Rule #1:


Consider this a peaceful cease and desist.

I think you just moderate the wrong thread. It's the 3rd edition one that turns to flaming.

Agreed. Especially if the rest of the team is a Free Spirit and a Shapeshifter, like the OP mentioned.

Why extracurricular? Runners have the tendency to generate a few cases of acute exitus here and there...


Another property of runners is that every member of the team might potentially backstab the others and make off with their stuff, or just sell them out to some company (or both, take their stuff and the bounty on their heads). So unless your characters are equally paranoid about every team member, justifying ghoul paranoia with a threat of betrayal does not work.

Redjack is spot on... See Posts 42-46... They are the posts that earned the Moderation comment.

Naah... There is betrayal, and then there is Being served up for Lunch. One does not [quite] equal the other.

Sure, because being served for lunch means you are not alive to be renditioned to Aztlan...

I do not see a failed run and capture as equal to being eaten by a Ghoul. *shrug*
And yes, I have played out such scenarios in the past. Capture does not equal death.

Why does every thread featuring Infected quickly get turned into a platform for hate speech against them? Vampires require 1 Essence once a month, Nosferatu once every 6 months. So on a run, this will never become relevant.

In all honesty, the whole Infected betraying/eating team members is a huge strawman used by the Anti Infected crowd that think playing Infected is BadWrongFun. If Infected were an ethnicity, those guys would be committing hate crimes

Because in the eyes of many players and GMs, myself included, ever allowing Infected into the game in any position other than an antagonist was a major mistake in the first place.

That's the thing you have to get your head around. They aren't an ethnicity. They're walking corpses of HMHVV victims without the common courtesy to lie down.

Beyond that, they're a mechanics problem in that infection is an easy route to power if you assume your GM isn't just going to let your character die when he contracts it, as is statistically likely per the worldbuilding.

Not to mention that if playing that kind of special snowflake's someone's thing, they can go play twentyfive plus years of Vampire : The Gothening and keep from tracking the stench of whiny undead into another perfectly good game.

Agreed.


Stop it with the emasculating of anyone who likes Infected. Playing a smart monster is not a "special snowflake" - it's a f-kin monster who knows how to not get caught. Stop attacking people who figured out how to do something before you did.

That said, I've had Infected in my games. Rarely are they more insanely powerful than or do they steal the spotlight from the rest of the group. Hell, when I was playing my nosferatu blood mage, walking around with twice the Magic rating of the other mage in the group, I wasn't overtly overpowered and a threat to game balance. I instead focused on being drone support and a centralized TacNet.

The character itself doesn't matter as much as the way it's played. I can have an orc sammy who's a complete dickturd to the group, or with the exact same stats be one who is a great source of insight into certain machinations of underground syndicates and a competent emergency medic at the same time, a valuable asset. It's not the stats or the race/archetype options, it's the focus that they're given, and the intent of the player.

EDIT: But hey, some people can't [REDACTED IN VIOLATION OF TERMS AND SERVICES].

Too soon?

Can someone explains me why overreacting about what people does in their own campaign?


In mine Harlequin has a love affair with Ghostwalker. Ghostwalker loves his beautifull elf body. Who trully cares?

It is not that the character is played well, and therefore does not impact the game or other players (intent often bends to necessity or whim). It is that the character, when push comes to shove, can, in the blink of an eye, turn on everyone and there is absolutely nothing they can do about it. THAT is what irritates people about Infected (and your particular Blood Mage Nosferatu in particular, if he were at our table). If you have TWICE the magic rating of the mage (which would put the Nosferatu at a Magic 14 at our table, though I remember you saying he could go to 18 or so), then there is really nothing he can do to you that you do not allow (and the same goes for pretty much any other character as well). THAT is the problem. There is absolutely no parity whatsoever there. It has gone from making good choices to minimize exposure to your other teammates to just being capable of overpowering them on a whim, regardless of their wishes. Many people do not like that situation at all.

That being said - It might force other characters to Adapt and Overcome (or at least die trying). Semper Fi.

I have to ask the Infected haters a question.

