Which shows exactly how much you actually do not understand my position. *shrug*

Just curious, but when does a Sniper not worry about visibility (Environmental conditions ALWAYS matter to a Sniper), cover (Shooter is not out in open, and in SR4A, that means he is dealing with a modifier right off the bat) or fatigue (ever been in a Sniper Hide for 3 days waiting for that one moment that everything syncs up) modifiers. While also not worrying about more esoteric things (Extreme Bullet Drop, Coriolis Effect, etc.) that he has to compensate for at ranges of up to a Mile? You do make my point for me... Most people do not know what goes into many aspects of Special Forces training. And that lack of knowledge translates into characters that are not realistic in play.

So... Not playing by the rules set up in the actual game world, then. Got it. All you had to do was say so.

Visibility is pretty much a non-starter. First off, what idiot Sammy doesn't have Thermographic? So unless someone is wearing full-body IR Damping (strongly indicating a high-speed/low-drag type and still capping out at -6 to DP) and/or popping hot smoke, you can see the human-shaped greenish white blobs with the firearm-shaped slightly cooler objects in their hands just fine through rain, sleet, snow, whatever at ranges of several hundred meters. Second, if they do pop hot smoke then you're firing blind unless you also have ultrasonic sensors so you shouldn't be counting on hitting them anyway. Even if they do have the Gucci IR Dampened full-body suit, if they just shot at you you now have a nice-hot barrel that you can see just fine which puts them right about...*BANG!* AIEEEE!...there.

Range? 99%+ of Shadowrunners will be fighting within Short/Med ranges for SMGs and Short range for ARs because of the urban environment they typically work in. Again, a non-issue in the vast majority of situations.

Fatigue? Most missions are hop and pops from the honking that I heard with my daily pay scale post from before. Eat your Wheaties and get 8 hours. Besides, it would probably cap out at -2 or so DP anyway unless the character is really pushing things.

Dodging? That could be an issue...if it wasn't for the fact that if they're dodging then they ain't shooting back at you. You need to pick one, shoot or dodge. You can't do both.

Wounds? You mean that if your holding your guts in with one hand you really shouldn't be able to count on shoot running targets through the left eye? *GASP!* Perish the thought! Besides, they cap out in most situations at -6 DP when you're at deaths door and about to be KOed anyway.

Cover? They might get a hit or two from the 4 bonus dice. It's not close to as much of an issue as you make it out to be.

on the contrary, I am playing with the rules.

I'm just not playing with the assumption that the opposition are too stupid to use inexpensive widely available options that significantly improve their effectiveness unless they should be.

in much the same way that I'm not playing with the assumption that the PCs are too stupid to use the same options. if there's a simple, easily-obtained, inexpensive piece of tech that gives you +3 to your dicepool, then it should be assumed that anyone with a reasonable amount of resources available will use it unless they're really really stupid. heck, maybe even if they are really really stupid they'll use it.

I was going by "A sniper can hit a human-sized target at Extreme range all damn day with 15 dice (average roll of three hits with the 9 dice left)." Obviously, not all sniping is under ideal conditions. But when your target doesn't get to roll Reaction, and you can take your time (and some aim actions), sniping doesn't take as many dice, to be effective, as a typical firefight does.


By dodging, I meant the target rolling Reaction, although I imagine most targets will also be moving or behind at least partial cover, unless it is an exchange of gunfire at close range in the open (negotiations that break down, etc.). Vision modifiers reduce penalties, but don't always quite to zero. Fatigue and wounds are not always a factor, but fights do happen later in the run, when you have already been worn down by previous fights. You're not always going to have heavy penalties, but the little ones can add up. I guess they may not be as big of a factor in some campaigns, but if they are facing ideal conditions, shadowrunners should be consistently hitting the opposition (although under such conditions, they should be concerned about return fire hitting them).

That's where your house rule comes into play. More successes are better in SR4.5, and that is reflected in the Critical Success rule. If you don't care about the flourish, that's fine-- it's your game, play it how you will. However, the critical success is the only narrative-based rule in SR4.5, so by ignoring it, you emphasize dice over narrativism. In a strange way, that is rollplay over roleplay.

