Really, as metahumanity goes, most of the attention's gone to elves (as the "good" metahumans who are super cool and have immortal secrets and stuff) and orks (as the "bad" metahumans, who are the go-to copycats when it comes to real-world racism). And...uhhh...that's it. Sometimes you see a troll used as a super-duper ork, and sometimes you see an elf when someone remembers they exist.

But in terms of culture? In terms of languages, and "____ poser" qualities? In terms of nation-states? Yeah. There are a (very) few exceptions, but it's almost always been, and seems it'll almost always be, elves and orks that dominate.

Dangit, Crit, now you have me wanting to see a buch of guys on stilts, loping around with horns glued to their heads and trying to be Troll Posers.

The REASON why there is no Troll-Poseur Flaw and no Human Looking Edge for Trolls is because they are supposedly just that different that it just won't work at all in either direction . .

Exactly This. It sucks.

You don't say!

Doesn't mean you can't spend stupid amounts of Nuyen to be a Pretty Troll, though.

Was there someone saying otherwise?

Well, your statement ...



... could be "slightly" mistaken as to mean that with a lesser focus on elves and orcs there should be "dwarf poser" and "troll poser" qualities as well.

I'm just saying elves and orks get more page time than anyone else.

Why can't a dwarf take elf poser? Shave meticulously, grow their hair long, highlight their own pointed ears, go out of their way to speak Sperethiel? Why can't an elf take troll poser? Surgically attach some horns, bulk up with the grossest, least lean, muscle augmentation they can get? Bio-engineer themselves to change the proportions of a few limbs? Why can't a human be a dwarf poser? Implant a beard, alter their skeletal structure, get some implanted muscle slabs, bioware eye mods and toxin filters?

Sure, maybe only humans can pull it off (with elf and ork), and vice versa...but I, for one, don't see why "Metahuman Poser" couldn't just be a generic Quality available to everyone, priced about the same as (or, in fact, overlapping with) Distinctive Style.

Instead -- for whatever reason -- we instead get specific call-outs to orks and elves as the metatypes that some humans desperately want to be, and we get no sign whatsoever of some humans wanting to be dwarves or trolls. And elves and orks also just happen to be the races with plotlines circling their language, and also just happen to be the races with their own major nations (sure, dwarves have a few small territories they traditionally hold, sure the trolls have a couple spots in Germany, last I checked)...etc, etc. The existence of a few very specific "poser" Qualities might make sense (though, still, I debate that), but in my opinion it's also part of a larger, game-spanning, trend where a few races get marginalized and other races get most of the page time.

*cough*

My POINT with that was that if you can just give an ork exceptional attribute, elongated limbs and horns implanted to make them close enough to what most Trolls end up with, then what is the point of it all?
Trolls are supposed to be so vastly different that you can't be mistaken for one, ever.
All Trolls ever had going for them was being BIG STRONG TOUGH.
They got smaller in the change from SR3 to SR4, so there goes the BIG.
The Attributes now round down and it's simply impossible to actually get to their augmented maximum at least in terms of Body.
So there goes TOUGH
Strength has been mostly worthless since SR4, so there goes STRONG.
Seriously, what is there that you can do with a Troll that you can NOT do better with an Ork for example?

I'm really not sure why you're talking to me like I'm arguing with you.

just for clarification

Shouldn't that be "obvious"? The "_poser"/"____ looking" qualities - how they were initially conceived - are about "being mistaken as something else without having undergone extensive surgical/genetic alterations.



Because a dwarf/troll poser quality would actually fall into the realms of "Distinctive Style" already when done without the associated, postnatal surgical/genetic alterations, so that could be considered "redundant" on a strictly mechanical level. And as far as actual "_poser" qualities are concerned that work like "elf poser" / "ork poser" / "human-looking" for trolls/dwarfs? Apart from the appearant lack in fitting "fluff" it's also the involved costs in terms of Money, Essence and Bioindex for the required alterarions that have ramifications concerning the associated quality costs.



Which is an actual "fluff" problem you adequately described and wasn't under any form of criticism.