I get that you might be opposed to having PC Infected, based on fluff reasons. People fear them, and Runners are people too. Hence they fear the Infected, and thus are reluctant to work along side one. Not much different from some people in the game being opposed to/affraid of Technomancers, and unwilling to work with them. It's fluff. I get that.

But here's what I don't get. What the heck is it that supposedly makes Infected Characters overpowered from a game mechanic perspective??? I don't get it. Much of the stuff the infected can do, is something that a Mage could potentially do as well. They get some stat bonusses, but I find it hard to believe that this should be the cause either, because most of these bonusses can easily be equaled by 'Ware or other forms of bonusses. The character can drain Essence, but the rules for doing it insure that it won't be happening during combat. You might be able to turn into Mist Form, but A) you can do that with a spell as well, and B) all that does for you as a PC, is let you run away from all of your gear, leaving you butt naked, when you reform. Useful in a very limited set of circumstances, but not very often, and certainly not overpowered. You can burn Essence, in order to temporarily boost an attribute, but is that really an issue? You can do the same with an "Increase [Attribute]" spell and some forms of drug. I get that you can use this boost to increase you Magic rating. This brings some advantages, if the Infected is a Mage, and possibly an Adept, depending on how the GM rule you can use temporary Magic rating increases to power Adept Powers you don't otherwise have. But even if you are an Infected Mage with, let's say Magic 12. Is it really that much more useful than Magic 6, when it comes down to it? You still have to resist Drain for the spells you cast, and your Magic don't enter into that (besides determining whether you take Stun of Physical damage from the Drain). You can get Regeneration, which is damn useful, but I refuse to believe that all the fuss is caused by that one power alone. And I refuse to believe that Enhanced Senses that can pretty much be equaled with Ware or Spells, can be the reason for the hate either.

Also, add into the mix that the Infected come with a variety of weaknesses that in some cases constitute actual hindrences in the game, and I REALLY stop being able to see the problems with the Infected, beyond the possible Fluff aspect.

Anyone care to explain to me what makes Infected overpowered?

Personally, I dislike the Infected in games except as enemies. I think that offering them as PC options removes some of the fear that should come along with the risk of infection. There is a reason people are terrified of Ghouls, and why teams should either run or give it everything they've got to keep the ghouls from closing to any kind of melee range.

In SR3, infection as a ghoul brought just as many penalties as positives, and if you rolled poorly, could bring even more penalties. With a likely -3 Intelligence and Charisma, that meant that most people who caught it would end up at the Feral end of the spectrum, but it was within the realm of possibility that someone only got -1s and then you could have a creepy, smart ghoul.

SR4 did away with a lot of that and I think steered the mechanics away from the world building, because players don't want to play a feral ghoul with no self-control. That means that the options in the rulebook don't mesh with the lore.

The other problem I have with Infected as PCs is that there is no clear cut discussion of the cost of in game Infection. Latent Dracomorphosis specifically states that players have to pay the Karma cost. However in talking with players at conventions, most of them don't realize that a Ghoul or Vampire is a Positive Quality, which means that as soon as it is taken, you have a cost equal to 2xBP in karma. This means that any karma you've been saving for training, and all new karma earned is being immediately paid to the cost of your infection. 70 - 200 karma is a mighty large deterrent if it's actually applied, but I don't know if it is charged in many games.

Also, in-game Infection should have problems with your 'ware. It used to be that after Infection, all bioware was immediately lost as it was subsumed by the virus. Structural cyberware was okay (bone lacing etc.) but other implants required surgery and repair. After the Infection process was completed, you could get new bioware or implants, if you could find a surgeon willing to do it. Those rules aren't specifically stated in SR4 any more so again, the cost and risk of losing all that nuyen and benefit got taken away.

All that said, I've run games with Infected PCs. I generally suggest that they take the Infertile Infected quality or I watch carefully and make sure that they are taking the steps necessary to keep from infecting their own team.

