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Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (apple @ Dec 24 2013, 10:21 AM) *
You are not forced to use online bonuses just to justify the matrix. Right now, even without online bonuses or combat abilities, the hacker/decker is one of the most powerful and versatile archetypes in SR, as he is able manipulate the entire world, from information brokering/gathering to security system override to delay and spoof alerts and information when the alerts triggers.

If the devs would have wanted to make combat hacking making sense, they should have simply used the systems already working and accepted in SR34 (tacnet, drones, radio communication, online links - every thing was already in place, the devs needed just to add some addition rules or better description of possibilities) and not ditching the old system while introducing something stupid, saying that is stupid, not using it for their own adventures and then wondering why some people would have preferred other systems, because they want to combine matrix with rules making sense.

Enforcing people and the entire world to act stupid just to justify stupid rules which are not liked by the devs either is ... stupid.

If you really want to see how combat hacking while influencing the ingame physical world, check out CP2020. And that was 230 years ago.

SYL


Indeed... "Stupid is as Stupid Does, sir."

CP2020 had a great system for Hacking. The MENU was awesome indeed.
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 24 2013, 09:02 AM) *
A Street Sam would be dumb to expose his cyber to matrix hacking, plain and simple. For him, ignoring that aspect does not hurt him. A HACKER works the matrix. And a HACKER has better things to do than protect his team from Bricking. It does not defeat the purpose of the game world to secure yourself from extraneous hacking attempts. In fact, it is good business to do so. The clusterf#@% of Wireless bonuses and weaponized hacking was just dumb from the get go, and was attempted in SR4. The design team recognized that fact and backed off on it. Unfortunately (and sadly), JH decided he was going to ram that concept down everyone's throat in SR5. So, when I play in SR5, I will ignore Wireless access almost completely, since I see no benefit from it. I will make sure that I have a ZERO Matrix Presence on a run to be sure.

No, it goes against the very philosophy of the genre. If you are a Street Samurai you are more machine than man. What makes you think that someone like a decker, who is by design meant to manipulate machines should not be allowed to hack a Street Sam's gear/cyber? If you are willing to sell your soul to become a machine, then that by definition should leave you vulnerable. Considering that Street Sams get a lot more of everything in SR5 helps reinforce that. They can get more dice than anyone for attacking, dodging, and soaking. And because of that, they should have more vulnerabilities.

And because this isn't a solo game, you should be forced to actually rely on your teammates. There should be synergy between the archetypes. A Decker needs the Street Sam to murder things. The Street Sam needs the Decker to protect his gear. So you can't be a one man invincible army. Boohoo. How I weep for the SR4 homogeneous archetype of everyone being a hacker with some other off skills.
binarywraith
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 24 2013, 12:16 PM) *
No, it goes against the very philosophy of the genre. If you are a Street Samurai you are more machine than man. What makes you think that someone like a decker, who is by design meant to manipulate machines should not be allowed to hack a Street Sam's gear/cyber? If you are willing to sell your soul to become a machine, then that by definition should leave you vulnerable. Considering that Street Sams get a lot more of everything in SR5 helps reinforce that. They can get more dice than anyone for attacking, dodging, and soaking. And because of that, they should have more vulnerabilities.


Because you'd have to be an absolute idiot to sell your soul for tech that can be trivially externally manipulated. Especially when the stuff from five years back had all the same abilities, and -wasn't- easily manipulated. The stuff from ten years before that was even harder to crack.
quentra
Not to mention that the hacker physically cannot provide overwatch for all devices because he hits the master-slave limit real quick. Just think about it - an entire group with cybereyes, smartlinks, bits of miscellaneous gear that may be situational but would be a bitch to deal with if bricked or hacked, comms...and then you throw in everyone's 'ware? You hit the slaving limit a lot fucking earlier than being able to effectively overwatch all of that, not to mention the fucking book-keeping involved in tracking all of that fiddly bullshit.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 24 2013, 11:16 AM) *
No, it goes against the very philosophy of the genre. If you are a Street Samurai you are more machine than man. What makes you think that someone like a decker, who is by design meant to manipulate machines should not be allowed to hack a Street Sam's gear/cyber? If you are willing to sell your soul to become a machine, then that by definition should leave you vulnerable. Considering that Street Sams get a lot more of everything in SR5 helps reinforce that. They can get more dice than anyone for attacking, dodging, and soaking. And because of that, they should have more vulnerabilities.

And because this isn't a solo game, you should be forced to actually rely on your teammates. There should be synergy between the archetypes. A Decker needs the Street Sam to murder things. The Street Sam needs the Decker to protect his gear. So you can't be a one man invincible army. Boohoo. How I weep for the SR4 homogeneous archetype of everyone being a hacker with some other off skills.


And yet... Your entire Rant (and it is a rant) is nothing but opinion. Opinion that not everyone agrees with, even to the extent of some of the developers. *shrug*

NO ONE should NEED the Hacker/Decker to PROTECT HIS OWN GEAR. Making that assumption is entirely ludicrous. Protect their communications? Sure... Protect their Tacnet? No Problem... But protect their Smartlink, Cyber eyes or Wired Reflexes? Absolutely Not...

As for the Philosophy of the Genre - You are not quite correct in that particular assumption, as evidenced by the MANY systems that do not go where SR5 does, including all previous editions of Shadowrun itself. There are a few that do make some of the same assumptions as you do (Ghost in the shell for one), but they are not universal. *shrug*

Not sure where you got that everyone was a Hacker in SR4A. Everyone had the potential to perform some hacking actions, but not everyone was a Hacker, by any stretch of the imagination. Besides, everyone can be a Hacker in SR5, should they be willing to put in the effort. wobble.gif
Medicineman
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 24 2013, 11:02 AM) *
A Street Sam would be dumb to expose his cyber to matrix hacking, plain and simple. For him, ignoring that aspect does not hurt him. A HACKER works the matrix. And a HACKER has better things to do than protect his team from Bricking. It does not defeat the purpose of the game world to secure yourself from extraneous hacking attempts. In fact, it is good business to do so. The clusterf#@% of Wireless bonuses and weaponized hacking was just dumb from the get go, and was attempted in SR4. The design team recognized that fact and backed off on it. Unfortunately (and sadly), JH decided he was going to ram that concept down everyone's throat in SR5. So, when I play in SR5, I will ignore Wireless access almost completely, since I see no benefit from it. I will make sure that I have a ZERO Matrix Presence on a run to be sure.