Look, Shadowrun isn't D&D. In D&D, all that matters is that you beat the DC: it doesn't matter if you beat it by one, or by one hundred. There's no degree of success, and no difference between those rolls. However, Shadowrun has never been that way. If you beat the threshold by one success, that's a pass. Two or three successes, and you did a good job. More means you did even better. As an example, let's say two characters are playing Basketball. In the first game, one guy wins by one success. As a GM, you'd probably say that he just squeaked by, only winning by a few points. In the next game, he wins by eight successes. By your reading, that means he didn't totally dominate the game-- he just squeaked by again. That's not how the spirit of Shadowrun is supposed to work.

Don't believe me? Look at page 63 of your hymnal:


So, if you don't care about finesse and flair, that's fine; but it's not what the rules say. It's your house rule. I'm not going to call the gaming police on you if you want to ignore degrees of success, but you have to admit it's not part of the RAW or RAI.


Mmm-hmm. Well, actually having *trained* with Army Rangers (I even studied martial arts from a Green Beret instructor), I can tell you they *all* have specialties. Yes, they all train in the same basics, and are more than passably proficient in many areas. But there's a reason why most teams only have one sniper, one demolition specialist, one heavy weapons guy, etc. It's not because any man on the team couldn't be proficient in the role; it's because that one guy is the specialist, and better at it than everyone else on the team.

Also I'd like to point out that basic zoom functions, available to literally everything from smartguns to cybereyes to -contacts-, much less actual scopes and optics - is capable of nullifying any range penalties.
Do note that this includes the extra-long expanded Extreme Range many super-heavy weapons such as lasers and such get.


And then there's the whole 'replace a camping sniper with a stealth drone' arguement, leaving the team in a nice cozy tent and taking turns watching the feeds.




Mostly because you actually just complain about it, instead of quantifying how you think it should be.

If you were going to stat an ACTUAL close-to-real-life badass soldier, the likes of which the thread has been discussing, what skills would you give them?
Disregard stats and attributes - those vary wildly anyway - what kind of active skills, knowledge skills, specializations do you think would properly do justice to the concept?

No Houserule Cain... Stop it. Just because more hits is Better does not mean that I need to chased DP's just to get those hits. Fact remains... 1 Net Hit is all you need to succeed. PERIOD. Look it up, you amy surprise yourself. More hits only adds finesse and flair, per your exact quote. 1 Net gives you success. which is all that is needed to actually succeed. WOW, imagine that. So, if I don't care about added finesse and flair (more than 1 net Success), and I get the job done (1 Net Success), then I only need 1 net success to actually succeed. Pretty simple concept, really.

Yes, All Spec Ops have specialties, never said they didn't (Veteran Level in SR4A is more than enough for most Spec Ops, with maybe a 5 thrown in from time to time - DP's 12-15)... BUT, those specialties are not maxed out so as to eliminate or minimize their needed remaining cover skills. So, your Houserule that you need 20+ Dice to function is complete and total BS, and the expected DP's in game (Fact: look in the book, you will see it) of Below 20 DP are there for a reason. Done arguing with you.

I have commented on this many, many times. And I would not stat them to the likes of which the majority of the board has been discussing, since I think they tend to go too high. .

Using the Skill Descriptors for SR4A...

My Absolute Minimum Stats (Human) for Active Spec Ops.
Minimum of Body 4, Agility 4, Reaction 4, Strength 4, Charisma 3, Intuition 4, Logic 4, and Willpower 4 (23 Attribute Points Allocated).
Physicals of 5 are not required, but would be nice. I would rarely ever place a Natural 6, though I could be convinced with a good enough Concept.