They carry Plague.
They Eat People (to be fair, so did my Changeling Spideresque Character)
Weaknesses can be easily overcome with simple magic.
Stat Bonuses stack with racial Bonuses, which can THEN be augmented from there.
And the often mentioned Nosferatu that Neraph is so proud off can attain 3x Essence/Magic Rating over and above the Mage (I believe that a standard Vampire can go to 2x that value). Both with no Karma Expenditure whatsoever.
AND, as BishopMcQ indicated, there is likely no "cost" to having become infected in game, since those negatives have mostly been white-washed away in 4th Edition.

At start, an infected character can potentially so far outstrip a "normal" character that it is ludicrous. And the only thing that tends to keep them in check is the Player choosing to play nice, because if they so chose (and when push comes to shove, as it often does, I expect that nature to express itself), they could casually eliminate the entire team on a whim. They are Antagonists for a reason, much like Blood Mages, Toxics and Bug Shaman. There are reasons the latter are not recommended for play, and I extend this to all infected as well.

That said, you can make a compelling Infected character. I would allow an infected character in a single (or two) player game, most likely (again, it could make for a very compelling story), but not for a game that has the standard 4+ players.

Ask yourself what the difference is between a Magic 12 pornomancer and a Magic 6 one when it comes to the ability of anything in game to resist their spells. That should help you put your head around it.

My objection to them is more based on the game setting and party dynamincs, though. Shadowrun is hard enough to run peacefully without players running literal antagonists as PCs.

Edit : Tymeaus, have you read the Essence Drain power for 5e from Street Grimoire yet? It got worse, there's no cap anymore. *shudders*

I have not looked into the Essence Drain Power for 5th yet. No Cap? Really?
Not really surprised, though. *sigh*

I have to share this. Mods, edit it if it's not kosher. Regular Essence Drain caps at x2, but that isn't what most of the nasty antagonists have anymore. Bugs, shedim, shadow spirits and the like now come with this :

I only run 3rd, so my perspective may be a little different, but I've run for shifters, ghouls, and other freaks in large and small parties.

I could see running something more powerful like a vampire (and could enjoy it), however I'd consider that under 'advanced GMing techniques' as well as 'advanced player techniques'. From the GM side, I'd need to bump up some of the other characters to help maintain some level of balance, but it's not undoable. Meanwhile, it does rely on the player not being a total asshat. I've had players I trust on that count, and some I don't. But if everyone is alright with it, I don't see an issue with it.

Yes, it does have the potential to fail explosively, and it also has the potential to end up with dead PCs (but if that's your worry, why are you running in the first place?) But that can be mitigated with some foresight, skill, and common courtesy between players.

Vampires can reach 11 Magic, Nosferatu can pull up to 14-ish at chargen, if built properly for it. For 12 hours at a time.

I'm not saying there aren't valid points (TJ especially makes some good ones), but the rabid Infected hate is something I just don't get.

mind you, getting magic so high involves burning off essence, which involves hunting more often and less cautiously... which is funny how everyone's throwing a fit over the cautious hunters who are extremely careful to not draw attention to themselves if they can avoid it, because by definition those are exactly the sort of infected that *can't* get ridiculous magic scores.

Generally, yes.

Honestly, I've never seen a Pornomancer build, so I'm not really sure what excately this type of character can do in the game. But in terms of resisting stuff done with Magic 6 vs. Magic 12, does it really make all that big a difference? I mean in practice for most characters. I'll admit that I'm a little rusty on some of the various rules, seeing as I haven't played SR since early June at this point, but let's just say that you need to 6 vs. 12 hits in order to resist. Sure, getting 12 hits will be bloody impossible. But if you were already failing 99% of the 6 hit resist attempts, does it really make all that big a difference? IMO not really. What does make a difference though, is the Drain damage. I don't really care if I could cast a F12 spell and only suffer Stun, or a F24 spell and suffer Physical damage. As a mage I do NOT want to have to make a Drain resist check against 6+ hits, so as a player, from a mechanical POW, the only time it really matters, if I can throw that much Force around, is if it's either a last desperate gamble on my part, or if I have to deal with some form of background count. Neither situation is one I care to give much thought to.