Another Way of handling it (Since You're allowed to make only one Attack per Iniphase (which is another Rule/concept the Devs are ramming down our throats )) :
Simple Action :turn Wifi on Smartlink on
Simple Action :use Smart-Weapon with WiFi Bonus
Free Action :turn WiFi Off
....Hmmm
If I have a laserpointer, I could do this for a +1WiFiBonus (Remember: a Laserpointer needs free Matrix access to be able to produce the red Dot and thus give the +1 Bonus sarcastic.gif )

or I could :
simple Action Take Aim
Simple Action Shoot Weapon with +1 Bonus
and I would keep my free Action
So actually its disadvantageous to use the "New and improved WiFi Online Bonus" The Devs try to lure into using....

with an On and Off Dance
Medicineman
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Dec 24 2013, 11:48 AM) *
Another Way of handling it (Since You're allowed to make only one Attack per Iniphase (which is another Rule/concept the Devs are ramming down our throats )) :
Simple Action :turn Wifi on Smartlink on
Simple Action :use Smart-Weapon with WiFi Bonus
Free Action :turn WiFi Off

with an On and Off Dance
Medicineman


True...
I just tend to create a character who never NEEDS the Wi-Fi bonuses... Not all that hard, since they are not all that necessary to start with. smile.gif

With an Unnecessary Dance? smile.gif
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (Fatum @ Dec 24 2013, 09:28 AM) *
So? Change channel division, or encoding, or any of the other signal parameters. You'll have noise from the Matrix, but you should be easily able to build a p2p wireless comm system.


All that stuff has already been taken into account in the abstraction of SR5's Matrix. All of that is being handled by your firewall. That's why you use your Firewall to help resist things like snoop, being marked, etc. So you don't need to micromanage to that level anymore, like being forced to have a rating 6 response, so you can have a rating 6 system, so you can have a rating 6 encryption, so you can slow down the hacker, who's not going to be able to do anything anyways, because you have everything skin linked and effectively removed any Matrix threats from the game. Because heaven forbid a core system about an all encumbersome invasive wireless technological information network actually be able to contribute to threats to the game.

QUOTE
Oh woe is me, I'm a hacker who can code his very own milspec exploit software, and throw together cyberdecks to take on any corp host, but I can't close a leak in my firewall!


If you closed that leak in your firewall, then you've effectively made the game unplayable. If you can do it as a player, then so can the NPC's, and now you've effectively made everything hacker proof and have removed the Matrix from the game. Congratulations! Now you have to play a Street Sam, or become awakened.

QUOTE
Please try to keep track. Or are you internationally trying to redirect the discussion? The issue is not whether you can find parts to replace the burned out ones, it's whether you can actually get into the victim's anatomy to do so.


I already covered that. It can safely be assumed that all cyberware has some kind of removable panel somewhere on your person to gain access to the internals. Like Mr. Data from Star Trek. Then you said that everyone is different, so I assumed you meant the cyber must be all tailored made to the person, in which case I was attempting to illustrate cyber is made from mass produced parts, so there must be some standards to this. Does that help clear up the point?

QUOTE
The Big Ten are the ones making those rulings.

And all you need is more of the Big 10 to agree, to make them all have to do it.

QUOTE
Because it's much more expensive, and risks not only the expensive assets, but also PR losses. Oh, and it risks revealing your involvement to the target, prompting counter-moves.

I have to imagine that the PR costs are a fixed cost since they have to pay for news reporters or whatever anyway, even when not trying to spin Shadowruns that have gone bad. I don't know if it'd be more expensive. It might be it might not be. It's a hard call considering its a fictional setting. But counter moves is the reason the CC was created. To prevent the escalation of corporate violence between the corps. Which leads me back to the point, if the CC says so, all corps have to follow it.

QUOTE
No, it doesn't control anything near that. So, what, all the corps suddenly have the money to replace their network infrastructure overnight, plus the public networks, plus the backbone lines? Is the CC paying for that?

Who says they needed to replace any hardware? The new Matrix protocols is pure software, or at least until the Matrix book comes out and says otherwise.

QUOTE
Except modern cards are built with IPv6 support. So it'd be more like switching from TCP/IP to LAT or NetWare on the fly on the cards that support neither - completely unthinkable.
And that's without tackling the issue of moving the actual applications over to a new system that is not backwards compatible.

My knowledge of LAT and Netware is limited, but I can not assume that you cannot run those networking protocols on modern systems because of hardware limitations.
Medicineman
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 24 2013, 01:52 PM) *
True...
I just tend to create a character who never NEEDS the Wi-Fi bonuses... Not all that hard, since they are not all that necessary to start with. smile.gif

With an Unnecessary Dance? smile.gif

No, You're totally right
Its way better not to need the WiFiShip at all
But this whole -- urges me to find a way around the Rules
It's a Kind of Challenge or provocation to find a Rules-legal way to beat the System (with its own stick )

Hokahey
Medicineman
quentra
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 24 2013, 01:54 PM) *
/stuff

If you closed that leak in your firewall, then you've effectively made the game unplayable. If you can do it as a player, then so can the NPC's, and now you've effectively made everything hacker proof and have removed the Matrix from the game. Congratulations! Now you have to play a Street Sam, or become awakened.


So instead of admitting that you can in fact write rules where such a problem is non-existent, your reaction instead is to claim that such an action is impossible?

QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 24 2013, 01:54 PM) *
I already covered that. It can safely be assumed that all cyberware has some kind of removable panel somewhere on your person to gain access to the internals. Like Mr. Data from Star Trek. Then you said that everyone is different, so I assumed you meant the cyber must be all tailored made to the person, in which case I was attempting to illustrate cyber is made from mass produced parts, so there must be some standards to this. Does that help clear up the point?


You can safely assume based on what evidence? I've never seen anything, ever, in Shadowrun cyberware, that stipulated they all had easily accessible interface panels.
apple
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 24 2013, 02:16 PM) *
should not be allowed to hack a Street Sam's gear/cyber?


"Allowed" is a very wrong word this kind of question, because the other side would be "why must the decker swallow bullets and is not allowed to stand 50m in full cover, insivisible to the hacker?". Because, well, violence is a core concept in RPGs and in the cyberpunk genre as well. If you allow the hacker to be in cover and hacking, while not being shot at, then you must allow the samurai to get into full cover against the hacker as well (and not being hacked).

That said: there are plenty of ways to make combat hacking viable and interesting (some of them worked for the last 20 years). There is no need for "I enforce your cyberware to be online just that a combat hacker is viable", there are severeal far more elegant, tested and logic ways to do that.

QUOTE
A Decker needs the Street Sam to murder things.


No, he does not. He just can manipulate the environment or drones to do that. A mage does not need a sam either, he can use spells and spirits for that. It is only the street sam who needs magical and/or hacking protection - when it comes to SR he is perhaps the archetype who can be replaced most easily, as "combat" can be solved by several other things (sometimes better, sometimes worse). So no, to be halfway effective he should need to have a hacker on protection duty. He should need a hacker to complete the team for hacking purposes. For the rest there are tacnets, drones, radio communication and/or online links with DNI control (just as a hint how it could have been solved without the shitstorm and devs who think that their own rules are stupid).

SYL
Fatum
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 24 2013, 10:16 PM) *
No, it goes against the very philosophy of the genre. If you are a Street Samurai you are more machine than man. What makes you think that someone like a decker, who is by design meant to manipulate machines should not be allowed to hack a Street Sam's gear/cyber? If you are willing to sell your soul to become a machine, then that by definition should leave you vulnerable. Considering that Street Sams get a lot more of everything in SR5 helps reinforce that. They can get more dice than anyone for attacking, dodging, and soaking. And because of that, they should have more vulnerabilities.
Awakening should make you hackable, by that logic.
apple
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 24 2013, 02:54 PM) *
Who says they needed to replace any hardware?