My Absolute Minimum Skills for Active Spec OPs (or Veteran Active Duty 03xx Marines ).
Skills 5: Firearms Group (Broken with AR Specialty on Longarms) - Regardless of whether the Character is Awakened, Emergent, or Mundane, they are first and foremost a weapon focused character.
Skills 4: Athletics Group, Disguise (Camouflage), Infiltration (Environmental - Dependent upon Area of Operational Specialty, if Any), Outdoors Group, Perception
Skills 3: Close Combat Group, Demolitions, Diving (If SCUBA Trained), Gunnery, Heavy Weapons, Instruction, Leadership, Parachuting (If Airborne Trained), Secondary Language (Preferred), Throwing Weapons, Cross-trained Specialty Skill (Electronics Specialist, Medical, etc.). Knowledge Skills of Strategy, Tactics, Guerilla Warfare as well as Professional Skill: Special Operations Soldier.
Skills 2: Armorer, First Aid, Pilot Ground (Military Vehicle), Pilot Watercraft (PBR or Zodiac)

Trained Specialty Skill/s (if Other than Firearms, Like a Hacker/Hardware Specialist or Magician Specialist) I would place at either Rank 4 or 5 dependent upon the actual skill involved. This might move a skill up from where I currently have it listed. And ss above, I would not place any of their skills as a 6, I just do not classify the vast majority of Spec Ops personnel as Best in the World, individually, in any given skill.

So - Firearms DP's are a minimum of 11/13 (Stat 4, Skill 5, Smartlink/+Specialty if applicable) for the above with no augmentations (which will reduce by 2 for the Heavy weapons or Gunnery Skills unless they ARE the specialty of the character). If you wanted to Add the Tacnet they likely have at Rating 3 it puts those DPs to 14/17. Right where I think they should be. They don't Need Augmentations to be competitive. But you could add a 2 point Agility Boost relatively cheaply, so that becomes 16/19. I would not generally go above that. But then, there is no need to do so at our table. The world works with what I have above (and the above character works with the World as described - though he is NOT a starting character in any sense of the word), and the PC's fall under that for the most part until they can gain the experience to compete with the above stated Spec Ops. Yes, you can get a DP higher, But just because you CAN do something does not mean that you Should.

Obviously, I did not worry about general augmentations. Military would likely put in Wired 1 (at least) for the Extra IP and Reaction Increase. Maybe some vision/auditory enhancements as well. Though Most of that can be accomplished with far cheaper external add-ons. That being said - If you choose to raise stats through augmentation, I would still keep the minimum requirements on skills. This would result in DPs that could potentially increase by a few more dice.

Now - Inactive Spec Ops I would see to likely degrade the above by 1, for the most part. And I could live with that.

First of all, I and the mods have asked you multiple times to quit bolding and italicizing my name. It's rude and aggressive.

Second, you're absolutely wrong that one next success is the same as ten. Most of the time, the difference is in roleplay, sure. But sometimes there is a mechanical benefit, such as attack rolls and certain spells. I'm sure you can think of others. If you don't care about roleplay, that's fine, it's your game. But the rule that extra successes give you extra benefits is right there in the core book. If you choose to ignore it, that's entirely your choice, but it is a house rule.

Third, who says I have a house rule that you need 20+ dice to function? You're completely wrong. My house rule is that you *cannot* have more than 20 dice in your pool, excluding situational modifiers like Edge. You've got that one completely backwards.

Fourth, if you don't think special ops teams in the real world haven't maxed out their skills, you're insane. Every member of a team not only pushes their physical abilities to the utter limit, they train intensively in every skill they might reasonably use. The reason the sniper is assigned the sniper's role isn't because they drew his name out of a hat; they picked him because he's the best shot in the group. Yes, anyone on the team can pick up his gun and do a decent job, you don't make the team if you're anything less than an expert marksman. But the sniper is the sniper because he's better at it.

What's more, every special ops member I've ever met is aggressively perfectionist at the minimum, ruthlessly competitive being more common. That's because they're all damn near Olympic level in physical ability and skill; they have to be amazingly driven to get where they are. Even if they are forced to admit that another member of their team is a better shot, they keep hammering away at their training, determined to someday be able to outshoot the sniper. So, if there's any way they can shoot better or improve their capabilities, you better believe they've already tried it. To translate that into SR4.5 terms, that means they'll use every trick in the book to pump up their dice pool.