Not really sure I get your point about running SR peacefully. I get the fluff aspect of having people run with an Infected, but given how much other stuff we as players allow co-player characters to get away with in the name of party harmony/functionality, I don't find it to be a gigantic stretch to explain away. That's really just down to character description, background, and how the characters are being played.

If you assume teammates who have no problem with killing people (aka. nearly everybody) will sooner or later turn on you, hoping for an armed resue seems a little far-fetched...



HMHVV infected are very much alive

Who mentioned an Armed Recue? The character was written off by his team members. It was up to the character to extricate himself from the situation, which took some time and effort. During which I played another character. When the original character returned, he had undergone heavy cosmetic surgery and had an entirely new background - kept the secret for over a year before I let it slip. Ooops...




Indeed they are, which is why they are ludicrously infectious Plague Carriers, not undead.

The Pornomancer is an experimental SR4.5 build that could throw up to 52 dice for social tests. While I've never seen a full version in play, I have seen lesser versions completely overtake a game with 30+ social dice. Basically, with that many dice, they can eat any social penalty you throw at them, and still score critical successes-- so, not only can they mind control people, they do it with *style*. (I ran a version of it as an enemy NPC: a Leadermancer, with 32 Leadership dice and Commanding Voice. Even with the penalties for repeated use, they could not touch him. By unanimous player vote, Commanding Voice was vetoed at my table from then on.)

The problem isn't in having an Infected character. They take more work, sure, but if done right they can be very fun. The problem is munchkins trying to get infected for the free stat boost. With an already min/maxed build, that could easily push a character over the top.

Like I said, Fluff. I get that. It's a roleplaying aspect.


Some of them yes. But that requires that you actually have access to the magic in question. Not every Infected is a Mage you know


Yes, theoretically speaking you can get a couple of extra dice out of their stats. But frankly, even if you get 2 extra dice on top of the racial modification you already have, and if you can them increase the theoretical max. by an additional point or two, does it really seriously make for all that big of a difference in practical terms? IMO no. 1-3 extra dice are unlikely to get you more than 1 extra hit anyway. And I'm sorry, but that's not really gamebreaking.

Yes, an Infected character can raise their Magic attribute temporarily. If they've drained Essence within the last hour, they can funnel some or all of that stolen Essence into a single stat, and raise it by 1 for every 2 points of Essence spent in that way. Depending on the situation and character, how often the PC will have such newly stolen life force available to channel into a stat, can probably vary wildly. And frankly, how often do you seriously WANT to cast a F12+ spell, given that you'll likely be looking at 6+ hits worth of Drain? In my case, not very often, if I have a choice.

Arguably you are wrong on the No Karma Expenditure. Because you still have to pay off the cost of the infected quality, either during character creation, or during the game. 150BP or 300Karma in-game (before you can spend Karma on anything else that is!), in order to play a Nosferatu? Rather a steep price, if you ask me. Do you really think your team mates are going to be all that far behind the curve you're drawing? Personally I doubt it somewhat. I'll grant that there are probably some people out there, that forget about the fact that you have to pay off the Karma/BP cost, when you become Infected, but that's ignoring the rules, so let's not base the debate on something that's blatently wrong.


I would argue that the Karma or BP cost alone is pretty substantial, and I would also argue that even if you can deal with some of the weaknesses that come with being an Infected by magic or tech, the fluff impact ought to be pretty impressive as well. Did you say walking bounty in some places? Plague carrier? Monster? Even though your team mates might be willing to accept your condition, that doesn't mean that very many other people will extend you the same curtesy.


Honestly, I disagree with you on the matter of being able to far outstrip their team mates from character creation. Maybe if you are using Karma Gen. (don't recall how the "racial" cost works under Karma Build), but if you are using BP, your Infected will start off being a fair number of BP behind. Yes, you can get a Ghoul for 35BP, but is it really worth that? A Banshee comes in at 65BP, a Vampire at 100BP, and the Nosferatu at 150BP. In a 400BP standard starting game, that's a rather serious amount of points you are spending on that "template", in comparison to what else you might have been able to get for that amount of points. And you still have to deal with the fluff aspects of being Infected, which could make life...interesting.