Then of course my next question would be: why can´t I use my old equipment? You know the thing which run on old protocols which I never updated. Perhaps I have a hacker friend who wrote the programs himself? Well, a link needs to update to connect to the new matrix or at least a converter software. But why exactly went my DNI controled airtank dark in my own nerve system and out of nowwhere I received an email asking me to go online with an update to check out my air status?

Again, I advise you the check out some of the other editions and games just to see how combat hacking was done there. 20 years ago. Tested and approved (and in some cases even well beloved without hurting your fragile logic centre in your brain).

SYL
Glyph
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 24 2013, 11:16 AM) *
No, it goes against the very philosophy of the genre. If you are a Street Samurai you are more machine than man. What makes you think that someone like a decker, who is by design meant to manipulate machines should not be allowed to hack a Street Sam's gear/cyber? If you are willing to sell your soul to become a machine, then that by definition should leave you vulnerable. Considering that Street Sams get a lot more of everything in SR5 helps reinforce that. They can get more dice than anyone for attacking, dodging, and soaking. And because of that, they should have more vulnerabilities.

The trouble with that as a justification of wireless hacking is that you can still turn it off, even if you are more machine than man. Your smartlink may not work as well, and your wired reflexes may not be able to work in conjunction with your reaction enhancers, but otherwise you are fine. The biggest problem with wireless bonuses is their implementation - either have a few pieces of gear nerfed, or be vulnerable to hacking. Hacking would have been so much better if they had expanded rules for tactical networks, remote-controlled drones, and security communications - things that make sense being wireless.
Fatum
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 24 2013, 10:54 PM) *
All that stuff has already been taken into account in the abstraction of SR5's Matrix. All of that is being handled by your firewall.
So, my firewall prevents the devices in my PAN from interacting with each other without a Matrix uplink? Is it cutting tight-beam communications and wired connections, too? It's a bit too fire- for my liking, if such.

QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 24 2013, 10:54 PM) *
If you closed that leak in your firewall, then you've effectively made the game unplayable. If you can do it as a player, then so can the NPC's, and now you've effectively made everything hacker proof and have removed the Matrix from the game. Congratulations! Now you have to play a Street Sam, or become awakened.
Please try to keep track; I am my suggestion of plugging a leak is related to stopping your gear from ratting you out to GOD, as you suggested. The NPCs plugging it will change exactly nothing for a hacker.

QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 24 2013, 10:54 PM) *
I already covered that. It can safely be assumed that all cyberware has some kind of removable panel somewhere on your person to gain access to the internals.
For the fourth Marxist time, that'd require access panels across your body for invasive implants like wired reflexes. This is simply not realistic.

QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 24 2013, 10:54 PM) *
And all you need is more of the Big 10 to agree, to make them all have to do it.
Sure, except not a single sane mega would agree to having others' operatives in its network with elevated rights.

QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 24 2013, 10:54 PM) *
I have to imagine that the PR costs are a fixed cost since they have to pay for news reporters or whatever anyway, even when not trying to spin Shadowruns that have gone bad. I don't know if it'd be more expensive. It might be it might not be. It's a hard call considering its a fictional setting. But counter moves is the reason the CC was created. To prevent the escalation of corporate violence between the corps. Which leads me back to the point, if the CC says so, all corps have to follow it.
You seem to completely misunderstand the purpose and authority of the CC. It's a gentleman's club; it wields no power of its own - only as much as megas invest into it. And while yeah, it can interfere to stop a full-scale corporate war, those are not anywhere near common for a caught operative that can be traced to the source. Not for fear of the CC, but for the good old fear of escalation given mutual assured destruction.

QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 24 2013, 10:54 PM) *
Who says they needed to replace any hardware? The new Matrix protocols is pure software, or at least until the Matrix book comes out and says otherwise.
Why aren't they pure magic, while you're at inventing far-fetched excuses for CGL bullshit?

QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 24 2013, 10:54 PM) *
My knowledge of LAT and Netware is limited, but I can not assume that you cannot run those networking protocols on modern systems because of hardware limitations.
You can by now; there are however a few cases of hardware still being incompatible, despite years-long usage. Such as wifi.letters, for instance. EDGE and LTE - oh, here's a good example for your wireless. Why don't you update your LTE-incompatible cellphone into compatibility?
Dolanar
Hmm, going around the WiFi thing...an agent running whose sole role is to turn all WiFi signals off? Perhaps a free action to turn on, shoot, then the agent turns it all off again?
apple
QUOTE (Fatum @ Dec 24 2013, 03:38 PM) *
Sure, except not a single sane mega would agree to having others' operatives in its network with elevated rights.


It would be a little bit like "during the cold war in the 1960s the USA and the Soviet-union exchanged a nuclear missle silo because the UN said so". That would surely work. Both the POTUS and the general secretary would love that, I am sure of that.

SYL
Dolanar
Doubled bleh
binarywraith
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 24 2013, 12:52 PM) *
True...
I just tend to create a character who never NEEDS the Wi-Fi bonuses... Not all that hard, since they are not all that necessary to start with. smile.gif

With an Unnecessary Dance? smile.gif


Part of why my Missions character to test the rules with is my cowboy adept. No school like the old school when it comes to pistols. biggrin.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Dec 24 2013, 02:14 PM) *
Part of why my Missions character to test the rules with is my cowboy adept. No school like the old school when it comes to pistols. biggrin.gif


Indeed... smile.gif
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (quentra @ Dec 24 2013, 12:14 PM) *
So instead of admitting that you can in fact write rules where such a problem is non-existent, your reaction instead is to claim that such an action is impossible?


Fine. What are these theoretical rules you are speaking of?

QUOTE
You can safely assume based on what evidence? I've never seen anything, ever, in Shadowrun cyberware, that stipulated they all had easily accessible interface panels.

The cover of Shadowtech maybe?

Or I guess, if you want, you can go under the knife everytime you're cyberware is bricked. You can either make the game playable and consistent in logic, or you can choose to make it unplayable and still consistent with logic. Your call.
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (apple @ Dec 24 2013, 12:20 PM) *
He should need a hacker to complete the team for hacking purposes. For the rest there are tacnets, drones, radio communication and/or online links with DNI control (just as a hint how it could have been solved without the shitstorm and devs who think that their own rules are stupid).

SYL

And to be fair, you can still do ALL of those things still. All, but tacnets, but that's only because the rules aren't there yet. Spoof can send false and confusing messages, and also send false commands to drones. You can also remote control drones, or even jump in if you have an VCR. You can snoop wireless communications. You can still edit camera feeds. You can still do ALL of that same things, which I do admit is really cool, and very much something for hackers to do. But now you also get the option to make devices fail. Why would you be against having more options?

