There are a few reasons.

Don't have a SIN? Its really hard getting real work.
Wrong race? Still a lot of racism.
Prefer living on the street to being a literal wage slave to some corp? There's a mini-rant in Demolition Man that sums it up rather succinctly: Language Warning

Money isn't everything. A certain amount of freedom is necessary.

A) you are a SIN less non person and therefore unable to find legit work.
B) your illegal work actually out earns what a 9 to 5 worker makes (which is 5k per month)

Because playing Papers & Paychecks™ is boring as hell.


Roll to see if your accountant spots the error on the invoice.

Does the bonus from my Cerebral Boosters count?


Roddy, the vending machine makes a grinding sound as it tries to dispense your candy bar and freezes up, your treat hanging barely onto the end of the feeder coil. What do you do?

My orc has 4 Str and 2 Agil so I am going to try and give the machine a light shake and see if we can dislodge it without wrecking the machine again, I can't afford another one coming out of my paycheck..

Dan, the manager has called you in to fix the broken cupholder on his computer and he has picked up another couple viruses you are going to need to sort out. Seems he fell for the 413 again.

GAH! How the hell did he ever make it to manager and I keep telling him he can't be opening unchecked files coming out of Lagos like that....

That sounds hilarious.

depends on the backstory. For instance, my Adept Sniper has a Longarms skill of 7, agility of 8 & tosses 25+ dice on average before neg mods, however, because of is backstory, most Legit professions would be impractical, if not deadly.

He was part of an Ares child soldier program, he & several other kids were taken from their homes early on in life & trained constantly to become the best they could be, Shade was special because as it turned out he had magical abilities as well. After a decade or so being forced by Ares to do the stuff they didn't want he went AWOL, so Ares is searching for their former Child soldier. In the process of escaping Shade ended up with Amnesia, so he doesn't remember his family or much before he escaped Ares. He runs the shadows knowing he needs to keep his head low, do as much damage to Ares as possible & find out something about his past before Ares catches up to him.

there's plenty of reasons why someone might run the shadows instead of having a regular company job.

now, people who actually have those reasons to run the shadows are comparatively rare... I would guess that by far the majority of people with skill 6 in a valuable skill are working for megacorporations earning good money.

but, let's suppose you used to work for one of those companies, and they decided that your moral code made you too much of a liability (maybe you found out that aztechnology brand soylent green is made of people, and you just can't ignore that even for a 6-figure paycheck). they cut you loose, and now you might have goals ranging from proving the soylent green division is using people to the main HQ (depending on whether or not you actually believe HQ cares), to getting revenge on the manager who decided to have you silenced (obviously you survived), to trying to expose aztechnology for allowing this to happen, etc.

all of a sudden, you now have a reason why you're not working for someone else. even aztechnology's enemies don't really want to fund your war against aztechnology, and certainly none of them are interested in, say, preventing a PR disaster. meanwhile, you're too focused on something that isn't their bottom line... in terms of skills, they'd be happy to hire you for something, but they sure aren't interested in having you start a corporate war with aztechnology on your downtime, and even then they're going to be hesitant to let you work on anything morally questionable (which is most of the stuff that they need those highly skilled people for in the first place).

to use some of the examples from the novels: Ghost is a shadowrunner to try and further the cause of his urban tribe; the tribal council doesn't support them, and the rest of the city certainly doesn't want them around, so he gets work where it's available. Twist is a shadowrunner because the megacorporation he worked for basically put his sister into a concentration camp and wouldn't let him contact her. dodger... well, his reasons at first are unclear, but eventually he gets pretty involved with protecting a powerful AI. before that, I believe he had some ties to one of the immortal elfs (sean Laverty I think) and was a spike baby, so he may very well have been a shadowrunner to keep an eye on things for the man who is essentially his adoptive father.

basically, there are plenty of reasons to run the shadows, even when you're skilled enough to be in high demand for a regular job (bear in mind, even a slightly above average character should be in reasonably high demand in terms of skills; it's quite likely that the team decker is better at computer skills than the software writer you just got hired to extract, but your decker should also have a reason he's not working for a corporation... often, that will be related to their qualities, like a strong moral code, or simply being more strongly tied to something else, like the neo-anarchist movement). most people don't have those reasons, and as such, they are working for the megas. some people do have those reasons, and are thus not the sort of person a mega wants working for them even if they are highly skilled.


or, to put it another way: a corporation would rather have an average nobody who does what they're told than someone who is highly skilled but also highly volatile. if you are volatile enough, no amount of skill will make a corporation want to hire you.