AFAIR that one is due to the "not so" actively pursued Earthdawn connection. The dwarven language as such was the "common" language of Earthdawn. So going by the basic stipulation that the languages spoken in present day Ukraine and adjacent nations are in fact derivates of the most prominent dwarven language that went neither "extinct" like Or'Zet - due to the lack of necessary anatomical features a.k.a tusks - nor - due to the lack of "eternal" species members - just went "underground" for a longer period. Instead dwarven languages went straight into the present day languages and are (kind of) still spoken and written. So yes, it's a bit arbitrary that there's no equivalent of Or'Zet for trolls, but that's about it.



A critique that still wasn't questioned. I merely pointed out where your statement could lead to the assumption that a clarification was "needed" about why certain "_poser" qualities wouldn't make sense / aren't there now.

Surgical modification is specifically mentioned as an option used by the elf poseur to look closer to their desired form, both in SR4A (pg 94) and SR5 (pg 81), so I would not say using surgery is outside the threshold of the ___poseur.

Granted be a bit silly too, but metahumanity is a funny old bird to start with.

~sigh~ Did you deliberately ignore important things like "extensive surgical/ genetic alterations" to make that comment? I'm perfectly aware that the basic "_poser" qualities (just as the initial versions for the "edges & flaws") mentioned the minor alterations (mainly ears and tusks). But none of the changes required for even remotely looking like a dwarf or troll when going there from a standard human (or "worse") would seriously translate into "minor" (as in negligible for monetary, Essence or Bioindex costs).

[edit]Nor did I actually say that these alterations couldn't be within the scope of the cost for (separate) "_poser" qualities for dwarf/troll. They just can't come at the same cost as the existant ones if the basic premise of "initially being mistaken as" is to be included.

*rolls his eyes*

^ see, we can do quaint typed out emotes too..

Neither edition above specifies that it is limited to minor cosmetic surgery, the RAW simply states cosmetic surgery.
The fact that a human would only require minor tweaks likes ears and eyes to usually get by is a fortunate coincidence but does not automatically rule out other more major surgery like bone extensions (to make himself taller like a wakyambi style elf perhaps) that the person may use to fulfil his pursuit of that particular form.
Edit: As to your concern about Essence/Bioindex, most of these only really kick in when you are trying to add more unnatural type stuff to the body like cyber or altered organs/other bioware types.
Purely cosmetic changes have little impact on the body overall or are all of the extensively surgically enhanced simstars actually cyberzombies? (Note: the latter would not entirely surprise me. )

We can certainly agree that if you are going to add in other poseurs or expand the current set to take in others races, you will probably need to adjust building costs appropriately.


We were simply refuting the surgical portion of your comment of "being mistaken as something else without having undergone extensive surgical/genetic alterations." Emphasis mine.

Obviously ... but not necessarily with the same motive ... oh and the pluralis maiestatis seems to be a bit "out of place".



As much as I like the attempt of reducing something to "RAW" in a discussion that mainly refers to rules it's initially not worth the attempt when the "elfposer" quality that provides precedence to the mentioning of "surgery" does not explicitly refer to "minor" changes but also doesn't explicitly refer to extensive ones either. But we'll come back to "RAW" later on.



Going beyond RAW here suddenly? Where - by RAW - are metavariants part of the "poser" qualities?



So I said that additional "poser" qualities should reflect involved costs and you start objecting by deliberately ignoring parts of my comment but ultimately agree ... Certainly very productive. Objection for objections sake ... Let me re-use a emote here: ~sigh~



Ah, so by making another deliberate change on emphasis that suddenly includes something you initially decided to ignore ("extensive") turns my comment into something that is refuted by "you" now?! Where's that RAW again that actually allows "you" to make the claim that "extensive surgical [..] alterations" are in fact part of the quality? 3rd, 4th and 5th edition to refer to "cosmetic surgery" with only the explicit mentioning of eyes and ears and for orcs - albeit mentioning a longer list of modifications after being introduced in 4th and kept now in 5th edition - its "cosmetic biomods" (not surgery!) ... So "RAW" doesn't quite say what "you" seem to think.