The idea of the cyber cowboy, and actually making cybercombat useful is a GREAT thing. Honestly, cybercombat was completely useless in SR4. It was always better to just go and finish your hack and jack out then it was to stay and fight the IC or spider.
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (Fatum @ Dec 24 2013, 12:24 PM) *
Awakening should make you hackable, by that logic.

Then it'd defeat the point of having the Matrix and Magic be two different systems with opposed philosophies. The idea is that Matrix effects, meat and tech. While Magic effects the astral and meat. Magic is emotions and life, and the Matrix is cold calculating machines.
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (apple @ Dec 24 2013, 12:26 PM) *
Then of course my next question would be: why can´t I use my old equipment? You know the thing which run on old protocols which I never updated. Perhaps I have a hacker friend who wrote the programs himself? Well, a link needs to update to connect to the new matrix or at least a converter software. But why exactly went my DNI controled airtank dark in my own nerve system and out of nowwhere I received an email asking me to go online with an update to check out my air status?

Again, I advise you the check out some of the other editions and games just to see how combat hacking was done there. 20 years ago. Tested and approved (and in some cases even well beloved without hurting your fragile logic centre in your brain).

SYL

You probably can, but it won't work with the new Matrix. And such devices would be so rare that they wouldn't be covered by the rules. That'd be a pretty edge case, so it'd require houseruling.
Koekepan
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 25 2013, 01:50 AM) *
You probably can, but it won't work with the new Matrix. And such devices would be so rare that they wouldn't be covered by the rules. That'd be a pretty edge case, so it'd require houseruling.


This would be awesome.

My first character under this ruleset is going to be a cyberdoc/technician. Shadowruns? Hah. He's going to use those wonderful knowledge and technical skills to build cybernetic lungs which are not vulnerable to Matrix crap, nor reliant upon it to function.

He's going to accept cash money in advance, because anyone who doesn't have it in hand when they show up can go to the back of the line.

And he will be rich. Every street sammy and infiltrator is going to come to him, and they will be polite. They will say yes, sir, and they will say no, sir. They will band together to annihilate any slot stupid enough to look funny at him.

King of the streets, all because the major manufacturers paid no attention to their customers. Life is sweet!
Fatum
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 25 2013, 03:48 AM) *
Then it'd defeat the point of having the Matrix and Magic be two different systems with opposed philosophies. The idea is that Matrix effects, meat and tech. While Magic effects the astral and meat. Magic is emotions and life, and the Matrix is cold calculating machines.
You are claiming that sammies should be paying for their extra abilities (by being hackable).
Why shouldn't the Awakened?
What does Matrix have to do with that need?
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (Fatum @ Dec 24 2013, 12:38 PM) *
So, my firewall prevents the devices in my PAN from interacting with each other without a Matrix uplink? Is it cutting tight-beam communications and wired connections, too? It's a bit too fire- for my liking, if such.


That's possible. Maybe the firewall is also accessing cloud resources to ensure your anti-virus or whatever is working. And interesting idea I had not considered.

QUOTE
Please try to keep track; I am my suggestion of plugging a leak is related to stopping your gear from ratting you out to GOD, as you suggested. The NPCs plugging it will change exactly nothing for a hacker.

I don't understand what you're arguing for then. Please elaborate.

QUOTE
For the fourth Marxist time, that'd require access panels across your body for invasive implants like wired reflexes. This is simply not realistic.

In what way is it unrealistic? You have two ways to solve repairing bricked cyber. One is that you can either have access panels to repair the damage, or you have to go under the knife every time you need some repaired. They both sound playable, but one sounds like its much easier to deal with than the other, and cheaper

QUOTE
Sure, except not a single sane mega would agree to having others' operatives in its network with elevated rights.

Well, I guess its a good thing that they have their own G-men to do the upgrades for them.

QUOTE
You seem to completely misunderstand the purpose and authority of the CC. It's a gentleman's club; it wields no power of its own - only as much as megas invest into it. And while yeah, it can interfere to stop a full-scale corporate war, those are not anywhere near common for a caught operative that can be traced to the source. Not for fear of the CC, but for the good old fear of escalation given mutual assured destruction.

The CC's role is to ensure that the status quo remains. Why do you think Art Dankwalther got a rod from God? I recall Aztechnology also being threaten with a thor shot too, for all their blood magic fiasco. So if they say out with the old Matrix, and in with the new. They pretty much can.

QUOTE
Why aren't they pure magic, while you're at inventing far-fetched excuses for CGL bullshit?

What is so hard to believe about a new wireless protocol being software driven? Do you honestly think that the general CPU will be completely replaced with specialized CPUs? With general CPUs becoming more and more powerful, things like dedicated GPUs or sound cards or whatever, are going the way of the dinosaurs. While it's true that dedicated hardware will usually outperform a general CPU, it is not a leap of logic to assume that a general CPU can handle, on its own, the routing and network functions of a dedicated device.

QUOTE
You can by now; there are however a few cases of hardware still being incompatible, despite years-long usage. Such as wifi.letters, for instance. EDGE and LTE - oh, here's a good example for your wireless. Why don't you update your LTE-incompatible cellphone into compatibility?

While cellphones are a pretty good analogy for commlinks, you know they're more than just a smartphone. I am not an expert at the true differences between, LTE, Wifi, Bluetooth, WiMAX, etc etc, but lets assume that pretty much the entire long wavelengths electromagnetic spectrum, that being microwaves and radio waves, are all incorporated into the Matrix. So we can assume that all commlinks have the hardware to send and receive these signals as packets. So now the difference is how each device interprets the packets. If the New Matrix sees an old packet, it'll just ignore it. If it sees a new packet, it will read it for itself, or send it along to the next device. Is that a leap of logic?
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (Fatum @ Dec 24 2013, 05:13 PM) *
You are claiming that sammies should be paying for their extra abilities (by being hackable).
Why shouldn't the Awakened?
What does Matrix have to do with that need?

The awaken do pay for that. Astrally perceiving or even having an active foci opens themselves up to astral threats. Wards are more problematic for them too, as it deactivates foci and sustain spells. Like wise, ware reduces their magic, which hits them harder than a mundane would be, and also opens themselves up to the Matrix.
Koekepan
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 25 2013, 02:27 AM) *
In what way is it unrealistic? You have two ways to solve repairing bricked cyber. One is that you can either have access panels to repair the damage, or you have to go under the knife every time you need some repaired. They both sound playable, but one sounds like its much easier to deal with than the other, and cheaper


I have a better idea: come to Doctor Workgood, the cyberdoc who makes it right! Never worry about being bricked again, it'll work right first time, every time. Strictly cash in advance.

QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 25 2013, 02:27 AM) *
What is so hard to believe about a new wireless protocol being software driven? Do you honestly think that the general CPU will be completely replaced with specialized CPUs? With general CPUs becoming more and more powerful, things like dedicated GPUs or sound cards or whatever, are going the way of the dinosaurs. While it's true that dedicated hardware will usually outperform a general CPU, it is not a leap of logic to assume that a general CPU can handle, on its own, the routing and network functions of a dedicated device.