I would knock down the firearms skill group by a level for non-tier 1 forces. Sorry, but a lot of special ops (hell, just say "military" when it comes right to it) guys are bit big-headed when it comes to their shooting skills. There is a reason why there are plenty of second-tier professional shooters teaching spec ops while the Gods of Competition shoot rings around them, and it's not +1 skill dice. Take Larry Vickers, a very well regarded combat shooting instructor that teaches all sorts of high-speed/low-drag types, on an episode of Tac TV. He was shooting with Rob Leatham and was getting comparable splits. It seemed cool until Vickers pointed out, with more than a bit of chagrin, that he was shooting the A-zone and Leatham was shooting his original bullet hole...and hitting it at comparable speed. Now Vickers was shooting his Glock and Leatham used his customized 1911 with a 1-1/2 lb trigger, but there was still a freely-admitted big hop in skill between them.

Degradation is a very real thing. Leatham shoots at least 2500 rounds a week....every week. SEAL 6 did comparable numbers, but split between multiple weapons systems and with automatic weapons. Bullets cost about $4 a peice in SR. That means that Tier 1 military and CorpSec forces are blowing $10K per man...per week. You want that skill level of 6 in Pistols? Club your wallet until it stops screeching in agony, because to keep it up there that's the scratch your character will have to be spending.

You want the real reason why military shooters can't match the professional shooters? They're simply too busy doing other shit. They're fast roping, taking driving courses, scuba training, running 10 miles, hitting the o-course, taking hand-to-hand combat courses, etc. They can be very good, but they will never be the best because the best eat, sleep, and dream this shit and a spec ops troop is too damn busy being a soldier.

For special ops, I agree with both the breath of skill Ty suggests and the level of ability that Cain suggests. They are the equivalent of prime runners, and you can't really make them as starting characters (partly because breadth of skill is prohibitively expensive in Shadowrun). They are a bad descriptor for skill: 6, though, because what they actually are is lots of skills at 6. A starting shadowrunner may not have the breadth (or the gear) of one of them, but can be a marksman, or a street racer, or a pit fighter, or otherwise have one or two skills that come close to a special ops dude.


This illustrates one tenet of optimization: create a concept that fits in with how the game rules work. You can have this image of a tough guy who does everything by his own guts and gumption, disdaining the crutch of augmentations, but in play, you will be severely handicapping yourself by foregoing the cheap boosts of augmentations, which can shore up weak areas in your character, or turn good areas into superhuman ones. You can envision your character as a former special ops dude, only to find yourself quickly running out of points, especially for skills.

Character background should not take place in a vacuum! The stats that go with that background are equally important - they ensure that what you say about the character is actually reflected in gameplay. If you say the character is a crack shot, his Agility and pistols skill should be above average. If you say your character is a mediocre shot, then muscle toner and a smartlink, good and obvious choices as they usually are, might not fit that particular character.

The extra successes may make you look better, but they don't matter (One Net Hit still means that you were shot). Once you have 1 Net Success, the rest are just gravy.

No, I DON'T think that Spec Ops real world have "Maxed out their skills." Near Olympic Quality and Olympic quality are not equal. Therefore they have not maxed out their skills. Pretty Simple, that.

Never said they were not aggressive nor competitive. That is you putting words in my mouth again.

I agree with this 100%.

I would think top olympic shooters (augged by magic or tech) would have 7 skill, aug maxed agi, specialty & whatever specific specials their type grants. (Naturally this would favor the augmented adept slightly for the olympics) for a 20+ dice pool.

I will say this: there are special forces and there are special forces.

In real life, skill sets and levels can vary wildly between different militaries. US special forces tend to be very well trained. British and Australian special forces are trained similarly. While very few other forces can match the Filipinos scout rangers in the jungle, they aren't really that good at CQB/urban ops.

In SR, IIRC back in the SR2/3, the skill level of the opposition were scaled to the PCs, but they were consistent when compared to each other. The Red Samurai were like Clone Commandoes in that skill levels were uniform, while the Firewatch competency levels had great variation. So while you can make a case that an ex-Red Sam should have the whole suite of high-level skills, an ex-Ares Firewatch member could well be the bottom of that barrel.