/Kyrel

Again, it's not as big a deal at character creation. The problem is when it happens in-game, and becomes an effectively free stat gain.

Munchkinism is ALWAYS a problem, unless everyone is doing it, in which case it just becomes silly. It is, however, IMO a player problem, and not a rule or balance problem.

As a GM, all players will get the message up front that I want to see characters that make sense, from a fluff and background perspective, and I have absolutely zero tolerance for rules/strange synergy abuse.

Re-read that and think about your examples again. You didn't get your examples right. Also, please remember that you don't actually lose the Essence from Essence Drain until after the 12 hours are up.

So in actuality, it looks like this:

Vampire with Magic 4.
Drains Essence to get to 12 Essence.
Spends (for argument's sake) 10 Essence to boost Magic temporarily to 9 (4 + 5 = 9) for 12 hours.
Vampire still has 12 Essence until the 12 hours expire, after which his Essence drops to 7 and his Magic returns to its unaugmented 4.

Here's another example:
Vampire with Magic 5.
Drains Essence to get to 12.
Spends 12 Essence to boost Magic temporarily to 11 (5 + 6 = 11) for 12 hours.
Vampire still has 12 Essence until the 12 hours expire, after which his Essence drops to 6 and his Magic returns to its unaugmented 5.

The clause on Magic Rating and Essence is only important for Special Infected that wish to naturally raise their Magic ratings above 6. Using the second example I listed, if that vampire's Magic was 8 before his boost, then he'd have a temporary Magic rating of 14 (which is fine because it isn't a permanent Magic rating, so the clause you're looking at isn't applicable), but after those 12 hours lapse his Essence drops to a 6, in which case he loses 2 points of Magic unless he is a Grade II Initiate.

Grok?

True. But it also freezes the character's development for quite a while, after which the rest of the group will likely have either caught up, or more likely surpassed the Infected. And again. Even a Munchkin have to deal with the Fluff consequences of becoming an Infected. Anyone say "Noteriety" and "Hung Out To Dry" for starters, followed by people trying to kill you on sight, and major penalties to all types of social rolls, where you are not trying to intimidate people, and whatever else a creative GM will come up with? Handled "right", Infection isn't a free statboost, even in the short run But I can see what you mean.

You mean breakfast, lunch, and dinner?

The problem solves itself.

It becomes a rule problem when the rules allow broken combinations.

At chargen, starting as a ghoul isn't a big deal. In SR3, I usually waived the roll, so players could start with non-feral ghouls. (I actually like characters who go against stereotype.) However, anyone who managed to get infected in-game would have to roll, and risk going feral (and losing their character). But in SR4.5, if you get infected in play, if you survive you get a ton of free bonuses. Nosferatu, for example, are theoretically worth 150 BP for all their benefits; if someone becomes one in play, they effectively gained 150 BP f free points.

It doesn't necessarily "suppress" their advancement; there isn't a clear rule that says they stop earning karma, although certainly a GM could read it that way. As for the fluff consequences, any munchkin who would try this trick most likely wouldn't care. We're already talking "uncouth troll" territory before they become Infected.

Basically, I simply disallow anyone to become Infected after game starts. If you catch HMHVV, you die. Unfortunately, the RAW in 4.5 is very clear about how you can survive and become Infected, which irritates me greatly.

As I recall interpreting the rules when I read them (can't find them just now), they basically say that any Karma you earn up until the point where you've paid for the Infected type, goes into paying that cost off, meaning that if you turn into a Vampire during the game, you don't get to spend Karma on anything else, until you've sunk 200 karma into paying off the Vampire state.

Again... the 70 points of Karma required to pay off Ghoul is more than made up in the acquisition of Stat Boosts (13 points worth - 11 Attributes and 2 Initiative) and other benefits.

I seem to recall that it's optional; and even if it's not, I'm sure a munchkin would have some loophole ready to exploit. Better to avoid the problem entirely.

Well, getting out of Aztlan alive usually requires some sort of outside help...