Wow, OK, so I have to jump in here. First off: what you are describing is one half of a cycle of hardware functions being decentralised and recentralised, a process which has happened multiple times in the past and which will undoubtedly happen again. That said, if you want to have something which is going to perform a single, dedicated purpose, in a single, dedicated way, then it turns out to be faster, cheaper and more efficient to do it with dedicated hardware. Why buy the whole computer when all you need is a dedicated device? Why deal with all the crap of a computer's support needs when you can have a set-and-forget dedicated device? There is your reason - maintenance and running costs. Ten bucks a year sounds like nothing - until you multiply it by ten thousand. Suddenly, it's real money.

On the other hand, if you want a generalised CPU to be constantly engaged with all the bandwidth you can possibly cram down it, alongside all its buses, with no acceleration hardware available, you'll be producing a system much less powerful than it should be, net. This is why serious machines today, in the real world, have things like accelerator cards, protocol-aware cards, and we're not even talking about all the fancy stuff you can plug into an actual mainframe.

Seriously, before you make those arguments, look at the reality of the situation. To put it another way, if Renraku came up with a do-it-all-in-software commlink which is cheap! Easy! And fast! Horizon would come up with one with a couple of accelerator chips added, and it would be almost as cheap! Easier! And so very much faster! Because dedicate hardware is more efficient for excellent reasons, and good to mass produce.

QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 25 2013, 02:27 AM) *
While cellphones are a pretty good analogy for commlinks, you know they're more than just a smartphone. I am not an expert at the true differences between, LTE, Wifi, Bluetooth, WiMAX, etc etc, but lets assume that pretty much the entire long wavelengths electromagnetic spectrum, that being microwaves and radio waves, are all incorporated into the Matrix. So we can assume that all commlinks have the hardware to send and receive these signals as packets. So now the difference is how each device interprets the packets. If the New Matrix sees an old packet, it'll just ignore it. If it sees a new packet, it will read it for itself, or send it along to the next device. Is that a leap of logic?


Even better plan: I shall now use Old Matrix and I shall be unhackable because everything ignores what I use! DeathStrobe, maybe this wasn't your plan, but I'm starting to look at SR5 as the Land of Opportunity! This is going to be so awesome, I'm hyperventilating while I sit here.
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (Koekepan @ Dec 24 2013, 05:49 PM) *
I have a better idea: come to Doctor Workgood, the cyberdoc who makes it right! Never worry about being bricked again, it'll work right first time, every time. Strictly cash in advance.

Mechanically, that's what throwbacks are for.


QUOTE
Wow, OK, so I have to jump in here. First off: what you are describing is one half of a cycle of hardware functions being decentralised and recentralised, a process which has happened multiple times in the past and which will undoubtedly happen again. That said, if you want to have something which is going to perform a single, dedicated purpose, in a single, dedicated way, then it turns out to be faster, cheaper and more efficient to do it with dedicated hardware. Why buy the whole computer when all you need is a dedicated device? Why deal with all the crap of a computer's support needs when you can have a set-and-forget dedicated device? There is your reason - maintenance and running costs. Ten bucks a year sounds like nothing - until you multiply it by ten thousand. Suddenly, it's real money.

On the other hand, if you want a generalised CPU to be constantly engaged with all the bandwidth you can possibly cram down it, alongside all its buses, with no acceleration hardware available, you'll be producing a system much less powerful than it should be, net. This is why serious machines today, in the real world, have things like accelerator cards, protocol-aware cards, and we're not even talking about all the fancy stuff you can plug into an actual mainframe.

Seriously, before you make those arguments, look at the reality of the situation. To put it another way, if Renraku came up with a do-it-all-in-software commlink which is cheap! Easy! And fast! Horizon would come up with one with a couple of accelerator chips added, and it would be almost as cheap! Easier! And so very much faster! Because dedicate hardware is more efficient for excellent reasons, and good to mass produce.

This is the future. There probably is little to no difference between dedicated and general CPUs. Its not like this is something that I came up from nowhere.

QUOTE
Even better plan: I shall now use Old Matrix and I shall be unhackable because everything ignores what I use! DeathStrobe, maybe this wasn't your plan, but I'm starting to look at SR5 as the Land of Opportunity! This is going to be so awesome, I'm hyperventilating while I sit here.

Well, there are a few problems off the top of my head. You can't hack anything or communicate with anything. Software degrades over time, so all programs will become useless after some point in time.
Koekepan
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 25 2013, 04:38 AM) *
This is the future. There probably is little to no difference between dedicated and general CPUs. Its not like this is something that I came up from nowhere.


It doesn't matter if they're exactly the identical same chips coming off the exact same identical line in the exact same identical batch. Not at all. It's the purpose to which they're put - and actually in many cases while the central chip doing much of the heavy lifting in, say, a router, is not that different from a chip in a server, there is no reason to believe that it mightn't be cheaper to use a dedicated chip to do protocol conversions. But even if they are identical, if the cost of the chip is a nuyen or two including the packaging, why on earth wouldn't you have circuitry dedicated to different tasks running in parallel, in a dedicated fashion? It's a cinch that the market would go for it at all levels except the very lowest end. However, just the fact that the chips are the same doesn't mean that the electronics are - in fact, in a dedicated unit they certainly wouldn't be. Software-based networking? Maybe, but at the very least you're looking at a huge upgrade worldwide on a timeline it would be generous to call tight.

Moreover, if you want your system to be resistant to interference (like any good megacorp) then you're sure as hell not going to want it to be easily rewritten. You want it to keep doing exactly what you told it to do until you, and nobody else, tells it different. That means that your systems modifications (whatever form they take) will hinge on a hardware switch, or at the very least presentation of credentials (probably quorum-based) which render the rewrite intelligible.

If all it takes to change The Entire Matrix™ is a few hours and a global patch, then no wonder shadowrunners run roughshod over it all.

QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Dec 25 2013, 04:38 AM) *
Well, there are a few problems off the top of my head. You can't hack anything or communicate with anything. Software degrades over time, so all programs will become useless after some point in time.