To me, the "for peanuts" part is where the disconnect comes from, not skills. Shadowrunners are SINless outcasts, corporate burnouts, idealists, thrill-seekers, and crazies. I have no problem seeing people with world-class skills being either unable or unwilling to find "legitimate" work. But looking at the prices for betaware or better augmentations, and similar gear, I think that too many GMs pay runners far too little for mundane characters to have any meaningful avenues of advancement. Looking at what modern day security personnel or mercenaries make (Blackwater, etc.), or the kind of bling that street gangs swagger around with, it seems shadowrunners are seriously underpaid in many campaigns.

And it does not. The mechanics within the In-Debt does not get rid of the Negative Quality. The quality makes no mention of any "severe change" as per the normal NQ-karma mechanism.

I can easily see why someone with elite class expertise at shooting, stealing, or other nefarious skillset ends up running the shadows.

Someone with said elite skillsets probably encounters powerful people on a semi-regular basis. Many of which probably employ said skilled people, or are the targets of said skilled people. Piss off the wrong powerful people, and you either end up dead, or having to run.

Alternately, you hear stories with good reason about career spec ops folks setting up backdoors in case something seriously goes sideways and they have to dissappear. If you're hung out to dry by your own government, you probably don't have a lot of choices. If you were smart, you planned for this ahead of time. My 4th edition Missions mage was pretty much in this vein.

The upper echelon shadows are filled with such folks. Most can't go home again, so they make do with the skills they have.

And some are "damaged goods", unable to break away from the biz. It's not that hard to convince yourself that you can't fix things.


-k

Exactly this. They wouldn't work for peanuts. So stop paying them peanuts. If the McGuffin the corp wants extracted is worth 2 million nuyen then you better pay some decent amount of cash to make it worth while stealing it and turning it over rather than just selling it on the highest bidder. Corporations don't need to be completely honest but there has to be some level of trust between them and the runners or no one would ever work the shadows. Executing runners after they do the job just isn't good for business.
Paying out 5000 for a job is just insulting unless it is as simple as robbing a Stuffer Shack. As has been said before, no one is going to run the shadows for less than they can make stealing cars.

it doesn't say it doesn't get rid of the quality when you pay off the debt either. we could write forever and still not list all of the things that it doesn't say.

in the absence of a clear statement making this particular quality a special exception, the only reasonable conclusion is that it isn't a special exception, because otherwise we have to assume anything could be a special exception with no rhyme or reason to it whatsoever.

if the negative quality is no longer a negative quality (that is, it ceases to have any mechanical impact whatsoever), then you have gotten rid of it. once you have paid back the money owed in this quality, it is no longer negative, nor even really a quality, and you certainly are no longer someone who can be described as "in-debt". it is a completely neutral non-quality at that point.

More Questions!

Any eye cyberware that is very good to take?

Would Negative Quality: Prejudiced vs. Clowns be out of line generally speaking? "Clowns? Why did it have to be clowns!?" *Shoots the clown off the top of an ice cream truck!*

I believe Prejudiced is meant & intended for racial prejudices.

Wouldn't that be more in line with a phobia?

I'm taking that too. "Damn clowns! You saw it! It tried stealing my soul! Fracking clown! Trying to turn people into clowns! Its worse than those bug spirit things! Always wanting to shake hands and they get white makeup on you! Then before you know it you're making balloon animals! Then its too late!"

I am not taking this Negative Quality as an exception. It is not an exception. What I am saying is that since it is not an exception, then if you do not pay the karma, the Negative Quality is not removed. What I am also saying is that once you pay off the capital (along with any interest accured), then the capital owed is 0. You can have an In-Debt Quality with 0 capital owed because it is NOT an exception.


This is where I disagree. A Negative Quality is still a Negative Quality as long as you do not pay the karma to get rid of it. It matters not whether it has any continuing mechanical effect. You are certainly still In-Debt, without actually owing any money or being in-debt.

In general, a Negative Quality needs be bought off with karma and GM-allowed roleplay. However if there is a specific game mechanic that allows a character to remove his Negative Quality in an alternate manner, then the character would have 2 ways to get rid of his Negative Quality.

Can we get off the Debt Train please? The original point has been made and rehashing it isn't helping anything.