The plague they carry is about as infectious as HIV (unless you cling to the erroneous "Contact" vector in RC)


And I think the real problem with infection ingame is that you get the bonus stats right away and can pay the price in increments after delivery.

There is a...trope (I think?) where a person who is infected wrestles with his nature (Joss Whedon's Angel becoming a hero instead of a monster and whatnot). This seems to be the time that you spend the karma paying for it. Just because you are not "feral" does not mean you wake up just knowing how to deal with it. Perhaps treat it as an addiction (psychological) in terms of resisting temptation during this time. The essence loss covers the physical part. But the overwhelming urge to feed is there all the time until karma is paid off.

Angel isn't a good example - he only became a hero after a gypsy witch gave him his soul back. A better example would have been the police girl from Hellsing.

Seras Victoria had trouble with the concept of even drinking donated blood, from a bowl, with a spoon. Now imagine how a newly minted Shadowrun vampire would feel about having to feed on the life force of a sentient being. It would be a big adjustment.

For Karma, I would make a player who sought out infection pay for it, but not someone who got it by accident or GM fiat. That's just being a dick. Besides, at character creation, you are making a character designed to be infected, with some new minimums to keep in mind. After character creation, you can have Attributes actually go down, and some character concepts can suffer. A high-Charisma elven adept face might be annoyed when she loses a point of Magic and two points of Charisma, and faces the possible loss of another point of Magic, and some resources and/or favors, if she opts for cybereyes and some major cosmetic mods to look "normal" again. In addition to being permanently astrally active. I imagine if you told the player, "By the way, you also need to pay 70 Karma for the ghoul quality," it would not go over well.

Also, note that SR vampires need to drink blood to live (a lot of blood). They also need to consume Essence at least one point a month or die as well.

"Angel isn't a good example - he only became a hero after a gypsy witch gave him his soul back. A better example would have been the police girl from Hellsing."

Fair enough. Did not see the whole series. It was just the first non sparkly vampire that came to mind.

Now, he's a great example of an atypical vampire. I love Angel/Buffy (still watch them), but the lore in that series is that Vampires are soul-less, therefore evil. Angel is different because he got his soul back. In fact, a freakin-fantastic-amazing couple of episodes is from Buffy where Angel loses his soul again. Angel as Bad Angel is a frightening villain, and worthy of study.

Angel as a Muppet was also amusing.

NB: A lot of ink has been wasted on discussing exact definitions, but as a rule of thumb, a pet is sentient, a human is sapient (which includes sentience), a fly trap plant is neither (although it reacts to stimuli, that's merely a reflex with no thinking involved).

The description of Essence Drain refers to "characters and nonastral critters with the Sentience power". Given the reference to characters and that no power called "Sentience" exists, whereas "Sapience" does, this obviously means a vampire needs to drain sapient beings. On the plus side, the blood a vampire needs to consume for daily sustenance besides its Dietary Requirement can come from any source, there are no restrictions attached.


I'd also have the player's new powers grow slowly based on how much of the new quality he paid off. Vampires get 8 positive attributes and cost 200 Karma, so one attribute raised per 25 Karma paid off. Similar rule for the negative ones, and for the extra IP...maybe halfway through?

What if the player doesn't care about raising his Attributes when he would rather spend his Karma replacing the point of Magic he just lost by GM fiat? And why should the Attribute bonuses only come after they are paid for, when the disadvantages pop up right away? If something is not the player's idea, the player shouldn't have to pay for it. If I got turned into a vampire and told I had to pay for it, and not even get all of the benefits except piecemeal, I would just suicide that character and make another, if I didn't simply walk out of that game.

In all cases, to prevent front-loading power while putting off cost. Generally because the munchkin way is to front-load all those bonuses on the assumption that your playstyle is going to get the character killed long before it will ever have to pay off the costs in karma.

As far as the other bit, I'll go out on a limb here and state that a GM who infects a player's character against the player's will then makes them pay the karma costs of the edge is being a dick.

I was kind of assuming that. A player who deliberately sets out to get his character infected should pay for it, definitely. I wouldn't worry about front-loading, though. If the character does die before paying it off, then his munchkinism didn't really do him any good.