Software only degrades if the media on which it is stored degrades. Otherwise it continues working just fine if the running environment does. This is why there are so many pieces of software which were written in the 1960s which are still running in banks and utilities today, fifty years later. COBOL, FORTRAN, ALGOL, you name it. They're around. If all you want is one piece of dedicated hardware to keep doing its dedicated thing, and you don't want it communicating with the Matrix or vice versa, just make sure you have it backed up and you're ready to rock. You can tell the opposing team's decker by his expression of frustration, and shoot him last because he poses no immediate threat.
Redjack
QUOTE (Koekepan @ Dec 24 2013, 09:19 PM) *
it continues working just fine if the running environment does.
An "understatement" does not begin to properly frame your response. The more integrated the environment becomes, the more these antiquated systems become the critical failure point or inconsequential. ergo: Their ability to be a functional component of the environment degrades into obsolescence.
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (Koekepan @ Dec 24 2013, 08:19 PM) *
It doesn't matter if they're exactly the identical same chips coming off the exact same identical line in the exact same identical batch. Not at all. It's the purpose to which they're put - and actually in many cases while the central chip doing much of the heavy lifting in, say, a router, is not that different from a chip in a server, there is no reason to believe that it mightn't be cheaper to use a dedicated chip to do protocol conversions. But even if they are identical, if the cost of the chip is a nuyen or two including the packaging, why on earth wouldn't you have circuitry dedicated to different tasks running in parallel, in a dedicated fashion? It's a cinch that the market would go for it at all levels except the very lowest end. However, just the fact that the chips are the same doesn't mean that the electronics are - in fact, in a dedicated unit they certainly wouldn't be. Software-based networking? Maybe, but at the very least you're looking at a huge upgrade worldwide on a timeline it would be generous to call tight.

Moreover, if you want your system to be resistant to interference (like any good megacorp) then you're sure as hell not going to want it to be easily rewritten. You want it to keep doing exactly what you told it to do until you, and nobody else, tells it different. That means that your systems modifications (whatever form they take) will hinge on a hardware switch, or at the very least presentation of credentials (probably quorum-based) which render the rewrite intelligible.

If all it takes to change The Entire Matrix™ is a few hours and a global patch, then no wonder shadowrunners run roughshod over it all.

Fine, then it wasn't a software update. It was a very expensive hardware update that gets us to the same point in SR5. I prefer my interpretation, that all CPUs have become general and that the protocols can be updated with software. But if you want the Corp to spend XXX-nuyen on the upgrade. That seems less possible, but makes sense.

QUOTE
Software only degrades if the media on which it is stored degrades. Otherwise it continues working just fine if the running environment does. This is why there are so many pieces of software which were written in the 1960s which are still running in banks and utilities today, fifty years later. COBOL, FORTRAN, ALGOL, you name it. They're around. If all you want is one piece of dedicated hardware to keep doing its dedicated thing, and you don't want it communicating with the Matrix or vice versa, just make sure you have it backed up and you're ready to rock. You can tell the opposing team's decker by his expression of frustration, and shoot him last because he poses no immediate threat.

That is not what I meant. The degrading isn't actually that the software stops working, but that it looks worse and worse each year because new software comes out to make the old stuff look obsolete. I think the rules for it where in Unwired.
Koekepan
QUOTE (Redjack @ Dec 25 2013, 05:45 AM) *
An "understatement" does not begin to properly frame your response. The more integrated the environment becomes, the more these antiquated systems become the critical failure point or inconsequential. ergo: Their ability to be a functional component of the environment degrades into obsolescence.



That's the entire point. If you don't want something interacting with your environment, that's a definite advantage. Granted, it may constitute security by obscurity, but if there's no equipment in your target corporate office which will interact with your functional equipment, then they have no way of exploiting it short of physical removal or destruction. That's a hell of a boost in a world where an opposing decker would expect to otherwise brick, disable or exploit the samurai's equipment.
Redjack
QUOTE (Koekepan @ Dec 24 2013, 10:15 PM) *
That's the entire point.
I'm sorry, but you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how integrated environments are, even in 2013, let alone in the 2070's and how those much of a vulnerability those antiquated systems are; I must disagree with you.
Koekepan
QUOTE (Redjack @ Dec 25 2013, 06:57 AM) *
I'm sorry, but you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how integrated environments are, even in 2013, let alone in the 2070's and how those much of a vulnerability those antiquated systems are; I must disagree with you.



OK, I'll bite:

please explain precisely how a system which is protocol incompatible with another system can be turned on a dime so as to be used to exploit the other system.

In fact, let's make this example specific and concrete so that you can point out exactly where my argument falls down.

System A (the one you want to attack): a Nokia N770 with its wireless (including bluetooth) turned off, using maemo, on which I'm running scripts which take periodic pictures of my environment, do a pattern-match, and ditch the ones I don't want to keep. If it recognises a pattern I care about, it ... let's say it generates a tone. That's my combat warning system for whatever it is I care about. Maybe a face. Maybe some text. Doesn't really matter.

System B (your tool of choice): an iphone 5, tricked out with the latest iOS, and all its wireless turned on like a christmas tree.

My contention: under combat conditions, in the timespace available during a typical shadowrun combat engagement (what the hell, let's be generous and call it ten minutes), your iphone will not serve as a functional vehicle for a software-based exploit permitting you take control of system A, subvert the function of system A, interrupt the function of system A, or otherwise prevent system A from performing the service for which I intend to use it. The fact that my System A isn't the new hotness with respect to connecting to the corporate wireless system where I'm infiltrating is entirely irrelevant as long as it is doing what I want it to do. The notion that these environments are somehow "integrated" may be true. I'm not sure how, but I'm sure you will shortly explain it.

In fact, I'd go further and point out that if you have a device built to use 1900 MHz, and I'm using a device operating at 810 MHz, it really doesn't matter if they are otherwise as identical as two peas in a pod - you need to do serious changes to yours to even have an operational data connection to mine, let alone a meaningful software exploit. Under combat conditions you have no easy way in. If your system is programmed to use time division multiplexing, and mine is frequency division, you have another hill to climb. If your system sends data in big-endian order, and mine is little-endian, you have yet another hill to climb. Compatibility is a big deal in real world planning and purchasing decisions because overcoming incompatibilities is a monumental pain in the butt on hardware as well as software levels. Even something as simple, allowing for identical networking behaviours, as incorrect assumptions on buffer size affecting packet length can monumentally screw things up - not speculation, this is real world observation. Details matter, which is why network administrators have jobs. And project managers. This is why "system integrator" is a job description which generally goes paired with a six figure salary offer.

But I await your explanation with bated breath. System B owns System A in ten minutes under combat conditions. How?
Redjack
QUOTE (Koekepan @ Dec 24 2013, 11:42 PM) *
But I await your explanation with bated breath.
You start with conversations about COBOL systems running banks, but then want an use case with cell phones. How in the world did you get from A to B in that conversation? Phones using outdated/unsupported spectrum cannot even be considered "in the environment" or relevant to the conversation and it definitely doesn't make them secure. It makes them worthless.

In combat in Shadowrun, only you propose your team communicating with radios or iPhones. While your opposition is using state of the art communication and surveillance gear your team will be relying solely on their sniper and squelching the mic on a radio to pass information. Your opposition using drones, tacnets and continual communication will thwart your attempts.

I get that you have some level of expertise in cell phones and related technologies, but tone down the arrogance and talk to us rather than down to us.
Koekepan
QUOTE (Redjack @ Dec 25 2013, 02:59 PM) *
I get that you have some level of expertise in cell phones and related technologies, but tone down the arrogance and talk to us rather than down to us.