Not entirely when artists, gays, and lawyers are listed as examples of a "specific target group." But then, I'd also be a little leery if a player is going to be prejudiced towards a group that is unlikely to ever be in a campaign. If a player is gonna be prejudiced against clowns, then there may be a run or three involving a circus.

I will as long as the other guys will.

Prejudiced AND Phobic, clowns are definitely gonna show up occasionally. Maybe a whole clown gang.

In SR4, cybereyes are good the same way a cranial commlink is good - it is internal and a part of you now, so it is harder/less likely for you to "lose" it. Otherwise, you can pretty much get the same visual enhancements from a pair of skinlinked glasses - or even contacts. So it comes down to personal preference. Some people think they are a waste of Essence, while others (like me) like them - and they are relatively low-cost and low-Essence. One package I like to get is cybereyes: 2 with low-light or thermographic vision, flare compensation, smartlink, and vision magnification.

Prejudices, like allergies, are a GM call as to whether they are commonly encountered enough. Clowns is pushing it, in my opinion. It is too rare even for a specific group.

IIRC, there is no Sound Dampening on an external piece of gear. Might want to consider getting that as a piece of cyber.

Cyber eyes also offer the advantage of a built in camera to record what you see. No need to covertly sneak in a camera for such a purpose if your eyes already do it. The free image link is nice as well. I've generally found humans will get cyber eyes while the other races weigh it against the loss of their natural vision enhancement (low-light or thermo).

That's correct. The other advantage to cyberears is that you can turn them off completely, useful against some things such as a barghest's howl or other sound-based attacks.

There is only one correct phobia - ducks. You get to shout "duck" and dive for cover with the rest of your crew joining you then when you see that Red samurai detachment they ignore you and get shot.

Bwahahaha~ Nice.

<Pinky> "Canard! Canard!"
<Brain> "Doesn't that mean duck?"
*Balloons crashed into a giant bell*

Yep it's from the classic 2050's children's cautionary tale - the runner who cried duck.

Mimes are a good alternative, just as creepy and more widespread since they act more in solo or small groups and do not need a whole circus.


Again, I just don't like mimes after that run where everyone else in the group was a mime. *shudders*
Plus I still think they were cheating with their mime dice, I mean come on, they were rolling better than TJ.


I wonder how many runners get salsa'd every year because we use the word frag for both swearing and for the grenade.

FRAG!
*everyone dives for cover*
Sorry... stubbed my toe

Later...

FRAG!
*again with the diving*
Sorry... banged my knee on the desk

Still later

FRAG!
Whatever *keeps going*
BOOM!

Reminds me of this gem from DS9.

In Debt and Day Job are my hot-button flaws. In Debt has been discussed to death, but Day Job is the worst by far. Not only is it a flaw that directly gives you cash, it also has many of the same problems as In Debt, but ongoing. Because it's a flaw, you keep the income until you buy it off; you can blow off your job as often as you like, the paychecks will still keep rolling in. I've banned Day Job from my games with extreme prejudice.

Also: Despite what others have said, Incompetence is not a trap option. It's far better than the group choices-- Infirm, Uncouth, Uneducated-- and the trick is to pick skills that you probably won't use or can't use. It'd take a really permissive GM to allow a mundane to take Magical Incompetences, but certain ones like Hardware and Software for non-deckers is a great buy.

Mathematically speaking, multiple Incompetences are better than the group options. Uncouth blocks off six skills, and nets you 20 points in return. You could buy four Social incompetences for that price, and still be functional or better in two social skills. If you really want a character that's completely socially inept, you can take six incompetences and get 30 points instead of 20. You do take a hit to Notoriety, but enough time will solve that problem, plus Notoriety has its own advantages. The other two "group incompetences" block off even more skills, so they're even worse.

The best joke was when I had a character with Incompetence: Pilot Aerospace. Technically it's a legit choice, but not only is it not likely to ever come up, it will never come up in a way that won't already mean the team is screwed. If the street sam absolutely must pilot a space shuttle, you're already screwed.

And I will say it again...

A Flaw that is not a Flaw isn't a Flaw.
Translated: A Negative Quality that has absolutely no impact is not a Negative Quality. And therefore you get no points for it.

It is a simple rule, and avoids a lot of Shenanigans. Simple as that.

