read.

They SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO DAMAGE A VEHICLE appreciably with either their fists or a melee weapon... Work better for you?

So you're looking for a total retcon of troll strength and strength augmentation in general, from across 5 editions?

Not really. What I'm trying to establish, here, is that there's no way to model what you want to model when there's only a single system for damage applied to anything. For such characters to be able to deal the damage they should to human targets in such a system, things like this will inevitably come up. However, without baking some kind of scaling system into the system at the core (in which case, trolls would probably be staged up in scale from baseline humans), any attempt to resolve it will get stupidly over-complicated. Plus, from a balance perspective, you can't go creating a situation where a vehicle or drone is a perfect defense against melee.

And I'm not sure I can grant the idea that no melee weapon ever could produce the right amount of the right sort of force in the right place to damage a vehicle, especially when we're bringing people with twice peak human strength into play.

No, as I said, SR4A went in the right direction, and I could live with it. Half Strength, Stun - WHICH DOES NO DAMAGE TO A VEHICLE AT ALL. Works for me.
Add a Combat Axe, and You MIGHT get enough damage to actually hurt a vehicle (Physical Damage after all), MAYBE.

Problem is... you cannot even simulate a Boxing Match AT ALL in Shadowrun. I think that is a horrible state of affairs. Adding to that the ability for a Troll with Combat Axe to destroy a car with a single hit, and that just jumps the shark for verisimilitude.

Really? You don't see how it's possible for something with 2.5 times peak human strength, leverage superior to a human (reach), and a leverage based weapon designed to create massive shear force and to penetrate 2070's armor could damage an engine block?

I'll grant that the melee rules need some additions, though.

Fails realism there, too. You can take a car apart pretty effectively with a sledgehammer and a wrecking bar, if you take the time. If I can take a door off in a couple-three swings, I assume a guy who's half again my height and four or five times as strong could probably manage it a bit faster.

SR cars probably use more plastics than metals. IC engine blocks are probably mostly aluminum; electrics probably have relatively fragile batteries that depend on the frame to protect them. The frame is probably the only thing left in most cars that's still steel, and possibly the drivetrain on the heavier vehicles. Electric drive motors might be hard to destroy completely, but not too hard to damage if you have a tool. Even if our car-hating troll were attacking a current 2013 car, he could still cause a lot of damage by cutting wires or hoses, breaking small parts off (like fuel injectors or glow plugs), cutting belts, punching holes in the radiator(s), etc. Beating through the skin of the vehicle should be no problem at all unless the vehicle is actually armored.

I really don't, No.
Yes, the Melee rules need a LOT of work.

Doors do not impact Driveability. Yes, You can render a vehicle scrap given time and determination. You will never do so in a single blow. Trolls should not be abled to do so either. Sadly, IN SR, they can. Breaks Immersion and Verisimilitude, at least for me. *shrug*

ALL (well, most anyways) vehicles in SR are Armored.

Are they? That's a change from the earlier editions, then. It used to be pretty much just security vehicles. The average civilian cars had no armor.

In SR4A, The vast majority of vehicles have some armor (ever if not a lot of it).