Which is a serious flaw in the Matrix system. It's too easy & too good a countermeasure. Especially if you load up on Stealth Tags. I imagine the Matrix book will be introducing consequences to Running Silent (other then the -2 to Matrix Actions.) I probably wouldn't allow it at my table (and wouldn't use it against my players.) The team Running Silent while on a run I expect. But aggravating things by having dozens of things running silent as camouflage? Just seems cheap somehow to me.

As a GM and as a player, I tend to go with 'I don't care if it is 'cheap', as long as it works'. If it is a viable tactic, go ahead and use it But to each their own.

It just points out the major flaw in SR5's Matrix rules. Most of them were pretty clearly written by people who weren't talking to each other, and as a result we have an overall vision that is full of internal contradictions and rules mayhem.

Ahhh... Well, that explains that... It is a 5th Edition Book.

Agreed...

Unless you decide that you're going to look for guns running silent. Or commlinks running silent. Or R4+ commlinks running silent. That strategy only works against someone who's actually considering the set of all silent devices; if you know at least one feature of what you're looking for you can look at just things that have that feature.

I don't think it works that way. the icons are hidden so you have no idea what they are or where they are only that they are there. "There are 6 hidden icons in you area" should be the only information that you get. You may ask the question "How many hidden gun icons are there," but the answer will still include ALL hidden icons because you can't distinguish what they are until you do the second test.

If I know a a feature of one of those 6 icons and go looking for one with that feature, I find the one with that feature, per the Matrix Perception Table. I still have to beat its Logic + Sleaze, but the whole cloud of RFIDs thing doesn't work against someone looking for a specific sort of icon.

If you cannot locate an icon, you have no way to sort it by it's features.

You cannot categorize a thing by features that are unknown to you, unless of course your categorization is 'all unknown icons'.






Read the actual rules, please. You cannot simply assume an icon is of a given type without identifying it in order to skip an opposed test.

So, in your version of the rules, at what time can you be said to know one of the features of an icon running silent? And how does filtering for that feature differ at that point differ from attempting the same based on that feature any other time?

Really, the obvious synthesis here is that you can locate a given icon based on a feature, but if there are multiple icons with that feature you must look randomly between them.

It's not my version of the rules, man. It's quoted from the source.

Per the rules :

You can use a Matrix Perception test to identify if there are Running Silent icons within 100m of your physical location, or on the Host if you are on a Host.

Once you have determined if there are any running silent icons, you can Spot them, which requires an Opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] v.
Logic + Sleaze Test.

If there are multiple silent running icons in the vicinity, you have to pick randomly which one you’re going to look at through the Opposed Test.

If you fail the Opposed Test, you cannot Spot the icon, and thus have no way to determine any feature about that icon. If you pass, you can Spot the icon.

A further Matrix Perception Test will allow you to determine the features of a spotted Running Silent icon as normal for icons.


Is this terribly logically laid out? No. It's 5e rules, though, so as usual the mechanics are a bit cobbled together.

When I say your version, I mean your reading of that text. Because I'm going by the same text, and disagree with your reading - specifically because you completely ignore part of them. Specifically, you ignore the but about spotting an icon based on a known feature, which any reasonable reading would take to mean that if you have a feature to go off of, you don't have to randomly consider the set of all hidden icons.

It is directly contradicted by the very reference in that note.



Bolding mine. The chart directs you to see the Running Silent section, where it lays out that you cannot perceive a Running Silent icon in any detail without first making the opposed test.

So no, you don't get to skip the opposed test by assuming a feature of the icon.

The opposed test? Of course not, never said you did. Perhaps if you read a little more closely, you'd see that I'm saying you skip having to randomly consider each and every Silent icon until you find the one you're looking for - rather, simply the set of all Silent icons possessing that feature. Meaning that the cloud of RFIDs trick doesn't work, but if you're looking for wireless guns and there are 3 dozen of them around, you still have to go through each of those in random order.

Again, reading comprehension is your friend.



Full stop, end of story. I don't particularly -like- the way it's set up, but I didn't get to write it.

That's the general rule. There is a specific rule pertaining to when you know at least one feature about what you're looking for.

This is not a reading comprehension issue. This is a "I'm reading ALL the rules and you're reading SOME of the rules" issue, because you've decided to ignore a piece of the rules.

Point it out. The reference you're using specifically directs you to the running silent rules, which state that you can't act on a running silent icon until you've made the opposed test, which is targeted against a random running silent icon of those available.

It points there because outside of that change, it follows all other rules for dealing with a Running Silent icon - meaning you still must win the opposed test.

Indeed, but again, note the wording. The opposed test is targeted randomly among all running silent icons in the host/your detection range. Not all running silent icons of a given type, because if they were broadcasting the device type, then they wouldn't be running silent, now would they.

Or randomly from all devices with a given feature. Loosely defined type is certainly a feature.