Furthermore, a "special forces" soldier in a backwater dictatorship may just be a better equipped trooper with higher loyalty and motivation to the regime. Maybe he has better food, so his Attributes are better. Maybe the Great Leader has gifted his elite troops with augmentation.

Maybe the foreign special forces trooper really was trained by Green Beret instructers. But come guys, we all know that when the US military has exchange students, they don't teach us everything.

This is very true, even among american special forces you have the gamut of Rangers to Seals to the rarer Delta Force & Recon squads. Each group has their different regiments & training but all qualify as Special Forces.

I really beg to differ. Attack rolls are one example of where extra successes matter, because they translate into damage. Certain spells are another, such as mental manipulation spells.

But the biggest reason they matter is because the rules say they matter. It's right there, in black and white. You can ignore it, of course, it's your game. But don't try and pretend you're not using a house rule, because I've cited the rule.

As for "maxed out skills"; I've never met a Special Ops member who would settle for being anything less than the best of the best. Really, it makes sense; to even make a real special forces team, you need to be driven to excel. If somebody shoots better than them, they won't stop until they can shoot better. The only reason they can't shoot Olympic-quality is because Olympic shooters don't have to deal with the stress of combat. In a real shootout, I'd even put my money on the special forces trained shooter; real combat causes your abilities to degrade something fierce.

But, let's test the numbers. One of the tests a sniper has to pass to get the title in the US military (just be be called a sniper; the standards to make a special ops team are higher) is to be able to hit a target in the head, using iron sights, at 800m. You only get one shot, and you have to be able to do it 90% of the time or better. Using your numbers (13 dice with specialty), we're looking at -6 for range, -4 for called shot (it could be more, but this seems fair), and using a Walther 2100, we have a modified dice pool of 3. That's enough to hit the target, but not enough to reliably kill (the modified DV is only 12, which is survivable), and the odds say you can only do it about 60% of the time. It's demonstratably clear that your numbers are low.

maintaining a skill like firearms is a lot easier in shadowrun. the vast majority of your practice can be done in simsense/AR. oh, i don't imagine all of it can be, but ballistics are not a terribly hard thing for a computer to simulate. if you want to get really fancy, you could have a training gun that releases compressed air when you fire to simulate recoil (but officially, you can just wear fancy gloves or use a simsense module).

You forgot aiming bonuses. And snipers train with scopes, at least the Marine Scout Sniper's do, and you'd be really hard pressed to find a training course with higher standards than the Jarheads. The Devil Dogs take sniper training as serious as a heart attack, as evidenced by the fact that the FBI's HRT (pretty much the end all, be all of law enforcement counter-terror operators) snipers have to pass their course.

800 meter heads shots with iron sights at a 90%+ plus standard? Just be aware that this is a higher standard than Delta's.

I got the Cold Bore test from reading the Fort Benning curriculum. They're the first training school most snipers go through. Yes, snipers train with scopes; but first they learn to shoot without them. Obviously, better schools exist, but if you can't make it through Fort Benning, you can't make it through the better schools either. The Cold Bore test is one of the first tests you have to pass; later on, you get scopes, but the shots get tougher. Other tests I've read about include having to sprint 500 meters and complete the shot in less than 30 seconds, so they have to make snap shots-- no time to aim.

Anyway, the point is that 13 dice is laughably low for anyone who's passed even the basic sniper training. Their skill is demonstrably much higher than that.

Is that even humanly possible?

Fastest human 100m sprint ~10s.
Fastest theorectical 500m sprint ~50s.
50s>30s, autofail unless not human.

Or am I reading it wrong?

I may have misremembered the numbers. Looking at it again, it was only 100m. Still, it's not easy to pull off, since the faster you run the harder you breathe; and controlling your breathing is essential for aiming. Basically, they had to make the shot without taking the time to aim.

100m sounds about right because if you are running further you are probably doing a long haul and would be pacing yourself in any case.

This is very true.