OK, here's the set of principles I'm trying to make clear:

  • As long as it works for what I need it to do, the technological family, or generation, or functional principle does not have to be the latest and greatest. It can even be improvised and as long as it works, that's what matters. A rifle chambered in .45-70 Government is no less lethal just because Custer's men used that cartridge, and a .22WMR is no more lethal for having been designed after WWII.
  • The corollary is that if I get something useful and functional from a commlink which happens to be fundamentally incompatible with everything around me, it is no less functional within the scope of the needs which it satisfies, and in fact its resistance to exploitation can be an actual feature, rather than a bug, even if it was on the market in 2065 rather than 2075.


Here's an example: I have a PDA so old that it has no wireless capability at all. None. Not even a tiny bit. I can put information on it which could be of great value, such as instructions for repairing something, notes on animal husbandry, directions to a friend's house. The fact that some dweeb with more time on his hands than common sense can't connect to it wirelessly and turn it into a cornucopia of lies, pornography, or pornographic lies suits me just fine.
Redjack
QUOTE (Koekepan @ Dec 25 2013, 12:23 PM) *
Here's an example: I have a PDA so old that it has no wireless capability at all. None. Not even a tiny bit. I can put information on it which could be of great value, such as instructions for repairing something, notes on animal husbandry, directions to a friend's house. The fact that some dweeb with more time on his hands than common sense can't connect to it wirelessly and turn it into a cornucopia of lies, pornography, or pornographic lies suits me just fine.
A Tavor has so many engineering benefits in it that, as a tactical weapon, you can't simply dismiss it over an Uzi. At the same time, your lack of wireless and current technology (in game) makes it impossible for you to interact with AR, get pay data off target systems, utilize & benefit from a tacnet, receive video feeds from various recon/surveillance inputs, etc. I get that you want to minimize the threat vector to your team from a wireless threat. I just think that the complete nullification path you have selected makes your team ineffective outside of the barrens or any company able to afford reasonably current counter-infiltration security. It also removes any data steals from your team's list of operations.

Don't get me wrong. I'm totally opposed to what appears to be the SR5 connect everything to the matrix and pray mind-set, but unless I'm missing something, your recommendations are the exact opposite.
Nath
You do realize that both of you can find an unlimited amount of real-life examples that will "prove" you right?

Whatever the item is, utility is only a fraction of performance, that only very rarely get close to 1:1. That fraction depends on goals, skills, and circumstances. The corollary is that performance can increase without increasing utility. Despite what the ads may tell you.

If I use a gun to shot door-to-door salesmen by surprise when I open my door, the Tavor is marginally better than the Uzi. If I use to a gun to fight heavily armed insurgents at intermediate range in a dense urban environment, it is a lot better. If I use cellphone to receive videos and perform pattern recognition on them, the latest smartphone is way better than than the one I bought last year. If I use it to send text message, it does me no good.

As far as we know, the Fifth Matrix did not come with a breakthrough in tactical communications or cyberware augmentations. It's just a security update that closed some gaps, and opened others. Security and reliability upgrade increase performance over time, by increasing uptime. But such performance "increase" will often only be assessed as an average over time. It doesn't not guarantee it will not fail you at the worst moment, or actually be more prone to failure the way you use it (like, say, using a smartphone to coordinate firefight against security units with electronic warfare capabilities, rather than simply uploading party videos).
Koekepan
OK, I really think you aren't getting my meaning, so I'll break this down by sentences.

QUOTE (Redjack @ Dec 26 2013, 02:09 AM) *
A Tavor has so many engineering benefits in it that, as a tactical weapon, you can't simply dismiss it over an Uzi.


False analogy. I'm not talking about Tavor vs Uzi. I'm not even talking about smartlinked Tavor vs unlinked Tavor. I'm talking about Tavor linked wireless, vs Tavor linked wired and shielded. See? One affords remote access, the other does not. The one operates in a necessarily electronically vulnerable state while the other does not.

QUOTE (Redjack @ Dec 26 2013, 02:09 AM) *
At the same time, your lack of wireless and current technology (in game) makes it impossible for you to interact with AR, get pay data off target systems, utilize & benefit from a tacnet, receive video feeds from various recon/surveillance inputs, etc.


  • No, AR works fine, it just isn't talking to wireless sources. Your AR will still show you how many bullets you have left, where your anticipated impact point is, where your sonic analysis locates enemies and where your DR inertial/visual analysis location system puts you on your map overlay.
  • Communicating with target systems can do fine, just not wirelessly - worst case use a shielded hood over your aerial, and slip it over the target system's aerial, or alternatively tap a physical line.
  • Use a tacnet - granted, if you don't have strictly directional non-Matrix communications enabled. But there's no real reason you couldn't.
  • Of course you can receive data - just not in Matrix form. If you're passively receiving it, so much the better. Depending on the source and the circumstances a direct optical feed might suit you just fine.


Do all these things mean that you maybe have to work a little harder? Use your technical skills to get what you want instead of what someone else wants you to have? Sure. So you put some points in technical competence rather than another die of asskickfu. Big deal.

QUOTE (Redjack @ Dec 26 2013, 02:09 AM) *
I get that you want to minimize the threat vector to your team from a wireless threat.


True.

QUOTE (Redjack @ Dec 26 2013, 02:09 AM) *
I just think that the complete nullification path you have selected makes your team ineffective outside of the barrens or any company able to afford reasonably current counter-infiltration security.


Ineffective? I strongly doubt it. Marginally less effective in corner cases where there's no meaningful electronic opposition? Arguably, but please note from the above that most of the advantages can be substituted with a little work. More effective when the opposition doesn't expect my team to have no Matrix vulnerabilities, or consequently underestimates the facilities which are at their disposal? Definitely.

QUOTE (Redjack @ Dec 26 2013, 02:09 AM) *
It also removes any data steals from your team's list of operations.


It does no such thing. Scenario: two teams of two. Sammie Samurai and Alex Adept handle cover and maybe distraction, while Isaac Infiltrator and Devlin Decker cozy up to an aerial on a wirelessly connected data library (details insignificant in this context). Both teams are in operational electronic silence. Devlin unscrews the aerial, and pops on a matching connector which leads to a shielded cable which acts as a waveguide. Now he's not broadcasting anything, but has direct signal access to the target machine - and has just disabled that machine's ability to squawk to the rest of the world. Fifteen seconds of electronic rape later, both teams evac. Done.

QUOTE (Redjack @ Dec 26 2013, 02:09 AM) *
Don't get me wrong. I'm totally opposed to what appears to be the SR5 connect everything to the matrix and pray mind-set, but unless I'm missing something, your recommendations are the exact opposite.


I think you missed a lot. See above.
Redjack
QUOTE (Koekepan @ Dec 25 2013, 06:49 PM) *
False analogy. I'm not talking about Tavor vs Uzi. I'm not even talking about smartlinked Tavor vs unlinked Tavor. I'm talking about Tavor linked wireless, vs Tavor linked wired and shielded. See? One affords remote access, the other does not. The one operates in a necessarily electronically vulnerable state while the other does not.