I've had to play a cybered mage (Cyberarm+Bioware) with one DM before he was willing to concede that Sensitive System does in fact have impact, namely it bars you from augmenting in certain directions. The fact that I rolled more dice on shooting skills than the Streetsam (without the use of any magic) certainly helped drive the point home.

Agreed... I am not one to complain about Sensitive System... It DOES have an Impact, though it CAN be minimized. The loss of cheap augmentations is a cost, however. After all, Cyberware provides an immediate and powerful avenue for improvements.

Personally, I would probably apply Sensitive System to Bioware instead (Cyber has a Huge impact on Essence at relatively low cost, so I see no need to further inhibit characters, where as Bio is Expensive and has a minimal Impact on Essence, and is the ideal path for an awakened to augment because of that reason - It is still a better path, but at DOUBLE Essence and Still Expensive, if forces more of a choice between augmentations and no augmentations), but that is just me.

As long as it isn't written like 5e Sensitive System, which utterly misses the point by being unplayable levels of bad for mundanes.

The only good Flaw is a Flaw that isn't.

A Negative Quality that can be made to minimal negative impact is still a Negative Quality. And the more points you get points for it the better.

It is a simple rule and is lots more fun. Simple as that.

The quest for unlimited power is not fun. I far prefer a Good Story over the Mechanical Quest to be the King. *shrug*
Fundamental Philosophy Differences. We will not reconcile them. Leave it at that.

Indeed... No doubt.

Well, I'd certainly be hesitant to call "Thrill Seeker" a negative quality for a combat biker.

Gets you into trouble (potentially) and potentially causes mayhem and mishap... Definition of a Negative Quality.

That's a system flaw, though. Really, not all skills are created equal: Pistols and Automatics are the more common combat skills, and Perception is probably the most commonly bought skill, period. However, Incompetent: Perception and Incompetent: Pilot Aerospace give you exactly the same return, even though they don't have nearly the same amount of value.

Flaws need to have a gradiated return: the more a Flaw hurts you, the more points it should be worth. SR4.5's edge/flaw system is really a poorly-done one-size-doesn't-fit-all system, with glaring errors that can be easily demonstrated. The problem is that the system doesn't make that distinction, even though it wouldn't be hard to do so.

I kinda like Fate's approach to it. Basically, your flaws give you an Edge like resource whenever they bite you in the backside.

Yep... Works like a charm, too.

I get that... And though it may be a system flaw, it is not egregious. It just needs to be policed a bit. If the GM does his job, the grossest abuses will be eliminated, and then you discuss the rest. I have no problem with Incompetence, but if the player takes it for Pilot: Aerospace, I will tell him that his choice not acceptable for the campaign, and have him take something else. Simple as that. On the other hand, If I plan on running in the Space Arcologies, that might be acceptable. It is all about the expectations of the game.

I do like the Champions System (Hero System) for Disadvantages too, but again, it has to be policed. Hell, even in Fate, you have to have input and discussion on your Aspects (Good and Bad), because even there, it is about expectations, more than anything. Not Everything fits for Every Game.

The player should only take Incompetence: Pilot: Aerospace only if it won't come up. Else it is stupidity. Or masochism. Either is incompatible with fun for most people.

I disagree... If you are not wanting to be impacted, then do not take Negative Qualities at all. Expect them to have an impact in the games you play with me; I would not allow you to take Negative Qualities that would have no impact. *shrug*

As I said, your ideas are not my ideas, nor those of whom I play with. Thank you for your participation.

No, thank you for your non-participation.

Its funny, you seem to be the ONLY one arguing for Negative Qualities having absolutely no impact. Why not just skip the BS and ask for/give out additional Build Points? Just give everyone extra BP's equal to the Character's Positive Qualities and ignore NQ's all together. If the character has 30 points of PQ's, they get an additional Bonus 30 BP. Seems like that would be more up your alley. Would definitely eliminate the Passive Aggressive acquisition of NQ's that have no impact whatsoever.

Mind stopping this circlejerking, please? First it's In Debt, now it's Incompetence...

Seconded. The originally interesting thread is long dead.

It has certainly been demonstrated as to why the GM has to clearly communicate with his players during CharGen and police what is going on.


What's the verdict on starting cyberware? Anything to look out for? Working on my character, I did some checking and found out there is a procedure for restoring essence (though costly an time consuming) so I took secondhand basic stuff since I knew I could correct the essence loss later in my career when I upgraded everything.