You're adding something here that the wording of the rules does not support.

It'd be nice if it did, and honestly this is a section that's going to get houseruled when I run with it, but it flat doesn't.

Then what is the meaning of that line, exactly?

Exactly what it says, if there are multiple silent running icons in the vicinity, you have to pick randomly which one you’re going to look at through the Opposed Test.

I think they want you to actually know something about a silent icon, like... Does the pistol being pointed at me kave a matrix icon? No? Okay, I'll do a matrix perception test against that icon assuming that it is running silent. Becuase you know that the pistol should have an icon, you can presume that it is running silent. You can presume that the same user's com-unit is also running silent, but until you see the com-unit you can't call it out for the test because you don't know for sure that it even exists.

Of course that is just my opinion on the intent of the rules.

Wrong line. What is it that you think is the intent of the "If you know a feature of an icon Running Silent..." is there for?

Does anyone know the engagement ranges for urban snipers in Iraq?

Because once you pass the opposed test you know it is there and you can spot it normally... but it is still running silently. Passing the opposed test doesn't miraculously turn the gear into normal mode, it is still silent. Therefore if you know a feature about the icon that is running silent...

And in addition, it you were looking for all the gun icons running silently, in my group you would end up with the answer of "none." Because they all slave to their commlink, per the listing on pg 235

which means the persona on the commlink subsumes the gun icon and since they are running silent there would only be persona icons running silent.

Most stories coming out of the Middle East theater are between 300m and 1500m depending on the situation. In the Marines there is a position called the Designated Marksman. He uses a modified M-14 (7.62mm) semi-auto rifle instead of the standard issue bolt action for the designated sniper. The DM is embedded with his platoon where the sniper and spotter are a 2-man team on their own. The DM would be the one shooting in the 100 - 200m range.

... Once you've won the opposed test, you've spotted the icon.

And slaving doesn't work like that - you're still wirelessly visible if you don't run silent. What that line says is that your commlink icon instead becomes your persona icon - other icons are unchanged.

The problem is that you do not KNOW the identity of a silent Icon until you have beaten the device in an opopsed test with at least a net hit. Looking for Comlinks makes sense, problem is that you will likely find hundreds of such things in an area ot 100 Meter radius. And if they are not hidden, you can eliminate all of the dross. Sad part is that the Rules do not make sense with the way they are written. IF IT IS HIDDEN, you MUST IDENTIFY IT througfh an opposed test (and to do so, you apparently take a crap shoot unitl you find the one you want). If you do not succeed on the test, it is an unidentified Icon that is still running silent (And even if identified, it is still running silent, which is where the "If you know a feature of a running silent Icon" sentence comes form).

The rules are the problem, but I have to agree with Binarywraith... They are the rules we have, and yep, they suck in a lot of places.

Farthest Sniper Shot in Iraq (IIRC) is about 1400 Meters or so. May be a bit longer, and yes, it was an Urban Environment.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of the "if you know a feature" line that actually works and is consistent with that reading.

After all, if we have two competing readings, and one accounts for more of the text than the other and prevents stupid crap the other allows...

Wasn't that Chief Kyle, shooting from a rooftop at another shooter up in the minaret atop a mosque? In short, two individuals in elevated positions above an urban area with very few tall buildings to stir up odd crosswinds, mitigating the effects of the intervening city?

Not sure... the one I remember is the American Sniper (Army if I remember correctly) in his station shooting into an Apartment Side (enemy combatants shooting onto the street that had to be neutralized)...
I do believe the gunner was elevated, but the target was on an apartment balcony.

As near as I can tell, it's not that beating the Opposed Test allows you to Spot the Running Silent Icon, it's that beating the Opposed Test will give you one (or more) pieces of information about the Running Silent Icon, as per normal Matrix Perception. (IE, win the opposed test with two net hits, get two pieces of info.) Once you have any pieces of info (IE, you know a feature) you spot the Icon, and further Matrix Perception checks are normal & unopposed.

I could be wrong, but that's definitely how I interpret it at this time.

I believe that I covered that in the quote you just replied to, as well as several others having also done so. I do not see the disconnect that you apparantly do. I also think it needs a lot of clarification, but seems pretty self-explanatory TO ME, anyways.

You cannot KNOW a feature of a Silently Running Device until You have actually beaten it in the contested roll... at which point you know have a feature (or two).

You did not. Per the Running Silent rules, the instant you win the Opposed Test you perceive the icon as normal - thus that line cannot be relevant to that event.

And it is possible to know features before the roll - for example, you may have previously seen the icon you're looking for, and it has successfully hidden.

So wait, the Sniper was Army with the Target being 1400 meters away.

So what/who did he hit? To the best of my knowledge there are no barns in Iraq.

Just Teasing. (Ex AF so we have to yank Army's chain just for good measure)

Still, must have been quite a surprise for the enemy combatants who probably thought they were out of range for immediate reprisals/support fire for their targets.