QUOTE (Koekepan @ Dec 25 2013, 12:23 PM) *
  • As long as it works for what I need it to do, the technological family, or generation, or functional principle does not have to be the latest and greatest. It can even be improvised and as long as it works, that's what matters. A rifle chambered in .45-70 Government is no less lethal just because Custer's men used that cartridge, and a .22WMR is no more lethal for having been designed after WWII.
  • The corollary is that if I get something useful and functional from a commlink which happens to be fundamentally incompatible with everything around me, it is no less functional within the scope of the needs which it satisfies, and in fact its resistance to exploitation can be an actual feature, rather than a bug, even if it was on the market in 2065 rather than 2075.


You are extremely frustrating to have a conversation with when you contradict yourself. You present firearms technology to support your position in one post. I present an argument that debunks your position and you then take off and take my argument completely out of context.
Redjack
QUOTE (Koekepan @ Dec 25 2013, 06:49 PM) *
[*]No, AR works fine, it just isn't talking to wireless sources. Your AR will still show you how many bullets you have left, where your anticipated impact point is, where your sonic analysis locates enemies and where your DR inertial/visual analysis location system puts you on your map overlay.
Actually it doesn't: You just reduced AR to nothing more than a face HUD rather than a rich interactive, layered, immersive technology.

QUOTE (Koekepan @ Dec 25 2013, 06:49 PM) *
[*]Use a tacnet - granted, if you don't have strictly directional non-Matrix communications enabled. But there's no real reason you couldn't.
If you are not sharing data between a certain number of tacnet members (surely you're not running optic cables between each of you) this just doesn't work... and I know you're not suggesting that... Or, if you are, I think you need to reread what a tacnet is.

QUOTE (Koekepan @ Dec 25 2013, 06:49 PM) *
[*]Communicating with target systems can do fine, just not wirelessly - worst case use a shielded hood over your aerial, and slip it over the target system's aerial, or alternatively tap a physical line.
Oh come on. You're just messing now and have given up on a conversation.
DWC
Don't forget that Shadowrun's mechanics don't actually allow you to use radio communication that doesn't go through the matrix. Evidently, when the new matrix was deployed, all the shadowrunners and the military threw away all their old, reliable technology to embrace the inherently insecure new system.
Redjack
QUOTE (DWC @ Dec 25 2013, 07:31 PM) *
Don't forget that Shadowrun's mechanics don't actually allow you to use radio communication that doesn't go through the matrix. Evidently, when the new matrix was deployed, all the shadowrunners and the military threw away all their old, reliable technology to embrace the inherently insecure new system.
Not to be argumentative, but I disagree with that. I would submit that matrix technologies give you things you cannot get from radio alone. I would submit that mutual signal range is an expression in the rules of blending radio communications + matrix technologies, that do not go "through the matrix", per say.
qis
If I had a player so paranoid that he would disconnect from the matrix entirely, I'd set the following restrictions:
  • He has no access to external data at all (maps, documents, etc.).
  • If he chooses to download some data before the run starts, he will be hacked because of his outdated software with well known vulnerabilities.
  • He can only communicate with his teammates by speaking, hand gestures and body language.
  • Great suspicion when usually connected hardware is found in upper class districts during covert operations. (Have to think it through.)

I did not finish the SR5 rulebook yet. Where does it say that you can have wired hardware at all? Assuming that you don't, I'd say:
  • It's either extremely exotic or extremely old.
  • If it's old, why is it still working? Expect serious malfunctions!
  • If it's exotic, how did your character get it and who "installed" it?
  • Increase the essence cost. You had to be chopped up pretty good to lay those wires.

The whole point of the new matrix rules is to make deckers useful during a firefight, just like mages were all the time.

Another question about the rules: Can a decker "protect" his teammates from an enemy decker? Not just attack him to draw his attention, but actively prevent him from bricking your chummer's hardware.

EDIT: Ah yes, you can try a walkie talkie but be prepared to use outdated encryption. Even now days access points scan for and locate rogue signal sources. It shouldn't be difficult for an enemy rigger to detect, locate and spy on you.
Moirdryd
Happy Hogswatch all!

Now, with that out of the way. I think people are reading both too much and not enough into the new Matrix. One simple fact is, as yet, we know very little about it save for the chapter in the core book. However, I do recall back in SR3 (and even in bits of Virtual Realities) where it used to talk about the Matric touched every aspect of life, how everyone and everything was cross referenced in the system to within a nanometer of its existence. The new Matrix I think reflects those concepts very very well. Now, I hate most if the implementation of Wireless Boni ad can totally get behind hardwiring and direct connecting (especially in the case of plenty of Cyberware) but I can also see that in the dystopian cyberpunk future that is Shadowrun 207X that the new Matrix touches all forms of wireless traffic signals, including Radiowaves. All that traffic by default passes through the Matrix because the new matrix system intercepts it all. Sure a decker of gman can't brick a two way radio, but they can triangulate its position with barely any effort. So you have to use New Tech, with new protocols, software, encryptions etc that broadcasts through the Matrux securely.

Also, in terms of the Matrix being Unifed from all Corps, despite what the background info currently says, yeah right. The Corporate Court is The unified face of the Megas and we all know how accurate and True that is (towhit, not very) and the new Matrix is a creation of that entity... So while it may all look very all for one you can bet (and it's hinted at) that the Megas are still just as shady, canny and closed as every. But then the Matrix is there to benefit them at the expense of Joe Wageslave. I'm sure Data Trails will help us clarify this Orwellian monster when it releases...
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (qis @ Dec 26 2013, 06:30 AM) *
I did not finish the SR5 rulebook yet. Where does it say that you can have wired hardware at all? Assuming that you don't, I'd say:
  • It's either extremely exotic or extremely old.
  • If it's old, why is it still working? Expect serious malfunctions!
  • If it's exotic, how did your character get it and who "installed" it?
  • Increase the essence cost. You had to be chopped up pretty good to lay those wires.

The whole point of the new matrix rules is to make deckers useful during a firefight, just like mages were all the time.

Page 421, see the headings 'Turning it Off' (which contains an important Matrix rule) and 'Throwbacks'.

Edit: Typoed the page number and, of course, didn't noticed until hours later.
qis
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Dec 26 2013, 03:34 PM) *
Page 241, see the headings 'Turning it Off' (which contains an important Matrix rule) and 'Throwbacks'.
Looks like I've been completely wrong. I thought bodyware, especially cyberlimbs, are controlled by a device attached to your brain. As far as I can see, cyberlimbs have no wireless bonuses at all, which indicates that they are connected to the nerve endings of the original limb.

From a roleplaying point of view, this is particularly interesting. It should be a unique experience when you install new hardware. You'd have to learn to use it from scratch, learn how to open that hidden compartment and how to slide those hand razors.

Still, I feel a need to punish those "my cyberzombie is immune to all hacking attempts" players. How would you handle this? (I'll write my own thoughts about this when I have finished the book and planned my campaign.)
Abschalten
QUOTE (qis @ Dec 26 2013, 02:32 PM) *
Still, I feel a need to punish...


Yeah, you lost me right there. Your players are very lucky.
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