So, I can increase the DP with the Hawkeye Quality (Every sniper I know can see so freakishly well that it is scary) by 3 Dice (Reduce the -6 Penalty to a -3 Penalty). That makes it 6 Dice, and now you have doubled your DP, without adding Dice Bloat. Makes a Difference. That one change puts me into the realm that you describe and I have not increased the Base DP at all. I am sure there are other ways to do so without jacking the DP above where I put it. Aiming also adds 2 Dice. SO now we are at 8 Dice to hit the target in the head. Even a Spotter would provide additional competence without the Shooter raising his skill. So you see, It is demonstrably clear that my numbers work just fine.

So it's the shots that biathlon competitors make all damn day with smaller targets at longer ranges...

Heh... Yeah, those would be the ones.

The 3 dice pool is for attempting to make the shot under 1.5 seconds on a previously unknown target, and be able to pull a second one in the next 1.5 second with a 2 or 3 dice pool (depending on recoil compensation). Otherwise, you should roll 4 or 5 dice, depending on the number of Simple Actions used to Take Aim.

I'm sure this is way off topic at this point; but can you pm me a link to the largest version of that that you have. I would very much like it.

Th upside down smiley? Its from the smiley menu here on the forum.

While characters need verisimilitude, playing Shadowrun requires suspending disbelief in a few areas. One is that skills only increase - there are no rules for maintaining a skill, or for skill degredation. The other is that skills are, for the purposes of simplicity, all treated the same when it comes to training time. Becoming a marksman takes great dedication and practice, but it would take a lot more practice to be an expert at, say, the longbow. It would take even more training and learning to become a master hacker. In Shadowrun, though, they all take the same length of time to improve.

I think that sometimes tests do not directly test the skill, but do so in an indirect manner.

For example, a trainee is given minimal supplies and gear and told to get from point A to point B within a set time limit. Sure the skill being tested is Survival and they want to have a minimum of rating 3 but maybe the guy is really Athletic and is big and strong, he gets lucky on his first Survival check and makes very good time. Instead of going around obstacles, which would test his Survival skills, he simply climbs over them/swims across/etc. So by the letter of the test, he has passed. But not in its spirit.

So, you're indirectly adding dice, adding a spotter, and giving them time to aim? To pass the cold bore test, you don't get a spotter, you're on a time limit, and I haven't even brought up the issues of cover or a moving target (Both of which are part of the test). Depending on what those are, that might easily drop your dice pool to zero.

And remember, the cold bore test is one of the first tests you have to pass. In order to move on, to get to training with a scope, you have to be an expert shot without it. The tests just get harder from there. And this is at Fort Benning, the equivalent of basic training for snipers. There are schools that are even more hard core, if you can't pass Fort Benning, it's sure as hell that you can't make it on a real special forces team.

Think about it. Fort Benning graduates between five and six hundred snipers a year. Which really isn't that many, but it's obvious that there's far more snipers than there are special forces teams. That means a special forces sniper has to shoot well above the minimum they needed to graduate. Considering your numbers postulate someone who can barely pass one of the entrance exams, it's clear that your numbers simply do not add up.

30 Seconds is a LONG time for your cold bore test. In Game, it is even LONGER due to the way the mechanics work.

As for indirectly adding dice... Hawkeye does not add dice, it eliminates a penalty, that is NOT the same thing. And pretty much every Sniper I ever knew would have it. Most STA (Surveillance, Target Acquisition) Marines would have it too.

In game, that 100 meters you seem to be so proud of is a simple 4 turns of movement with no pushing it. You still have 6 whole turns to take a position, calm your breathing a bit (which has NO Mechanic to it at all), and Aim. Is it difficult in real life. Yes, Sort of, but as a Marine, I can tell you that at 100 Meters, it is not that much of a test (Seems about as difficult as the qualification requirements for STA training I took in the Corp, which required accuracy at much further ranges than that to qualify). Could I do it now, 25 years later? Probably... Maybe...

It is an Entrance exam, nothing more. Many of the Live Fire courses in the Marine Corps are far harder than that particular test. But, It gets harder from there, and the reason that Fort Benning graduates so few Snipers is because the Actual Training is far harder than the entrance exam. But then, that makes sense. Hell, I believe that Marine Sniper Training graduates even fewer than that (I have met more Army and SEAL Snipers than I have Marine Snipers).