But if it is suddenly hidden, which Icon are you going to try to perceive to reacquire it? See, I disagree with your basic premise, as does the book, to my reading. Regardless, whichever of us is ultimately correct is irrelevant, because of its ambiguity. If there are multiple possible (rational) readings, it is by its nature unclear at its very core. It needs to be clarified to which is the correct reading.

But the rules do say that knowing a feature of an icon that is Running Silent allows you to spot it with a (presumably net) hit on a Matrix Perception Test. For a reading to be rational, it must account for that detail, and I've yet to see it properly accounted for in your reading.

You cannot know a feature until you have made the Matrix perception Test to Detect the Icon... Once you have done so, then you know the feature (assuming you got more than the Single net hit to actually detect the Running Silent Icon.

Any knowledge comes AFTER that roll, not BEFORE. And thus the line is accounted for.

But at that point, you've spotted the icon - so that cannot be the situation the line applies to. Under your reading, you must spot the icon to know a feature of it, and therefore knowing a feature of it cannot help you spot it. But the rules say that knowing a feature can help you spot it. The contradiction is clear, yes?

Not really, no... I think you are reading more into it than is really there. Like I said earlier, there are at least 2 ways to read that text, and probably several more if I went back and looked at what others have stated. It is so unclear that it causes consternation and argument about something that should be crystal clear (and you really cannot say that it is, becuase many people have issues with it)... It will likely never be cleared up, if CGL's history with Errata follows form.

Johnson: The target you're after has a Top of the line Commlink, highest end line, not something many people can get their hands on

Decker: Good to know, I think that will make him easier to find in the matrix.

Something like this strikes me as "knowing a feature". Due to information you were given you know that the commlink you're looking for is 7+ in Device Rating, so anything under that can be filtered during your Matrix Perception test

If that were the case, it'd make Running Silent pointless, since you could just look for any device with a Sleaze Attribute and find cyberdecks far too easily.

That's not true, entirely. Stealth Tags should be on almost everything, and they also have Sleaze. Also Decks aren't forbidden, so there are legit people walking around with decks. You don't want a false positive. Its also not illegal to run silent, but it is illegal to not have your SIN broadcasting. So if you have a commlink with your SIN and your deck running silent, I don't think the Pawns will care. Though, I'm sure different corporate facilities will have different rules on running silent.

You still have to win the opposed test to spot them.

which people running a Deck have a good chance to win

I would also say, that this "feature" to spot an icon running silent has to be defined a lot more closely ASAP.
As described in the rules you only get the information if there is one or more icons running silent in your host or in 100m range.
I always interpreted the "you can spot, if you know one of the features of the hidden icon" as a search filter like "show me only the smartguns".
But I have seen on threads for example "show me the icon that has just attacked me" as a feature or just a few post before me here "show me all hidden decks".

As long as we don't know, if this "feature" sentence is meant like a filter (which I personally think is highly probable) and don't have examples what is a valid feature and what is not, different tables will have vastly different views regarding how the matrix is seen and how useful running silent is.

By the way, how did you interpret the SR4 hidden nodes, if you made a "Detect Hidden Node" action for all hidden nodes in mutual signal ranges. The description of that action only said, that you may search all hidden nodes in range, but it never explicitly described, what the output of this search was.
Did you a) see every hidden node around with its position just as clearly as you could see active/passive nodes or did you just get a list of hidden nodes around you and you had to Analyze each and every one to find the hidden smartgun of your enemy.
Both would be valid interpretations of the description of "Detect Hidden Node", but of course the latter is by far less useful. I was never sure, what they intended. Has that been clarified?

Reminds me of the running silent discussions.

Well, for the sake of discussion, here that is from SR4. (I refuse to touch SR5 with a ten-foot pole.)


If you're searching for hidden nodes, I would have to say that you can see the nodes in question in your AR field of view, and would be able to determine their Signal rating, but that's all that Detect Hidden Node would do on its own - though you could certainly set your Analyze program to automatically buy hits (using your Computer + Analyze program) to determine info about nodes as EWar + Scan detects them.

So if there's an ork hiding under the trashcan (just assume it's a huge can or a small ork) with a disposable commlink running in hidden mode, Detect Hidden Node would tell you there's a Signal 3 node under there. That's something, but it could be a disposable commlink tossed in the trash by its last owner, a sensor, or pretty much anything that would be running in hidden mode.

You could, of course, Analyze it to determine that it's a commlink and that its Matrix attributes are Response 1, Signal 3, System 2, Firewall 1; information which together will tell you it's a disposable commlink. No way of knowing if it's in the possession of a terrified teenager hiding from the armed and dangerous men and about to start dialing Knight Errant for help, a mini-ork with an uzi who's about to start spraying, or a discarded piece of electronic detritus that has yet to be salvaged by a SINless squatter. You could hack it to determine more, or just launch a grenade at the trash can.