That's because playing sniper takes the jar head away from rushing the hill, as it were

And anything removing the "Rushing the Hill" from the Jarhead mentality should be stomped on and eliminated. With Prejudice.
But, to be honest... Playing Sniper in the Corps was very enlightening.

The point is, 13 dice is not enough to reliably pass the Cold Bore test at 90%. When I first offered the numbers, I left out cover and movement modifiers, because those can vary. I also left out aiming, because you don't know how long you have. In order to make a fair example, I removed as many variables as possible. If you're lucky enough to draw a stationary target, in the open, with plenty of time to set up the shot, you'd have six dice before aiming, which could do it at 90%. But start adding in the variable modifiers, and that drops rapidly. (And don't complain that adding these isn't fair-- you know as well as I do that real combat isn't fair, and our soldiers train for real combat.) It's pretty clear that 13 dice isn't enough to reliably pass the test, at least not at 90% or better.

And like you said-- it's only an entrance exam, or at least a pop quiz. The other tests are a lot harder. That means, in order to reliably pass the tests in sniper basic, you need a lot more than 13 dice. Once you get out of basic, to make it onto a real special forces team, you're in competition with hundreds of other snipers, so you have to shoot even better than that. The test for special forces snipers vary from group to group, but I'm certain they're all a lot harder than the shots they make at Fort Benning.

And that is the crux of the issue with a dice system like this, whether we apply this to sniper or computer programming.

While the tables call a certain level professional or expert and some players may perform as such there, when we crunch the numbers the variable factor of the dice involved doesn't really matches up to what we can do consistently and repeatedly in RL.

Yes we can buy hits, but that is just not as satisfying though in many ways closer to RL performance.

Is there a better way to run the dice side? Dunno... All systems have their ups and downs and diceless becomes a total bog of situational modifiers.


Now on a lighter note, a letter to home.

Dear Ma & Pa:

Am well. Hope you are. Tell brother Walt & Brother Elmer the Marine Corps beats working for old man Minch by a mile. Tell them to join up quick before maybe all of the places are filled.

I was restless at first because you got to stay in bed till nearly 6 a.m., but am getting so I like to sleep late.

Tell Walt & Elmer all you do before breakfast is smooth your cot and shine some things. No hogs to slop, feed to pitch, mash to mix, wood to split, fire to lay. Practically nothing. Men got to shave but it is not so bad, they git warm water.

Breakfast is strong on trimmings like fruit juice, cereal, eggs, bacon, etc..., but kind of weak on chops, potatoes, ham, steak, fried eggplant, pie, and other regular food. But tell Walt & Elmer you can always sit between two city boys that live on coffee. Their food plus yours holds you till noon, when you get fed again. It's no wonder these city boys can't walk much.

We go on "route" marches, which the Platoon Sergeant says are long walks to harden us. If he thinks so, it is not my place to tell him different. A "route march" is about as far as to our mailbox at home.

Then the city guys gets sore feet and we all ride back in trucks. The country is nice, but awful flat.

The Sergeant is like a schoolteacher. He nags some. The Capt. is like the school board. Majors & Colonels just ride around & frown. They don't bother you none.

This next will kill Walt & Elmer with laughing. I keep getting medals for shooting. I don't know why. The bulls-eye is near as big as a chipmunk and don't move. And it ain't shooting at you, like the Higgett boys at home. All you got to do is lie there all comfortable and hit it. You don't even load your own cartridges. They come in boxes.

Be sure to tell Walt & Elmer to hurry & join before other fellers get into this setup & come stampeding in.

Your loving daughter,

Gail
P.S. Speaking of shooting, enclosed is $200 towards a new barn roof & ma's teeth. The city boys shoot craps, but not very good.

Funny bit is I think I was in tech school with this girl, or some kind of kin cause the above did sound like her.

No, Mr. Saturn with a Battle Axe.

PM me your email address and I'll send it to you. I made it myself.